Vincent R,

I am glad you had a pleasant buffalo hunting experience.

Regarding the 45-70, it seems that you are heavily qualifying use of the 45-70 on buffalo. All here agree that it will kill buffalo. So will a 7.62 x 39.

But there seems to be a disagreement whether is is a good choice for use on buffalo, because if the first shot is not well placed (it happens), or if the buff was already wounded by another, or if the buff charges before you shoot, etc., the 45-70 may not be ideal.

Quote:
"He got up and launched himself at me but ran into another 540gr Garrett Hammerhead at about 65 yards and below the neck betwen the front legs and chest "exiting" out his left rear ham knocking the Buff down and dead!"

Spelled out:
He shot the buff. He broke both shoulders. It went down. It got up. It charged him. He shot it again. Bullet went into the Buff's chest. Bullet passed through the animal. Bullet exited the animal. Animal fell down dead.

Please explain how this could NOT be ideal?!?

My suggestion is for those who believe the .45-70 lever-action with whatever bullet you want to use is the right choice for Cape buffalo is to go ahead and do it. You have the right to your opinion; you shouldn't ask anyone else's opinion if you're not prepared to hear it.

Those who don't believe it is the right choice have the right to their opinion, too.

When I win the raffle, I'll give you my report on the platform's performance.

Now, can we drop this debate, and get back to talking about African hunting?

George

[ 08-24-2002, 20:25: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

I second George's motion!

It's time for this subject to "ride off into the sunset."

Vince,

Been following this controversy for some time now, and there is no way you will convince anyone at this thread that what you did represents anything more than a stunt.

I have personally not shot at DG and really cannot add to your posts other then to say great job!

If I should luck out and win this raffle, I too will down a Cape Buff with a lowly 45/70.

Your report of having the 540 Grain Hammerhead drive through both shoulders and exit should say something for the load you were shooting.

I know you are looking forward to winning this raffle, but thanks for buying entries so that "MY TRIP" will be fully paid for. HI

Roger QSL

I think the key word in the question of this thread is

GOOD

That's answer enough. Not mediocre, average, occasionally acceptable.

[ 08-26-2002, 20:07: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

45-70's with cast bullets have killed the big 5.

Eskimos have used .222's with 50 grain soft points to kill polar bears.

Guys
This thread for me has been a lot of fun. I truly have learned an awful lot amd respect 99% of the opinions voiced here.
For me, after a lot of time, effort, training and money, i succeeded in my dream and quest. I wish each one of you the luck and good fortune to accomplish the exact same dream in the maner that YOU WISH! If I can help in any way, it would be my pleasure. In the mean time,I have just received my AMERICAN CITIES so that I can get my full body Leopard mount back home! After this shipment of 8 animals arrives and is installed in my trophy room, I will keep my fingers crossed until the next shipment arrives (Elephant, Hippo, Rhino, and full bodied Lion along with about 20 other assorted critters)!
Again, for me it is my Brockman/Marlin in 45-70 Garrett Cartridges Hammerheads in 420gr and 540gr. For YOU, it will be YOUR RIFLE, YOUR CARTRIDGE, YOUR EFFORT, and YOUR DREAM! Again, if I can help in any way, ring my bell!
Vince

[ 08-26-2002, 21:56: Message edited by: VincentR ]

Originally posted by 500grains:
45-70's with cast bullets have killed the big 5.
Is this still a wonder to you? Have you figured it out yet?

Eskimos have used .222's with 50 grain soft points to kill polar bears.

This is no different then what our resident respected expert Atkinson has done, using small bore rounds on African DG. They used what was available, not because they figured it was best.
The answer sometimes used to justify a small bore on DG is that the shooter is a fine shot. Well, thanks. Eskimos can shoot quite well, their survival most times depends on shooting well.

Comparing the 222 to the 45-70 is quite a desperate move. Perhaps they may have simular fpe if we use the old 'trapdoor' loads, but absolutely no one here actually believes a heavy 458 calibur bullet has simular momentum then a 50 grain 223 bullet, but perhaps just you. BTW we're actually talking about modern loads in a 45-70, not the old 'trapdoor' loads. ~~~Suluuq

Rusty Gunn,

Have you shot game with a 45-70?

So we can take that as a "No"?

I think a hot loaded 45-70 lever like the Marlin would be a cool gun to take to Africa (not that I'll ever be able to go), but I think it's more of a challenge, like that guy with the long bow, jeez talk about balls!
If you're worried about the animal suffering then I have these thoughts: Tranq the critter first, or use a 35mm laser guided canon, or a 35mm Cannon (camera). I personally feel horrible if I wound an animal (except bugs. But you have to have some sort of challenge right? If you actually hunted with a laser guided cannon it wouldn't be much of a sport, and hunting with a .22 would just be cruel, so something of a balance is needed, right? A hot loaded lever may be on the light side and not too accurate, but look at it as being on the challenging side, like the guy with the bow.

Okay, I get it. The last guy to post on this thread wins some sort of prize right?

[ 08-28-2002, 21:56: Message edited by: mickey ]

Well I think I was three hundred. What kind of a prize do I get for that? Bryan

Uncle!

Are you guys going to agree to disagree, or are we headed to Match King hell?

Amen, brother!

Gunn,

I think it was a legitimate question. Perhaps you might be able to bring your hunting experience with the 45/70 to our discussion. Your observations on bullet performance, penetration on bone, hide, wound channel, things like that. A simple yes or no would suffice if you did not wish to elaborate.

You certainly did not mind sharing your shooting of a Grizzly. No easy feat by any means!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

HI,

Now I am laughing, Rusty Gunn remind these lever haters to look at what MR. Ricks just post about his lever and how it handles high pressures with big bad rounds.I think he knows a little more about guns than anyone here does, I hope 500 grains looks at his post and learns.I have posted here for a long time now about how a win86 or 71 can shoot big rounds and they can handle the oal and pressure and have gotten nothing but trouble. I have look into this a long time and now I am happy to see MR. Ricks with his lever which shows it can be done, I am have a 50-110 and it will push some very heavy big .510 at around 2100 fps, a 570 grain in fact.So let the lever haters carry on with they fasle facts. Kev

Kev,
Ya better reread Rick's posts. It seems the only round that he has fired in the prototype Marlin 1895 modified rifle is some kind of proof load. And it looks like his is going to use a mod. 71 for his project rifle. There have been no reports of chornographed series of velocities to support the 2100-2200 FPS hopes of what the rifle will do.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

HI,

Rusty no you should I was talking about a win 86 or a 71. I am having a win86 it will be in a 50-110 and MR. Ricks also said a 71 is a better way to go, as I have been stating for a long time. I said and still say that I will get a 525 grain out of my 86 to go 2200 fps and a 570 grain around 2100 fps. I think MR. Ricks and I are on the same page, I never mention anything of a marlin and MR. Ricks also said he likes the 71 also, just like I've been saying for the last year.The win86 has had a 50-110 chambered in it for around 100 years with black powder and now with stronger matterals and that the design of the 86 and 71, which are strong to start with, you will see more rounds beening chambered in them, as they can handle them. Thanks,Kev

Kev,
When you and Rick start throwing bullets out the ends of whatever lever action you are going to use and get (b)REAL CHRONOGRAPH RESULTS(/B) let us know!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

HI.

OLD news already has been done, MR. Sundles of BBA has work loads with his 50-110 from MR. Clay and data will be sent with my rifle.In fact he has posted a load on MT,he give a load for a 525 grain bullet going 2150 fps and informed me I may even get a few more grains in that load. I feel I will not have to, Thanks,Kev

Kev,
Sorry mate, but perhaps you should reread my previous post.

When you and Rick get some REAL CHRONOGRAPH VELOCITIES post them! Project and prototypes are just that, until you get substantial data, ya just hanger fly'n!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 09-13-2002, 00:51: Message edited by: Rusty ]

Rusty Gunn,

No one is trying to indict you.

I just wondered whether you had a long history of successfully using the 45-70 on buffalo and such, or whether you were just describing to us what you read in articles.

By the way, I suggest not citing Mr. Seyfried as a proponent of using the 45-70 on buffalo for the common man. At least send him a letter to ask if that is what he means.

Gentlemen,

I have a couple 50-110 loads that I have used in the past with Woodleigh 535 gr, soft points.

94.5gr IMR 4064 - MV 2097 fps (heavily compressed)

92gr IMR 3031 - MV 2132 fps (heavily compressed)

Both loads were not very accurate in my rifle, which is a Ruger No1. I would also like to say that I have no idea what the pressure was on either load, but the there were significant pressure signs ie flattened and smeared primers. By heavily compressed I mean the cases are essentially filled with powder and then the bullet is seated. This represents about a 25% compressed load.

The best load I have for my 50-110 is

81.5gr IMR 3031 - MV 1870 fps ( 10 % compressed)

This load is also using the 535 gr Woodleigh.

I use magnum primers with all these loads. The barrel length is 24".

The velocities are averaged from 10 shot chronographed strings. I do not believe you can get 2200 fps with this bullet weight and case.

Axel

[ 09-08-2002, 22:32: Message edited by: Axel ]