quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:


Just busting' balls a little.

No worries...it's all good!

Almost sounds like some of you have watched "The Lion King" one too man times.

Some guys are happy to shoot an animal anyway possible. Captive bred lion, kudu, aoudad, blackbuck, whitetail or whatever. Lions get held in a higher regard than a whitetail, but at the end of the day it is the same concept - a high priced head of livestock.

Is this everyone's cup of tea? Heck no, but some guys aren't concerned about an experience, they want an animal for their wall. Look at the thread in the hunt reports about the elephant that didn't have tusks weighing what the client wanted. Great experience, but trophy wasn't "as expected" so client had a terrible time.

These animals are meat eating, black maned, regal cows. They don't help the population, they don't hurt it. They're literally like an animal at the zoo, except someone shoots them versus they die of old age. End of the day, the lion at the zoo and the lion in the pen to be shot are just numbers, not a population.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:

Some guys are happy to shoot an animal anyway possible.

. . . sort of sad isn't it.

Brings to mind the quote, one does not hunt to kill, to the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:

Some guys are happy to shoot an animal anyway possible.

. . . sort of sad isn't it.

Yes. And it is a symbolic interactionist's wet dream.

Just a little bit of feedback on the original Post about the High Court Application. Members vs PHASA (NOT SAPA vs PHASA)

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Kindly take notice that Werksmans capitulated their client’s opposition after the court disposed of the urgency portion of the proceedings and was the following order granted/consented to :-

1.That the membership of the Applicants be immediately reinstated in the First Respondent pending any disciplinary proceedings which the First Respondent might elect to institute against one or more of the Applicants;

2.That such disciplinary proceedings be dealt with in terms of the provisions and procedures more specifically prescribed in Constitution of the First Respondent as well as Clause 2.1; 2.2; 2.3; 2.4; 2.5; 2.6; 2.7; 2.8 and 2.9 of the By-Laws of the First Respondent;

3. PHASA is to pay the costs of the application.
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After that the AGM happened and all members could vote and take part in the Democratic system.

The Lion decision was NOT overturned, there where not even an attempt to overturn the position as was speculated in the media,
The PHASA lion position stands, but member on the floor voted in a working comity including all interested parties including PHASA, SAPA, WRSA etc to investigate the ways CBL can be improved or made more acceptable which i believe is a huge step forward.

What i came to realise over this last couple of weeks is that we as hunters completely under estimates the ARA and how cunning they are, reading this thread you can see it, they have succeeded in creating “ANTI-Hunting Hunters”, these are the types who end up feeling so guilty they are hunters that they start fighting against legal forms of hunting.

The second thing they have achieved is to mislead(Confusing) people into a type of language that supports their argument, the best example is the term “canned hunting”, by using this term you are referring to an Illegal practice because “canned hunting” is illegal and not allowed so any individual supporting it or partaking in it supports a criminal activity, there are other criminal activities that does not get confused with hunting, like poaching animal abuse etc, but they succeeded in it so far that we are debating a criminal activity at some stages in this conversation.. “Canned Lion Hunting” is criminal.

The Third thing they have achieved is to take the extreme worst of CBL in the industry and made it out to be the standard and the so called expectable norm, this is one of their biggest victories as you can clearly read in this thread that there are those who have accepted that to be the reality, this is nothing more then a generalization that is sold as the popular narrative and is nothing less than the statement that Trump supporters are racists and deplorable, or in a closer example someone accusing every single individual on this group or thread of being a guns slinging bamby killer who chases around the country and shoot anything that moves from the back of a pickup because they can.. we all know that is not hunting, and i will even bet all of us takes objection to the generalization and that all of us feels offended by that type of generalization.

but for some reason many on this tread uses that exact same generalization to make their points and statements regarding CBL, some goes as far as to refuse to believe there is a good part to CBL, or there is a justifiable reason for it to exist,or that it can be done in a good and acceptable way.. and that is they ARA’s biggest achievement, division in the hunting ranks.

AND NO i am not a SAPA member, I have not hunted CBL lions before either.

But here is some interesting facts to play with, in all the years PHASA members hunted CBL lions, PHASA has not received a single complaint from a International Client about the practice or the way it was conducted, this is a question that was asked and that was the answer.

To make this a little bit more fun, the Editor of Hunting report did a presentation and after the presentation a member asked her how many complaints has Hunting Report received about CBL hunts, her answer was also NONE.

So i would urge every one to think about how the ARA’s propaganda machine has influenced your thinking, and for those who have asked questions or are now saying you have seen or experienced this BAD monster the ARA has created, think of the questions you have asked and the perception or mindset you where in because of the ARA propaganda once you started criticizing CBL or started doubting it.

The Editor of Hunting report said “Perception is Reality” and that is what the ARA has succeeded in doing, lets step back and let REALITY become reality again.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
The intensive captured breeding of game serves no purpose for conservation. It removes natural selection and the farmer manipulates the breeding program to breed animals with a certain characteristic. That is wrong, game is not domestic animals.

A while ago there was a lot said about golden wildebeest that was castrated and sold to be hunted, that was wrong how can the captive lion breeding then be ok.

The decision not to partake in the shooting of of captive bred Lions was taken by the members of PHASA not the EXCO of PHASA. The EXCO must do what the members decided.

There are 13 members of PHASA who was suspended due to the continued participation in this practice. The suspension of 3 members were lifted after they stated that they do not participate in the shooting of captive bred Lions. The 13 brought an application before the North Gauteng high court and PHASA opposed the application. I have a copy of the application and the opposing statement. Most members who brought the application before the court are also members of SAPA.

PHASA is definitely not against the culture of hunting, they are promoting ethical sustainable hunting done on the fair chase principle, to which I fully subscribe.

Most if not all intensive breeding programs supports only the owners greed which is detrimental to the conservation efforts.

Isn't most hunting in South Africa on farms?

Aren't these farms breeding animals specifically for hunting??

How much of hunting in South Africa is actually on open, wild land? No fences at all?

Like most deer hunting in Texas.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaco Human:
The intensive captured breeding of game serves no purpose for conservation. It removes natural selection and the farmer manipulates the breeding program to breed animals with a certain characteristic. That is wrong, game is not domestic animals.

A while ago there was a lot said about golden wildebeest that was castrated and sold to be hunted, that was wrong how can the captive lion breeding then be ok.

The decision not to partake in the shooting of of captive bred Lions was taken by the members of PHASA not the EXCO of PHASA. The EXCO must do what the members decided.

There are 13 members of PHASA who was suspended due to the continued participation in this practice. The suspension of 3 members were lifted after they stated that they do not participate in the shooting of captive bred Lions. The 13 brought an application before the North Gauteng high court and PHASA opposed the application. I have a copy of the application and the opposing statement. Most members who brought the application before the court are also members of SAPA.

PHASA is definitely not against the culture of hunting, they are promoting ethical sustainable hunting done on the fair chase principle, to which I fully subscribe.

Most if not all intensive breeding programs supports only the owners greed which is detrimental to the conservation efforts.

Isn't most hunting in South Africa on farms?

Aren't these farms breeding animals specifically for hunting??

How much of hunting in South Africa is actually on open, wild land? No fences at all?

Reading this makes my blood boil. Is this truly the perception of South African hunting?
First of all, the term "farm" originates from the fact that most of these pieces of land farmed with domestic animals like small stock,cattle etc. All pieces of land in SA, is thus called a farm. The term has zero to do with farming with animals to be hunted, but states the land.
Secondly, the animals on majority of private properties are self-sustaining herds, that live, breed and die by themselves.
That is the way it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by Marvel Africa Productions:

But here is some interesting facts to play with, in all the years PHASA members hunted CBL lions, PHASA has not received a single complaint from a International Client about the practice or the way it was conducted, this is a question that was asked and that was the answer.

To make this a little bit more fun, the Editor of Hunting report did a presentation and after the presentation a member asked her how many complaints has Hunting Report received about CBL hunts, her answer was also NONE.

What is there to complain about, success in a matter of days is a virtual certainty?

So Mike how many times have you been to Africa that you did not have success? Lets face it I don't care were you go in Africa the success rate is way higher then hunting here in the states typically. They raise or protect animals for numbers no matter what country you hunt.You don't think that man made waterhole you hunt around with no problem in zim makes your hunt easier or a sure thing to see game that would not be there if not for that water source. Dam guys time to get real with the truth.

Maybe the way you get to hunt a lion in SA has something to do with the reason you normally take what your after. Tracking them in the sand and them taking a stand after being stalked for miles does not make it a sure thing if the hunter cant do his part. Now maybe those lions are not be baited like the so called wild lions or they cant run in to another area were hunters cant go but it is getting old with all the reason some try to come up with when there first 10 fail to why it is not a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

So Mike how many times have you been to Africa that you did not have success?

Twice actually. Once for lion and once for elephant. Both hunts were twenty-day hunts.

you did not even see one because after all hunting is not about taking something so your hunt must have still been a success if you saw some.

I have only hunted high fence but I am still looking for my limpo bushbuck,bushpig and warthog. No way to know if I will ever have success even hunting behind fence.After all I know they are there for me to hunt and take

Could not wade through all the threads but read most of them , my 10 cents is that those who are for the practice ( again note cant refer to it as hunting ) are those that have a financial interest in the practice succeeding or those who dont seem to understand the concept of hunting/wilderness in the true sense.

This causes the divided opinion, on one side those that benefit financialy and who's hunting activities are not grounded in conservation / wilderness pursuits versus conservation , non financial implicated persons.

Zambia , Zimbabwe, Tanzania , Botswana , Mozambique, Namibia professional outfitters and hunters have all opposed the practise based on academic and social opinion. And now South Africa , which is strongly supported by the other associations.

By opposing this practice we are not aiding and abetting the ARA's , that is not a good rumor to start within the hunting fraternity. The opposite is true , it is a strong stand to defend our industry and make it great again .

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

+1