Rusty, Dan ... check page one for the BLR talk.

I'm afraid you won't get real "technical" acumen by calling Browning, only salespeople and pat answers. They desperately need someone to run the company properly.

It's interesting, but I've made reference - at least three or four times on various threads - to the fact that a great many experienced African hunters (PHs & clients) are disenchanted by the ballistics provided by the .458 Winchester, and now finally this fact is getting pecked at around the edges on this thread. And yet - if fed these wonderous, JFK-magic-bullet-theory cast jobs - the old .45-70 is as lethal as anything on dangerous game. What a paradox!

Now what would happen if we fed the anemic, near-worthless, forty-six-ear-old .458 Winchester those same magic bullets?

I can tell you one thing, any PH I've ever hunted with would laugh at this entire .45-70 concept and say leave any sort of psuedo dangerous game lever gun at home. They'd also say, if you want to play "Cowboy In Africa", hire another PH who is willing to entertain you; someone who needs the work!

In any event, taking a lever gun to Africa is akin to wearing bib overalls to a fancy cocktail party, and that stupid, lawyer-inspired crossbolt safety alone on the current Marlin is going to get someone in trouble some day by default, wait and see........

This whole .45-70 idea is more to prove a point than it is anything else. It's stuntsmanship, pure and simple. Now as I recall, WDM Bell shot a great many elephants with the 7X57 as well, yet no one to this day would say that that cartridge is even remotely suitable for that sort of task in today's Africa.

I get worked up over this topic because I think it's amaturish, bad advice that someone is going to take too seriously and get hurt by someday. Proper dangerous game bullets, ballistics, and rifles were figured out long ago, and there really isn't anything new out there - except for a new batch of suckers..........

AD

Nick,
I've emailed the number to call!

Allen Day has said it best. Taking a levergun to Africa is like wearing bib overalls to a fancy cocktail party.

But it is more than just a matter of style. It is also like wearing those same bib overalls to that same fancy cocktail party, but also having them and your hands and boots smeared liberally with farmyard manure and slop.

As you partake of the excellent horse ovaries and swill of the party, you will be detrimental to the olfactory and gustatory pleasures, and health, of yourself and other party goers.

You will be a sight for sore eyes, and definitely alter the ambience of the revelry.

That is the levergun in Africa.

I expect this to be the last word on this topic ... not!

Nickudu
One Of Us
Member # 1245
posted 06-18-2002 20:18

"Mac,
I was thinkin' real hard about converting a Browning BLR in .338 to .458 Win, a few years back. After reading the recent threads, I'm glad I didn't! BTW ... I consider a powerful lever gun a far more defendable choice of weapon than any bow or handgun. I am a bit surprised at the degree of negativity towards their use. Perhaps I have finally found a theme where I am among the more open minded?"

I'd also add muzzleloaders to the above. You'll not see me recommending or advocating the use of leverguns for buffalo but I sure as hell can't see why a fellow is painted a fool for being interested in doing so.

[ 08-11-2002, 18:07: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 06:55: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

I see it as a very interesting thread. To my way of thinking, it's the most normal of instincts to wish to expand the realm of usefulness of your particular weapon of choice. Primitive weapons enthusiasts of all sorts, contemplate taking on increasingly greater challenges. They plan, they tweak, they check out the possibilities and they decide whether or not to take that next step with the weapon they so enjoy. Same with handgun hunters. The specialized leverguns alluded to in this thread are far more potent than any of these. I am having trouble grasping why it is that a bowhunter who slays a cape buffalo receives our admiration while the equally well practiced and dedicated leveraction enthusiast is scoffed at.

Time for the Newbie to weigh in here.

While I have never hunted Africa, I have been shooting for 30 years, and reloading for 20. Not as long as some of you, but sufficiently long enough where I would think that my opinion has some value.

With that said, let me qualify the following remarks by saying that I will NEVER use a .45-70 on dangerous game. I don't want to be the one wearing the overalls at the fancy cocktail party. Besides, it's just not right, and there are lots of other more interesting guns to use.

Now, the questions regarding the suitability of the .45-70 lever gun for dangerous game are empirical questions that people are are attempting to answer using emotion, speculation, and conjecture, rather than data.

Seems to me that a DG round needs sufficient diameter, mass, and penetration. When we compare a 500 grn. .45-70 bullet to a 500 grn. .458 WM bullet, we are equal on the diameter and mass. Load both rounds with the same bullet and eliminate any variation.

Now the last factor, penetration. This is where empirics come in. Test them. John Taffin's test published in American Handgunner showed the .45-70 beating both the .500 NE and the .458 WM in penetration. Unfortunately, the test didn't eliminate the variation in mass, as the .45-70 was loaded with 540 grain bullets, the .500 NE with 570 grns., and the .458 WM with 500 grns.

Don't like the results? Test them yourself. Perhaps gelatin would be a better test medium than wet newspapers.

The ultimate test is how the round performs on game. But, there are so few examples with the .45-70 that it would be difficult to derive any meaningful comparisons at this time. Also, there are so many factors present in the shooting of game that are not present in controlled test environments that controlling for all of those factors would be very difficult indeed.

Time will tell. If enough animals are taken with the .45-70, and if it is perceived as a superior round, more people will be switching to it.

Now for the other question. Is a lever gun suitable? Again, test them. The guns either are or are not strong enough to handle the round as loaded. Extraction and ejection? Test it. What is the probability that a lever gun will fail to either extract or eject? I don't know, but we can test and find out. The probability of a failure to extract and or eject is non-zero for ALL types of rifles, be they bolt, double, lever, semi, or other. All rifles can fail. The question then becomes, "Will lever rifles fail at a statistically significantly greater rate than others?" Again, I don't know. And if anybody out there claims to know, I would be interested in the data and the analysis that drives the conclusion.

(TaxPhd now ducks down, dons his Nomex suit, and prepares for incoming fireballs . . .)

Tax, all you've done is screw with the numbers, and you've proven absolutely no point that any experienced user won't see through in about thirty seconds flat. I suggest that you live through a safari or two before you introduce any convoluted, out of balance inferences that are based on bullshit and guesswork. Here's a better test:

Take a .45-70, .458 Winchester, .458 Lott, and a .450 Dakota. Load them all to their potential with exactly the same bullets, then tell us which ones emerge as the clearly superior in all areas of performance.

AD

Well, I never thought I would see the day, but I have an admission to make (this is not another Todd E. by the way) After following this forum for months I have gone and bought a 45/70 Marlin Scout for which my licence will come through within three weeks- give or take. I will, in October of this year, use this rifle in Africa where I live, not for the first time in history, on extremely non-dg game (an eland) which I am shooting for my students. Having shot many (that by the way is sarcasm) eland with dg calibres (4) and thus making me very nearly the world expert on this matter (also sarcasm) , I will show once and for all little or nothing.... but I intend on shooting the eland with this gun. Now, should I carry it in place of my 375 when walking in Botswana in December where there are elephant, bugg and lion? I have been in one "close" situation in my 13 years here and the answer is, despite the 7 pound weight which is very attractive, no. This gun would not be enough to stop a last second scenario - of course, for all of you critics, here is a fellow carrying a 375, which I do, for just that scenario and it would not do either, although it did, so who am I to judge? But I will shoot that eland and tell you how it fares!

Please replace "bugg" with "buff" in the above post. Oh well....

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 06:52: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Todd,
Allen said "exactly the same bullets" and the results would be as he states. My point is, while Allen is free to use what calibers and rifles he deems adequate, so is the next guy.

[ 08-12-2002, 00:50: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 06:53: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Todd,
I know what you meant but I also "know" Allen was thinking Premium bullets.

All I can say is, if the .450 Dakota (and its ilk) would upset or destroy the "cast wonder bullets" (due to velocity), than the "wonder bullets" weren't worth a plugged nickle to begin with........

AD

I am not so sure that Allen's test won't do two things.

1.) Show the world that a 45-70 does not penetrate as well as a 458 WM or Lott.

2.) That any soft point bullet, provided the test is done with a soft point bullet, will not self destruct at the impact velocities a 450 Dakota is capable of achieving.

With regard to using hard cast bullets. In my experience accuracy goes to hell above 1900 - 2000 fps max. Therefore, if we are limited to a 540 grain hard cast slug the 458 Lott on up, this includes the Dakota, will not be able to be loaded to maximum potential due to accuracy concerns. I chose the 540 grain weight as this is the largest projectile I feel could be loaded up in a 45-70 with any hope of achieving a descent muzzle velocity.

For what it is worth, I do not for a minute believe that an lever action cartridge is capable of matching, even remotely, the ballistics of an equivalent caliber bolt action or double rifle cartridge. To suggest otherwise is pure folly. That does not mean that a lever action could not be used very successfully to harvest DG. It means precisely what I said, that being they are NOT equal.

SRS

Choose one...

1) A properly made hardcast bullet, with a large meplat, does what it was designed to do, kill with authority. It's design allows for more penetration, and wound damage then a solid of your choice.
Ask Ross Seyfried. He speaks of this, if you care to read about it. NO ONE here can refute what he writes, he's "the last word", IMHO.

2) I'm sure the whole lot of you nay-sayers are far more experienced then he, and we read your articals in Handloader/Rifle magazines quite often too! You folks are the top-dog experts, and know more then what Seyfried has said of this. Damn him! You're all PH's and such firearms authorities, far beyound him. I nearly forgot that. Thanks for reminding us.
~~~Suluuq

Nick,
I guess a bow hunter has our admiration because the bow is just being what it is! It isn't a 45/70 Lever action mascarading as a DGR!

Just answer this one question and I will go drag the Marlin Lever Action 45/70 out of the back of the gun safe. I'll tell it it's going to be OK!

If the old loads for the .458 Win Mag gave it such a bad reputation for penetration, what magic makes the Marlin Lever Action 45/70 so good?
Try some explanation beside the apples and oranges!

Like SRS said the 45/70 hasn't and never will be a 458 Win Mag or a Lott, especially out of a Marlin Lever action!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty Gunn, you're still ducking my point. If you weren't afraid to face it, then you you wouldn't duck it! Seyfried's a great authority alright, and I respect him and I like him, but he can face up to the same comparisons himself as far as I'm concerned (without hedging the facts) or forget it.

AD

[ 08-12-2002, 07:04: Message edited by: allen day ]

Rusty,
The reason the early .458 loads got that reputation was because of faulty ignition, due to caked powder charges from overly compressed loads. Not because the round was inherently inadequate for the job at hand.

Wasn't the .458 WM fa�lure a combination from lack of velocity and weak bullets?

If you look at the 45/70 540gr hardcast, this is a very different concept. Slow very heavy bullet with flat nose, no bullet destruction and straight path thru the object.

As the new generation of bullets has changed a lot in the last 20 years, why shouldn't this change something for the o'le slow running obsolet caliber 45/70?

Just to make sure, I've build a 416 Rigby for a DGR - but if I can go hunt buff next year for free - I'll do it with a 45/70 or even with a 7x57!

Franz

The failure of the early .458s were as daydreamer said because of poor penetration due to lack of velocity trying to over come the poor .458 bullet penetration!

Daydreamer, an excellent choice of the .416 Rigby!
The .416 is a good long bullet that has a reputation as a great penetrating bullet!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 08-12-2002, 16:55: Message edited by: Rusty ]

The horror stories revolving around the .458 concerning the poor penetration were due more to instances of erratic ignition than poor factory solids. Some ammo, perhaps lying around too long, gave sporadic ignition and velocities as low as 1600 fps were documented. With todays powders, one can attain 2,250 with no ignition problems. It is better than ever.

Allen,

I went back and re-read my post, and I'm not sure what I said to cause you to get your dander up. However, something got you riled, and I apologize, as that was not my intent.

I will again preface my remarks by saying that I don't believe a lever action .45-70 is suitable for DG hunting (Note the word "believe" in the previous sentence? Means I don't have the DATA to back it up).

You said of my post:

"Tax, all you've done is screw with the numbers, and you've proven absolutely no point that any experienced user won't see through in about thirty seconds flat."

I "screwed" with no numbers. The numbers I presented were the results of one test that compared penetrations of various rounds. And that is the only test whose results have been presented on this thread. Is it conclusive? Of course not. But it is data that goes towards answering the question. And I certainly came to no conclusions nor proved anything.

You said:
"Take a .45-70, .458 Winchester, .458 Lott, and a .450 Dakota. Load them all to their potential with exactly the same bullets, then tell us which ones emerge as the clearly superior in all areas of performance."

That is what I was advocating in my post. Test the rounds, then we have have hard data about their ability to penetrate. Test the rifles, then we will have data about their failure rate.

Nowhere in my post did I advocate the use of a .45-70 lever gun for dangerous game.

You said that I should "live through a safari or two before (I) introduce any convoluted, out of balance inferences that are based on bullshit and guesswork."

Again, I am not sure where the rancor comes from. I inferred nothing. I called for testing of rounds and rifles. I asked for anyone that had data in this area to present it. Taffin's test provides us with some data. The article in 'American Handgunner' provides a decent explanation (IIRC) of how the test was carried out. The test didn't appear to be "based on bullshit and guesswork," nor did it "introduce any convoluted, out of balance inferences." If you can explain to us the flaws in Taffin's test, it would be appreciated - at least by me.

What Taffin's test did do was provide a result that was completely different than what many of us "knew" to be true. I was shocked by the results - because they differed from what I "knew" to be true. Is it sufficient to make me want to hunt Buff with a .45-70 lever gun? No. I want a double rifle in a classic NE chambering. But, it is better evidence than someone saying that "it is just bullshit - it can't happen."

Again, Allen, I'm sorry about whatever you construed from my post to be insult to you. I don't know what it is, and it was not intended. If you ever get out to Colorado, I'd like to buy you a beer and talk hunting.

This simply a follow-up to my last post. I ran some numbers though a terminal ballistics software I have and this is what is said. I used a 540 grain bullet with a BC of 0.3. All the .458 caliber cartridges were run with this bullet. The results are all weighed against the 45-70 so the 45-70 has a penetration value of 1.

So:

Penetration Index
45-70 Value
1650 fps MV 1

458 Win Mag
1950 fps MV 1.4

458 Lott
2150 fps MV 1.7

450 Dakota (or 460 Weatherby)
2350 fps MV 1.9

With a 50-110 using a 525 grain slug I get
2050 fps MV (realistic) 1.3

500 AHR (570 grain Woodleigh)
2450 fps MV 2.3 (this is not max effort)

I have found this software to provide very good correlation when comparing one cartridge's performance to another. So that said, the velocities I used I feel are all realistic. Anyone that thinks a 50-110 will significantly beat 2050 fps with a 525 gr Woodleigh at a 40,000 CUP level I question their equipment. I also felt that the 1650 fps for the 45-70 was realistic.

The results clearly demonstrate that a lever action scaled cartridge will nowhere near perform as well as their bolt action contemporaries. The results do not say that a lever action cartridge won't kill buffalo handily either.

SRS

[ 08-13-2002, 02:06: Message edited by: SRS ]

SRS,

Thank you for posting the information on the Penetration Index of various rounds.

However, I can't agree with your conclusion of, "The results clearly demonstrate that a lever action scaled cartridge will nowhere near perform as well as their bolt action contemporaries."

What we have here is analytics versus empirics.

Analytics says, "This is what SHOULD BE, based on some formula."

Empirics says, "This is what IS, based observed results."

The anlytitcs of Penetration Index would conclude that the results of Taffin's penetration test did not occur as they did. I guess that you could say that Taffin lied . . ..

Or, you could do what I and Allen and others have called for and that is test the rounds. Taffin has provided one test. Let's see some others.

TaxPhd,

I have found that this particular index does a very good job of relating one cartridge's performance to another when the only variable is either, bullet mass, bullet BC, bullet velocity, bullet diameter, etc. The trick is that only one parameter is different. I have also found that with some tweaking of parameters (namely the BC) you can get good correlation to actual field penetration in game. The software as I understand it uses the BC, bullet diameter, and mass to generate a penetration model based upon the geometry of the bullet's nose shape, cross sectional area, and mass (maybe mass density).
This is not a simple program and is not commercially available.

If you actually believe for one minute that a 45-70 with a 540 gr cast slug will outpenetrate a 458 Lott shooting the exact same slug 400 to 500 fps faster I am not going to argue with you. The reason, you are insane!

A coworker of mine hunts with a Marlin 45-70, although not a vaunted guide gun. His is an older long barreled model. It will in no way shape nor form penetrate as well as my 416 Rigby, 500 AHR, 300 Win Mag, or 9.3X74R. Even when he is shooting the Buffalo Bore hard cast stuff. These penetration tests were performed on deer and hogs primarily.

I am beginning to think I should have stayed out of this. As some of these guys are plain nuts!

With regard to Taffin's test. What bullets was he shooting in the 458 and 500. I mean soft or solid? One additional thing you must consider is that the 500 NE has a MV 2150 fps, compared the 500 AHR @ 2450 fps (I can get over 2650 if I want to). This will make a HUGE difference.

The most disturbing bit of information to be gleaned is that you seem to have little experience. These hard cast bullets shoot like crap (accuracy) at muzzle velocities over 1900 fps (sometimes you get lucky and achieve 2000 fps).

[ 08-13-2002, 03:47: Message edited by: SRS ]

Thanks for the information SRS. I think you have presented valid data!

You should not have stayed out of this. There is really no reason to argue! The facts are in and have been stated!

Only thing to do now is wait for the spin (or was that penetration) doctors to set it their way.
After all there is no reason to confuse them!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty,

Thank you. Actually, the 500 grain slug in the .458 bore provided the best penetration potential with this software. It may well have to do with the length of the bullet and the associated drag increase with the longer shank of the 540 grain.

The truth is this software does not to my knowledge model the fluid dynamics benefits of flat point well. This benefit being an increase in turbulence and also a forward directed pressure cylinder which provides a more "straight" path of least resistance. Irregardless, in the aforementioned analysis all the cartridges fired the exact same bullet (excluding the .510 bores that is).

SRS

Just so no one is confused, I have been consistent in my 3(?) posts on this thread - I am not defending the .45-70 out of a lever gun for dangerous game. I don't believe (but I don't have the data) that it is adequate. What I am doing is calling for more testing of the rounds and the guns. Testing will provide the data upon which informed decisions can be made.

I would be very interested in the correlation data that you have that relates PI with real world on-game penetration results. This is useful information that would provide an additional piece of the puzzle. I would be especially interested in how all the variables in the real world on-game shootings were controlled, as this would appear to be problematic. Can you provide this information?

You said:

"If you actually believe for one minute that a 45-70 with a 540 gr cast slug will outpenetrate a 458 Lott shooting the exact same slug 400 to 500 fps faster I am not going to argue with you. The reason, you are insane!"

I didn't belive that a .45-70 would out-penetrate a .500 NE and a .458 WM. Taffin's test was one example of my beliefs being incorrect.

[ 08-13-2002, 03:59: Message edited by: TaxPhd ]

TaxPhd,

Sadly I believe we are on the same team. If you are after statistically significant correlation data that is R90 C90 no I cannot provide that. I can however compare the computed results to my own hunting experience(s) and those of friends. This has been done.

I think that the hot rod 45-70 would easily kill a buffalo if the bullet was placed properly. Only a fool would shoot a buffalo in the ass, even with a 500 or 577! The ass shots are sometimes made by those that feel they need to generate more blood loss than a ruptured heart (guess what with no hard there is no more blood pumping so loss is strickly gravity feed).

Not to sound antagonistic, but how much experience with these big guns do you have? If soft points were used in the 458 or 500 (particularily in the 500) I would expect the slow hard cast 45-70 to be capable of out penetrating these two rounds.

SRS

Double post. Ain't dial up GREAT!!

[ 08-13-2002, 04:11: Message edited by: SRS ]

SRS,

Yes, we are on the same team.

My experience with big bores is non-existent. The largest rifle that I have fired is a .375 H&H. Hence my asking for people to provide data - I don't have any of my own.

My desire for a double in a NE chambering is based on a lot of people saying that it is the way to go. There is a certain amount of logic behind that. And right now, that is all I have to go on. The experiences of others. But my head would like some hard data to back up a decision that my heart has already made. Things like Taffin's test tend to confuse me, but I am not ready to dismiss them out of hand.

Here is the URL of the Test TaxPhd is talking about
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm
...most of it is about big bore hand guns but it does state that a Garrett Hammer Head 530 gr. at 1550 fps traveled 55 inches into the medium (wet news print I think) while a .500 Nitro Express 570 gr. solid at 2150 fps only went 48 inches.
Knew I bought that Guide Gun for a reason...


[ 08-13-2002, 08:22: Message edited by: Elk_Man ]

Bringing a lever gun to Africa would be like wearing bib overalls to a cocktail party?

Now then, here is the real reason for the uproar: it's not in whether the 45/70 (or any other lever action gun) can actually and efficiently put down a Cape buffalo. It's in the elitist attitude that only certain rifles are acceptable for doing the hunting in. We're talking personal preferences and style, not performance and ability: chest-beating about how big a rifle the game was shot with - the same as among the deer hunting crowd.

Yes, you can play the numbers all day long about how the preferred rifles are so very much superior (and well they are), but the question gets back to whether the hunter is shooting something he/she is both comfortable/proficient/confident with and has enough ballistics to perform the task efficiently.

At the distances quoted for this kind of hunting (10-50 yds), a 500gr+ hard cast bullet couldn't penetrate enough to the heart/lung area of the Cape buff.? Even at 45/70 velocities? Sorry, but I refuse to believe that any animal has muscles of granite and bones of steel.

The case was made for having the penetration needed for reaching the vitals by a shot from the buff's six. Personally, I wouldn't take an a$$ shot on any game, dangerous or otherwise. Just like shooting a man in the back, in my opinion. For any other angle, then why the fuss? 4 ft of penetration is enough for anything that walks on earth. It doesn't take Kryptonite bullets to bring down anything on this planet - whether it be bears or buffs. Neither wear the big "S" on their chest.

The admission was made earlier that one could do it with a 45/70, then posed the question, why do it with an "underpowered" cartridge when so many more powerful cartridges are available? Well, if a hunter wants to brag about getting closer and bagging the biggest buff with a "lesser" cartridge, what is that to anyone else? Why should they be thought ill of, as a farmer in bib overalls crashing a cocktail party?

I guess the country club hunters with their cocktail parties must really look down upon the common Joe hunters like myself, who in getting started use the tools available that get the job done (like 6mm and 30-30 for deer - also "inadequate" cartridges for the game, according to many circles, but don't tell the deer in my freezer that), rather than concentrating on what is socially acceptable around camp (in which case, I need to go get a 7 mag, 300 Wim mag, or 300WSM real quick to be thought of as a "real" hunter at next deer camp...good Lordy, those deer are becoming harder to kill every year!).

Yep, a lot of satire ending here, but I don't buy the elite line that something just has to be "fashionable" or "acceptable around camp circles" for a hunter to take it into the field. If it will do the job in the hands of the hunter - it's not "unfit" for the task.

To the guys who vaunt the "premium" 540grn hard cast bullets which penerate so well at around 1800fps, any idea how they would work at 2100fps or even 2300fps? More peneration still? Or would they fail to hold together if they encountered hard bone?

Also, the lever action was once issued to the US Army if I am not mistaken. Are there any lessons learned from its service life which might be relevent to its use or otherwise as a DGR? I am not taking the performance of the rounds it was chambered for, but the performance of the action.

Finally, strength/design wise, how does a modern lever action such as a steel BLR compare to a typical double gun of say a hundred years ago?

Well said TXLoader. I LIKE my overalls AND my Marlin 1895G. To those who DON'T...well...it's a free country.


Elk_Man

[ 08-13-2002, 23:59: Message edited by: Elk_Man ]

If you anti 45/70 (lever gun)want to knock anyone then knock the bowhunters that we take out for buff elephant, hippo etc. If anything PH's still take these guys out but you don't see the PHs "upgradeing" to bows just because the bow is able to kill any of the affor mentioned species.