Those idiots screaming to stop hunting are no different than those potato heads who want to stop humans eating meat!

Of course, we are not giving much attention to the ones trying to stop us eating meat, because we won't.

But, city dwellers, who have no bloody clue how nature actually works, are supporting anything that is perceived as being not nice to Bambi!

And us?

Instead of telling them to go top hell, we are arguing on the methods of hunting.

We need to clean our own house first if we want to carry our argument forward; the point of discussion is to differentiate between "canned" and "captive bred" which are quite distinct between each other.

Agreed that the ignorant antis will still be negative towards the killing of "captive bred" lions which on the other hand are "free-ranging" on extensive tracts of land, albeit fenced but free ranging nevertheless, feeding according to their hunting instincts and breeding naturally.
Rhino are captive bred and not pen raised and they seem to be doing well as long as the poachers are kept at bay; lesser game are introduced on these extensive fenced farms and they too seem to adapt to their new environments and continue to maintain their natural lifestyles.

"Canned" as in pen-raised, hand fed, treated with steroids, etc. etc. and groomed to fit the "ultimate trophy" description should be seriously reconsidered and binned.
Like it or not, Canned Lion "hunts" will be the demise of lion hunting in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

We need to clean our own house first if we want to carry our argument forward . . .

Precisely. The whole notion that hunting ethics have no place in the conversation, that so long as something is legal regardless of whether it is repugnant we should look the other way, that we need to ignore questionable practices by fellow hunters and stand together . . . those are all arguments that will simply result ultimately in punative legislative and regulatory efforts regarding hunting practices.

First and foremost, the anti's do not need any ammo, they will just make stuff up. The saying in DC is tell a lie three times and it becomes the truth. That is what we are up against, and the quicker folks realize that and the faster we stop fighting each other over how to hunt, the faster we will be able to beat these folks into the ground. But we have no chance of that then all we do is fight with each other and the anti's just sit back and let their emery destroy themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

First and foremost, the anti's do not need any ammo . . .

. . . that's my point, so long as we condone activities like captive-bred lion hunts we supply them with all the ammo they need . . . they don't have to make up a damn thing.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

First and foremost, the anti's do not need any ammo . . .

. . . that's my point, so long as we condone activities like captive-bred lion hunts we supply them with all the ammo they need . . . they don't have to make up a damn thing.

I tell you what!

I will be more than happy to stand against captive lion breeding for hunting, IF that will stop the bloody loonies getting involved in our sport.

But you know as well as I do, that is never going to happen.

So I tell them to take a bloody hike.

Many of us find this not very appetizing, but it is going to be a very cold day in hell before I side with the PETA brigade.

Individuals can hunt any way they wish, as long as it is legal in that country.

I honestly have no idea what has gone wrong with the world today.

It seems everyone and his dog is objecting to something others do.

Have they not got any life of their own??

There are a lot of activities I have no desire to participate in. Others I actually find repulsive.

But I don't waste my time trying to stop those who enjoy them.

Problem is that turning a blind eye to activities that while legal are ethically or otherwise repugnant does impact all hunters . . . such activities result in legislative or regulatory actions that apply to everyone not just those that were engaging in the questionable activity.

I guess I can't resist putting my $0.02 in on this.

While I can appreciate that most real hunters want nothing to do with a walk up and shoot one experience on something like lion, as has been shown by the market, there is apparently a market for it.

Firstly, I had thought that in the popular lexicon, canned and captive bred were synonymous, apparently they are not, at least not here.

I think we can agree that a lion that has lived by catching its own prey for enough time that it is living life as a wild animal is a better experience than the just turned loose cat that while it may not be sedated, still doesn't know the land well and doesn't associate the cruiser with anything other than free meat.

Having said that, these cats are livestock. That is my arguement to the folks that complain about it. The game ranch cat has a better chance of avoiding its fate at any given time than cattle, hogs, or sheep. Even sedated, the hunter might miss, etc. The slaughterhouse animal is meat for the machine the second he's placed in the herd. Thus, ethically there is no difference, and frankly I would consider death by bullet as humane as any slaughter method currently used...if done right it is minimally painful and quick, like pneumatic hammers, etc. if not it's miserable like the above as well. At least the pen hunted animal got a chance to have some freedom before being shot.

I think the whole business of no positive impact on wild populations is also a bit myopic. Having a resivoir of animals is a positive. I was told by one of the game officers in the eastern cape that farm raised lion were used at one time to repopulate Kruger after a disease outbreak. While the shooting of individual captive lion may have no immediate impact on the current population of wild lion, the simple existence of a large biodiverse population of the species that has a commercial value is an incredible hedge against extinction.

The fact that a person will pay to kill the lion, and keep the hide, that another wants the meat, and that there is a market for the bone shows efficient utilization, not some source of bloodthirsty perversion.

It also should be pointed out how the listener demands that dangerous animals be kept away from them...but that they expect African villagers need to put up with that risk.

I agree that PHASA going against captive raised hunting does little to help hunting; a better route would be to try and set acceptable standards rather than claiming it does no good. While it may not be popular to defend "canned" shooting, it should be defended as economically and morally reasonable, even if some parts of the practice may be distasteful to many. The moderate public can understand the hypocracy in wearing leather while condemning use of a lion skin rug. Yes, giving the cat a better shot of escape will make it less objectionable to many, but nevertheless, they need to be reminded it is an agricultural good, not a Disney character. It should also be pointed out that this is an incremental agenda by a biased minority and that what they are seeing in HSUS ads is a manipulated message.

I admit I did not hunt any canned cats, and really have little interest in it, but I definitely see the slippery slope here and think giving up on one makes it harder to draw the line elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Problem is that turning a blind eye to activities that while legal are ethically or otherwise repugnant does impact all hunters . . . such activities result in legislative or regulatory actions that apply to everyone not just those that were engaging in the questionable activity.

What gives an individual the right to think that what he thinks is unethical is wrong for others to do?

Lots of nuts are calling for both Jews and Muslims to stop slaughtering animals as their respective religion dictates.

Do we listen to them??

The Jews and Muslims have no ethics if they are following their religious beliefs??

Yesterday in one of the various workshops at the PHASA AGM SCI and The Wildsheep foundation gave PHASA a huge thumbs up on their position on captive bred Lions. It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

We keep saying there is a lot of difference between captive lion breeding and canned lion hunting.

Now it seems everyone has gravitated to the idea that all farm bred lions should be eliminated.

Wonderful, isn't it??

It is like saying to eliminate prostitution, one should ban women!!

Where is the bloody logic in this??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Problem is that turning a blind eye to activities that while legal are ethically or otherwise repugnant does impact all hunters . . . such activities result in legislative or regulatory actions that apply to everyone not just those that were engaging in the questionable activity.

What gives an individual the right to think that what he thinks is unethical is wrong for others to do?

I have repeated this quote many times, ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. Just because something is legal does not make it right. And, yes, everyone has their own moral compass, but that does not mean that we should all sit idly by if we feel something is unethical just because it is legal. The actions of hunters are judged in a broader context and by a broader audience than just hunters . . . now more than ever it is incumbent on hunters to speak out against questionable practices . . . regardless of legality. If we do not police ourselves, someone else will do it for us.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Problem is that turning a blind eye to activities that while legal are ethically or otherwise repugnant does impact all hunters . . . such activities result in legislative or regulatory actions that apply to everyone not just those that were engaging in the questionable activity.

What gives an individual the right to think that what he thinks is unethical is wrong for others to do?

I have repeated this quote many times, ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. Just because something is legal does not make it right. And, yes, everyone has their own moral compass, but that does not mean that we should all sit idly by if we feel something is unethical just because it is legal. The actions of hunters are judged in a broader context and by a broader audience than just hunters . . . now more than ever it is incumbent on hunters to speak out against questionable practices . . . regardless of legality. If we do not police ourselves, someone else will do it for us.

That is the truth. If we do not police ourselves, others will, that others is the general public who will ultimately have the say. At the moment the anti's are spreading their message among the general public. They get the ear of the public.

We will never be able to change a anti, but we can change the perception that the general public have about hunting. I have personally changed the view of many of the general public by explaining the need for hunting and they do understand, that will not make a hunter of him but he understands the need and purpose of hunting. What you will not convince the general public of is that the shooting of a captive bred bred Lion is morally and/or ethically defendable.

I'm not for banning anything, but surely we can do better than releasing a lion 4 days before the hunter arrives...at some point we cross the line from personal freedom into absurdity...are we not going to even try? Hell, lets just tie all our quarry to the nearest tree the day before we get our rich, fat asses off the plane, have the "PH" drive us to within 20 yards, shoot and slap each other on the back for a job well done. I mean to hell with the antis and general public if they don't understand "hunting"

Personally...I cannot believe any 'hunter' would want to do it. Killing is anti-climatic for me. I am all about the hunt.

That said...hunters are a minority and need to find a way to stand together and not alienate. The politics of hunting is about addition...not subtraction.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Personally...I cannot believe any 'hunter' would want to do it. Killing is anti-climatic for me. I am all about the hunt.

That said...hunters are a minority and need to find a way to stand together and not alienate. The politics of hunting is about addition...not subtraction.

I find it hard if not impossible to stand-up for someone who would shoot a lion in this manner. I'm loyal, but that's REALLY pushing it.

I don't think a single person on the thread condones a canned hunt. This thread however, is about Captive bred Lions.

Everyone is focusing on the bad apples regarding drugged lions, short release time etc. but not a single person has mentioned the success stories.

There are actually few wild, managed Lion hunting areas South Africa, such as the one we use, where Captive Bred Lions gets released into a free roam environment. The Lions are expected to hunt for themselves, and does. They have even bred, and cubs have been born.
To me, that pretty much ends the discussion about whether they can survive in the wild after being reintroduced, and closer to the model that everyone should be aiming towards.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
I don't think a single person on the thread condones a canned hunt. This thread however, is about Captive bred Lions.

Everyone is focusing on the bad apples regarding drugged lions, short release time etc. but not a single person has mentioned the success stories.

There are actually few wild, managed Lion hunting areas South Africa, such as the one we use, where Captive Bred Lions gets released into a free roam environment. The Lions are expected to hunt for themselves, and does. They have even bred, and cubs have been born.
To me, that pretty much ends the discussion about whether they can survive in the wild after being reintroduced, and closer to the model that everyone should be aiming towards.

So be specific, how long is the release period and how large is the free roam environment?

Mike,
Please be aware that it is free roam, not free range. The area is roughly 10,000 acres. The last lion we hunted there, had been there for 1year and 1 week.

Thanks. Curious, how many lions are on the property at any one point in time relative to the annual quota? In other words, are there ten lions on the property and ten are taken annually or are there twenty lions on the property and ten are taken annually (where the total population accretes year over year).

There can be up to 30 lions on the property. The pride will be supplemented during the year.

Some don't get hunted, and they will be there the following year, so actually gets chance to breed. I know because we had to stay clear of one of the Lionesses with cubs this year.

Sounds like an admirable model Marius. As I have said above, I have no problem defending the practice of sustainable yield hunting. Unfortunately the great majority of captive-bred lion operations are closer to the put and take model. What do you think the reaction would be in the captive-bred lion hunting community to a proposal that the release period be extended to a minimum of one year, that the minimum acreage requirement be at least 10,000 acres and that the quotas be set in such a manner that the pride levels were sustainable year over year? Just a guess, but I would be surprised if such a proposal was embraced with open arms.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sounds like an admirable model Marius. As I have said above, I have no problem defending the practice of sustainable yield hunting. Unfortunately the great majority of captive-bred lion operations are closer to the put and take model. What do you think the reaction would be in the captive-bred lion hunting community to a proposal that the release period be extended to a minimum of one year, that the minimum acreage requirement be at least 10,000 acres and that the quotas be set in such a manner that the pride levels were sustainable year over year? Just a guess, but I would be surprised if such a proposal was embraced with open arms.

Mike, I would be all for it, but not entirely sure if the economics can work. I am not a breeder, only an outfitter, so dont have the answer to that.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
There can be up to 30 lions on the property. The pride will be supplemented during the year.

Some don't get hunted, and they will be there the following year, so actually gets chance to breed. I know because we had to stay clear of one of the Lionesses with cubs this year.

So there can be up to 30 lions that are self-feeding by killing game. The area is roughly 15-16 square miles in size. That must be a rough deal for keeping the game herds viable. Are they buying and trucking in other ungulates to supplement the large number that many lions would eat?

I have a hard time imagining that the resident breeding herds of plains game can sustain that level of predation by that many lions for long........... maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me they would all have to breed like rabbits for that side of the coin to be self-sustaining? Can't imagine it would allow a lot of the plains game males to reach a "shootable" size either.

Heck I have lived in places where local male mountain lions that were collared and tracked by biologists, were killing two to three deer or sheep per week. Thirty lions....... even if 25% of that number were cubs, would go through a lot of animals in one year.

My son work as an ecologist on a 10 000ha game reserve. The Lions are kept on a separate 2 000 ha reserve. There are a hell of a lot of Impala ( I have never seen so many Impala in 1 place) on that area and about 15 Rhinos. They off load about 30 Blue wilde beest every 3 months for the Lion to feed on. There are 6 Lions in the area. Work out the cost

It is pretty clear why these hunts are done the way they are . . . minimize the release period to (1) minimize the cost of keeping the lion fed before it is shot, (2) minimize the potential that anything happens to the lion destroying or lessening its value, and (3) minimize the opportunity for the lion to wander off making it more difficult to find or potentially lessening the shooter's opportunity for success in a relatively short time frame. This practice is not about sustainable lion populations, lion conservation or anything else of the sort . . . hence the reason groups like PHASA are finally coming out opposed to the practice.

quote:

It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

Jaco: This would be an incorrect statement.
I believe they members of PHASA will be voting on this issue tomorrow, probably won't be pretty.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

Jaco: This would be an incorrect statement.
I believe they members of PHASA will be voting on this issue tomorrow, probably won't be pretty.

Refer to the joint letter to PHASA last year that was co signed by DSC.

450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

Im not saying it doesn't exist..but show me a place where a whitetail is released 4 days before the hunter arrives. I could be wrong, but from what I understand about fenced whitetail hunts, the deer live in the hunting area year around and are just feed "super food" to grow big racks... otherwise the deer live amongst the herd like any other wild deer.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

Jaco: This would be an incorrect statement.
I believe they members of PHASA will be voting on this issue tomorrow, probably won't be pretty.

. . . assuming that is the case Karl, DSC should not be proud of their position.

So what is the difference between captive boar hunting and captive lion hunting? Don't tell me that we shoot boar because we want to eat the meat.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

Jaco: This would be an incorrect statement.
I believe they members of PHASA will be voting on this issue tomorrow, probably won't be pretty.

. . . assuming that is the case Karl, DSC should not be proud of their position.

I heard even SCI has taken a position. I heard SCI made the following statement for the hunting of all animals in a high fence setting, "SCI opposes the hunting of all animals bred in captivity unless the hunting operator, or an association of hunting operators, can demonstrates that the hunting meets SCI's fair chase standards."

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

Im not saying it doesn't exist..but show me a place where a whitetail is released 4 days before the hunter arrives. I could be wrong, but from what I understand about fenced whitetail hunts, the deer live in the hunting area year around and are just feed "super food" to grow big racks... otherwise the deer live amongst the herd like any other wild deer.

In Texas, some of the "Super Deer" and raised on "Deer Farms" sold to the rancher before deer season, and let loose behind the high fence. The "Super Deer" is used to being fed and will show up for the corn on the ground like clockwork and the hunter pays for the deer by the inch. What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

Im not saying it doesn't exist..but show me a place where a whitetail is released 4 days before the hunter arrives. I could be wrong, but from what I understand about fenced whitetail hunts, the deer live in the hunting area year around and are just feed "super food" to grow big racks... otherwise the deer live amongst the herd like any other wild deer.

In Texas, some of the "Super Deer" and raised on "Deer Farms" sold to the rancher before deer season, and let loose behind the high fence. The "Super Deer" is used to being fed and will show up for the corn on the ground like clockwork and the hunter pays for the deer by the inch. What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

You're right, both practices suck. But that deer is not generally hunted within hours or days of being released.

quote:

What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

The way you have put it indicates there is no difference between one and the other though realistically its like comparing apples to oranges.

When a Lion is on the receiving it is being killed for pleasure, no more, no less, sending the anti-hunting psychos into overdrive and to kill one which has been pen raised and hand fed from birth to execution date will hardly convince anyone that it is ethical - screw the legal BS story, it just doesn't sell.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:

quote:

It might be added that DSC also endorse PHASA's stand on captive bred Lions.

Jaco: This would be an incorrect statement.
I believe they members of PHASA will be voting on this issue tomorrow, probably won't be pretty.

. . . assuming that is the case Karl, DSC should not be proud of their position.

I heard even SCI has taken a position. I heard SCI made the following statement for the hunting of all animals in a high fence setting, "SCI opposes the hunting of all animals bred in captivity unless the hunting operator, or an association of hunting operators, can demonstrates that the hunting meets SCI's fair chase standards."

Hahaha!

SCI getting involved in ETHICS??

The mind BOGGLES!

Aren't the ones who forget what ethics are as long as MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS??

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

Im not saying it doesn't exist..but show me a place where a whitetail is released 4 days before the hunter arrives. I could be wrong, but from what I understand about fenced whitetail hunts, the deer live in the hunting area year around and are just feed "super food" to grow big racks... otherwise the deer live amongst the herd like any other wild deer.

In Texas, some of the "Super Deer" and raised on "Deer Farms" sold to the rancher before deer season, and let loose behind the high fence. The "Super Deer" is used to being fed and will show up for the corn on the ground like clockwork and the hunter pays for the deer by the inch. What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

You're right, both practices suck. But that deer is not generally hunted within hours or days of being released.

Well your right its not hours but 30 days. Not much time to me. Think that whitetail, is now wild?

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

The way you have put it indicates there is no difference between one and the other though realistically its like comparing apples to oranges.

When a Lion is on the receiving it is being killed for pleasure, no more, no less, sending the anti-hunting psychos into overdrive and to kill one which has been pen raised and hand fed from birth to execution date will hardly convince anyone that it is ethical - screw the legal BS story, it just doesn't sell.

Well, both are hunt to put a trophy on the wall, both are eaten, both are human fed, both are pen raised, both legal. Other then two different species, looks like an apples to apples to me. The only difference is currently, the anti's have their panties in a wad over the cat. When they are finished the cat, whats next, your deer? Get ready.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
450/400 everybody always goes on about a lion why dont you guys condem stags that are raised whitetail, birds for hunting it is always lions and fence hunts in south africa?? the court today sided with the suspended members against phasa with cost.

Im not saying it doesn't exist..but show me a place where a whitetail is released 4 days before the hunter arrives. I could be wrong, but from what I understand about fenced whitetail hunts, the deer live in the hunting area year around and are just feed "super food" to grow big racks... otherwise the deer live amongst the herd like any other wild deer.

In Texas, some of the "Super Deer" and raised on "Deer Farms" sold to the rancher before deer season, and let loose behind the high fence. The "Super Deer" is used to being fed and will show up for the corn on the ground like clockwork and the hunter pays for the deer by the inch. What's the difference besides ones a deer and the other is a cat.

You're right, both practices suck. But that deer is not generally hunted within hours or days of being released.

Well your right its not hours but 30 days. Not much time to me. Think that whitetail, is now wild?

No. Are you saying the ethics of such deer hunts are questionable? No disagreement here.