Let me try this angle...can someone explain to me why a hunter would want to enter a fenced area, have the guide walk you around for a bit..both of you knowing damn well, that the PH knows exactly where the lion is...come upon the drugged, confused cat, shoot it and then proudly put that in your trophy room?

and before you answer with everyone has their own idea of what is ethical..which is true, what do we do with "hunters" that have NO ethics?

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Let me try this angle...can someone explain to me why a hunter would want to enter a fenced area, have the guide walk you around for a bit..both of you knowing damn well, that the PH knows exactly where the lion is...come upon the drugged, confused cat, shoot it and then proudly put that in your trophy room?

and before you answer with everyone has their own idea of what is ethical..which is true, what do we do with "hunters" that have NO ethics?

What you describe sir is not the way all of these hunts occur. Some do but not all.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Let me try this angle...can someone explain to me why a hunter would want to enter a fenced area, have the guide walk you around for a bit..both of you knowing damn well, that the PH knows exactly where the lion is...come upon the drugged, confused cat, shoot it and then proudly put that in your trophy room?

and before you answer with everyone has their own idea of what is ethical..which is true, what do we do with "hunters" that have NO ethics?

What you describe sir is not the way all of these hunts occur. Some do but not all.

Get rid of the above scenario and anything that resembles it and I'll be all for defending.. Lets call it...game farm lion hunting

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Let me try this angle...can someone explain to me why a hunter would want to enter a fenced area, have the guide walk you around for a bit..both of you knowing damn well, that the PH knows exactly where the lion is...come upon the drugged, confused cat, shoot it and then proudly put that in your trophy room?

and before you answer with everyone has their own idea of what is ethical..which is true, what do we do with "hunters" that have NO ethics?

What you describe sir is not the way all of these hunts occur. Some do but not all.

Agreed Larry. Those are the guys that we need to rid from our industry.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:


Agreed Larry. Those are the guys that we need to rid from our industry.

I fully agree with you, that is what I am arguing about - the bad apples that gives us a bad name.

Pete,

People would do what you described to get a lion for their trophy room without spending the time and money to do a wild lion hunt. Also the outcome is basically guaranteed. That scenario doesn't appeal to me but being that it's been around for quite awhile there must be a flourishing market for it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:


Agreed Larry. Those are the guys that we need to rid from our industry.

I fully agree with you, that is what I am arguing about - the bad apples that gives us a bad name.

OK I lied - Try cleaning up the industry rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and giving the anti's a win that will be used against everyone in the high fenced hunting business.

OK. Last post. Promise.

Help me out in case I find myself at a cocktail party and the subject of captive-bred lion hunts comes up based on one of the shows done profiling such hunts. I am talking to a group of people that do not hunt but maybe their father hunted, or they have a friend that hunts, maybe they have read about the locavore movement and are curious. They ask whether the news reports are right, are there really outfits that buy lions raised from cubs in a pen that turn those lions loose and charge clients thousands of dollars to hunt those released lions . . . and is it true the lions are released just hours before or maybe a few days before the hunt?

So they ask, is this sporting? Is this what hunting is all about? What is fair chase about this? How does raising an animal to be hunted and shot within hours of release serve a conservation ideal? Is this viewed as ethical and appropriate by hunters? Help me out with answers. Maybe I can try, mind your own business, it is legal so give me a break. Or perhaps some folks do not have the time for a real lion hunt and need a guaranteed option. Open to suggestions that reasonable people might find rational.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Help me out in case I find myself at a cocktail party and the subject of captive-bred lion hunts comes up based on one of the shows done profiling such hunts. I am talking to a group of people that do not hunt but maybe their father hunted, or they have a friend that hunts, maybe they have read about the locavore movement and are curious. They ask whether the news reports are right, are there really outfits that buy lions raised from cubs in a pen that turn those lions loose and charge clients thousands of dollars to hunt those released lions . . . and is it true the lions are released just hours before or maybe a few days before the hunt?

So they ask, is this sporting? Is this what hunting is all about? What is fair chase about this? How does raising an animal to be hunted and shot within hours of release serve a conservation ideal? Is this viewed as ethical and appropriate by hunters? Help me out with answers. Maybe I can try, mind your own business, it is legal so give me a break. Or perhaps some folks do not have the time for a real lion hunt and need a guaranteed option. Open to suggestions that reasonable people might find rational.

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

“Phasa’s concern is rooted in the fact that the prevailing view amongst carnivore specialists‚ is that the breeding of lions in captivity does not contribute to the conservation of the species‚” Burger said.

What a bloody stupid statement!

Just for the sake of those who haven't had this argument. The position being argued as I understand it (maybe I missed something) is the following....

As SA essentially has no wild lion on private land aside from those that wander in from parks and across borders, which lion are either recaptured or shot, not hunted and

As bred lions are not currently released into the wild and are bred to be and are shot and

As no permits will be issued to hunt lion in natioanl parks and

As the current wild lion population is not considered under threat, in need of being added to by bred lion...


Therefore breeding lion does not increase the wild lion population and therefore does not contribute to conservation of the species.

As I understand the argument. So in SA hunting a bred lion does not "save" a wild lion either. I guess it may save a Zambian lion or something like that.

I follow the argument. Whether that makes the hunting of the bred lion abhorrent or the practice of breeding them seems a tough deduction to make. The point is the bred lion are serving no purpose aside from sport hunting and possibly a little tourism in enclosures. That may change over time.

I know guys who hunted or accompanied others who hunted bred lion who all claim it was an exciting and fair chase hunt possibly moreso that shooting over a bait. The regulations to ensure "fair chase" with regard to release prior to hunt and the size of the area etc. Is where most find fault. But we can all argue this until the bred kudu come home....

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Are there any wild lions held behind high fences? How many acres would be required to support one lion? If you had enough land to support enough lions to harvest one mature male and one mature female per year, what price would be required to make the operation profitable?

This has been addressed before but let's do a little mathematics & I'll try to be on the kind side.

Let's assume one lion eats just one impala every other day (which is quite an underestimation) of the year & the impala can be bought at auction for $100 which adds up to $18250 multiply that by let's say 4 years for it to reach anything like maturity & we're up to §73000 and if we add on another 2 years for a much better trophy we're up to $109500.

Then factor in the fact that a lion doesn't know the difference between an impala or a zebra or even a sable so will eat a few of those from time to time & you quickly realise why it's far more profitable for the lion to be kept in a pen all it's life, fed shite meat that can be bought for next to nothing & then released & shot immediately afterwards.

Those figures incidentally don't make any allowance for profit, agent's commission or marketing costs etc.

I think that the premise for your calculations is flawed.

If someone was going to raise lions in a big enough area to have them hunt and breed, they would start with self sustaining herds of game animals. They wouldn't buy one impala at a time for $100 each and release them for the lions to kill. They would buy or breed a large herd, that way the per unit cost of the prey species would be a lot lower.

Mike,

I typed out a long response which was not easy as I really can't type but I thought better of it. I don't have a good answer for you as to what you'd tell these folks at the party or what I'd say for that matter. That would be up to you. You could try to distance yourself from "Captive bred" lion hunting and say it is not your cup of tea. You might also add that our immediate gratification society has tainted hunters also. You just can't make it look good to folks that probably think killing anything and especially a Disney character is right.

Mark

quote:

You might also add that our immediate gratification society has tainted hunters also

I was waiting for someone to make this point...there is a lot of truth in there that hunters might not want to hear. Could it be that some hunters don't believe they have to put in the work like everyone else..that they are above the grind?

Point is Mark that it is not just anti-hunters or folks that probably think killing anything or a Disney character is bad . . . most folks, even many hunters, find the notion of raising an animal from a cub to adulthood in a pen then turning it loose for a few hours or a matter of days specifically for the purpose of having someone hunt the specific animal released, disconcerting if not borderline barbaric.

So what do we articulate as a reason for such hunts? The one offered is that captive-bred lion hunts preserve wild lions . . . so we hunt pen raised lions to preserve wild lions. Perhaps some will buy that but if they know anything about African trophy hunting they will be highly skeptical of such reasoning. Many of the folks doing captive-bred lion hunts are not candidates for wild lion hunts . . . whether as a result of the associated expense, the time commitment required, the limited prospects for success, other. So it is not like for every one captive-bred lion shot, a wild lion is saved. Not even close. That argument is disingenuous at best. Besides I think most people would simply say, just protect the wild lions and find another way to get your jollies as opposed to shooting a pen raised lion.

What other arguments exist for the practice? Like I said, help me understand what to say if a reasonable, open minded person that is not opposed to hunting asks about captive-bred lion hunting why it is something to be considered sporting, ethical, etc. If we cannot explain or articulate a rationale for it, that is telling in and of itself is it not. If the answer is that it is fun, and until it is illegal we intend to continue to do it, be prepared for it to become illegal and for sport hunting to be tainted in the process of making the argument. Live pigeon shoots used to be legal too . . . now I believe they are illegal in all but a handful of states.

[By the way, I am completely comfortable explaining to someone the rationale for and virtues of game ranching as is conducted in much of South Africa and Namibia. As I said before, I see a material difference between establishing herds of animals (which are not just allowed to breed and propagate but are expected to breed and propagate) on a property of reasonable size and out of which a handful of animals are taken on a managed basis and the put and take of captive-bred lions. In the former case, the animal has a chance to eat, live, breed, range, etc., in the latter case, from the time the animal is released its fate is preordained and measured in hours or days.]

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So it is not like for every one captive-bred lion shot, a wild lion is saved. Not even close. That argument is disingenuous at best. Besides I think most people would simply say, just protect the wild lions and find another way to get your jollies as opposed to shooting a pen raised lion.

So it is not like for every one WILD LOVABLE CRITTER OF YOUR CHOICE shot, a WILD LOVABLE CRITTER OF YOUR CHOICE is saved. Not even close. That argument is disingenuous at best. Besides I think most people would simply say, just protect the WILD LOVABLE CRITTERs OF YOUR CHOICE and find another way to get your jollies as opposed to shooting a WILD LOVABLE CRITTER OF YOUR CHOICE.

Once it starts with any animal, where will that logic cease to make sense?

I'm in no more support of shooting drugged lions that have been given no time to become wild anymore than you. But I'm also not inclined to paint all of the outfitters with such a broad brush. I'm far more inclined to identify and get rid of the bad operators than to end it all as I see the latter as the first of many dominoes to fall. As someone mentioned above, why is the only solution to throw the baby out with the bath water?

quote:

I'm in no more support of shooting drugged lions that have been given no time to become wild anymore than you. But I'm also not inclined to paint all of the outfitters with such a broad brush. I'm far more inclined to identify and get rid of the bad operators than to end it all as I see the latter as the first of many dominoes to fall. As someone mentioned above, why is the only solution to throw the baby out with the bath water?

At the pace the South Africans are moving to clean up this practice and get rid of the "bad operators" we will be arguing about this for decades. Policing our own, is becoming, turn your back and put your fingers in your ears and go la la la la...please go away!

Mike,
You're answer should be a simple one. NOT ALL CAPTIVE BRED LIONS HUNTS ARE CONDUCTED THIS WAY.

How many times do we have to reiterate this?

Captive Bred does not automatically mean:
Lions are drugged.
Released hours before hunters arrives.
Know where the lion is from the start of the hunt.

By the evidence within this thread, I am starting to wonder who is doing more damage to the industry. The uninformed anti-hunters, or the uninformed hunters....

quote:

Mike,
You're answer should be a simple one. NOT ALL CAPTIVE BRED LIONS HUNTS ARE CONDUCTED THIS WAY.

How many times do we have to reiterate this?

Captive Bred does not automatically mean:
Lions are drugged.
Released hours before hunters arrives.
Know where the lion is from the start of the hunt.

By the evidence within this thread, I am starting to wonder who is doing more damage to the industry. The uninformed anti-hunters, or the uninformed hunters....

Well said Marius
This is the message we need to be getting out there.

If you go to the SAPA website, they have a box at the top of the home page stating
"SAPA DOES NOT SUPPORT CANNED LION HUNTING"

http://www.southafricanpredatorassociation.org/

Guys pls don't confuse some of the stuff that you see on the internet with the truth, although there were some instances were lions and for that matter many other animals across the world being drug that in 99% of the cases it is not the case.... believe it or not but we do have laws in this country and each province is differed , I might be wrong but I believe the release period in the free state is 6 months north west is 4 days and so on no way you can keep a animal drug for that long I think we need to stop this BS where all we talk and read about is " drug lions" I have hunted allot of them and had some close calls more than once...

Mjines if you are at that cocktail party and those same folks who's dad might have being a hunter ask you about pheasants and quail that are being raised and released to be shot minutes before the hunters show up or that BIG GOLD MEDAL RED SATG in NEW Zeeland or that white tail on the 777 ranch or that BIG ELK on a game ranch in Colorado with that tattoo in the air what would the answer be? I am not trying to be insulting Sir my point I am trying to make is where do we draw the line??? I wish I can have a answer to that question...

So if this is truly about lion conservation, then I presume everyone is in agreement that the release period should be sufficient for the animal to become independent, join a pride, begin to range and establish its own territory, etc. That being the case, I guess everyone would support extending the release period to say twelve or eighteen months, perhaps even longer? Then there can be little question about the lion being drugged, habituated to humans, hunted in the immediate area of release and the like. Also gives the animal sufficient time to actually start to rebuild the wild lion population by breeding with other lions released in the same area. Phillip, Ian and Marius, I presume you are members of PHASA, how about calling for a mandatory minimum release period of at least a year or a year and a half?

Sorry Phillip, if you want someone to answer your question about put and take hunting it will have to be someone other than me.

MJines,

They have a 4 day release period in the NorthWest...where I believe most canned lion hunts take place. I'm quite confident that is plenty of time to become "acclimated" and "wild".



If you want the majority of hunters to take you guys seriously about reforming the captive-breed lion industry, you might want to try harder than 4 days...even 6 months is a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
MJines,

They have a 4 day release period in the NorthWest...where I believe most canned lion hunts take place. I'm quite confident that is plenty of time to become "acclimated" and "wild".



If you want the majority of hunters to take you guys seriously about reforming the captive-breed lion industry, you might want to try harder than 4 days...even 6 months is a joke.

Exactly

Do we ask how long a lion has been living in area in the wild before we can shoot him?

Can we not shoot one that is just passing through?

Do concession holders know which lions are living on their concessions, and not shoot any lion that crosses from another concession?

A wild lion moving from Hunting block to Hunting block or from Park to/from Hunting area is not the same as an animal raised in a breeding facility and placed in a hunting area 4 days before a hunt. One serves a conservation model and is critical to wild lions and their protection the other serves greed/gluttony

...and to MJines previous point, about having a canned Lion conversation with a non hunter...coincidentally, I had that very conversation with a Neighbor lady just yesterday. To make a long story short, her husband hunts deer/elk and she is by no means an anti-hunter. Very much the opposite, she knew I had been on a few safaris and just booked another, she wanted to talk about Cecil and canned lion hunting that she had seen on TV. I felt like running away to be honest. I did my best to shift the conversation to wild lion hunting and the tremendous benefit it does for the majority of Africa, but I could tell the damage had already been done.

quote:

Phillip, Ian and Marius, I presume you are members of PHASA

No Mike
I am not a member . I will not be a member of an association that bows to pressure from Anti hunters.

Namibia is going in the right direction. They have banned all hunting bans. That is how you deal with the green bastards. Not by trying to appease them.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So if this is truly about lion conservation, then I presume everyone is in agreement that the release period should be sufficient for the animal to become independent, join a pride, begin to range and establish its own territory, etc. That being the case, I guess everyone would support extending the release period to say twelve or eighteen months, perhaps even longer? Then there can be little question about the lion being drugged, habituated to humans, hunted in the immediate area of release and the like. Also gives the animal sufficient time to actually start to rebuild the wild lion population by breeding with other lions released in the same area. Phillip, Ian and Marius, I presume you are members of PHASA, how about calling for a mandatory minimum release period of at least a year or a year and a half?

Sorry Phillip, if you want someone to answer your question about put and take hunting it will have to be someone other than me.

Mike,
I'm all for a longer "wilding" period. I just don't want the wrong perception to be given regarding captive bred lions, and the generalization that all captive bred lions are drugged, newly released etc.
You are welcome to PM me, and I will inform you a bit more regarding the area we hunt our lions in SA. I will be happy to give you info on "wilding" periods etc. I just don;t think a public forum is the place to expose such information.

I resigned from PHASA this year. I fight for hunters, and not really into the "old boys" club thing.
I have done my part for hunting by putting my life at risk, chasing poachers during day and night. To me this carries more weight than signing proxies at some AGM.

Ian and Marius, even though neither of you are still members of PHASA you are both still in the hunting industry, what about a minimum release period of at least a year or a year and a half . . . you both support that?

It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer. We know why the industry does not want longer "wilding" periods, because they do not want the captive-bred lions to really become akin to wild lions. Longer release periods mean populations will likely expand, longer release periods mean other game animals will be killed and eaten, longer release periods mean that costs will rise, longer release periods mean that as the lions become acclimated the prospects of success will likely go down . . . in other words captive-bred lion hunts will actually become more like wild lion hunts. Can't have that.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

I'm in no more support of shooting drugged lions that have been given no time to become wild anymore than you. But I'm also not inclined to paint all of the outfitters with such a broad brush. I'm far more inclined to identify and get rid of the bad operators than to end it all as I see the latter as the first of many dominoes to fall. As someone mentioned above, why is the only solution to throw the baby out with the bath water?

At the pace the South Africans are moving to clean up this practice and get rid of the "bad operators" we will be arguing about this for decades. Policing our own, is becoming, turn your back and put your fingers in your ears and go la la la la...please go away!

I would agree that a comprehensive and consistent across RSA policy on regulation of captive bred lion hunting is long overdue. I hope that PHASA and SAPA will come together and work on this.

PHASA "distancing" themselves from it is nothing more than walking away from the issue, a false hope that it will appease the anti-hunters. In my opinion it won't appease them, quite the opposite, it will further embolden them. It will simply be the first of many cuts in the death of hunting by a thousand more.

A policy of appeasement did not work in 1930's Europe to stop Hitler, it strengthened him. The same will happen here.

quote:

Ian and Marius, even though neither of you are still members of PHASA you are both still in the hunting industry, what about a minimum release period of at least a year or a year and a half . . . you both support that?

Mike, the problem with any legislation is how do you police it? our police force cannot even handle their current workload. We have the highest crime rate in the world for a country not at war and see atrocities committed against citizens that are only seen in a genocide. Nobody gives a damn about the lions other than the hunters, green loby groups make a lot of money out of it, nothing else.

Bottom line, this change can only be driven by the hunters who pay for the service.
If you want to make a dent in it, vote with your wallet and make sure that the bad eggs go out of business.

I only offer wild cats from managed populations, or problem cats that are in conflict with farmers. These cats need to be utilized, and I know that the money generated will allow them to continue securing more wilderness to build sustainable habitat.
In the case of problem cats, we give farmers an incentive to stop poisoning prides.
In the last 2 years I have helped reduce poisoning in a large tract of land and now have farmers that no longer see it as a way of controlling the cats.
In most instances the cats taken on the farms pay for the entire years losses.

Now, if legislation is passed that restricts imports or our ability to sell these cats, everyone looses. And lions get poisoned again.

As was demonstrated by the LCTF, the very same researchers that were supposedly helping the hunters, used the information gathered from within the hunting community to stab them in the back.

They had us attacking each other in the most savage fashion, and then used a single decision by SCI as an excuse to justify their treacherous actions in labeling us as "unwilling to cooperate".

If you think that helping them again will end in a different result, good luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Ian and Marius, even though neither of you are still members of PHASA you are both still in the hunting industry, what about a minimum release period of at least a year or a year and a half . . . you both support that?

It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer. We know why the industry does not want longer "wilding" periods, because they do not want the captive-bred lions to really become akin to wild lions. Longer release periods mean populations will likely expand, longer release periods mean other game animals will be killed and eaten, longer release periods mean that costs will rise, longer release periods mean that as the lions become acclimated the prospects of success will likely go down . . . in other words captive-bred lion hunts will actually become more like wild lion hunts. Can't have that.

Mike, who says the industry does not want a longer "Wilding" period? Where do you get this? It seems your biggest issue is to understand that there can be a difference between a Captive Bred Lion and a Canned Lion. You seem to think that every hunt in SA, the Lion is drugged, released an hour before the hunter arrived.
Where we hunt them, the lions hunt for themselves, we have photos to prove it.They have even bred. These are all so called "Captive bred lions".
This is the model that I support. I DON"T support the drugged lion model, that has been released a day before the hunter arrives.

I have not had the bad feed back from people who have seen that my son has hunted a lioness. Maybe some people don't really know how to handle people out in public or any place as well as they think. The few that thought they knew the facts quickly changed there mind once they were set straight. So many on here think we should let this group or that group speak for us. They give them some money or go to some meetings. But those same guys fold or get so mad when it comes to telling the truth out of there own mouth to the general public.

WE as hunters turn tale and run on this animal(LION) which is no different then any other and we just lose one step more to the anti's. You don't need to like it but talking shit about other hunters because you don't like something is pure bs.


I did forget my ex wife did have some friends talk shit to her on facebook. There reason was they thought my son poached a lioness not that it was a raised lion. They thought all lion hunting was banned and illegal. So for all you guys who think they know what the general public is thinking I just laugh to myself. Most really don't have a clue or know anymore then me regular joe public person. We as hunters decide what the public thinks just like the antis make them think. The one group who does better with facts and info will win. Us fighting within helps which side I wonder.

Ever hunter has the duty to speak out for themselves not just let group like phasa,sci,dsc or the nra do all the talking. We all have a voice the public needs to hear so we look more like real people just not a group with a few talking heads.

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

Phillip, Ian and Marius, I presume you are members of PHASA

No Mike
I am not a member . I will not be a member of an association that bows to pressure from Anti hunters.

Namibia is going in the right direction. They have banned all hunting bans. That is how you deal with the green bastards. Not by trying to appease them.

So when can we go handgun hunting.in Namibia? Or is it banned?

Mike,

You know my position on "Captive Bred" lion hunting if it is done simulating a wild hunt and not some drugged lion release that day on paddock. I have my opinion and you obviously have yours and that's fine. The only thing further I would say is that only the very ignorant would think that these hunts have any effect on wild populations in any way. I don't think anybody particularly in the industry believes that killing a lion behind a high fence saves a wild lion.

Mark

Well, I finally opened this thread and read most of the posts...

I should have known better, I'll never get that time back.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

You know my position on "Captive Bred" lion hunting if it is done simulating a wild hunt and not some drugged lion release that day on paddock. I have my opinion and you obviously have yours and that's fine. The only thing further I would say is that only the very ignorant would think that these hunts have any effect on wild populations in any way. I don't think anybody particularly in the industry believes that killing a lion behind a high fence saves a wild lion.

Mark

So are you saying that captive-bred lion hunts have no redeeming value other than entertainment?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I don't think anybody particularly in the industry believes that killing a lion behind a high fence saves a wild lion.

Maybe but maybe not. If there's any real demand for lion bones in Asia that approaches the scale of rhino horn or ele ivory or grows into it, then I'd say the captive bred lions offer an alternative to wild lions.

http://africageographic.com/bl...can-lion-bone-trade/

https://blogs.scientificameric...wn/lion-bones-cecil/

Mike,

Can't you see I'm trying to back out of this discussion? I view all hunting as entertainment and I've been fortunate enough to do quite few different types of it.

Mark

There is some argument taking place as to if canned lion hunting somehow helps wild lions by taking the pressure off.

For the sake of a good argument..couldn't the opposite be true as well. If canned lion hunting didn't exist, wouldn't the demand for wild lion hunts increase dramatically, thereby raising prices and allowing more money to go to wild lion conservation and anti-poaching?

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I don't think anybody particularly in the industry believes that killing a lion behind a high fence saves a wild lion.

Maybe but maybe not. If there's any real demand for lion bones in Asia that approaches the scale of rhino horn or ele ivory or grows into it, then I'd say the captive bred lions offer an alternative to wild lions.

http://africageographic.com/bl...can-lion-bone-trade/

https://blogs.scientificameric...wn/lion-bones-cecil/

... well, the reality is that this is already happening. Bones from Captive Bred lion hunted, supply a demand in Asia. If there are no Captive bred lions, where will this demand come from?

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I don't think anybody particularly in the industry believes that killing a lion behind a high fence saves a wild lion.

Maybe but maybe not. If there's any real demand for lion bones in Asia that approaches the scale of rhino horn or ele ivory or grows into it, then I'd say the captive bred lions offer an alternative to wild lions.

http://africageographic.com/bl...can-lion-bone-trade/

https://blogs.scientificameric...wn/lion-bones-cecil/

... well, the reality is that this is already happening. Bones from Captive Bred lion hunted, supply a demand in Asia. If there are no Captive bred lions, where will this demand come from?

Particularly if that demand increases.

The argument has been made many times that the ban on rhino horn and elephant ivory trade be lifted. That if so, farmers/ranchers would be inclined to raise these animals to fuel that trade. That it would remove the black market that exists for those parts of the animals.

If that argument holds true for rhino and elephant, how does it not hold true for lions?