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| <Henry McCann> |
Ray, Asked seriously, "If a Cape Buffalo can take 13 .470s before dying, wouldn't that be considered an inadequate caliber to hunt them with"? I asked tongue in cheek on another post, but more seriously here, why not a 50 BMG? Sure at 20 to 30 lbs. it's a tad heavy ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} , but if you really want the beast down and everyone safe why use a caliber that takes 13 or nine shots to kill a Cape Buffalo?Isn't it always a compromise of some sort? Can we promise that any action or caliber will work 100% of the time and NEVER fail? | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
It only takes 9-13 rounds because they are gut shooting them and using nonexpanding solids which are intended for busting bone and brain shots against thick skulls not gut shooting! Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
The following was posted over at the Marlin talk board by a long time poster who is planning to take a 450/110 86 Win and a Marlin 1895ss takedown to Africa. Kinda intresting huh? A PH who uses a Marlin 1895 to cull Elephants. jnc-91, Relearned a valuable lesson today: Keep asking questions As previously mentioned, I called Alaska Bullet Works today to see if they had ever considered making a 450gr FN-FMJ. I started by asking that question about slicing-off 50gr from the base of their 500gr FN-FMJ. Mike said yes, you could do that on a lathe and it should work just fine. However, ABW actually had some custom 0.458 caliber, 450gr FN-FMJ's in stock that had been built special for a customer. The lead core was special made from a hard cast lead alloy with 3% antimony & arsenic that ABW then heat treated to further harden! And, yes, this is a Kodiak, fully bonded-core bullet. When I asked Mike about using this 450gr FN-FMJ at 2300fps he thought it would work just fine below 2100fps and, then started to tell me more about the hunting history this 450gr bullet had already seen in Africa (!!!!!) custom loaded into 45-70 ammo by the above mentioned customer. These bullets are used in custom, hand loaded, 45-70 ammo by a Professional Hunter in Botswana to cull Bull Elephants. And, yes, the PH uses a Marlin 1895 Mike had asked the PH why he preferred a Lever Action and was told: "It's great for a rapid 2nd shot." ... Guess that says it all The name of the PH is Mark Andre LaQuieu. Mark and Jaco Van Der Merwe are co-owners of Ngamiland Safaris. Mark grew up in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Jaco is a native South African. The Ngamiland Safaris website is at: http://www.ngamilandsafaris.com/ Bill Just a few thoughts, Jeff Collins [ 06-22-2002, 01:10: Message edited by: jnc91 ] | |||
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| One of Us |
Ngamiland Safaris website sports a picture of a lion that has been shampooed, brushed and blow dried: http://www.ngamilandsafaris.com/images/lionstare.jpg It just doesn't look natural. Now here is a person with a marlin standing next to an elephant: http://www.ngamilandsafaris.com/images/02marcwelealone.jpg So we can conclude that either the guy has damn poor judgement, or the picture is a pose. [ 06-22-2002, 01:34: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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| one of us |
jnc91 is a hilarious individual and is no doubt going to make an excellent slave for someone one day. take care sf | |||
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| one of us |
And I take it smallfry is an anatomical reference... ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
500grains, Can you explain, in other than opinion and speculation, why a 45-70 shooting a hard cast or solid bullet of 450 grains at 1950 fps or so won't kill a buffalo, elephant, etc? You make alot of statements with little supporting evidence. I assure you that a 45-70 load as described will out penetrate the old 8 bore load by quite a margin. You erroneously argued section density and I believe you are erroneous here as well. The single most sited arguement on this forum is one to do with the 2000 fps 458 Win Mag load. The problem with that load wasn't the muzzle velocity, but the crappy bullets Winchester loaded. These early bullets failed ALL TOO OFTEN. Today the 458 Win Mag is the most popular BY FAR 458 bore! Guess what, 458 bullet quality is quantum leaps and bounds better than the early 60's. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but recognize it for what it is your OPINION. There are precious few facts that support your OPINION. I can find plenty of evidence of bullet failures and insufficient penetration in calibers as exalted as the various 500 magnums, 585, 620, and 700 bore. Not to mention the lesser 458 Magnums, 416s, 423s, 411s, etc, etc. These bullet failures just happen. I do not believe anyone here is telling YOU to hunt DG with a 45-70, 45-110, 50-110, etc. These people are just proud of their choices and are sharing it with the rest of us. It is quite possible some of these guys care very little for Mausers or Doubles but I cannot remember seeing these posters slamming us double gun guys (we don't need any help there do we, wink wink). I guess all I am saying if you have factual evidence then provide it. Otherwise state your opinion and leave it at that. Please do not expect everyone to follow your lead, it is an unrealistic expectation. By the way, this goes to several others here besides 500grains. I singled him out as he seems to be the most vocal, but he is not alone in this senseless abuse of others. The simple truth is these lever actions will KILL a buffalo and elephant. The 45-70 in black powder is responsible for the slaughter of perhaps hundreds of thousands of American Plains Bison. These animals are as tough as any cape buffalo and can be just as mean and nastY! There is very little reason to believe these lever action wildcats won't easily kill ol' Mbogo if the bullet his the pump house. I can assure you all though I won't use one. To me, a double is first choice a magnum Mauser is a close second. Either one in a 500 bore (okay my double is a 483 bore but that is close). If these guys want to seperate their shoulders shooting these 8 pound lever cannons I say more power to 'um. Todd E | ||
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| <North of 60> |
Now maybe our buffalo are not quite as tough as the African variety but this winter a native hunter with a ubiquitous .303 was killed in the town next to us FT.Smith NT./Canada... when the buffalo he wounded with a poor shot turned on him and stomped him into jelly. They are big boned and strong and I'd use my 450 Marlin on one and feel quite well armed....probably use my 350 Rem Mag though with 250 Noslers at 2450ft/sec. Now I know a cape buffalo might be a bit meaner/stronger but you have a guide backing you up and a 444/45-70 or 450 with the correct bullet would likely do a good job. If the hunter using it is comfortable with it and shoots it well why not? Me I would buy a 9.3x62 CZ that I have my eye on and make up for the lack of power by shooting well. | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:I never said it won't. In fact, I said and 22 Hornet and a 243 will kill them too. But all of the above are a poor choice. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
500grains, That is what you said. What I would like to hear is why using factual data these wildcat big bore lever action rounds are not good choices. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Todd E, did you see my post reguarding the woodliegh .483 bullets? I bet they could be bought cheap. | |||
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| <Rusty> |
I guess I keep missing all those photos in my Safari magazine with all those satisfied hunters with ther Marlin 45/70 and their trophies, much less their Cape Buffalo? I will have to look closer! | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Otay, I'll ask... Will you show proof the 22 Hornet and 243 has taken elephant and buffalo? What sort of track record of success do they have? Show me a PH who uses one as a back-up. Show me a PH who says you can take one on elephant and buff. Show me a law that allows it. Why lump the three together? Why argue they too can kill elephant and buff? I can understand they are quite small, and weak, thus should not be used, but the 45-70 is by far a different "animal" then the other two rounds. so, why compare them? Its been argued that the 45-70 doesn't have much of a track record of success yet to be legit for African game, but what is also ignored by the same folks is the track record it does have. This amount may not be much compared to the more popular rounds, like a 375 HH&H, but that is to be expected, since it's been used a lot longer there. Sure, a levergun is not a DGR in it's truest sense, but thats beside the point. Its the bullet that does the killing, not the rifle design, nor the brass case. ~~~Suluuq [ 06-23-2002, 12:10: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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| Moderator |
Suluuq, 500grains doesn't have to provide proof of successful use of a .22 Hornet or .243 on buffalo because he's not suggesting/promoting/recommending either for use on dangerous game. Your arguments are pathetic. I have eviscerated every single one of them both here, and at Marlin Talk. You have presented scant proof, opinions, marketing claims, and anecdotes as proof positive that a lever-action is a good choice for thick-skinned dangerous game in Africa. A simple question for you: What dangerous game have you shot anywhere, with any gun? George | |||
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| one of us |
Todd E. In response to your post regarding the multiple shot buff, I didn't do the shooting and they (the clients) lung shot the bulls first then the other shots were all over, including guts... I am aware the a brain shot or spine shot will kill them as are the rest on this forum I'm sure, but am glad you informed us all of that fact.... My point being that the first shot placement is all important on shooting buffalo, regardless of the caliber.... As to a BMG post, buffalo and elephant rifles are limited by me as to weight, because I don't intend to carry any rifle over 10.5 lbs. on a elephant track or anywhere else. I have stated that a 400 gr. 40 cal. at 2100 is a good buff gun and a 300 gr. 375 at 2300 is fair to middlin on Buff. That's my opinnion and I have no problem with anyone shooting buff with any caliber, as long as the PH is backing them up, and he agreed to do it.....Thats your business. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
George S, Since 500grains won't or can't answer the questions, and you seem to be taking on his fight why don't you explain why a 45-110 is not acceptable for African game. As a third party with nothing in this fight I assure you George that you and 500grains have the MORE PATHETIC argument. You provide no proof jsut BS about that lever action isn't a DGR. Big deal! The question is about ballistics not rifle design. I have shot many large big critters. Bison, Buffalo, Bear, Lion. etc. I can assure you if you shoot any of them wrong with even a traditional stopping rifle they don't go down. You should be aware of this since you screwed up a shot on a buffalo with a 470 Capstick. Once you screw up you only need enough gun to reach the brain. You sir grabbed your 375 as I recall the story properly. A 45-70 let alone a 45-110 with solid projectiles will easily reach the brain of a buffalo! So what is your point? edit Ray, I knew full well you knew that. I just wanted to bring out the rest of the story. You have to admit your post was rather one sided. Todd E [ 06-23-2002, 18:43: Message edited by: Todd E ] | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:If you were familiar with the old British black powder rounds, like the 500 BPE, you would find their ballistics frighteningly similar to the 45-70. Yet they were abandoned more than 100 years ago in favor of the Nitro Express rounds due to the ineffectiveness of the old BPE rounds. Yet if you want to repeat the mistakes of history, using low sectional density bullets at low velocities and achieving poor penetration, then by all means have at it. Todd E, Please do not attribute to me statements that I did not make. You have become too emotional about this and I see no point in arguing with a rock. [ 06-23-2002, 19:40: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:Todd, A close examination of my posts will reveal that I never said a .45-110 (or .45-70) would not kill a buffalo. I stressed that it would work under ideal conditions, which aren't always available when hunting DG. I have about as much stake in this debate as you do, and will continue to post when I feel I have something relevant to add, and to refute false statements and non-facts. Suluuq has made some patently false statements, and has misquoted me and others both here and on Marlin Talk. I will continue to expose his b.s. and yours, if necessary. The fact that I may have gotten to it before 500grains doesn't change anything. You are also wrong in saying the argument is not about rifle design. The consensus here is that lever-actions cannot safely handle the pressures required to chamber a round that is capable of reliably taking dangerous game under less-than-ideal circumstances. Chamber that .45-70 or .45-110 (with strong brass) in a modern bolt-action, and you have something much different. You've got my story backward. I started with the .375 and finished with the .470 Capstick. I never had a shot at that buff's brain (or a broadside shot). Only one of my bullets failed to penetrate completely (it was a soft that flattened against the spine). If you're going to "attack" me, at least get the details correct. BTW, I don't remember the details of your Cape buffalo hunt; woud you please relate them for us? How well did your lever-action rifle work? What bullets did you use? George | |||
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| one of us |
HI, I kind of want to stay out of this, but I must agree with TODD E.I am getting a 50-110 in a win 86, I think if I had a 525 grain bullet going 2200fps out of a bolt action everyone would say that will work just fine on big game and BUFF too.It seems to me just because it is coming out of a lever action it is not the same ?, The ME will be 5,600 FPs and I thought according to the books I have read and heard people state ME around 5,000 was considered good for dangerous game.I have not hunted in Africa, I will some time, but I think if the numbers are there what is the problem.I am not saying to get a 50-110 over a 416 or 375 for hunting Africa, but if someone has one I think it will work just fine within its range of 150 yards or less. It may work up to 200 yards, but 150 or less for sure.I also have order some GS CUSTOM FN 500 grain Jeffery bullets, which they assured me will work fine in the 50-110 win 86 action.Thanks,Kev | |||
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| <USA-1> |
There sure is a wealth of knowledge floating around here, has any of it ever been used?? [ 06-24-2002, 00:40: Message edited by: USA-1 ] | ||
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| Moderator |
USA-1, Some of us have already established our bona fides. Others are working on it; others still never will. George | |||
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| one of us |
HI, I will see how my 50-110 works this sept. when I go for a bear hunt in Maine, which I have been going there for years. I know bear is not as thick skin as African game,so as far as Africa goes as I stated before I do not know.I can only state facts as far as the numbers show, I will get to Africa some day. I just have empty pockets right now, but I am working on it. Thanks,Kev | |||
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| Moderator |
Kev, Do a LOT of research before hunting black bear in Maine. There are few large bears taken there overall. Most are under 200lbs. Get some statistics from Maine DNR. George | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
George S, What BS did I say? I believe you are just upset because the facts do not support your OPINIONS! Also, I apologize if I got your 470 Capstick story backwards. I was trying to remember your post not rereading it. I would advise you (since your PH didn't) not to take Texas heart shots on buffalo as a FIRST SHOT!!! If I am asked to consider the sources I have one guy from Northern Alaska and another from NYC. Now with only that limited knowledge I would have to give credibility advantage to the native American from Alaska! Sorry George S, but I have not stated any bullshit only you have. Actually George more accurately you haven't stated much of anything. Why don't you try posting facts instead of insults and personal attacks! So to return the personal attack favor. For crying out loud George S, you are ignorant enough to shoot a buffalo up the ass! I assume that is the shot you took since you stated you had no head shot or broadside shot available. If I had been your PH I would have killed you (you wouldn't have had to worry about the wounded buffalo). It must not been much of an adrenaline rush either since you had time to pump several rounds into him with the 375, change rifles and pump a few more rounds into that poor buffalo. Regarding my creditials I am a pround card caring member of PETA and gun hater! 500grains, No emotion, just tired of the constant same old bullshit! To address your statements about BP. Muzzle loaders are still used today and effectively I might add. Now today we have Ultra Mags. They don't really kill any better than the 100 year old 30-06 but they sell like hot cakes. I would ask you to consider the marketing hype of the late 19th century and early 20th century. For your information many BP rifles were still built for Africa and India after the turn of the 20th century due entirely to experienced hunters concerns with pressure spikes in the nitro cartridges. THIS IS FACT NOT BULLSHIT. Now go play sofa PH on the CRF vs. Push Feed thread etc, etc. Todd E [ 06-24-2002, 01:32: Message edited by: Todd E ] | ||
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| Moderator |
quote:Todd, The one thing your posts lack is a foundation in fact. I have never said I took an ass-shot on my buffalo. The PH put a 400gr. solid at the root of the tail, but that bullet only penetrated about 12". All my shots were raking shots. Apparently, you don't know the difference. Your "native American from northen Alaska" has never hunted dangerous game in Africa. We're still waiting for any proof that he has hunted dangerous game anywhere with anything. As a matter of fact, I don't remember reading about ANY of his hunting exploits accompanied by photos. We also haven't heard about your African hunting experiences. Do you have any? As for facts vs. opinions, I haven't stated any facts in dispute. All we have from your side are opinions supported by a handful of Cape buffalo taken with lever guns. What sensible person with personal experience accept a premise supported by such scant evidence? No, I guess only those with no personal point of reference would accept it as gospel truth. Had you EVER hunted Cape buffalo on foot in the bush, you'd know that you must keep shooting until they're dead, regardless of how good your first shot was (mine punched a great big hole through its heart). But I suppose it all works perfectly for you in your dreams. The adrenaline, combined with resolve, is what enables you to continue to function in stressful situations. I don't have to worry about getting killed by a PH, and we don't have to worry about you ever becoming a PH. You have to be somewhat QUALIFIED to become a PH licensed for DG. George [ 06-24-2002, 02:45: Message edited by: GeorgeS ] | |||
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| <Harald> |
Getting warm in here... Returning to the original subject, I have some personal experiences to relate that may be of some interest to those hoping to push the envelope with hot loads in the Browning-Winchester 1886/71 action. I went to the range this afternoon to develop some loads for my Browning 1895 .30-06 Sprg. To give me something to do in between barrel cooling periods I carried a Model 71 with a new box of Winchester factory loads (200 gr Silvertip) of lot number 52SE70. I shot 3 or 4 round strings in both guns and let the barrels cool to only slightly warm. It was about 85 degrees and I kept the guns in the shade when not shooting. Several of the factory loads in the .348 Win were sticky, but I let it cool real low before my fourth string. The first shot popped right out. The next froze the bolt. I could get the lever open only about an inch. Now I didn't put my foot in the lever and pull up on the barrel because I love this rifle, but lets just say it wasn't going to budge. I ended up driving the case out with a hammer and a wooden dowel back home. That my friends is the kind of jam that you do not want. I suspect that these factory loads are a bit on the warm side, as was the day, but I have experienced similar things before (as I have reported previously) as loads approach 44 ksi in the Model 71. It ain't a question of action strength, its a matter of primary extraction. Bolt actions can seize up as well, but it takes a lot more pressure variation to overcome the Mauser extractor and that powerful torque on the bolt handle. By way of comparison, my Model 1895 handled max loads developing close to 60 ksi and every case fell out without the slightest hesitation. Now I love the 1886 action. I think it is the most glorious lever action ever designed, but it simply is not up to hot loads. Were I hunting dangerous game in warm weather I would have loads no hotter than 35 ksi and that means a lot less horsepower than some have suggested here. Anybody who claims to take a Model 86/71 to 50 ksi or 60 ksi is using weird science to do it. And he ain't getting cases that fall right out. Lever actions that don't lever are not good for much. If I were obsessed with using a lever action on dangerous game, based on my experience today I would be more inclined to get a .405 Win or .411 Hawk and load it (sensibly) with really stout bullets. Either of those should be close to Ray's criterion that duplicates the old .400 NE or the .404 Jeff (maybe a bit shy at that). Otherwise I would get a BIG heavy bullet going as fast as sane pressures would permit and simply recognize that it ain't serious buffalo medicine and be prepared to live (and die?) with that. Its not nearly the stunt that using a handgun or a bow (or spear) would be, but not major horsepower. | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:No bullshit. 1. bore diameter over .40 2. sectional density at least .300 3. muzzle velocity at least 2150 fps Your coveted 45-70 fails 2 of these 3 criteria. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
500grains, I explained to you once were that over .300 SD came from. Question for you. Is the factory original load for the 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, 8 bore, and 4 bore acceptable for dangerous game? Answer this and you will have at least provided some factual information. GeorgeS, You are definitely a New Yorker! I love you hicks! You believe everything (when you understand this statement you can move yourself out of the hick category). I have killed more buffalo than you. A question for you sir. Which is more thrilling killing buffalo bulls or old cows? So I was off a bit. You must admit that you left the description a little open. SO BEING THE ENLIGHTENED EXPERIENCED HUNTER THAT YOU ARE YOU TOOK POSTERIOR OBLIQUE SHOTS AT A BUFFALO (that translates to shots taken at a buffalo from the rear as it is quartering away from you)! You are da man. I have provided proof. The BP loaded 45-70 and 450 Martini have both killed tens of thousands of buffalo. Those guys doing the shooting lived to tell the tales to. History is my proof not some guys "hunting stories". This is a common sense issue evidently you have little to none. I have provided proof to disprove 500grains BS about section density as well. Unless he decides that answer to his question above is NO. Harald, No heat from my side. I am only stirring the pot. These two guys are almost always full of it. If they actually had any significant hunting experience they would understand much better my point. They have little actual experience so they draw upon their limited experiences and those written down in old "hunting story" books. Todd E [ 06-24-2002, 06:29: Message edited by: Todd E ] | ||
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| one of us |
Harald, Thanks for the injection of a little reality into this otherwise LAF-a-bull affair. Yes, Lever Action Fever (LAF) can make things get kind of warm for its sufferers. I am on a campaign to standardize the acronym LAF in medical terminology. | |||
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| one of us |
Harald, You had better throw that 71 away. Sounds like someone saw you coming and sold you a piece of sh%t. The Browning 71 I had converted to 450 Alaskan would not only eject the emptys with gusto but I had to run around the bench and look for the empties. The loads I was working with were not lightweights either. 400 graing slugs at 2150 through a chronograph. Not max loads either. The 348s you had been shooting must have been overloaded. The Browning 71 is one of strongest lever actions built. As to the pressures you were listing, where did you get these numbers from? The 71 Browning and Winchester are good for about 40K Sounds like you have the Accurate African Hunter Syndrome. If it ain't Bolt or Double it ain't got it! Roger | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:Gee, Todd, having someone who lives in Cleveland call me a 'hick' REALLY means something. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} The 'Mistake by the Lake' has it all over the 'Big Apple' culturally. I mean you do have the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and...and...what the hell else do you have?I wouldn't know anything about shooting buffalo cows; I've never done it. Is that what you base all your comments on dangerous game on? Personally, I prefer to hunt Cape buffalo bulls. I'll take what shot is presented by a fleeing bull. Raking shots work quite well, even on adrenalized bulls. Of course, if cows are more your speed... The .45-70 may have killed bison, but it has no such history on Cape buffalo. As for the Martini, it may have done damage in its day, but I don't think anyone recommends it today. Remember that NEITHER of the above examples occurred during an era where high daily rates, compressed safaris, and 'wounded-and-lost' fees were incurred. If you didn't kill your game, you just shot another, and another until you filled your bag. This is still the case over most of North America. A person could wound and lose elk every day of the season, and it wouldn't cost them any extra fees. You can't do that in Africa any more, so a bigger hammer is better. The history you refer to neglects to mention that most of the bison were shot with .45 & .50 caliber single-shots, NOT repeaters. And can you give me the name(s) of the book(s) that attribute thousands of Cape buffalo falling to Martinis? George | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:You will notice that a lot of 50 cal users have gone up to 570 and even 600 grain bullets. Why? Superior penetration. 4 bore and 8 bore were notoriously lousy penetrators. Shot placement was critical to ensure that the vitals were reached. Of course the momentum of the slugs still impressed the game, but a quartering away shot on ellie would likely result in a non-vital hit due to penetration problems. No one said 45-70's won't kill buffalo. But they are inferior and a poor choice. By the way, are you really an engineer? Honest question. [ 06-24-2002, 08:17: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:I like a guy who goes for a challenge rather than driving up in the Landcruiser, hopping out and popping one in between the ribs. Of course the latter would be desirable for hunters who are undergunned. | |||
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| one of us |
HI, GEORGE, I hope that is just some facts and no disrespect.I go out of my way never to disrespect anyone as that is the way I want to be treated so I must assume it is just some facts. I would agree with you GEORGE that most bears killed in Maine are under two hundred pounds. I also have said many times that I have not hunted in Africa or hunted BUFF. I hope to someday, I know that a 525 grain bullet going 2200fps will work, I do not care if it comes out of a blow gun, it is still a 525 grain bullet going 2200 fps with a ME of 5,600.Thanks,Kev | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
500 Grains, You still have not answered my question. Factory ammo did not use a 570 or 600 grain pill in either the Gibbs or Jeffery and to my knowledge it still doesn't. Just answer the question please. Oh what sources do you have regarding the poor penetration of the 8 and 4 bores? To answer your question, yes I am. GeorgeS, Thank you for your answer. You have provided more information about yourself to those of use WHO HAVE HUNTED MANY BUFFALO than you can possibly imagine! Todd E | ||
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| Moderator |
quote:No disrespect intended at all. I was just trying to forewarn you. Many outfitters suggest they "get the big bears" and have (seemingly old) photos of such bears, but when you look at their recent results, many of the bears are under 200lbs. Some of these guys run dozens of clients through their camps in a season but hunt a relatively small area. Check them out with NAHC and SCI if you can. Also, be careful: some of the hunts they sell are actually in Canada. This is fine if you know before you book, but it usually adds significantly to the costs (airfare or extra gas, gun permits, and non-resident alien licenses versus non-resident license). Some outfitters also require you to use your own vehicle to get to and from the bait sites. George | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:If you've hunted 'so many buffalo', perhaps you would: a) tell us exactly how many male and female Cape buffalo (not interested in bison at this time) you've shot; and, b] show us some proof of these kills. We're also still waiting for the source material for your statement about the .450 Martini's use on Cape buffalo... Thanks, George [ 06-24-2002, 20:54: Message edited by: GeorgeS ] | |||
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| One of Us |
The only thing I am having difficult imagining is an engineer who cannot understand the relationship between sectional density and penetration. | |||
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| one of us |
500 grains.......which will penetrate more , a properly constructed 45 cal. 400 gr. solid , or a 400 gr .416 soft ? Do you use only solids for your bolt guns hunting buffalo , or softs also ? What do you suppose the sectional density is of a heavy soft AFTER expansion has started ? Do you have any evidence that a good 400 gr .45 solid will not get adequate penetration ? [ 06-24-2002, 22:16: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ] | |||
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