How about deer being shot on feeders?

How about pheasants released for immediate availability to be killed??

Stop it Saeed your making sense....I had the following discussion with an anti.

Apparently whale hunting was bad but killing millions of cattle every year was ok.

She pointed out that cattle were bred to be slaughtered so it was ok, Whales were free animals.

I said "cold comfort to the cow"......

Let me get this straight..our argument for shooting canned lions is that we domesticated other animals for food? Ok..got it

No the argument is a lion is no different then any other animal all because a few want to make it special and off limits to be raised for hunting like any other animal. Get past it is a lion because there will be a next animal they want to save after the lion.

The people who raise lions provide a service some of us want. Some of us don't carry if everyone likes or agrees with the hunting of a raised lion. WE want it as fair as possible and at a fair cost. I don't bash other hunters for hunting how they want or animals I don't think are hunted in a fair way.

The facts are phasa is still a joke and sold out and I don't care what group wants to pat them on the back now. The groups do not speak for all hunters and never well. Some do great work but the heads of the group still have there point of views and never really speak for the hunters they so call speak for plan and simple.

I really don't care that the ethic police on here think there say is worth more then anyone else's. Make up any reason you want the fact is we keep loosing because we can't stand together because of details that do not matter to any anti. They care about saving animals wild,raised for food or sport.

Funny how we are in the boat we are not as much because of a raised lion but because of a famous wild lion. Hunters and anti's went with the story that was out there with very few real fact known. To this day there is only a few who know what really happened and I don't think the whole truth will ever come out but the damage is done. Those that think giving up the fight on raised lions will learn a hard lesson when they pick the next animal to save and it just maybe one they want to fight for and lose because of not taking the stand now.

The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

Bcap,

It's not that it's a lion. It's that the lion is hunted in a BS manner.

Has anyone heard about the outcome of the court case? Acting unlawfully is never a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

I concur.

But...when Aaron, George, all the scientifists, and I first wrote the "Definition of a Huntable Male Lion" and started lion hunting down an evidence based path to secure sustainability...you were one of the people who gave us push-back...until you got your lion...then you got on board.

Just to add to "the honest" discussion.

. . . never said I was too stubborn to listen and learn . . . unlike some. Fact is, my views on the ethics of canned lion hunting have never changed and me shooting a lion had nothing to do with those views. The debate over the definition of a huntable wild male lion and the debate over the issue of canned lion hunting are frankly chalk and cheese (truth is that most male lions shot in canned lion hunts would meet the definition of a huntable male lion).

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . never said I was too stubborn to listen and learn . . . unlike some. Fact is, my views on the ethics of canned lion hunting have never changed and me shooting a lion had nothing to do with those views. The debate over the definition of a huntable wild male lion and the debate over the issue of canned lion hunting are frankly chalk and cheese.

No sir...they are linked (having spent 4 years of my life diligently working on the subject)

But I agree with you on canned lion hunting.

There will be shortly a new coalition put together to work with the new administration as an advisory group on such matters. I will advocate for your inclusion if you would like???

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

But for the record...failing to stand together is NOT way down the list. Ask Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, and anyone else who worked to keep the lion from being listed as endangered.

Failure to stand together WAS our biggest obstacle.

Hunter's must learn strength only comes through coalition...we are a minority.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

But for the record...failing to stand together is NOT way down the list. Ask Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, and anyone else who worked to keep the lion from being listed as endangered.

Failure to stand together WAS our biggest obstacle.

Hunter's must learn strength only comes through coalition...we are a minority.

So we should all stand together and support canned lion hunting . . . after all it is legal?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

But for the record...failing to stand together is NOT way down the list. Ask Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, and anyone else who worked to keep the lion from being listed as endangered.

Failure to stand together WAS our biggest obstacle.

Hunter's must learn strength only comes through coalition...we are a minority.

So we should all stand together and support canned lion hunting . . . after all it is legal?

No sir...that is not what I am saying at all. I agree with your stance on canned lion shooting...support it (your stance) 100%!

But...we need to proceed cautiously and inclusively and work with people like Marius Goosen and the places he is speaking of...I know of other in RSA like the ones he speaks of.

Winning this battle is one of inclusion rather than exclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Eardley Rudman:
Has anyone heard about the outcome of the court case? Acting unlawfully is never a good idea.

The applicants won the case and the court ordered that they be reinstated as members of PHASA.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The reason we keep losing is that we do not fight smart. We defend indefensible practices. We ignore public opinion in shaping our messaging. We fail to hold each other accountable for our actions. We believe that we can operate in a vacuum and simply tell the non-hunting public to take a hike. We do not use the electronic media tools of this generation adequately to convey our message. We spend too much time preaching to the choir and not enough time reaching out to others. We spend more time focused on trophy quality and less time focused on the hunting experience. There a lots of reasons why we keep losing . . . but failing to stand together is way down the list.

But for the record...failing to stand together is NOT way down the list. Ask Aaron Neilson, George Hartley, and anyone else who worked to keep the lion from being listed as endangered.

Failure to stand together WAS our biggest obstacle.

Hunter's must learn strength only comes through coalition...we are a minority.

So we should all stand together and support canned lion hunting . . . after all it is legal?

No sir...that is not what I am saying at all. I agree with your stance on canned lion shooting...support it (your stance) 100%!

But...we need to proceed cautiously and inclusively and work with people like Marius Goosen and the places he is speaking of...I know of other in RSA like the ones he speaks of.

Winning this battle is one of inclusion rather than exclusion.

Yes. It does not seem like this has to be an all or nothing situation with no room for an agreed upon middle ground.

If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

Would you lump farm raised deer under USDA or USFWS?

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

Would you lump farm raised deer under USDA or USFWS?

They should really be under USDA.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

Would you lump farm raised deer under USDA or USFWS?

They should really be under USDA.

Makes sense to me...although, I'm not sure what kind of can of worms that opens.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

Would you lump farm raised deer under USDA or USFWS?

They should really be under USDA.

Makes sense to me...although, I'm not sure what kind of can of worms that opens.

Agreed. DNR currently issues hunting licenses. If USDA started regulating them, would they be responsible for permits? Or other animals such as pen raised birds? Removing DNR from regulating the game species would remove the biologists from management.

Yes that sounds so smart lets get another group of know nothing people to help regulate hunting because it is raised. I am sure that will really help us out. The idea of adding anyone else to make more rules or have say on hunting rights just flat out sounds stupid to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Bcap,

It's not that it's a lion. It's that the lion is hunted in a BS manner.

No, it's because it is a lion, or any other animal for that matter. Not because of some "BS hunting method." And until folks stop fighting with themselves over "hunting methods" we will continue to loose ground to the anti's.

When your opponent is destroying themselves, you sit back and let them. Fighting over methods is going just that.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Bcap,

It's not that it's a lion. It's that the lion is hunted in a BS manner.

No, it's because it is a lion, or any other animal for that matter. Not because of some "BS hunting method." And until folks stop fighting with themselves over "hunting methods" we will continue to loose ground to the anti's.

When hunting deteriorates into shooting cage raised lions, in a small hunting area, after being released just a few days prior...then yes it's BS. Why not save the PH the hassle and go shoot the damn thing at the breeding facility..then you can have your pick while you're there.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Bcap,

It's not that it's a lion. It's that the lion is hunted in a BS manner.

No, it's because it is a lion, or any other animal for that matter. Not because of some "BS hunting method." And until folks stop fighting with themselves over "hunting methods" we will continue to loose ground to the anti's.

When hunting deteriorates into shooting cage raised lions, in a small hunting area, after being released just a few days prior...then yes it's BS. Why not save the PH the hassle and go shoot the damn thing at the breeding facility..then you can have your pick while you're there.

I think you are missing my point. The Anti's don't care about hunting method, only stopping hunting, period. I remember hearing, "its unfair to shoot an animal with a "high powered rifle" from a distance, the animal has no chance of escape, you should hunt with an bow. Now I hear that's it cruel to hunt with a bow as the animal suffers a slow death. You will never satisfy them.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Bcap,

It's not that it's a lion. It's that the lion is hunted in a BS manner.

No, it's because it is a lion, or any other animal for that matter. Not because of some "BS hunting method." And until folks stop fighting with themselves over "hunting methods" we will continue to loose ground to the anti's.

When hunting deteriorates into shooting cage raised lions, in a small hunting area, after being released just a few days prior...then yes it's BS. Why not save the PH the hassle and go shoot the damn thing at the breeding facility..then you can have your pick while you're there.

I think you are missing my point. The Anti's don't care about hunting method, only stopping hunting, period. I remember hearing, "its unfair to shoot an animal with a "high powered rifle" from a distance, the animal has no chance of escape, you should hunt with an bow. Now I hear that's it cruel to hunt with a bow as the animal suffers a slow death. You will never satisfy them.

Please read the thread in its entirety...MJines does a good job of addressing this point nicely. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

When your opponent is destroying themselves, you sit back and let them. Fighting over methods is going just that.

Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to engage in practices that allow your opponents to use your very own practices as examples of why hunting is inhuman, why hunters are barbaric, etc.? If you really want to defeat your opponent why would you want to arm him with ammunition that can be used against you with the general public and the media?

To win the fight over sport hunting we need for the public to at least remain indifferent to sport hunting . . . we do not need to convince them that sport hunting is good, we only need to convince them that sport hunting is not bad and to leave it alone. I am sorry but the public at large is never going to find that raising a lion from a cub in pen then turning that lion loose for a few hours or days before someone paying thousands of dollars comes and whacks it is sporting, fair chase, conservation oriented or has any other socially redeeming value. So why encourage and perpetuate a practice that your opponents will simply use to say, "see we told you so, this is why we need to stop all hunting . . . hunters are a crass and inhuman group"? We have a tough enough fight as it is without handing our opponents examples of practices that they turn around and use against us to prove their case . . . which is precisely what captive-bred lion hunting is doing.

Yes he does a great job of telling his narrow minded view of I don't like it so I will side with the anti's on this because that really helps as a group.

I don't think some people are getting that like it or not raised animals is now a part of hunting. The land can not give what it use to based on the growth of the world. So if you think that smaller game numbers should equal we just say fewer people should have the right to hunt certain animals instead of raising some your for yourself plan and simple. When fewer hunters are able to hunt and as we lose numbers of people wanting to hunt we lose more strength in numbers each year.

South Africa is one of the best storys we have at showing what can happen with raising animals. They went from shrinking game numbers to record numbers. Why because there is a market for it the same as there is for lions now.

Yes some things can be done better but I am so sick of guys bringing up the past like the lion hunts have not got any better at all. Most read the same story's the anti's do and believe all that is said or they heard that all lion hunts are the same because there friend heard from his uncle friend that his dad brother heard this guy shot a drugged lion. Get over yourself and realize we are loosing the war and next will be leopard or rhino. Then the cute giraffe or zebra because it was raised behind a fence.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

South Africa is one of the best storys we have at showing what can happen with raising animals. They went from shrinking game numbers to record numbers.

. . . and canned lion hunts are one of South Africa's most embarrassing hunting stories. A story that is used to portray all hunting in a negative light.

That's you view on it not mine. Like I said early I have done a raised lion hunt with my son. had non hunters and people not a fan of hunting at all talk to me. After our talk they did not have the same out look they started with. Maybe some people just don't know how to talk with non hunters and just not as smart as they think.

. . . I fear you are rationalizing but maybe not. How long was the lion your son hunted "wilded" and how big was the property it was hunted on? How many days did it take to you to hunt the lion?

I know right who could ever believe a hunter could speak for themselves and get non hunters to understand. Hell even two clients family who have no idea about hunting after talking with me are planning trips to go see SA. Not all of us need people like phasa or any other group to speak for them.

the place was 10,000 acres with 3 lioness out and 2 males. The lioness was out for 3 month because they could never get on her and ended up taking others before they got her. It took 2 days and she was tracked down in the sand not sleeping or just laying there when we found her. I would say any cat that can cover 60yd charging after the first shot in about 3 seconds sure had no drugs stopping her.

another hunter who was out hunting a male at the same time was chasing one for 3 days with a PH who has hunted over 200 lions. The lion was spotted each day but no shot so the hunt went on. 4th day they took the male

Thanks for the info. Wonder what the outfits normal "wilding" period was?

The irony is we share the same objective (I think), to see sport hunting survive and thrive. However, I do not see captive-bred lion hunts (or any other put and take hunting for that matter) as being constructive in accomplishing that objective given that it is such an offensive practice in the minds of most members of the public that are exposed to it. We are simply arming our opponents with ammunition to attack all types of sport hunting. Seems like a poor strategy to me.

Every day the lion spends in the hunting area is lost money to the owner...end of story. The goal is for the lion to be taken as quickly as possible and yes I've been to what is the most common place for hunters to go...most of the big name Companies all use the same facility to take their hunters to hunt lion. Ever wonder why that Kalahari sand looks so familiar in all the canned lion hunts?

...and no I didn't hunt lion but after becoming good friends with a well known SA PH, he took me there as we passed by to check it out on a hunt in 2012.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
Yes that sounds so smart lets get another group of know nothing people to help regulate hunting because it is raised. I am sure that will really help us out. The idea of adding anyone else to make more rules or have say on hunting rights just flat out sounds stupid to me.

Here in my home state of Minnesota, which is pretty "progressive" while the DNR certifies shooting preserves, there are no attempts to make you follow hunting rules or regulations. If I have the money and the desire, I can shoot 1000 pheasants in a day on a preserve. Taking the meat home does require a tag on it to prove that it was not wild shot (so it does not count against your bag limit or possession limit.) - and you don't need a hunting license to shoot on a preserve for released animals.

While the deer herd is managed by the DNR in the state, they are mainly involved to avoid mixing wild with tame. The only pheasant and duck hatchery I have visited was regulated by USDA not by USFWS.

I have shot fenced game more than once or twice, and as long as I felt it was something of an exercise in finding and killing the game, I was happy. Is hunting farmed pheasants as difficult as wild birds? No. the main thing is you know there are some there... I have shot reserve elk. Tasted mighty good on the plate, and I had fun hanging out with a group of good folks in "elk camp". Was it an actual wild elk hunt? No. but then again, I didn't necessarily kill the first animal I wanted to either.

In essence, the farmed animal was raised to be utilized just like the cow or whatever, it's just the method it gets to the table is a bit different.

Could there be issues with an ag group running game ranching? Sure, but it is logically consistent. However, I am not entirely certain that having a wild animal based bureaucracy works for them... look at the Dama gazelle/Arabian Oryx/Scimitar horned oryx issue in Texas a few years ago. They finally had to get the congress to put down some clowns calling a farmed population of animals endangered.

To me it's an idea that the stakeholders need to discuss and decide if it's worth pursuing. Just because it's logical doesn't mean it is what is worth pursuing.

yup driving by the place will give you all the knowledge you would need to make a good judgement on the hunt for sure.

Or because the Ph you know said it was so must be so. I just wonder why we lose ground to the anti's each day with logic like that.

Just to be clear...I have no issue with hunting behind a fence, but sometimes it goes too far and enters the realm of absurdity. There is a huge difference between hunting a 50k acre fenced place and a place so small it is obvious that animals are simply trucked in and no free roaming resident herds exist. IMO..if the animal can't live year around on the property and be completely self sustaining then you've crossed the line.

Of course others will disagree....

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If there is a group being gotten together for this, I really would like to see an attempt to separate wild animals as being the purview of USFWS here in the US, and farmed animals as being in the preview of some other group, like USFDA or Dpartment of Agriculture.

The fact remains that while hunting gets lumped together, if we separate it out to wild vs farmed, it would likely be much more meaningful.

Good point Dr. Butler.

Would you lump farm raised deer under USDA or USFWS?

They should really be under USDA.

Makes sense to me...although, I'm not sure what kind of can of worms that opens.

Agreed. DNR currently issues hunting licenses. If USDA started regulating them, would they be responsible for permits? Or other animals such as pen raised birds? Removing DNR from regulating the game species would remove the biologists from management.

Farm raised deer should be allowed to be taken at the farmers discretion. They should not be required to have a permit. They hunter in a given should only be required to have a general license for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
Yes that sounds so smart lets get another group of know nothing people to help regulate hunting because it is raised. I am sure that will really help us out. The idea of adding anyone else to make more rules or have say on hunting rights just flat out sounds stupid to me.

It should not be addition...but appropriate application. The USDA should not be allowed to dictate limit season or issue a permit for take...that should be at the farmer's discretion.