quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
SAEED I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU on your points, ironically 80% of all red stag in New Zeeland is penned raised put in a shoot measured and then called in a class bronze, silver, or gold! most of the exotic game ranches in Texas are small with every species under the sun available Namibia is importing South Africas sable Nyala's black wildebeeast blesbuck as fast as the can there is even talk of buffalo now while they hunt captive bred lions in South Africa and we can not being PHASA members go figure!!!

Jaco Human if you think breeding animals in a pen have no conservation value you live in another world tell how big is your ranch and how do you run it as a profitable ranch?? or outfit??

Phillip, the intensive capture breeding programs are purely there to to produce animals with longer horn lengths and colour variants. There is a place that capture breeding plays and I do agree that it plays a role in conservation, there are certain species where humans had to intervene to save the species. The moment you start cross breeding animals from different population groups to enhance horn length then it do not serve conservation.

While many can understand the concept of selective breeding to maximize horn length and/or color, at the end of the day, this is an industry exclusively catering to hunters for the sole purpose of hanging a head on a wall. You purchase, breed, and contain animals behind a fence for someone to pay you a fist full of bucks to come kill it. That is all the anti hunters understand and it matters not if it is a lion, a Kudu or a Rock Dassie all they see is animals unnaturally constricted behind a cage sold for sport.

PHASA has deluded themselves into believing that because they can justify a difference between a captive bred Lion and a captive bred Kudu that they will win their freedom from the anti hunters. That's simply not going to happen.

But I totally agree with you that in a few rare cases, intervention and controlled breeding has saved species. Frank Bowker and his family pretty much singlehandedly saved the Bontebok. But that is the exception and not the rule. SA farms are not in the conservation business, they are in the sport hunting for profit business. Most would be in the cattle business if there was no money in the sport hunting business. The sad part is, if PHASA continues down this road, that may very well be what eventually happens.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
It seems that the general consensus from members replying on this thread, is that all South African plains game hunts are put and take.

Put and take is certainly not the norm.

Am I missing something here?

Marius, you are 100% correct it is not the norm in anyway not among the outfitters that I know. The few who is doing it is the ones that is giving us a bad name.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

I'll bite. Other than the recent uproar around lion hunting how do you see the difference between shooting a kudu that was bought that season to be shot and a lion that has been bought to be shot? Except that one is a lion, a species that is in the public eye now and one is a kudu that nobody cares about the hunt of either behind wire seems the same to me.

Mark

A captive bred lion is released to be shot within a matter of days, perhaps a week. There is no expectation or reasonable possibility that the lion will breed, form a family group, propagate, etc. It is a canned "hunt". Plains game animals raised on game farms and purchased at auction are released to breed, form family groups and propagate . . . some will survive and some will be hunted at some point. If a plains game animal was bred and raised in captivity and released to be specifically targeted and shot in a matter of days or a week, I would find that objectionable too. That is not hunting, it is killing. Hardly surprising that an organization dedicated to hunting would object to such a practice. To me, the distinction between releasing a specific animal with the intent that that specific animal will be pursued and killed in a matter of days versus releasing an animal with the intent that it will become part of a herd out of which some animals will ultimately be hunted is a meaningful distinction.

I agree with Mike but add that, like all hunting ethics, it is a matter for all hunters to decide what is acceptable for themselves. We cannot allow the antis to dictate what is "acceptable" simply because they will find all hunting unacceptable in the end.

For me, I have absolutely no desire to shoot any animal in an enclosure smaller than the State of Delaware! To me, a canned lion trophy is akin to A-Rod's batting records; tainted forever!

Stan Burger's statement of:

“Phasa’s concern is rooted in the fact that the prevailing view amongst carnivore specialists‚ is that the breeding of lions in captivity does not contribute to the conservation of the species‚”

Is entirely accurate (although it could perhaps have been better expressed).

Captive bred lions are bred, released & shot & because wild lions are a quota animal (that has more demand than supply) the shooting of captive bred lions doesn't relieve the pressure on the wild lion populations one iota nor does it add to the gene pool or increase the wild lion population numbers.

In other words one thing has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

The only two things that captive bred lion shooting achieves is it allows more people to have a lion in their trophy room than if wild lions only were available & it gives the antis a very effective tool to attack us with.

One also has to understand the background to this case: - What happened was that PHASA had a moratorium on the shooting of captive bred lions for decades....... not years but decades & a few (can't remember how many) years ago that moratorium was lifted when a few of the canned lion brigade more or less hijacked the AGM just before it's closing when they introduced a motion when most members had gone home....... Most of the membership were furious & the moratorium was later reinstated.

Then when it was ignored by a few, they were quite rightly suspended.

Actually what we are already seeing is there's more focus and more pressure being put on wild lion populations. That means trophy fees will skyrocket and there will be more pressure to collect a lion at all costs. What will happen next is prime and subadult lions will be shot in increasing numbers and fratricide will increase as well. While the number of tags may or may not increase (we all know how that goes - a few bucks and more special problem lion permits for export suddenly become available. TIA), the end result will be natural lion populations will rapidly decline to the point that lion hunting will end.

So if the above is even marginally accurate, captive bred lion do in fact play a part in wild lion conservation. Remove that resource and wild lion will be in greater jeopardy.

What bloody difference does make to wild lions?

Does shooting a farm bred kudu has effect on wild kudu?

The aim is to stop hunting!

PERIOD!

And we are played into their hands!

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Actually what we are already seeing is there's more focus and more pressure being put on wild lion populations. That means trophy fees will skyrocket and there will be more pressure to collect a lion at all costs. What will happen next is sub adult lions will be shot in increasing numbers and fratricide will increase as well. While the number of tags may or may not increase (we all know how that goes - a few bucks and more special problem lion permits for export suddenly become available. TIA), the end result will be natural lion populations will rapidly decline to the point that lion hunting will end.

So if the above is even marginally accurate, captive bred lion do in fact play a part in wild lion conservation. Remove that resource and wild lion will be in greater jeopardy.

Wild lions have fixed quotas & in most places age restrictions and/or guidelines relating to which lions can be taken ...... but I'd be genuinely interested to hear how captive bred lions can affect wild lion populations in any way?...... As I see it one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What bloody difference does make to wild lions?

Does shooting a farm bred kudu has effect on wild kudu?

The aim is to stop hunting!

PERIOD!

And we are played into their hands!

As I see it, one thing has nothing to do with the other..... Kudu or other plains game spend their life being self sufficient. They learn the terrain, water sources & escape routes of their environment over years whereas captive bred lions spend their life in a pen where food is provided for them and they are then released into a completely alien environment and shot within a very short period of time after release so IMO it's two very different issues.

As I see it, hunters need to abide to a strict code of conduct and fair chase etc...... and if they don't then sooner or later someone will step in to do it for us and you can bet your life they won't be pro hunting.

I agree the aim (pardon the pun) of the antis is to stop us hunting entirely but to me the shooting of captive bred lions is giving them the ammunition to help them do just that.

The only way for us to ensure that sport trophy hunting continues for the next generation is for us to take the moral high ground where it can be proved that our sport ensures the well being of game populations in the areas it takes place.

Lion permits are not a fixed, set in stone number. Most governments reserve the right to issue special permits for "problem" lions. As the interest and more importantly the bucks increase for lion trophies, we will see an uptick in "special permits". In some countries, this is already taking place. More applications for "special permits" are being submitted. It will be interesting to see the numbers at the end of 2017, but I am betting we will see more wild lion killed than 2016.

When trophy costs increase, more and more people will figure out a way to capitalize on the money train.

TIA

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Lion permits are not a fixed, set in stone number. Most governments reserve the right to issue special permits for "problem" lions. As the interest and more importantly the bucks increase for lion trophies, we will see an uptick in "special permits". In some countries, this is already taking place. More applications for "special permits" are being submitted. It will be interesting to see the numbers at the end of 2017, but I am betting we will see more wild lion killed than 2016.

When trophy costs increase, more and more people will figure out a way to capitalize on the money train.

TIA

No, they're not set in stone as far as the African country is concerned which is what allows the game department to manage their populations....... Admittedly there are other issues such as import permits from importing countries such as USF&WS & CITES both of which are separate issues that do certainly need addressing...... We all know what a super mega bugly stuff up USF&WS are (especially with regard to lions) but CITES are equally bad...... check their website & you'll see not a year goes by that they don't issue permits that allow live captive bred lions to be moved from one African country to another, usually for the purposes of 'travelling circuses' - Now hands up all those who have seen even an ad for a travelling circus in Africa let alone actually seen or visited such circus? - If captive lion breeding were illegal, such dodgy transactions couldn't take place.

Some countries do indeed issue permits for 'problem lions' but most if not all countries don't allow those 'problem lions' to be taken by an overseas hunter nor will they allow said trophies to be exported.

Came across this press release from SAPA:


“HUNTERS ASSOCIATION TO DEFEND ITS DECISION ON CAPTIVE-BRED LIONS- NEWS24”

The South African Predator Association(SAPA) has taken note of a press release (“HUNTERS ASSOCIATION TO DEFEND ITS DECISION ON CAPTIVE-BRED LIONS- NEWS24”) issued by the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA).

SAPA is of the opinion that some people may find the choice of words in the title of PHASA’s press release somewhat misleading, as it may suggest that SAPA is in some way involved in a court action. SAPA wishes to make it clear that it had no participation in any court proceedings. It is entirely an internal dispute between disgruntled PHASA members and the executive committee of PHASA.

SAPA and PHASA have struck a gentleman’s agreement not to attack each other in the press, but to resolve difficulties the responsible way – around a table. It is therefore perturbing to SAPA to read in PHASA’s press release, “SAPA has failed to convince it(PHASA).... of the conservation value of captive- bred lions.”

SAPA has not yet been afforded the opportunity to present proof of the success of its efforts to the members of PHASA, so it is unclear how SAPA could have “failed.”

SAPA calls on the exco of PHASA to clarify the nature of the court proceedings involving them and to state categorically that it in no way involves SAPA or concerns captive-bred lion hunting. The South African Predator Association is not involved in PHASA’s internal difficulties and wishes to remain so.

We also urge PHASA to make every effort to resolve the difficulties within its ranks. PHASA is a flagship organization in the South African hunting milieu and any damage it suffers due to infighting will be detrimental to every true hunter and conservationist in South Africa.

ISSUED BY THE SOUTH AFRICAN PREDATOR ASSOCIATION, 18 NOVEMBER 2O16

I've just realised I might not have made my point as clearly as I should have in my last post.

The point I was trying to make is that no matter if 1, 10, 100 or 1000 captive bred lions are shot it won't affect the wild lion populations one iota because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Therefore the statement Stan Burger made is quite correct.

Steve, I realize this is not an exact correlation, but what happened to Rhino when their numbers started to dwindle and the demand rose? A few enterprising folks started breeding them in captivity and then created the illusion that hunters were hunting "wild Rhino" when in fact they were hunting captive bred Rhino. While deplorable, it served a purpose and provided hunters with access to Rhino trophies - not to mention made those operators millions in the process. When that practice was exposed and started to die out, trophy fees skyrocket and demand rose. All the sudden Rhino populations were in jeopardy due to hunting and poaching pressure and the opportunity to hunt them has evaporated save a few incredibly expensive opportunities each year. If Rhino were plentiful both in captivity and in the wild the poaching pressure would be far less than what it is today because they would be less valuable.

When something of value increases in Africa, folks will find a way to exploit it. Wild lion populations will go the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Steve, I realize this is not an exact correlation, but what happened to Rhino when their numbers started to dwindle and the demand rose? A few enterprising folks started breeding them in captivity and then created the illusion that hunters were hunting "wild Rhino" when in fact they were hunting captive bred Rhino. While deplorable, it served a purpose and provided hunters with access to Rhino trophies - not to mention made those operators millions in the process. When that practice was exposed and started to die out, trophy fees skyrocket and demand rose. All the sudden Rhino populations were in jeopardy due to hunting and poaching pressure and the opportunity to hunt them has evaporated save a few incredibly expensive opportunities each year. If Rhino were plentiful both in captivity and in the wild the poaching pressure would be far less than what it is today because they would be less valuable.

When something of value increases in Africa, folks will find a way to exploit it. Wild lion populations will go the same way.

Mate, as I see it, they're two totally different things..... Not only are we talking donkey's years ago when the world was very different indeed but the rhino that were bred in captivity were 'wilded out' for years and only shot when they were too old to breed and there are also other factors that are massively different such as herd/pride dynamics between the two species and the fact that a rhino is a herbivore so doesn't kill other game animals on the property.

Captive bred lions are not only bred in a pen but also spend their lives there and are only released very shortly before they're shot (mostly) because of the cost factor of having them eat expensive game animals. (See para above)

As for the long term survivability of wild lions in general, it's not hunters that are the threat it's factors such as human encroachment, poaching & people such as the bloody Masai that will never stop killing lions all they while they have breath in their body........ but that's a different matter entirely.

This is a very unfortunate situation, this press statement could not be further from the truth, this is not at all about fighting the decision on captive bred lions.

This whole case is about unfair membership practices by PHASA, members where forced to sign a Affidavit stating that they do not partake in Captive Bred Lion hunting or breeding.
A large part of the membership base objected to this unjustified request to circumvent the constitutional disciplinary procedure.
Additionally within the Affidavit was content which was not part of the AGM decision and the 13 Members asked for legal advice and wrote a letter requesting clarity on some points.

The immediate reaction was you are all suspended !

This is the basis of the court application, of these 13, 3 where unsuspended after the court application was already served, of the remaining 10 none of them where ever charged trough the disciplinary process, there has this far been no complaint or disciplinary process filed against any of these members or any affidavit filed against them at the PHASA office as stipulated by the constitution that they are aware of.

Of these 10 none have been proven guilty trough any due process.

An that is the reality of this case, how this press release came to be and why i cannot explain, it is as false as can be, it misleads the reader and are far from the truth.

The court application is now public record, if you are interested read the Founding Affidavit and you will see for your self, there is NO attempt to circumvent last years decision, nor has SAPA any role in this case, it is purely about unfair member practices !

********** P R E S S R E L E A S E **********
19 November 2016

Issued by and on behalf of concerned PHASA members :-

This letter stems from concern that the executive committee of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA) may be pursuing a reckless vendetta against some of its members to the detriment of a fine, highly respected institution in particular and the hunting culture in South Africa in general. The latest iteration of this self-defeating campaign came in the form of a press release issued by PHASA on 17 November 2016 with the title, “PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASSOCIATION OF SA TO DEFEND CAPTIVE-BRED LION RESOLUTION IN COURT.”

This title is a poorly composed and ultimately misleading one. The pending court action does not in any way concern the practice of captive-bred lion hunting, but is rather about the callous treatment meted out by PHASA’s exco to some of its members in the aftermath of the association’s annual general meeting which was held on 18 November 2015.

During the meeting PHASA’s members voted, with a count of 143 to 103, to adopt a resolution with this precise phrasing, “PHASA distances itself from all captive-bred lion breeding and hunting until such time as SAPA can convince PHASA and IUCN that captive-bred lion-hunting is beneficial to lion conservation.”

Subsequently the exco, without referral to its members, tacked on an additional paragraph to the resolution to the effect that any breach thereof would necessarily lead to an internal disciplinary process and ultimate expulsion of the offending member.

PHASA’s exco attempted to enforce this resolution by issuing an affidavit which they insisted must be duly signed by earmarked members. This was a targeted requirement and the timing and motive have to be questioned.
This peremptory step was resisted by 13 members of PHASA and as a result they had their memberships suspended by the exco. The executive did reinstate three of these members but, with the run-up to this year’s AGM, refused to extend this reinstatement to the other 10 who remain suspended. Among those who remain suspended, are at least two members who have been nominated to stand for election to the exco of PHASA. Their continued expulsion seems to be a blatant effort by the current exco to deflect the candidacy of these two suspended members.

These ten members resolved to apply to the court to have their membership reinstated, contending that the exco exceeded its powers to suspend them. PHASA’s exco decided to resist the action. That then is the sole reason for the pending court case: it is about the reinstatement of suspended members who contend that their suspension is irregular and just plain wrong. The action does not involve anything more than that.

It is a regrettable fact that PHASA’s exco has exceeded its mandate according to the association’s own constitution and then used strong-arm tactics to try and enforce it in the final days leading up to this year’s AGM. This has undoubtedly done serious and long-lasting harm to a fine institution which has served the South African hunting community in sterling fashion for almost four decades.

Mr Bean du Plessis (B-Proc) Website : http://www.bdpattorneys.co.za

Here is theApplication by members against PHASA

The Opposing afidavid by PHASA can be found here about halfway down the page on the left hand.

Take a look at pg 99 and 100, it is a joint letter sent to PHASA by 17 organisations including Boone & Crockett, DSC, HSC, Wildsheep foundation.

Who else want to tell me that PHASA is alone on the captive bred Lion shooting.

It was not an unfair practice by PHASA, a resolution was taken on the 2015 AGM and members are bound by that decision, therefore PHASA requested that each member sign an affidavit confirming that they do not participate in the captive bred Lion industry. Some members challenged this and lodged an application against PHASA.

Read through the opposing affidavit and you will realize it was not an unfair practice.

Guys,

Here's one for you. One well known operator in RSA is dead set against hunting "Captive Bred" lions. On the other hand he buys lions from reserves etc that have existing populations of lions and places them on his game fenced property to be hunted.

As one previous poster stated aren't we "splitting hairs"? Whether the lion comes from a breeder or an existing population on a reserve he still is going to be hunted behind a high fence on 60,000 acres. To me the origin of the lion is irrelevant.

I just can't get bent out of shape about it regardless of how it is done. I also agree with Saeed that the bottom line is PHASA's caving to anti hunting pressure on lions can only lead to the next campaign to close hunting for some other species.

Mark

Are there any wild lions held behind high fences? How many acres would be required to support one lion? If you had enough land to support enough lions to harvest one mature male and one mature female per year, what price would be required to make the operation profitable?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

Here's one for you. One well known operator in RSA is dead set against hunting "Captive Bred" lions. On the other hand he buys lions from reserves etc that have existing populations of lions and places them on his game fenced property to be hunted.

As one previous poster stated aren't we "splitting hairs"? Whether the lion comes from a breeder or an existing population on a reserve he still is going to be hunted behind a high fence on 60,000 acres. To me the origin of the lion is irrelevant.

I just can't get bent out of shape about it regardless of how it is done. I also agree with Saeed that the bottom line is PHASA's caving to anti hunting pressure on lions can only lead to the next campaign to close hunting for some other species.

Mark

Yup

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
Here is theApplication by members against PHASA

In the application by members against PHASA, on page 20 in section 12.3 of the document that has two proposals that were discussed and voted on at last year's AGM. Proposal 2 regarding PHASA "distancing" itself from captive bred lion hunting passed as it carried more votes than proposal 1 per section 12.6.

But on page 21, section 12.8 it would appear to me that additional language regarding discipline of members was added to proposal 2 at a later date. In other words that part of the proposal was not voted on but apparently added by the Exco after the vote on the original language.

Is my understanding mistaken?

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Are there any wild lions held behind high fences? How many acres would be required to support one lion? If you had enough land to support enough lions to harvest one mature male and one mature female per year, what price would be required to make the operation profitable?

This has been addressed before but let's do a little mathematics & I'll try to be on the kind side.

Let's assume one lion eats just one impala every other day (which is quite an underestimation) of the year & the impala can be bought at auction for $100 which adds up to $18250 multiply that by let's say 4 years for it to reach anything like maturity & we're up to §73000 and if we add on another 2 years for a much better trophy we're up to $109500.

Then factor in the fact that a lion doesn't know the difference between an impala or a zebra or even a sable so will eat a few of those from time to time & you quickly realise why it's far more profitable for the lion to be kept in a pen all it's life, fed shite meat that can be bought for next to nothing & then released & shot immediately afterwards.

Those figures incidentally don't make any allowance for profit, agent's commission or marketing costs etc.

Thanks for doing the math Shakari. It may come to some people paying $125,000 to shoot a wild lion behind high fences.

What about my "how many acres" to support a harvest of one lioness and one lion per year?

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Thanks for doing the math Shakari. It may come to some people paying $125,000 to shoot a wild lion behind high fences.

What about my "how many acres" to support a harvest of one lioness and one lion per year?

It's not really about acreage because a lion's territory can vary in size enormously which is one of the reasons they can be kept in pens....... it's more about food supply but a bit of Googling will tell you they can reasonably be expected to eat considerably more than that 1 impala every 2 days that I mentioned which of course means costs could be expected to rise well above the projections I mentioned.

I should have added that any lion held behind fences will obviously not behave the same way as a truly wild lion living in a true wilderness area simply because it'll become habituated to the presence of vehicles & people etc.

I'm not suggesting it'll make them less dangerous & indeed the opposite could be argued but it will change their behaviour patterns dramatically.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I should have added that any lion held behind fences will obviously not behave the same way as a truly wild lion living in a true wilderness area simply because it'll become habituated to the presence of vehicles & people etc.

I'm not suggesting it'll make them less dangerous & indeed the opposite could be argued but it will change their behaviour patterns dramatically.

Are people hunting lions purposely putting themselves in danger?

Again, what has the danger part got anything to do with it?

Are farm bred lions less dangerous than wild ones??

Aren't they many videos on youtube that show farm bred lions attacking hunters who screwed up the hunt?

I have been hunting wild lions for over 30 years, and I have never been in any danger.

I have had lions lay down right against a flimsy cloth hyde, where the distance between me and them are measured in inches.

Didn't really feel I was in any mortal danger.

As I keep saying, we are nitpicking silly bits and pieces, and all we are doing is supporting the antis to kill our sport.

"You cannot compare how a lion lives to how a kudu lives"

"You cannot compare how a rhino lives to how a lion lives"

"A farm bred lion is not as dangerous as a wild bred lion"

And we keep forgetting the most important one.

"ANTI HUNTING SOLE PURPOSE IS TO STOP HUNTING"

There is no doubt about that whatsoever, so let us give them a hand to stop us hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

There is no doubt about that whatsoever, so let us give them a hand to stop us hunting.

Which is precisely what we do when we engage in practices like captive bred lion hunts that allow them to rally public support around their anti-hunting agenda based on our own actions.

Mjines, LETS Say tomorrow morning when we wake up there is not a single captive bred animal anywhere, do you think for one moment the antis will be happy and say " OK now hunting is acceptable??" they will simply move on to the elephants we all like to hunt so much. Once again I will use all the Texas and New Zeeland game ranches as a example... funny how nobody ever say anything about that but all is on board when we talk about South Africa... I got to agree with Saeed the antis love this!!!

I hope we survive this mess!! Glad Trump is in that's one less worry!!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

There is no doubt about that whatsoever, so let us give them a hand to stop us hunting.

Which is precisely what we do when we engage in practices like captive bred lion hunts that allow them to rally public support around their anti-hunting agenda based on our own actions.

Mike, you are 100% correct
There are most probably less anti's than there are hunters, then why are they so successful in spreading their anti-hunting message? The use the huge uninformed public that lies between the hunters and the anti's. The anti's take what we do wrong , twist it a bit more, add some emotion to it and start spreading their message among the uninformed public and get their support.

The anti's are not the people who will decide on our hunting future, the general public will make that decision for us if we do not get our house in order. If we do not give the anti's ammunition, they will keep on spreading lies. We cannot defend captive bred hunting with the general public as is serves no purpose in conservation, it only serves greed. I can defend the fact that an old Rhino bull is hunted for a lot of $ to make money available for anti poaching and give the farmer an income for making his land available for the animals to live on ( the farmer could have carried on farming with cattle in most instances). I can defend the fact that an elephant feed a whole village for a few weeks and that an over population of Elephant have a negative impact on the ecology and the conservation of other animals.

We need to get the general public on our side, get them to understand what the direct and indirect value of hunting in conservation. Here PHASA is playing a massive role in getting the the right information out to the general public. Those who say that PHASA is closing doors for hunting does not know how much PHASA is doing to spread the word on the benefits that ethical sustainable hunting have for communities and conservation.

We as hunters are closing our own doors by keeping on engaging in unethical and unfair practices that are only serving greed.

quote:

I can defend the fact that an old Rhino bull is hunted for a lot of $ to make money available for anti poaching and give the farmer an income for making his land available for the animals to live on ( the farmer could have carried on farming with cattle in most instances).

Jaco, what is the difference between the life of a Rhino and the life of a Lion?

How are you going to stop the ball that PHASA has set in motion when they simply steer it towards every other animal we hunt?

PHASA is opening the door that is going to stop hunting. Not the anti hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

I can defend the fact that an old Rhino bull is hunted for a lot of $ to make money available for anti poaching and give the farmer an income for making his land available for the animals to live on ( the farmer could have carried on farming with cattle in most instances).

Jaco, what is the difference between the life of a Rhino and the life of a Lion?

How are you going to stop the ball that PHASA has set in motion when they simply steer it towards every other animal we hunt?

PHASA is opening the door that is going to stop hunting. Not the anti hunters.

Get informed, then you will know better.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:
I can defend the fact that an old Rhino bull is hunted for a lot of $ to make money available for anti poaching and give the farmer an income for making his land available for the animals to live on ( the farmer could have carried on farming with cattle in most instances).



Jaco, what is the difference between the life of a Rhino and the life of a Lion?

How are you going to stop the ball that PHASA has set in motion when they simply steer it towards every other animal we hunt?

PHASA is opening the door that is going to stop hunting. Not the anti hunters.



Get informed, then you will know better.

Well then inform me Jaco.

Tell me how you will stop this when they decide that Kudu are not ethical to hunt, or maybe Gemsbok.

Jaco what is ethical for you might not be for the other guy... some hunts are over feeders some are with dogs some are in fenced areas some are on big open areas over bait most hippos get shot right in the water when he pops up his head is that ethical? leopards are mostly shot over a bait with spot light lions in Africa over bait from a blind, 90% of all whitetail dear over a feeder from a blind bears over bait in a trash can were do we draw the line so lets stop this ethical thing there will never ever be consensus on what is ethical and what not.

Pls inform me as well, since venture south is also not informed .

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

Mjines, LETS Say tomorrow morning when we wake up there is not a single captive bred animal anywhere, do you think for one moment the antis will be happy and say " OK now hunting is acceptable??"

Not a chance. However, we will have taken away from them the ability to use captive-bred lion hunts as a tool to convert those that are ambivalent toward or agnostic about hunting. Trying thinking about this issue from the standpoint not of an anti-hunter, they will never be convinced hunting is acceptable. Try thinking about this issue from the standpoint of the person that is ambivalent to hunting or largely agnostic to hunting. That is the group we need to focus on . . . the large population in the middle. How do you convince that group that hunting is a worthwhile endeavor, that hunters are conservationists, etc. when they are told that hunters support a practice of raising lions in pens, turning the lions out in a pasture hours or days before a hunter then goes out and shoots it? It is such an outlandish practice to most non-hunters that it then becomes the brush used to paint all hunting.

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Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

Mjines, LETS Say tomorrow morning when we wake up there is not a single captive bred animal anywhere, do you think for one moment the antis will be happy and say " OK now hunting is acceptable??"



Not a chance. However, we will have taken away from them the ability to use captive-bred lion hunts as a tool to convert those that are ambivalent toward or agnostic about hunting. Trying thinking about this issue from the standpoint not of an anti-hunter, they will never be convinced hunting is acceptable. Try thinking about this issue from the standpoint of the person that is ambivalent to hunting or largely agnostic to hunting. That is the group we need to focus on . . . the large population in the middle. How do you convince that group that hunting is a worthwhile endeavor, that hunters are conservationists, etc. when they are told that hunters support a practice of raising lions in pens, turning the lions out in a pasture hours or days before a hunter then goes out and shoots it? It is such an outlandish practice to most non-hunters that it then becomes the brush used to paint all hunting.

Mike, how is that different to raising any other form of livestock?

The questions I raise are not in support of this. But the legislation that may ensue with the "support of a hunting association" leaves us all open to having it used as the stick to close other forms of hunting.

There are better ways for PHASA to have handled this. They have failed in their primary role of protecting hunting in conservation, due to their own dislike of this individual practice.

Bottom line, how do you differentiate between a lion and a kudu if they are seen to be bred in a "manmade enviroment".
Why is a 2mx3m camp any different to the fence around the Kruger park.
How is an animal that was darted and placed in a camp 5 years ago different to one that was placed there 5 hours ago?

There are far more dangers here than benefits.

One other thing, while we are looking at ways to grow hunting and convey its benefits. A lawsuit will only focus on the negatives of hunting.
Rather spend that money on spreading the good of hunting via social media etc.
Look at the success that DSC has had with their little campaign. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation etc.

If all the people in the hunting world just did their part for 1 day. We have this thing beaten hands down. But as long as associations drive division, they will pave the way for their own conquer.

Wake up people, the antis are not wining, you are cutting your own throats.

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

Mjines, LETS Say tomorrow morning when we wake up there is not a single captive bred animal anywhere, do you think for one moment the antis will be happy and say " OK now hunting is acceptable??"

Not a chance. However, we will have taken away from them the ability to use captive-bred lion hunts as a tool to convert those that are ambivalent toward or agnostic about hunting. Trying thinking about this issue from the standpoint not of an anti-hunter, they will never be convinced hunting is acceptable. Try thinking about this issue from the standpoint of the person that is ambivalent to hunting or largely agnostic to hunting. That is the group we need to focus on . . . the large population in the middle. How do you convince that group that hunting is a worthwhile endeavor, that hunters are conservationists, etc. when they are told that hunters support a practice of raising lions in pens, turning the lions out in a pasture hours or days before a hunter then goes out and shoots it? It is such an outlandish practice to most non-hunters that it then becomes the brush used to paint all hunting.

Geez Mike what a great idea. Let' take away all the anti hunter's ammunition to stop hunting by surrendering our rights to hunt. Let's do their job for them. Let's petition to stop all forms of hunting. That'll show um.

Gosh this could really catch on, we can surrender our guns next. That'll show the antigunners who's boss.

I take it you are not in the PR, Marketing or Sales business I hope.

I am currently hunting and will respond more fully later. Candidly though if you do not believe that the non-hunting public (people that are either ambivalent towards hunting or agnostic towards hunting, not the anti-hunting crowd) do not regard hunting a small pasture for an animal released five hours earlier versus hunting a large game managed property for animals that were released five years ago and have been breeding and propagating on the property for years, not sure what is gained by a long back and forth. I think most people see a meaningful distinction between the harvesting of game on a large ranch where the game is allowed to roam free and breed . . . and a quota of animals are taken from such herds . . . and hunting lion bred in captivity and then released for the specific purpose of being sport hunted within days or hours of release.

Mike this isn't an election for homecoming queen. The anti hunter movement isn't at all interested in winning the hearts and minds of soccer moms and little Miss Susie Homemaker. They are dedicated, better organized than us by a long shot, better financed than us by a massive amount, they have the ear of African politicians, and are slowly winning the war while we sit around and talk about ethics. In fact, they wish we would all sit around and talk about ethics and they hope that PHASA is successful in eating their own.

We are playing into their hand and they are hoping that we give the first inch because the next mile will be so much easier.

If you're depending on winning the hearts and minds of Soccer Moms and the little Miss Susie Homemakers of the world in order to protect your hunting rights, you picked the wrong horse.

Have a great hunt.

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In fact, they wish we would all sit around and talk about ethics and they hope that PHASA is successful in eating their own.

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In fact, they wish we would all sit around and talk about ethics and they hope that PHASA is successful in eating their own.

We are playing into their hand and they are hoping that we give the first inch because the next mile will be so much easier.

There are several forms of hunting that I delpor and would never engage in, but I would never throw one of them under the bus as we are all inextricably connected.

PHASA better wake up.

And this is my last post on the thread...