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quote:Mike...you are certainly welcome to twist the meaning of my post as you see fit, if it supports your argument. Sarcasm, right? Just remember, this info is not mine, but Seyfried's, and plenty of shooters/hunters who use HC LBT style bullets. I learned of it, and thus share it. Plenty of folks here have never shot DG, but do learn of it here. And they tell other's what they learned. How am I different? Their (the HC folks) experiences may not mimic the experiences of you folks, but they do have merit none the less. I don't understand the anomosity towards a round that already has proven itself, well beyound what even they expected of it. Its by no means going to replace anything already used, but it does offer an alternive to those willing to try it. What could be wrong with that? Just because a bullet goes 2,000 fps or less, and not 2,400 or faster, doesn't mean it all of a sudden lost momentum. BTW I do recall Atkinson saying he likes the 375 H&H down-loaded some, not at 2,400 fps. Is this the sarcasm you were getting at? ~~~Suluuq [ 08-21-2002, 11:57: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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Suluuq You have obviously read my post the wrong way, not just wrong but "opposite" No sarcasm in that post in terms of you views. As I said the 45/70 Lever Gun is treading on holy ground but to a lesser extent than the 378, 416 and 460 Wbys as well as the 375 Ultra. Vertical stack magazine is the same and as RAB did say in an earlier post, vertical stack removes the mystery and pricing Mike [ 08-21-2002, 12:02: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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quote:I stand corrected. Please accept my apology. We don't hear much about down-loading much here, it almost has to be 2,400 fps or more to mean something. This is what led me to think you were using sarcasm, because of the speds of a 45-70 vs larger cartridges, and you're views on down-loading. Sorry if I misundersttod you. ~~~Suluuq [ 08-21-2002, 12:23: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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RAB, Mike What about the rotary mags on the old M-S bolt actions? I believe they had a very good repution for reliability in Africa, but I don't recall this action ever being touted for a DGR. Is there a reason for that? Peter | |||
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Suluuq, I was editing as you posted. My father was like other Australian soldiers that were shooters who went to WW11. Like other many other Austalian soldiers in WW11 he was at Australias very North and also the islands above Australia. At that time they were young blokes and shot the place up with 303 Mark VII ammo. So a bit later rules came in that anything over 2000 f/s was banned in the Northern Territory. In other words, 32/20 and 44/40 were legal. This changed a few years later. My father was always of the view that the 44/40 worked real well on the buffalo. He also held that view right to his end. I think it is reasonable to say that most of the buffalo shot over the years has been with 303, 308 and 44/40. As I said in an earlier post, I can only draw on pig and kangaroo size animals, but I do know with those animals, that you see funny things. I am convinced that the combination of bullet shape and velocity is a big thing. I also believe that the noise of the gun is a factor. In short, if someone tells me that the 32/20 kills better than the 338, I will listen. If someone tells me that the 223 necked up to 30 caliber kills better than 30/06 or 30/378, I will listen. Mike | |||
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Peter, One thing might be that if bullet noses were damaged, the cartridges might not come up. But I think it really all comes down to the Mauser actions were avaiable and did the job. I think you also have to keep in mind that back in those days there was lots of animals shot and no one animal was a big deal. I and other Australians see this with bullet and gun selection for deer in America as compared to how we are in Australia. I imagine back in the older days those blokes in Africa would have been shooting animals like we shoot roos and pigs. When that happens you tend to judge something over course of time rather than on an individual shot or two. You see a similar thing with Saeed. Contrary to popular advice he is using a wildcat to shoot in Africa. Last time he used Matchkings in 30 caliber. But he is shooting a lot, and hence his views will be different to the person geared up to shoot only a few animals. Mike | |||
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Suluuq, Americans seem to be more likely to be guided by factory figures and reloading manuals etc. and that is why tye always call a lawyer in. If it is the Hornady manual or some other written material, Americans tend to think that must mean it is right. On the other hand, Australians tend to think if it is the Hornady manual or some other written material, then it must be wrong ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Mike | |||
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quote:Everyone has something they've learned, and thus like to share it. If it goes against what they thought was certain, then they make sport of it. I imagine some folks will take your father's experiences with the 44-40 on buffalo (I assume the Australian version) and, using sarcasm, declare it the perfect DG round, bar none. They done it to the 45-70 a few times, making fun of it. What they don't understand, they have to distance themselves from. They can't seem to cope with alternitives. Slightly related to what you're saying, my sweety's oldest brother uses a 243 on polar bear every year (we're Alaskan Native, and can hunt them here), with multiple bears taken each year. His experiences tell him its a fine round for this. He once got ahold of my 358 Win due a horse trade with their sister, which was a gift to him, but never used it. Instead, he asked for more 243 ammo. We eventually got the 358 back. He prefers to use whats been successful with him, and what he can shoot best with. Nothing magic about the round, but it does fine for him. I imagine some will likely make sport of the 243, and me, for telling of how it's been used on polar bears. We'll likely get scolded. Its just another way to distance themselves from what they don't understand. They don't want to look foolish advocating "alternitives to the norm". Supporting what is "normal" is a safe place to be, less they find themselves experiencing "the other side of the coin", the unpopular side. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Supporting what is "normal" is a safe place to be It use to be said that no one got fired for ordering IBM gear. How times change. Mike | |||
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Weren't most of the 44/40s being used on water buffalo in the NT being shot from the back of a horse, landrover or landcruiser???????? | |||
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John, I think that is the case, except there were no landcruisers then and I think it was horse and Jeep, same as for 303. Would not have been many Land Rovers around either But does it matter where the bullet was launched from. Mike [ 08-21-2002, 14:48: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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quote:I read this twice but could not find the word 'yes' or 'no', so I still don't know the answer to my question. | |||
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500 grains, I think his answer was "No" ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} However, with the number of buffalo and elephant that you have shot, would you base caliber and bullet design on those animals you shot or factor in other ingredients. Mike | |||
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Mike, There is are some criteria for dangerous game rifles generally accepted by both the PH fraternity and experienced dangerous game hunters. 1. bullet weight of at least 400 grains 2. sectional density of at least .300 3. muzzle velocity of at least 2150 fps For end to end penetration on buffalo, or complete head penetration on elephant, increase velocity to 2400 and increase sectional density to .330. In addition, bullet construction is critical, as you know, so I won't go into that. When someone advocates a cartridge remarkably below those ballistics, such as a 45-70 pushing a not-too-tough lead bullet at 1550 fps, he's got some explaining to do. And I have not heard a good explanation yet. Personally I have not pushed the lower end of the envelope, so I have no personal experience on what succeeds as a minimum caliber for buffalo and elephant and what fails. My personal hunting ethics include respect for the animal and consideration of the lives of the PH, trackers and local villagers who will be put at risk if I make a mistake. I certainly do not want my mistake to be selection of an underpowered round that lacks penetration, or a bullet that is either too soft or too brittle to make it through bone as strong as a landcruiser frame. Thanks for listening. ___ Forgot to say that someone might get torqued that the .375 does not fit the above requirements. The .375 is generally accepted as a client rifle, but it does not cut the mustard on marginal shots that the 416's and 404's can pull off. [ 08-21-2002, 16:06: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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Mike the reason the "platform" used for hunting potentially dangerous large game is that a horse can run away a lot faster when the inadequate calibre and rifle fails. And I understand this occurred a lot with 44/40s and .303s. Also mulitple shots were often required by the professional buff shooters. Easier when you can gallop away and then return to shoot again. And a jeep or rover is not as soft as a man on his own two feet. Even a horse - the horse can take the pounding with the rider often if he is lucky escaping. A comparison is the hunting of lions from horseback with leveractions (.405s) in Kenya. If they failed they galloped away and then returned to shoot again. | |||
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John, I was thinking that one reason the "platform" might have been different was that with the height the spine shot might have been more the go. For what it is worth. I am 54 and of course grew up with guns. When I would have been about 15 I got my father to buy Outdoors. Till this day I have neer failed to buy an issue of Sporting Shooter.....a sort of tradition. But...when I first started to read the things, I can remember so clearly my father talking about "bullshit" with articles that started to appear on buffalo. But I suspect that they were shooting buffalo like a pro roo shooter shoots roos. And I guess 303 Mark VII ammo would do the job. Mike | |||
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500grains, Is it at all possible that 2400 f/s is the good number and things drop off as you go down to 2000 and then it gets better at 1600 or 1700 so that there are two good numbers. I don't know, just raising something for discussion since this type of thing happen with other targets. I am thinking here of what seems like a peak at about 2800 or so and then a fall off as speed is increased. I have shot the 218 Bee and 222 and the 303/270 and 270 more than enough to see that theshold. Of course the animals are totally different, but funny things happen with bullets and even buffalo. Mike | |||
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Mike I agree. I am sure water buffalo and even cape buffalo can be and have been shot with 303s, 308s, 30-06s, 44/40s etc etc. Indeed if you read the hunting magazines from only 10 years ago or earlier a lot of hunters went hunting with their favourite 30-06 with 220 gr solids, 308s once I read with 190 gr Match HPs!!!. Back then and earlier NO ONE used 375s, 458s etc on them. I remember advice used to be a lot of people used the 300 H&H. But these same articles also mentioned wounding buffs which ran away. The "hunters" then just continued and looked for another. I think Col Allisons young son in an article shot a buff with a 240 Wby Mag. This shot was a brain shot. I went hunting buff while on a fishing trip for barramundi with a 30-06 with 220 gr Norma solids, a mate had a 12 gauge semi auto shotgun with slugs and another mate a 6.5x55 with mil solids. Unfortunately the property we were on had been shot out (it was an abandoned station) and we never met up with buff. But I'm sure with careful shots we could have dropped it. (I did like it when my friend with the shotty was beside me - not so cool when in a swamp knee deep kilometres away by myself). But when using smaller than ideal cartridges, shooting from a vehicle (or horse) is a lot safer. PS I think a lot of pro-shooters liked the spine shot as in the tropical heat the skin and meat stayed fresher longer (ie the animal took a while to die while they shot some more). [ 08-21-2002, 17:06: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ] | |||
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Maybe you guys could get Saeed to start a new forum for this thread, you must have reached some kind of record! | |||
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John, I was about 18 when I got a Sako 270. My father had a Don Black 270 on an M17. Back then, about 1966 or so, the 270 was seen as a real cannon. But 375s and 458s were about. I bought an M70 375 from Mick Smiths about 1970 and a 458 M70 around 1972 or so and had a 460 Wby in about 1974 or so. I think it was then about the same as now, that is, most use of big guns was on roos, pigs. Keith Herron had all the 375 and 458 Hornadys in stock and of course the Pecar scopes. Time for me to got to bed as I will start to rant about the years gone by Mike | |||
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To answer the original question "are lever actions a good choice for dangerous game rifle" Maybe. (I wanted to be the 300th) Bryan | |||
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Mike, You suggested that 2400 may be a good velocity, 2000 a poor one, but things may get better again at 1600. There is ample anecdotal evidence and some ballistics testing that show when bullets are pushed substantially above 2400 fps in game things tend to come apart. Even monometal solids start to break apart when you get to the higher end of the range of the 416 wby and 460 wby. However, I do not know of any law of physics which would make 2400 and 1600 sweet spots in the velocity continuum while 2000 fps would be a sour spot. More likely the one ballistics tests we have heard of with the 45-70 were flawed. Wet newsprint penetration tests mean nothing as they are not repeatable. Ballistic gelatin tests mean nothing as ballistic gelatin does not in any way approximate heavy bone of buffalo and elephant. Probably hardwood boards spaced 1" apart are a better test, but field results on game are better. Remember that the 458 win mag earned a lousy reputation with a 500 grainer at 1900 to 2000. I do not understand why reducing the velocity by another 400 fps would improve the situation. Someone might suggest it because a flat point bullet will be used. Well, a flat point bullet can be used in any gun. But it does not make up for the severe velocity shortfall. As for lever guns, I think you and I agree that they can jam up worse than a cheap fishing reel when the going gets tough. | |||
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quote:My POINT (which you never seem to get) is that you continuously quote sources who make claims regarding bullet/round/rifle's effectiveness, but almost NONE of those sources has used that bullet/round/rifle on thick-skinned African dangerous game. You may buy into their claims/opinions, but the rest of us don't. George P.S. As far as I know, Garrett, Taffin, Pearce, and Linebaugh have never hunted Africa. | |||
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500 Grains, Just curious, where did you get data to substantiate your statement that, "As for lever guns, I think you and I agree that they can jam up worse than a cheap fishing reel when the going gets tough". Are you stating for a fact that Lever Rifles jam more than controlled feed bolts or side by sides. Have you heard the term "Stovepipe"? Even the most professionally made rifles will jam when excitement or pressure causes the hunter to work the action in such a way as to not completely cycle the cases out of battery. Not being argumentive here, just wondering where your getting your data. Roger QSL | |||
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HI, TO 500 GRAINS, I have told you befor I am getting a 50-110 in a win 86. I just talk to my gunsmith, MR. Dave Clay and he has reloading data that has been work on by MR. Sundles, BBA. I will get a 525 grain at 2150 fps, but can get more to around 2200 fps, and with my muzze brake I will have around 50 fps added so it will be around 2200fps with MR. Sundles load anyway. I will take your advice and go with a heavier grain bullet. I will get a custom mould for a 570 grain, but will also get a 550 grain for now. That will give me a .302 SD with the 550 grain bullet and I will get 2100 fps with it. This qualifieds it for dangerous game according to your own list.The 570 grain bullet in a 50-110 will have a SD of .313, which is even better, but I must say I may only get between 2000- 2100 fps with it, I do not think a animal will know the differents.I just thought this will make a great Dangerous game round out of a lever. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Kev, How much longer before you get that rifle from DRC? George | |||
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Hi, George, I talk to MR. Clay and he said I should see it late Sept. or early Oct, I am looking forward to see it.I also ask him about pressure and said the 525 grain at 2150 fps is under 50,000psi around 47,000 or 48,000 psi. I ash him it the action is strong enough and he said yes, that it could handle up to 55,000 psi.I would not try to push anything that high just to be safe, but he said the action on the win 86, new guns are very strong a lot stronger than most people realize.I just order some 570 grain GS Custom FN's and will try them too. I have to order a custom mould for a 570 grain HC as no one has that heavy of a weight bullet in .510,I will then send it to Cast performance and they will make me bullets. That will be a long time as the gentleman who makes the moulds has a great deal of back orders, story of my life. I will try some 550 grains from Cast Performace as I believe they said they have a mould for that weight. Thanks,Kev | |||
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Just a note... its not just 1,600 fps, and thats all. Its a 540 grainer at 1,600, not a 420, which goes 2,000 easily. That 540 grainer at 1,600 has a lot of momentum. DG has been taken with this round, at this speed, using the momentum generated. The design of the LBT HC bullet works best at 2,000 fps or less, right where the 45-70 shoots at. I can't figure out why some would have us believe the momentum of a 540 grainer at 1,600 fps is dwelling on worthless, when it has been proven to work just fine. This may not be what is considered normal fare, but it works, and it does so beyound the doubts given here. Given both sides have debated their views to the hilt, I suppose we at least agree to disagree, and get on with something else. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Kev, Let us know how that rifle does at the range. It will be interesting. Of course, I am still not convinced that a cast lead bullet will cut the mustard against heavy bone, but you could get some monolithic brass for serious stuff. QSL, I have owned Marlin, Winchester and Savage levers and any of them will jam. My 2 Marlin 45-70's were especially bad with flat nose bullets. And when they jam, it's time to get out the pocket knife and start prying around. A shooter using a CRF bolt who short strokes his bolt may not eject the case. But he can just yank the bolt back again and the case is out. Generally I have found it to take little time to unjam a bolt. | |||
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Rusty Gunn, I encourage you to attend the SCI convention in Reno in January 2003, and to go on to hunt Africa. I think you will really enjoy yourself. | |||
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500 Grains, Sounds as if you have had a lot more expeience with levers than I have. I've only owned two. A Browning 71, that I had rechambered to 450 Alaskan, and A Marlin Stainless Guide Gun in 45/70. To be honest, I've not had a jam in either. I have not however fired pure lead slugs through either of them. All the bullets I loaded or bought were jacketed. I also have not hunted dangerous game with either of them. This mode of hunting could possibly cause jamming in the best of guns. I will be trying flat nosed, hard lead slugs in the future and will try to cycle as rapidly as possible to duplicate real shooting situations. I do plan on winning the Raffle, so a good heavy 45/70 lead load will be used. HI Roger QSL | |||
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Time to add a little more to the length of this thread! My neighbor stopped in today, one of his pulling ox died and he wanted to know if I could bring the front end loader over and bury it. A lightbulb went off as I said sure. I didnt have any hammerheads or other fancy bullets, but I did have some 550 grn Lymans on hand. I loaded them into my 458x2" mauser, one across the chrony said 1680 fps, close enough. I dug a hole, and with nobody around, propped the old boy up. I lined up both shoulders, not blades, but the bones, and sat down about 20 paces away and fired. It had no trouble breaking both shoulders and exited. I couldnt do a chest shot, but fired between the neck and shoulder, I "missed" in that it came out foreward of the opposite hip, as it was mostly air in there, it doesnt tell much. My next shot I put through the shoulderblade angled for the back leg, which it appears to have broke,( felt like it,while trying to move the leg) but no exit. As I didnt really want to get caught shooting a dead ox by the neighbors, I finished my job and left. Now, dead tissue isnt the same as live, but bones are bones, and that old boy was well over a ton, a good 1/3 biger then most buff you'll meet. Have fun with this info, of whatever use it is! | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
That last post sounds grotesquely similar to the barrel of animal entrails shooting that other guy was doing some time back. It would seem we have moved from a troll invasion on this forum to a ghoul invasion. Since an ox is simply a castrated bull I do not believe he is all that much bigger than any other bovine. I have seem bison far in excess of a ton and buffalo as well. Perhaps a zoo would donate a recently deceased buffalo for you the experiment on next. | ||
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| <VincentR> |
TSJ Your results with the dead ox were almost exactly like mine with a "LIVE" Cape Buffalo. I used my Marlin LEVER action rifle with 45-70 CALIBER 540gr Garrett Cartridges Hammerheads at about 80 yards for the first shot broadside. I hit what I aimed at, the left front shoulder. The bullet went completely through and exited after breaking both shoulders and knocking the Buff down. He got up and launched himself at me but ran into another 540gr Garrett Hammerhead at about 65 yards and below the neck betwen the front legs and chest "exiting" out his left rear ham knocking the Buff down and dead! Elk Man, Rusty, Sefried, Garrett and others are very right. Employ the 45-70 properly (shoot straight with the right modern 45-70 cartridge)and you will quickly and humanely take Elephant, Hippo, Rhino, Lion and Leopard and in deed, Cyncerus Caffer (Cape Buffalo when I have my bib overalls on). Garrett, and other GREAT cartridge inovators may not have used their cartridges personaly by hunting in Africa, BUT I DID and with fantastic results, and good lord willing, I will do it AGAIN! It may not be what others like or want to hear, but it is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Time will tell because a reasonably priced Marlin rifle loaded with specialy designed premium modern 45-70 cartridges like Garrett's Hammerheads will make African Safaris more affordable for many guys like me who prefer my bib overalls over my Versaci Tux! By the way, when Berger takes his Livingston Eland with his new 45-70 Marlin, he will find that the big bull will go down quickly and cleanly. I shot mine at about 100 yards with a 420gr Garrett Cartridges Hammerhead and he went down as if struck by lightning! | ||
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| <Rusty> |
I'll just stick to my double and my Versaci John Deere gimme cap! | ||
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Time will tell because a reasonably priced Marlin rifle loaded with specialy designed premium modern 45-70 cartridges like Garrett's Hammerheads will make African Safaris more affordable for many guys like me who prefer my bib overalls over my Versaci Tux! Oh I see, Lever actions vs Doubles (or a good function controlled feed bolt action) is a class thing..... BS [ 08-24-2002, 16:45: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ] | |||
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Versaci Tux????? Don't tell me the african regulations require you to wear one when shooting a double....... | |||
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John, He does have a point. If you post on the Varmint forum that you will shoot varmints at long range with a 458 or 45-120, there will be no outcry. By the way, I think you will find the long threads on this forum invariably do not relate to Africa. Lots of sensitive people on this forum. I wonder why. Just a thought. Mike [ 08-24-2002, 17:41: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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At LAST the voice of EXPERIENCE (having actually TAKEN DG with a Marlin lever gun in .45-70), VincentR speaks up! Thanks Vinc for proving it can be done cleanly and effectively. Great pics on the Garrett and Marlin Talk sites. You had said something about a video a while back, you gonna circulate it? Elk_Man [ 08-24-2002, 20:08: Message edited by: Elk_Man ] | |||
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