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PH's take bow hunters and Marlin Guide Gun hunters out because they are paid to do so. And Zingela is right that PH's do not upgrade to Guide Guns or bows, probably because they have seen them in action in the field! Almost universally, PH's use controlled feed bolt guns or double rifles. The most common calibers these days seem to be the 458 lott and 470 NE respectively, although the 500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs and 500 NE make a showing. The younger PH's who can't afford much can be seen carrying .375's and .416's, but as they get older they tend to upgrade to something with more stopping power. By the way, I am talking about PH's for buff, elephant, hippo, not PH's hunting plains game. | |||
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TXLoader, I'm not wealthy enough to be a snob or belong to a country club, but I accept that the use of a lever-action in Africa might offend someone's sensibilities. Anyone who hunts dangerous African game is welcome to do so at their own peril and on their own dime. However, when they propose to use an 'underpowered' or 'inappropriate' firearm and ask others their opinion, they should be prepared to hear them. They can ignore the opinions, but it is considered rude to argue (pet peeve of mine). If someone shoots a buffalo with an 'underpowered' or 'inappropriate' firearm just to be able to 'brag about it', they ought to be prepared for people's negative reactions. Nobody likes a braggart. I don't like the idea of using a .45-70 lever-action on thick-skinned DG, but if you want to do so, go wild. If I win the raffle, I'll do it, but I'm not going to enjoy it (much), and I'm going to make sure that my REAL DGR is close at hand! BTW, this is a very telling statement from the penetration test referred to earlier: quote:How can ONE bullet be a trend? George [ 08-14-2002, 01:42: Message edited by: GeorgeS ] | |||
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[ 11-29-2003, 01:01: Message edited by: DPhillips ] | |||
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TaxPhd, If you are truly interested in penetration test results you should visit 470Mbogo's website. He has done some, at least in my opinion, good penetration testing and the results he has achieved match very closely my own and others I know who have done similar tests. It is almost impossible to actually achieve statistically significant penetration predictions on live animals in field conditions. Anyway, I thought I would let you know about Mbogo's website. I know he has an active thread going on the big bore forum called "Big Bore Project #2". Look up his website in his profile. SRS | |||
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George S, you've mellowed out considerably since the start of this thread! I think you hit the nail on the head too. If you want to use a lever, singleshot (I love SS and use them often) or any other thing, USE THEM, dont bother asking " permission" from the forum. you arent hunting africa to put meat in the freezer, it's for your enjoyment. I was bored with the general run of things, so i took a levergun last time. Had a great time with it. Every Namibian hunter who saw it, wondered why the shops dont get some in, they loved it. | |||
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quote:Me, mellowed? Hah! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Actually, this was my stand from the beginning. I never thought it was a good choice of firearm and caliber; I'd rather have a more powerful round. To those who asked the opinions of experienced African hunters, I said as much but invited them to go out and do it, then let us know how it went. My BIGGEST beef is with the guys who have never done it themselves, never will, rely on manufacturers' claims and hacks' shilling, a few actual examples, then demand that I agree with them that it's a good choice. George | |||
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quote:May I assume you know what Seyfried says of a hardcast bullet design, and how it kills, and penetrates further then any other solid bullet? He explains it in several articals, of which I've already quoted. Assuming you do know, then it should have been more then enough to convince you why we consider a 45-70 adequate for hunting DG. A properly made HC bullet should be heavy, have a wide meplat, and travel about 2,000 or "handgun speeds", for it to the most damage. Ask Seyfried, he told us so. He and other hunters already proved this. I can't change facts, but I do accept and support them. It's not our fault the 45-70 don't "make the grade", but it does kill like it does. No one here is trying to take away from the fine reputations and "god-like" qualities of other cartridge/rifle designs. Instead, we are offering an alternitive to the norm. An alternitive that has proven it's worth. I can't understand the anomosity and doubts that abound here by some of the forums more respected members. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Originally posted by ALF: RUSTY GUNN: A 350 gr or 400 gr bullet is the same bullet if it is fired from a 45-70, 458 Win or a 458 Lott. The only difference is the initial velocity at time of leaving the barrel ( if we assume maximum loads for each caliber). I pointed this out once, but it wasn't considered a fair comparison, due to the fact HC bullets are not normally used in a bolt action. Something about them not feeding reliable, or some odd thing. But I agree. No one, esp the animal, knows which cartridge shot the bullet, so its a moot point. So why then would your 45-70 with a hard cast bullet do better than a 458 Win or a 450 lott with the same bullet? It has a lot to do with the design of said HC bullet, not just that its cast hard. Seyfried and a few others have told of this many times. The 45-70 case has a potential case capacity of 51 gr water with a bullet seated, the 458 win 71 gr and the 458 lott about 20 gr more than the 458 win. So which-ever way you look you cannot outperform the 458 Win mag with the 45-70 no matter how you try and a standard loaded 458 Win at less than 2000 fps is marginal on buff I make no claims that the 45-70 will out do these faster rounds, but the fact still remains, the 45-70 has done just fine. Ask Seyfried, and the other hunters whom are quite successful using HC bullets. As to the virtues of the hardcast bullet. They run a fine line between being brittle or to soft to be pushed at 458 Win velocities. No supporter of a HC bullet lay claims to going beyound 45-70 speeds, only the non-supporters have. They point this out quite often with them speed/FPE/SD minimums. To soft and they deform with poor accuracy, to hard and they shear on impact with heavy bone. This is a universal problem in the search for the perfect Buff or Ele bullet and it has until the advent of the monometal brass bullet or Tungsten cored bullet been the enigma to any bullet and ammo maker. ( look at the history of Buff and Ele hunting) Yes, its a fine line, but it is "do-able". Plenty of custom bullet makers have sucessfully made HC bullets that perform well. Dead is dead. What more should a bullet do? Only some who want their bullets to look like the advertisment pictures will declare a HC bullet a failure if it don't look like what they want it to. In modern time culling the SA parks board went as far as turning their own bullets on a lathe for lack of appropriate bullets to effectively put down elephant. If they thought it appropriate, then thats fine. I'm speaking from experience with the 458 win. In the seventies with the US arms embargo in full swing in the RSA we could not get 458 ammo or bullets so we used 400 gr hard cast bullets. These we got made up by Ken Taylor or "Taylor Made" bullets in Pretoria. We "down loaded" our 458's using pistol powder and filler, we loaded them to the hilt to factory spec and shot all and everything with our 458's. Question... were these designed with a wide meplat? A lot can be said of this design. Read what Seyfried, and Brian pearce says about them. This design is a simular concept to the "super penetrator" bullets being tested, although of different material, and a slight dish with the meplat, but a wide meplat none the less, if I'm not mistaken. For ordinary big game I can state without reservation that a 45 cal hardcast will put anything down, with authority! even with a downloaded load! Agreed. I never "fought against this." but hit bone and they shear and break. And it is not only cast bullets that do this, i used to shoot a 460 Weatherby ( I owned 3 at one time) and monometal solids also break. Bullet failure will always be ever present, regardless of advancments made. We're only human, and nothing is perfect. But we do the best we can, with waht we got. Im not against the 45-70 not at all, I shoot one in a Marlin, so do some of my buddies in SA. Mauritz Coetzee at VLT argueably single handedly pioneered the 45-70 on the SA scene with his Ruger No.1. Piet at the now closed Guns and Rifles in Menlyn hunted with me using a rebarreled Martini Henry in 45-70. Al that it is is a downloaded 458 Win mag.... but how much you try it cannot be a 458 Win mag. Again, mistaken identity. We made no such claims as to being the equal of the 458, but a properly made HC bullet with a wide meplat does allow for a very successful 45-70. I can't change the facts, neither can anyone else just because they disagree with it. Understand this, I'm not totally against any other round being used, as I'm quite fond of the 375, 416 Taylor, Mauser actions, Safari rifles, etc, but I don't limit myself with just these fine choices. alternitives do exist, beyound what is considered 'normal'. I keep an open mind, perhaps some others might consider it as well. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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I too am puzzled by the statment that Ross Seyfried thinks that the 45-70 is an appropriate choice for hunting elephant and buffalo. Ross is the inventor of the famed 585 nyati, which I have used to take both elephant and buffalo. If he had said "45-70" instead of "585 nyati", then I could have saved $2000 in custom rifle gunsmithing fees, $150 for dies and $500 for brass and bullets. Not only that, instead of buying those high priced monolithic brass/copper solids or those steel jacket solids, I could have saved even more money by mixing some wheelweights and tin to come up with the toughest, deepest penetrating bullet known to mankind: the "hard cast". What kind of fool am I? | |||
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A couple of issues ago (Handloader or Rifle, I don't remember) in an article on solids, Seyfried mentioned that a hardcast at around 2000fps was something like the "ultimate" in penetration. George | |||
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Rusty Gunn, I'm with you man. I don't recall you saying it ("it" being a lever gun loaded with nice, big hard casts) was "better" just that it would and HAS done the job. I doubt I will ever be able to afford a trip to the Dark Continent to take "The Big 6" like ol' Vince L. but I am sure my 1895G (with 440 Cast Performance bullets or bigger) could handle it if I did. Heck, I don't even see why there is debate on IF the Lever/Hard Cast combo will work. There are PICTURES and last time I checked a picture was worth a thou...well, you get the idea. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:Handloader, June 2002, Powder Keg column, concerning the 45-70 and bullet shapes (solids). Seyfried is speaking of various solid bullet shapes, as it partains to penetration and destruction of tissue. "...after 30 years of experimenting with and studying solid performance, both in controlled (wet paper and bones) and uncontrolled (deer, elk, hippo, buffalo and elephants) tests, I have some knowledge and opinions." He's telling of his experince with these animals, and various solid bullts. Anyone who reads the artical will know he speaks of all manner of solids, including HC bullets, simply because of what he says later in the artical. "If the velocity is not too high, "handgun speed" or less then 2,000 fps, heat-treated lead alloys are spectacular." Hmmm, don't the 45-70 shoot at these speeds, or less, and using HC bullets? Did he say spectacular? "The LBT handgun shapes are wonderful because of their truncated-radious flat points." Again, the LBT bullets have a very wide meplat (flat point). "Perhaps the last edge goes to flat point bullets, with the final cryteria not to eck out the last quarter inch of penetration, but extreme penetration in a straight line, combined with lots of destruction on the way." Need I say more? Please share what Seyfried has to say, I'm sure everyone would like to hear of it. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Big yawn...stretch...scratch...yawn. Sheesh! Another day and this silly thread is still on Page 1! I sure hope you guys don't intend to turn this into another "Match King" thread. Saeed, if the lever action fanatics and the big-bore, bolt action disciples want to spend the rest of their lives debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, maybe you could create a new Forum for them! You could call it the "Metaphysical Ballistics Forum." Or, maybe they could just agree to disagree and move on to more interesting subjects. How 'bout it guys? | |||
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Mark is SC, You have indeed summed it all up with "Metaphysical Ballistics Forum." Well stated! As far as agreeing to disagree. .well, if you own it and think it's the greatest you'll just defend it, even after being ground into dirt. It's just the way we are! Rusty We band of brothers! | ||
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HI, ALF, I have put in a great deal of time and money on this subject, and I have to came to concluded that the 50 Alaskan is not enough,it will push a 500 grain bullet to 2,000 fps.This is why I went with a 50-110 it will get 200 to 250 fps more than a 50 AK, I plan on getting a 570 grain WFN to 2,000 to 2,100 fps with this bullet weight I will have enough SD, and it works in a win 86 as the win86 has had this round in it for around 100 years.I have reloading data that push a 525 grain bullet to near 2,200 fps and will have my gun very soon from MR. Clay.This puts it around a 505 Gibbs in power and from a lever-action, but it is not a 4570 as I too think more power is needed. Thanks,Kev | |||
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SRS, you are wrong, you said realistic fps with a 50-110 525 is 2050 fps. Talk to BBA and they can help you, they are getting 2,150 fps with a 525 without a problem and I was informed I could even get a few more grains in that load as well. I will have my 50-110 from MR. Clay soon and reloading data with it that shows a 525 grain at 2150 fps easy and if a 50 AK gets a 500 grain at 2,000 fps and a 50-110 geta 200-250 fps more,I know because I had a 50 AK and did that, the 50-110 will get a 525 to 2200 fps. I plan on going to a 570 grain FWN to 2000-2100 fps. I am getting custom moulds made for that bullet weight now, CALL BBA, CALL MR. CLAY . Thanks,Kev | |||
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ALF... Take Seyfried's words for what they are worth to you. I value them highly. You are certainly welcome to discount them as you please. It is known Seyfried carried a revolver in 475 Linebaugh when hunting cape buffalo, as a back-up. He uses HC bullets, just as what we are discussing here. And he sure shoots them at less speed then a 470 Capstick, thats for sure! Just think, the same bullet design, of hardcast make, with a wide meplat, are shot in his 475 but some how it don't work when shot from a 45-70! Damn! How can this be? Well, it sure ain't the velecity, even Seyfried mentions 2,000 fps or less when shooting HC bullets, not some minimum 2,400 argued here. I imagine one might argue a monometal flat nose LBT bullet may do better then a lead one, but a properly made hardcast bullet does just fine, enough for Seyfried to speak highly of them. The reason is a lead bullet is more dense, thus has more weight forward in the nose, which makes for better penetration in a straighter line. I gather it must also be the design of the bullet, with its wide meplat doing the damage, and the heavy weight offering plenty of momentum to penetrate beyound what one "thinks' it will do. regardless of what you nay-sayers "think", it won't change the facts, a 45-70 with a properly made HC bullet sporting a wide meplat kills well. And please, share what Seyfried had to say to you. ~~~Suluuq [ 08-18-2002, 08:25: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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In a 1990 article in Rifle, Seyfried called the 458 win mag 'anemic'. I wonder what he would call the 45-70. Perhaps 'anorexic.' | |||
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Kev, I could be mistaken. I based my statement on the fact that the useable case capacity of the 50-110 with a 525gr Woodleigh bullet's profile would be about 3-5 gr less than the useable case capacity of a 458 Win Mag. I then assumed a linear relationship with a 5% increase in efficiency for the larger bore of the 50-110 and arrived at the 2050 fps at 40,000 CUP number. Please remember that the 458 Win Mag will only get about 2150 - 2200 fps with a 500 grain slug and a peak pressure of 50,000 CUP. When you get your rifle I would wager that over an Oehler my numbers may well be closer to what you get than the advertising would suggest. I would also wager that you could get 2200 fps with a 525 gr slug in the 50-110, but at a peak pressure of 48,000 - 50,000 CUP! Your M1886 would most likely survive a few firings at those pressures but in the end I fear that these loads would prove to be detrimental to both firearm and shooter! I would be suspious of advertised velocities for a 50-110 that are over say 2100 fps with a 500+ gr slug. Remember Weatherby for decades advertised the 460 with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. This was never the actual case. SRS | |||
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HI, When the rifle arrives it will have reloading data with it, but I have talk to MR. Sundles and he is getting 2150 fps with 525 grain bullet in the 50-110 and the reloading data with the rifle will have the same data. The win 86 action is very strong, stronger than a Marlins and my smith has assured me it will not be a problem.In fact I saw told a person even chambered it with a 300 win mag once?, Thanks,Kev | |||
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quote:I imagine its anemic when compared to other stronger rounds such as the 460 Whby, and such. But its done fine all these years, wittnessed by all the rifles used by PH's. One thing you and a few others can't get beyound is "levergun" and "45-70". You see these two words and you come up with the negitive posts. Its more then just this. What you are not understanding (I think you really do understand, but must deny it to keep up with the animosity), is what Seyfried says about the very bullets used, and how and why they kill. Read what he says, I posted a few excerps previously. The same HC bullets used in revolvers are used in leverguns. This is what I mean when I refer to the bullet doing the killing, get it? I'm not going to explain what you should already have learned when reading Seyfried's articals. Thats your problem, not mine. You can either acknowledge the round does fine on all manner of game becaue of the bullets used, or you can deny the whole thing. Your choice. But understand this, when you deny it, you are also denying what Seyfried has taught us. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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500groans, If the 458 Winnie is "anemic" then the 45/70 is "cachectic." Alf and Suluuq, The article by Ross in the "Powder Keg" was merely some free associations by Mr. Seyfried. Those quotations are lifted out of context. Reading the article in its entirety will show that Mr. Seyfried is in no way advocating hard cast bullets in a 45/70 for cape buffalo or elephant. Ross is quite big on stunt shooting with revolvers, so the 45/70 is just another stunt to him too, only a less he-manly one, deserving of less bragging rights than a revolver or spear. Like wearing bib overalls to a cocktail party. Yeah it can be done, to be eccentric mainly. I do not expect this to be the last word on this subject ... again. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} [ 08-19-2002, 09:00: Message edited by: DaggaRon ] | |||
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quote:When one reads the whole artical, you will see he makes comparisons between HC bullets (the main basis of the artical was a 45-70 and flat nose bullets, and the shapes of the solid bullets). And he does say a HC bullet with a wide meplat does better then other solid nose shapes. In penetration and tissue destruction, at 2000 fps or less, the same speeds a 45-70 shoots at. Knowing what Seyfried has said in the past, and in that artical, one can use their brain and detect the connection between a HC used in a revolver and one used in a levergun, and determine its the same thing. A HC bullet used in his revolvers is the sdame as whats used in leverguns. I'm sure ALF's responce from Seyfried will enlighten you just the same as it will him. Well, now Seyfried is slapped down to "stunt shooting"? Degrading others who go against what you "thought" was right is childish. The fact of the matter is, a HC bullet just kills different then what you were taught. Nothing special about it, it just does things different. Just because you don't understand this concept don't make it wrong. Seyfried deserves more respect then this put-down, its not his fault you don't understand this. BTW those quotes were not taken out of context. There were his words, as he compared a HC to other bullet designs. ~~~Suluuq [ 08-19-2002, 11:25: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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RAB, Perhaps an advantage the 45/70 would have is that it does feed like the vertical stack magazine and so can use bullet shapes that would be highly unreliable in either the 458 Win or 458 Lott as those two are borderline feeding round nose bullets. Perhaps another factor is that for a given weight and shape the cast bullets will be shorter than the steel jacketed solids or solid copper bullets. Then being very flat..flat points they would be even shorter. Given that the 458 Win and 458 Lott are very unreliable with big flat points to the point of you would not use them, perhaps it is really down to 45/70 Lever Guns and Doubles as being the best for dangerous game. What say ye. Mike [ 08-19-2002, 12:14: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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There are definite hydrodynamic advantages associated with the flat point design. An inverted radius flat (more accurately cupped) point amplifies these hydrodynamic benefits even better. These hydrodynamic benefits manifest themselves as follow: 1.) Straight line penetration, due solely to a pressure "cone" generated along the long axis of the bullet. 2.) Less hydrodynamic drag, due again the the large diameter pressure "cone" generated along the long axis of the bullet. This means in simple english that the bullet will penetrate deeper! The disadvantages are: 1.) Reduced ballistic coefficient. Poor long range trajectory. 2.) Increased initial contact area with target, which reduces penetration potential in "hard" targets. This would mean ele skulls and armor plate. Essentially, what we are talking about is the fact that penetration is largely due to the force of the bullet divided by the bullets contact cross sectional area. Since the flat point bullet starts out with a large contact cross sectional area it initiates penetration with far less surface pressure than a pointed "spitzer" style bullet. This phenomena is nothing more than the principal of inclined planes. A long gradually sloping bullet will penetrate a "hard" target better. The round nose is not a good design period. For my money I will use a spitzer or a flat point. A very good bullet is the old Schuler design used in the 500 Jeffery. One simply needs to take the small round point and cut it off. Now, you have a good inclined plane with a descent sized flat metplat to provide excellent penetration and trauma in tissue and very good penetration in "hard" material. By all means please continue on with the pointless arguements. I have a question for everyone. In light of the now published fact, that a 45-70 (or equivalent) with a flat point hard cast bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps will out penetrate the traditional big bore DGR cartridges, will a 50 BMG shooting a 650 gr armor peircing round match or exceed the 45-70? Remember the BMG is spitting a high BC bullet out the muzzle at an incredible 2950 fps. This BMG bullet also is very pointed with long gradually sloping sides. SRS [ 08-19-2002, 18:18: Message edited by: SRS ] | |||
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Suluuq, Of course Ross Seyfried is a stunt shooter, and this is no "slap down." Ross even designed a stunt cartridge known as the 585 Nyati, and was gracious enough to recommend it as a "nightmare" when the novelty wore off. If I told Ross that he was a stunt shooter to his face, he would probably smile and thump his chest and emit a Tarzan yodel. Mike, Gee, I would rather get a bolt action to feed a GSC FN than consider a lever action. Of course a double rifle is tops for DG, even with something like the Woodleigh or old style Hornady steel FMJ's, and these are adequate in a bolt action too. The Speer AGS tungsten core solid is hard to beat, and works fine in a bolt. Are you pulling my leg? If so, Ha Ha Ha. If not, Ha Ha Ha. SRS, I give up, which penetrates better, a 50 BMG with AP bullet or a 45/70 with hard cast lead flat nose? The suspense is killing me! ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Originally posted by DaggaRon: Suluuq, Of course Ross Seyfried is a stunt shooter, and this is no "slap down." Ross even designed a stunt cartridge known as the 585 Nyati, and was gracious enough to recommend it as a "nightmare" when the novelty wore off. I suppose "500 Grains" is a stunt hunter, then. He uses one of these stunt rifles on DG. some others here as well. Otay, if you insist. If I told Ross that he was a stunt shooter to his face, he would probably smile and thump his chest and emit a Tarzan yodel. Hey, "500 Grains"... lets here your best Tarzan yodel! (take it up with Ron, not me. I'm joking, he isn't)~~~Suluuq[ 08-20-2002, 11:14: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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RustyGunn, Have you shot buffalo and elephant with a 45-70 and hard cast lead bullets? | |||
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quote:Have you? Whats your point? Others have, but thats not enough to verify they work, right? You need a hundred such kills, first right? Comparing what I've hunted and what you've hunted don't and won't change the facts. So, whats your point, other then to brag at least you've hunted them? Isn't this what you're getting at with that question? You somehow think this would make up for your lack of knowledge, or perhaps cover it ip? Sorry to break it to you, but it won't. Facts are facts. A clear understanding of how and why a heavy HC LBT bullet kills is something that eludes you. Read Seyfried. Ask Randy Garrett, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, John Linebaugh, etc, and all the hunters who did shoot such game about this. They have something you might want to hear, if you're up to it. Then again, maybe not. You're choice. Mine is to keep an open mind, and learn something. BTW I'm still waiting for Seyfried's responce to ALF's inquiary. ~~~Suluuq [ 08-21-2002, 07:13: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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500grains, My what a thread you have started! I would like to hear you and Ross Seyfried give a good Tarzan yodel together. And all those 45/70 levergun cape buffalo hunters can join in too! We might get some nice harmonizing going. All together now ... | |||
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quote:FYI, none of those guys ever used a .45-70 lever-action on African dangerous game, and only Seyfried has taken dangerous game with a hardcast bullet (using a revolver). George | |||
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quote:Well, had it ever occured to you I was refering to the HC bullet? My words... "A clear understanding of how and why..." should have tipped you off, but I leave that up to you to decide if you got it. Shooting DG is not the only measure of a bullet. BTW that same HC bullet design Seyfried shoots in his 475 is the same one that is used in the 475 GNR, another levergun cartridge, based on the 45-70 case. Do you think it will do poorly now, just because it was shot from a levergun? All you folks see is "45-70" and "levergun", but you don't seem to understand its more then this. You can't seem to get beyound these two words. As long as you focus on them, you must figure perhaps the facts won't show. ~~~Suluuq [ 08-21-2002, 09:15: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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Suluuq You make a good point there. A similar thing is seen with the 416 Rigby and 416 Remington and 375 Ultra and 375 H&H. It seems that if Remington introduced loaded back factory ammo for the 375 Ultra, then all of a sudden it would be suitable. Also, 416 Rigby is 100% acceptable but 416 Wby goes too fast, yet as near as I can tell about everyone here is a reloader. Although I have only shot roo and pig size animals, after having shot them in the 1000s over 30 years, I am prepared to accept the possibility that a 500 grainer in the 458 at 2000 could be found to be wanting while at 1600 and 2300 it could be a real hero. The reason I would accept the possibility is because of all the things I have seen that should not have been possible I do think there is some holy ground here and RAB said as much when I suggested the only really true CRF bolt action was one that had vertical stack magazine. To me staggered feed is uncontrolled feeding. Mike [ 08-21-2002, 10:40: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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Mike, Yep, a vertical stack magazine holding five rounds would get the 375 RUM out of the gutter and make the 458 Lott feed wide meplat bullets slicker than greased owl crap.How about a mechanism whereby a tubular magazine could be used on a DGR, keeping everything in line for use of those amazing hard cast flat nose bullets, or Norberts SuperPenetrators, but not projecting awkwardly out of the bottom of the action? Just like my old Marlin 45/70, but with Mauser bolt action otherwise, and the action big enough to handle the T.rex. Of course the magazine tube would have to be made integral to the barrel for a proper DGR. | |||
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RAB, That Rem 700 safari gun in 375 Ultra has 3 shot vertical stack detachable. Should not be too hard to have that made into more shots. Needs a Sako style extractor fitted because they are just nicer to use. That rifle is also in 416 Rem and 375 and 458 so 458 Lott would be easy and with no feeding problems. That will be better than tubular as you can't have spare magazine with tubular. Well, I guess you could if you had to really have one. Note: If you have shot lots of shots in the field you will soon find out that staggered feed in straight cases like the 458 Win and Lott are trouble unless spitzers like Barnes Xs are loaded. I hate to upset anyone but a Marlin will feed those flat noses far better than a 458 bolt gun with staggered feed Mike | |||
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