quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
yup driving by the place will give you all the knowledge you would need to make a good judgement on the hunt for sure.

Or because the Ph you know said it was so must be so. I just wonder why we lose ground to the anti's each day with logic like that.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:

When your opponent is destroying themselves, you sit back and let them. Fighting over methods is going just that.

Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to engage in practices that allow your opponents to use your very own practices as examples of why hunting is inhuman, why hunters are barbaric, etc.? If you really want to defeat your opponent why would you want to arm him with ammunition that can be used against you with the general public and the media?

To win the fight over sport hunting we need for the public to at least remain indifferent to sport hunting . . . we do not need to convince them that sport hunting is good, we only need to convince them that sport hunting is not bad and to leave it alone. I am sorry but the public at large is never going to find that raising a lion from a cub in pen then turning that lion loose for a few hours or days before someone paying thousands of dollars comes and whacks it is sporting, fair chase, conservation oriented or has any other socially redeeming value. So why encourage and perpetuate a practice that your opponents will simply use to say, "see we told you so, this is why we need to stop all hunting . . . hunters are a crass and inhuman group"? We have a tough enough fight as it is without handing our opponents examples of practices that they turn around and use against us to prove their case . . . which is precisely what captive-bred lion hunting is doing.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
Yes that sounds so smart lets get another group of know nothing people to help regulate hunting because it is raised. I am sure that will really help us out. The idea of adding anyone else to make more rules or have say on hunting rights just flat out sounds stupid to me.

Here in my home state of Minnesota, which is pretty "progressive" while the DNR certifies shooting preserves, there are no attempts to make you follow hunting rules or regulations. If I have the money and the desire, I can shoot 1000 pheasants in a day on a preserve. Taking the meat home does require a tag on it to prove that it was not wild shot (so it does not count against your bag limit or possession limit.) - and you don't need a hunting license to shoot on a preserve for released animals.

While the deer herd is managed by the DNR in the state, they are mainly involved to avoid mixing wild with tame. The only pheasant and duck hatchery I have visited was regulated by USDA not by USFWS.

I have shot fenced game more than once or twice, and as long as I felt it was something of an exercise in finding and killing the game, I was happy. Is hunting farmed pheasants as difficult as wild birds? No. the main thing is you know there are some there... I have shot reserve elk. Tasted mighty good on the plate, and I had fun hanging out with a group of good folks in "elk camp". Was it an actual wild elk hunt? No. but then again, I didn't necessarily kill the first animal I wanted to either.

In essence, the farmed animal was raised to be utilized just like the cow or whatever, it's just the method it gets to the table is a bit different.

Could there be issues with an ag group running game ranching? Sure, but it is logically consistent. However, I am not entirely certain that having a wild animal based bureaucracy works for them... look at the Dama gazelle/Arabian Oryx/Scimitar horned oryx issue in Texas a few years ago. They finally had to get the congress to put down some clowns calling a farmed population of animals endangered.

To me it's an idea that the stakeholders need to discuss and decide if it's worth pursuing. Just because it's logical doesn't mean it is what is worth pursuing.

quote:

I am beginning to think some of you may have voted for Clinton

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
This argument proves hunting is now fully post modern.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
So, you think that allowing USFWS to ban import of farm raised lion under the rubric of that they serve no role in wild populations is helpful?

I actually think that the ag people might be more logical... it's a product, it's paid for and why use a method that is intended to protect endangered species to ban a agricultural commodity?

While I have shot on a reserve, and really have no issue with canned hunting, I can see how it has been used to give a black eye to hunters by the unscrupulous.

I don't think you get that what population it comes from does make a difference. One can only take a certain amount of offtake and needs to have strong protections, the other is essentially market driven.

If we can convince the fence sitting group that captive reared animals are farm animals and we are treating them ethically, I cannot see any problems with captive hunting to the public at large. The caveat is convincing them that Simba on Disney is one of a feed lot cattle group equivalent. I think if the lion is wilded properly and given a chance to be a lion, most will accept it, even if they don't like it.

Face it, most don't want to face how that chicken nugget got into the McDonald's box either, but will accept it "just don't tell me about how it gets there when I am eating."

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
bcap, let's approach this another way. How do you define hunting? What constitutes ethical hunting in your mind? Is releasing a domesticated animal in a corral and shooting it "hunting"? I sort of doubt you would say that is hunting. Assuming that is the case, where do you draw the line, what are the attributes of a proper "hunt" in your mind?

I think what you are hearing from me is that taking a captive-bred animal, releasing it with the intention that it will be pursued and killed in a matter of hours or days is not hunting. The animal needs an opportunity to breed, propagate, range, evade pursuit, join existing herds or prides. That would be a start.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
This argument proves hunting is now fully post modern.

Interesting comment. You wonder what would a Pondoro Taylor, a George Rushby, a James Sutherland, a Jack O'Connor, a Harry Selby or other iconic hunters from years gone by think of practices like captive-bred lion hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
This argument proves hunting is now fully post modern.

Interesting comment. You wonder what would a Pondoro Taylor, a George Rushby, a James Sutherland, a Jack O'Connor, a Harry Selby or other iconic hunters from years gone by think of practices like captive-bred lion hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
bcap, let's approach this another way. How do you define hunting? What constitutes ethical hunting in your mind? Is releasing a domesticated animal in a corral and shooting it "hunting"? I sort of doubt you would say that is hunting. Assuming that is the case, where do you draw the line, what are the attributes of a proper "hunt" in your mind?

I think what you are hearing from me is that taking a captive-bred animal, releasing it with the intention that it will be pursued and killed in a matter of hours or days is not hunting. The animal needs an opportunity to breed, propagate, range, evade pursuit, join existing herds or prides. That would be a start.

See that is kind of tough for me. Mainly because I have and will again hunt raised pheasant/chukar that were stocked within hours of me hunting them.

Now would I want to hunt a lion like that. No I would not but for my a week out would work and yes longer would be better. I am for keeping it at a cost that more could enjoy the chance to hunt one. No based on that the tracking of that lion with my son was a fun hunt not easy but not as hard as chasing a elk out on public land in new mexico either.

Now here is the kicker that some may not understand. I would never hunt a sable in SA because they hang around feed and are rather easy to hunt in SA and I did not get that feeling doing the lioness. But I would never tell anyone not to hunt a sable if they wish to.

I guess a see a value to raised lions just like any other raised animal as it lets people hunt who may not be able to hunt one other wise. I am for keeping hunting going and are numbers up as a group. maybe a bad way to look at it but I will never over value and animal of any kind over the right to hunt it. I may not support them all but I would never put it down either taking the anti's side because I don't feel it is a hunt I would like.

I just really see it as giving in will equal nothing but bad for us as a group. There will always be a next animal to save and I would rather fight the fight now with out giving them one inch if I think it is perfect or not. You can only beat them with the same way of trying to stop them that they use to beat us. That to me equals not giving them anything as they never give us anything either.

I am all for anyone who wants to fight to make things better but fighting other hunters because it is something you may not look as a hunt is just bad in my eyes. We don't need to bash or talk down about hunting out in public and give the other side more power to run with something they know we are divide on. Just looks bad and shows a weakness on us they can use.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
bcap, let's approach this another way. How do you define hunting? What constitutes ethical hunting in your mind? Is releasing a domesticated animal in a corral and shooting it "hunting"? I sort of doubt you would say that is hunting. Assuming that is the case, where do you draw the line, what are the attributes of a proper "hunt" in your mind?

I think what you are hearing from me is that taking a captive-bred animal, releasing it with the intention that it will be pursued and killed in a matter of hours or days is not hunting. The animal needs an opportunity to breed, propagate, range, evade pursuit, join existing herds or prides. That would be a start.

See that is kind of tough for me. Mainly because I have and will again hunt raised pheasant/chukar that were stocked within hours of me hunting them.

Now would I want to hunt a lion like that. No I would not but for my a week out would work and yes longer would be better. I am for keeping it at a cost that more could enjoy the chance to hunt one. No based on that the tracking of that lion with my son was a fun hunt not easy but not as hard as chasing a elk out on public land in new mexico either.

Now here is the kicker that some may not understand. I would never hunt a sable in SA because they hang around feed and are rather easy to hunt in SA and I did not get that feeling doing the lioness. But I would never tell anyone not to hunt a sable if they wish to.

I guess a see a value to raised lions just like any other raised animal as it lets people hunt who may not be able to hunt one other wise. I am for keeping hunting going and are numbers up as a group. maybe a bad way to look at it but I will never over value and animal of any kind over the right to hunt it. I may not support them all but I would never put it down either taking the anti's side because I don't feel it is a hunt I would like.

I just really see it as giving in will equal nothing but bad for us as a group. There will always be a next animal to save and I would rather fight the fight now with out giving them one inch if I think it is perfect or not. You can only beat them with the same way of trying to stop them that they use to beat us. That to me equals not giving them anything as they never give us anything either.

I am all for anyone who wants to fight to make things better but fighting other hunters because it is something you may not look as a hunt is just bad in my eyes. We don't need to bash or talk down about hunting out in public and give the other side more power to run with something they know we are divide on. Just looks bad and shows a weakness on us they can use.

So is it wrong for there to be some minimum standard among hunters as to what constitutes a proper, ethical hunt? That a proper, ethical hunt must meet certain criteria? Or is it just left up to the individual standards of each hunter assuming it is legal? I think as a group we can and should aspire to more. I have no problem telling the person that wants to kill a domesticated animal in a corral that that is not hunting and that them calling what they are doing "hunting" is detrimental to the interests of the sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

....have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone. We are all blessed to enjoy the great outdoors.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

....have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone. We are all blessed to enjoy the great outdoors.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

....have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone. We are all blessed to enjoy the great outdoors.

Amen.

yes hope all have a safe thanksgiving and enjoy the day with family

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
bcap, let's approach this another way. How do you define hunting? What constitutes ethical hunting in your mind? Is releasing a domesticated animal in a corral and shooting it "hunting"? I sort of doubt you would say that is hunting. Assuming that is the case, where do you draw the line, what are the attributes of a proper "hunt" in your mind?

I think what you are hearing from me is that taking a captive-bred animal, releasing it with the intention that it will be pursued and killed in a matter of hours or days is not hunting. The animal needs an opportunity to breed, propagate, range, evade pursuit, join existing herds or prides. That would be a start.

See that is kind of tough for me. Mainly because I have and will again hunt raised pheasant/chukar that were stocked within hours of me hunting them.

Now would I want to hunt a lion like that. No I would not but for my a week out would work and yes longer would be better. I am for keeping it at a cost that more could enjoy the chance to hunt one. No based on that the tracking of that lion with my son was a fun hunt not easy but not as hard as chasing a elk out on public land in new mexico either.

Now here is the kicker that some may not understand. I would never hunt a sable in SA because they hang around feed and are rather easy to hunt in SA and I did not get that feeling doing the lioness. But I would never tell anyone not to hunt a sable if they wish to.

I guess a see a value to raised lions just like any other raised animal as it lets people hunt who may not be able to hunt one other wise. I am for keeping hunting going and are numbers up as a group. maybe a bad way to look at it but I will never over value and animal of any kind over the right to hunt it. I may not support them all but I would never put it down either taking the anti's side because I don't feel it is a hunt I would like.

I just really see it as giving in will equal nothing but bad for us as a group. There will always be a next animal to save and I would rather fight the fight now with out giving them one inch if I think it is perfect or not. You can only beat them with the same way of trying to stop them that they use to beat us. That to me equals not giving them anything as they never give us anything either.

I am all for anyone who wants to fight to make things better but fighting other hunters because it is something you may not look as a hunt is just bad in my eyes. We don't need to bash or talk down about hunting out in public and give the other side more power to run with something they know we are divide on. Just looks bad and shows a weakness on us they can use.

So is it wrong for there to be some minimum standard among hunters as to what constitutes a proper, ethical hunt? That a proper, ethical hunt must meet certain criteria? Or is it just left up to the individual standards of each hunter assuming it is legal? I think as a group we can and should aspire to more. I have no problem telling the person that wants to kill a domesticated animal in a corral that that is not hunting and that them calling what they are doing "hunting" is detrimental to the interests of the sport.

May not be wrong to have a standard but dam near impossible to get one that all will agree to. I think we both enjoy hunting and believe are points are right so who is right.

So lets get your take on this. Say we give in and ban raised lions. 1- do you really think the antis will stop at that. 2- when the next animal is say leopard. Do you think they are going to stop when we tell them they are wild animals and are dollars save them from poaching.3 when they come after the cute zebra or giraffe you think the public looks at them differently then a lion and will just say oh it is alright they gave in on the raised lions let them alone now.

Or maybe when they see we will defend are rights and support all hunting that is legal they may just get they are in for a fight and back down like they do so often.

All that said that does not mean we can not work within our group of hunters to make it better. But with out talking shit to each other in public

quote:

barbaric and sick

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Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

barbaric and sick

That is exactly what antis think of all hunting.

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Originally posted by Saeed:
My fear is fully realized now!

See where all this is leading to?

And anyone who even DREAMS of thinking that those who do participate in farm bred and canned lions hunts are duped to do it is kidding himself!

They KNOW full well what they are getting into.

They are the same sort of people who would drive to a pen in the US and shoot a farm bred elk for instance.

Let us leave it to the individual to decide how and what he wishes to hunt.

I was invited on a pheasant hunt in England years ago, I had great funh that day.

But I found that is not the sort of hunting I wish to do again.

I will not start to scream against it, but I won't do it.

Now we are going to have some here telling us that a pheasant and an elk is not the same as a lion, and good luck to them.

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In reality...there is nothing morally/ethically wrong with someone shooting a farm raised lion on a farm if they just want a lion mount.

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

In reality...there is nothing morally/ethically wrong with someone shooting a farm raised lion on a farm if they just want a lion mount.

There might be an argument for ethics on the grounds that canned lion hunts are used against us and often times free range lion hunting is thrown under the bus in the same argument. The general masses have a hard time making the distinction . I had this discussion with a neighbor lady just the other day...when I tried to argue the difference, she was quick to throw us all back in the same category as "hunters". It was frustrating and she is no anti hunter. Her husband hunts deer/birds/elk. She accepted the fact that safari hunting was good for the all the animals in the hunting areas, but canned lion hunting was something she couldn't understand. It didn't fit her understanding of hunting used for conservation. Without telling my neighbor to piss off...what should I have said to her?

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Next time you argue with your lady neighbor see if she ever wears a fancy piece of leather clothing. Steer/lion...all animal utilization.

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Next time you argue with your lady neighbor see if she ever wears a fancy piece of leather clothing. Steer/lion...all animal utilization.

Absolutely she does..she is no anti hunter or vegetarian...she asked me to shoot some of the coyotes around the area this winter as there have been some Yote vs Dog stuff going on this summer..I think she's going to ask why raise a lion to shoot, if you don't want it considered hunting? Kinda paradox there..NO?

Another way to look at it is..cows, sheep, chickens..ect. are used for food and other products in a non wasteful way. Animals are hunted for either food or conservation purposes but canned lion really doesn't fit into either. It's not really hunting and serves no agricultural purpose. A grey area that is hard to argue in

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Lane,

....there isn't anyone on this forum that I have more respect for than you...but you want me to tell the neighbor lady we raise Lions to shoot for crocodile food?

The sheriff will be along to do a welfare/safety check on me by the end of the day...