This whole topic is a rather off-beat, theoretical mindblower if you'd ask me.

Think about this: There is a sizeable contingent of hunters out there who think that the .458 Winchester isn't worth a damn as a dangerous game rifle. At the same time, we have folks who will swear up and down that a lever rifle in .45-70, especially when fed some sort of magic, new-age bullet, is the deadliest killer of dangerous game on Planet Earth - to which I say, "bullshit!"

A bolt action rifle in .458 Winchester, when loaded to its potential with quality bullets, will out-perform any .45-70 ever made, and that's the plain truth. Wishful thinking doesn't cut too much ice with me. Load both of these cartridges with the same bullets to the max, then run them both over the chronograph and report the results. Let's see what happens.......

To hedge my bet, I have a .458 Lott on order.......

AD

Harald,

We live in an elastic world, do we not? Steel is an elastic material, even hardened armor plate. Water is an elastic material as well. The relative elasticities are many many orders of magnitude different between steel and water. Are you with me so far? Water resists penetration, otherwise no one would get hurt jumping off bridges into deep pools of water.

You statements regarding penetration are grossly simplified in that you agreed with another individuals statements which to were grossly simplified. I find it uniquely interesting that until I corrected another poster sometime ago about the erroneous term hydra static (the correct term is hydro dynamic) you also used the term hydra static.

Based upon your statements I seriously doubt you are what you say you are. If you are indeed a ballistician I can see why Iraq went to Canada. I am not going to slam you any longer. While it is easy to search out past mistruths you have spoken it is hardly worth the time. I am even easier to get mistruths on than you. I frequently post BS just to figure out if someone arguing with me has a clue as to what they are talking about. Sadly here, they frequently do not.

GeorgeS,
You are insecure because you are so vehemently opposed to any differning opinions or correcting facts. You have brutally waged war upon the poor lever action guys for no other reason than they like the lever action.

500grains,
You are GeorgeS' greatest ally in the war against those that differ than you two on the merits of actions other than bolts for DG. You STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION WITH ONE SHRED OF FACTUAL DATA.

Karl,

I do not know what the hell your problem is. If you do not think water resists penetration why don't push your car off of a tall bridge into a deep pool of water. I for one have never seen penetration from any AP 5.56 bullet that equaled the standard FMJ 7.62 projectile. Things must truly be upside down and backwards in Australia!

It amazes me how I am often questioned for stating a fact or even an opinion, but other can post so called expert opinion/fact, which to the educated is obviously bunk, but they are lauded as greatly wise and knowledgeable.

I have only recently returned to hunting after a nearly 20 year absence from the sport. What amazes me is how much the sport has changed. By that I mean commercially. Now you must have scent blockers and silent clothing. I cannot understand how I ever managed to shoot anything (or do now) since I never had all this new stuff that many of you state must be used to be at all successful. Hunters used to be much nicer to each other also. You guys are nasty, inconsiderate, and rude! There are a few here that are descent people, but most are well I want say.

George to be very honest I have not been mad at any of you although my posts may have seemed otherwise. I have only been stirring pot. I honestly do not know wear most of my hunting pictures from yesteryear are. I have moved probably 5 times since I last hunted in 1983. I simply do not have time or the will to dig through old boxes that have been in too many attics over the years. I also do not remember taking too many pictures. I have only three or four pictures of my drag race car and I only know where one of those is. Oh, I raced instead of hunted. I am not a vain or boastful person and do not take pictures as a rule.

So you can believe me a liar and a wannabe I really don't care. For me I have gotten absolutely nothing out of any of you posts. I do beleive that you are from NYC though as you are one whiny cry baby individual.

Todd E

[ 06-27-2002, 02:43: Message edited by: Todd E ]

Todd,

I posted the penetration index information.

That is factual and mathematically sound data which you choose to ignore.

GEORGE, I know about the 450-110DRC as I just talk with MR. Clay the man who made it. I also am getting a 50-110 which he is making for me. BBA has already done reloads with a 525 grain and are getting 2150 fps easy. So this is not something new it is here. There will be no problem with it working here or Africa. I talk to MR. Clay at length about this and it is working fine and no problem at all. I hear about the 450-110 , which is going to be great, but the 50-110 is here already, and is using a 525 grain at 2200 fps. I even ask MR. Sundles and he would take the 50-110 over the 450-110, but both would work great. Thanks,Kev one more thing I talk to MR. Clay about pushing a 525 to 2200fps and that should not be a problem. I think I will get more.

Yeah, I am the culprit there and while I know where Ray is coming from, my point is - and I maintain it - that SD as provided in manuals or calculated is not a useful figure. You are better off working directly with bullet mass and presented area as it varies during the event. Beyond this, the nose shape has as much influence on penetration as does the bullet mass. Tapering round noses have a bad tendency to swerve and tumble, while broad flat noses stay true and often far outpenetrate designs that look like they would go deeper. For solids the SD comes closer to being a real measure, but the nose shape is still out there and not accounted for (properly) in any formula that I have seen. SD is undeformed bullet weight and diameter, so for solids it is related to quantities that you have throughout the penetration event, provided the solids don't deform or tumble. But these things do happen. In the case of soft points I would not depend on a high SD necessarily corresponding with a high penetration. It should, but things don't always turn out that way and many a bullet of lesser SD has significantly better penetration due to its design characteristics. I confess freely that I expect heavier bullets to go deeper until proven otherwise, but I find the opposite all too often true.

Getting back to an old retort regarding my Model 71. I have two such rifles and both have difficulty extracting cases when the loads get hot. It isn't because either is defective. They are both practically new and flawless recent production Brownings. It also hasn't got the first thing to do with action strength. Primary extraction ability has to do with the leverage and grip of the extractor on the case rim. On a lever action rifle it is mighty puny. I have had the same exact problem in the past with hot loads in my Ruger No. 1 45-70, so its not a question of tapered bottleneck cases versus straight cases. In fact, the reason why they tapered cases in the old days was to assist in extraction. You will never find one of those old double rifles shooting a cartridge blown out with minimal body taper because if the pressure gets even slightly out of spec or the chamber gets even a little dirty it will refuse to come out of the chamber. That works OK on a bolt action most of the time, but its a bad idea on a lever action unless you keep the pressures below something in the 35 to 40 ksi range. The old doubles kept loads below about 35 ksi. People rightly point out that it was because the old smokeless powders of the time would give pressure spikes in hot weather and that is true, but the concern was not that the gun would blow up, it was that you couldn't extract your cases reliably.

If that 50 cal round can really push a 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps at safe pressures (which I still doubt), then it could also push a 570 grain bullet at 2100 fps. The latter would be dangerous game cartridge. Essentially it would be a 500 nitro express (if the ballistics are true, which is still in doubt).

I assume Kev will use quality solids in it, rather than cast lead?

Todd E,

Since you have confessed your propensity for deception this is perhaps a pointless rejoinder, but for the record:

I have NEVER used the term "hydra static". Perhaps you are faulty in your memory or maybe you are, again, lying. I have many times made the point both here and on my website that the term "hydrostatic shock" is not a proper term at all, in fact it is an oxymoron, a misnomer, and connotes conditions that cannot exist in the physical world.

Elasticity is a property of solids, not fluids. Water is not elastic. It does not return to its original shape after a force is applied and then removed. It doesn't have a shape unless it is confined. The mechanical properties of interest in ballistics relating to bullet impacts at velocities below 4000 fps for solids are (mass) density, modulus of elasticity, Poisson's ratio and hardness or yield strength. Where fluids are concerned at these velocities we are interested in (mass) density, viscosity and compressibility. We might be further interested in whether the fluid can be modeled as a Newtonian fluid or if it exhibits thixotropic behavior.

Again, Karl's remarks are spot on. Nor did he offer any simplistic explanation of penetration mechanics. He simply stated facts. And I have yet to see a 7.62 mm plain FMJ that will penetrate armor as well as a 5.56 mm SS109. The steel core AP ball is close, but the lead core can't cut it. True 5.56 mm AP is far better still (16 mm RHA at 100 m).

Incidentally, Gerald Bull, while a morally dubious mad scientist, may have been the greatest ballistician in history. That is why "Iraq went to Canada". We would have been smarter to keep him gainfully employed here rather than cutting his R&D budget back in the 70s, especially since we now want exactly the kinds of things he produced two decades ago.

That you are getting a degree in early childhood development is a horrifying thought. I sincerely hope that this is yet another manifestation of your deceit.

HI,

Just E-mailed GS Custom Bullets about my order of 100 rounds of there 500grain FNs Jeffery bullets, I hope they will let me know when they come in. I talk to them before and they told me it will work fine in the win 86.I think they are very good bullets and will penetrate well.AS for the 525 at 2200fps call BBA and ask them, they got a 525 going at 2150 fps without a problem.The win 86 or 71 or simular type will handle that without a problem.And I am waiting for my 50-110 brass from starline, whch should be coming in soon. Kev

HI,

Just E-mailed GS Custom Bullets about my order of 100 rounds of there 500grain FNs Jeffery bullets, I hope they will let me know when they come in. I talk to them before and they told me it will work fine in the win 86.I think they are very good bullets and will penetrate well.AS for the 525 at 2200fps call BBA and ask them, they got a 525 going at 2150 fps without a problem.The win 86 or 71 or simular type will handle that without a problem.And I am waiting for my 50-110 brass from starline, which should be coming in soon. Kev

Kev,
I don't doubt that the 50/110 can approach 2200 fps with 525 grainers. I would be concerned about the GS customs or any other monolithic solid because they are made of copper which is lighter than lead and subsequently longer for its weight.

The GS may be difficult to get those velocities out of because it will eat into the powder capacity of the straight walled 50/110 case. I believe that hard cast lead may be a better choice because lead is more dense and will be shorter and will give more powder capacity within the COAL limits of the 86 Win. action.

Good luck and good shooting,
Jeff Collins

HI,

LETS JUST CUT TO THE CHASE NOT IF, IT HAS PERIOD.AND WHEN I POST THE FPS WITH MY PACT PROFESSIONAL CHRONOGRAGH, I AM SURE THE SAME PEOPLE WILL SAY YOUR CHRONOGRAGH IS WRONG. I WILL SAY NO MORE ABOUT THIS TOPIC THE FACTS ARE THERE. IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THE MOON IS MADE OF CHEESE I GUESS YOU WILL EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL BE WRONG. CALL,I SAY CALL BBA. KEV

kev,

There is no need to get upset. You have not chronographed the loads, so you don't know what they will show. Period. When you chronograph the loads, post them.

The statements of any manufacturer are highly suspect. Have you noticed that stated 7mm STW velocities are now 200 fps lower than when the cartridge was introduced? The same holds true with most new caliber and product offerings. We have good reason to be suspicious of the 50-110 suddenly and magically turning into a 500 jeffery.

Why don't you just get a model 1886 rebarreled to 500 jeffery?

HI,

Not upset, just do not understand why it is so hard for some people to think a lever could not perform at a high level. I did E-mail MR. Sundle about the 525 at 2200fps and he said that would be pushing it.I still think I will be within that area within 20 or 30 fps. Kev

Scott,
You said penetration was proportional to bullet diameter, and that this is contrary to common sense, in your previous post.

I think the PI formula indicates "inversely proportional" instead.

Of what benefit could Turd E be in explaining this to you? Do you solicit the opinions of liars when you seek the truth?

And if PI = [(KE/CSA)](SD), then Penetration Index is inversely proportional to the fourth power of bullet diameter.

Whether this is common sense is conjectural, but it does indicate that a needle with a lot of kinetic energy is a good penetrator.

Daggaron,

My math was indeed incorrect. That is what I wanted to get straight; my "solution" would indicate that a BB would penetrate much better than a needle, and that of course is contrary to common sense, and based on my incorrect reduction of the formula (at least I think so).

I am still working on it, but here is what I have so far:

P*k = VVMM/DDDD

where P is our arbitrary index, k is a constant that compensates for the unit conversions and implied constants depending on the units used, V is velocity in fps, M is mass in grains, D is diameter in inches.

k in this instance would be equal to roughly

(10^10 / 4)

but because it is an index, we really don't care, and can substitute PI for kP, PI being our scale in "penetration units", whatever that may be.

So

PI = (V^2 M^2) / (D^4)

or for you non-shorthand types (you know who you are):

PI = VVMM/DDDD

I'll stop here before I assume myself right out of my chair

DAGGARON and SCOTT B, you guys need to put this into language that a simple guy like me will know what you are talking about.I am kidding around a little, but very good stuff. Thanks,Kev

You mean I'm not the only one I have confused?

How about this:

Given the same bullet design, the penetration improves with increases in either velocity or bullet weight, and gets worse with any increase in bullet diameter.

Well, heck! Did we really need a formula for that? LOL!

(edited due to typo)

[ 07-02-2002, 22:27: Message edited by: ScottB ]

Scott,

What you are trying to say is:

That penetration increases with force and decreases with increasing bullet diameter (provided that force remains constant).

mv/dt is force.

Where dt is the time differential.

"Section density" is useless so forget about it.

Of key interest in penetration (simplified greatly and assuming identical bullet geometry)is that cross sectional area of the bullet, and the force with which is strikes the target. The target will be penetrated if the pressure exerted by the bullet (remember pressure is force / cross sectional area) is greater than the shear strength of the target. The instant that the bullets force divided by it's (the bullets) cross sectional area is less than the shear strength of the target is the instant penetration ceases!

So all you care about is bullet force and bullet cross sectional area. Therefore, as long as you increase the bullet force proportionally to the bullet cross sectional area penetration will remain unchanged.

Since area is increased by the square of the bullets diameter multiplied by pi/4. We need only increase either the bullets mass and/or velocity by the same incremental amount to achieve the same penetration.

Your attempts was very good. I think your only hang up was the red herring called "SECTION DENSITY" again it is a meaningless metric! A metric is a measurement for those that do not know such things. So again, translated this time, "SECTION DENSITY" is a meaningless measurement!

Believe me or not. As RAB the all knowing know it all says I am a liar and (dare I say it) a Troll. Give me a break!!

New name under construction

I still favor TR's .405 winchester that he refered to as his "big medicine."

This will be my first post on this forum. Talk about jumping into a fire. Let me say that I read as much as I can about big game hunting. Beyond that I have ZERO to offer. For those of you fortunate to have plied the Dark Continent in pursuit of dangerous game, thank the Good Lord. You have been blessed with an experience most will only dream of.

I have read every post. After I read every post I went back and re-read the original post.

"Are lever actions a good choice for a dangerous game rifle?" Specifically for elephant, cape buffalo, rhino and hippo.

After reading all the posts, it occured to me that the respondents could have lost sight of the original topic. I want to speak to (not definitively answer) the question.

I'll immediately offer that lever guns are not the IDEAL choice. But are they a GOOD choice? Believe it or not I looked up the word good in Webster's. WOW! That didn't clear anything up. I think the definition that best suits this situation is "well-founded."

I don't recall that anyone here has mentioned that the situations under which the various species of dangerous game can be hunted are widely varied. My belief is that there are situations under which a "souped-up" lever gun would make a good choice.

Completely ignored in this picture has been the hunter. Without the hunter, the gun is nothing. I would rather hunt alongside a well trained, sharp minded man with a properly loaded lever gun, than with a bwana wanna be who bought the most expensive CRF chambered for a cartridge bearing Capstick's namesake then shot a half a box of shells with it.

With the recent rebirth of the lever gun and the continuous development of lever gun ammo, we are seeing more of them show up on safari. I don't think anyone here can deny the recent successes, though limited in number. I have not had any exposure to catastrophic failure of a properly emloyed lever gun. You can't even get into a good argument over something unless both sides have some merits. Such is the case here.

Ideal? No. Good? Yes.

Paul Barnard

Jeffe,
I have heard it said that the 458 Winchester Magnum is insufficient for dangerous game. Since the 416 Taylor is a necked down version of the same I would suppose that the same individuals that dislike the 458 Winchester's performance will dislike the 416 Taylor's as well. I guess I am saying that you can expect an argument!

It is my understanding that the 416 Taylor and the 458 Winchester operate at a maximum of 60,000 psi chamber pressure. Since the Browning BLR is chambered in the 300 Winchester Magnum these pressures should be safe. When you get your rifle completed please share all the details with us.

SRS

If someone prefers a lever, I have no problem with it. I do not believe it is as reliable an action design as a CRF bolt, or a double, but that's fine.

My primary gripe is with those who use inadequate calibers because of their desire to use a lever. A 416 Taylor can push a 400 grain bullet at 2200-2300 without excessive pressure, and that is adequate for buffalo. It is not a stopping rifle, but it is certainly a fine client rifle.

PAUL BARNARD,that was the best sum -up of the whole topic I have heard yet. Kev

HI,

I just heard some good new, at least to me it is.MR. Sundles just let me know he got a 525 grain bullet to 2150 fps out of his 20 inch barrel. This makes me happy as a few people here said they could not believe that a 50-110 would get a 525 grain close to 2200 fps. I will have the same basic gun as MR. Sundles, but will have a 2/3 inch muzzle brake on it, which can be removed. And according to MR. Clay should add a 45 to 55 fps more. So without pushing the load that MR. Sundles listed I should be very close to 2200 fps.And all out of a lever gun. Thanks,Kev

Not to make anyone mad but do any of you ever actually hunt or do you just stay on these damn computers all the time and dream.Dangerous game in Africa.... I bet you don't even get out of the house.

No amount of ranting or "magic hard cast bullets" will ever make a lever action Marlin in 45/70 a dangerous game rifle! So far, all I have seen are 4 pictures of people with buffalo and their Marlin 45/70. It is just a stunt, that is all it is, nothing more.
A hold over straight walled black powder round that people have been trying to make into the worlds best killer. Get a life! It doesn't even meet the minimums for power as a dangerous game round.

This thread is just a DEAD HORSE

[ 08-05-2002, 11:52: Message edited by: Rusty ]

Rusty,

Tell that to all the buffalo that bit the dust from a 9,3X62. This doesn't meet the minimum either.

Rusty,

Which black powder straight walled hold over cartridge are you referring to. The 450 NE , 500 NE, 577 NE, 45-70, etc.

I agree this is a dead horse. For the life of me I cannot understand all the anomosity. I do not believe anyone has stated that the 45-70 or it's offspring will be mandatory for hunting DG. I think a great many here need to grow-up a bit.

[ 08-06-2002, 07:05: Message edited by: Todd E ]

[ 08-06-2002, 07:07: Message edited by: Todd E ]

Have read this thread with a bit of interest and a lot of disbelief.

Bolt actions and doubles the only good rifles for dangerous game? Even to one who's still new at the game and hasn't visited the Dark Continent, that smacks more of prejudice and personal bias than anything else.

Yes, all of you who've been hunting the M'Bogo know what works for you. You've been there, but you had to learn from someone what worked for them, correct? From generation to generation of hunters, Africa game hunting has been influenced much more by the European gun makers than American. Correct? And who shot these rifles? Mainly the European well-to-do (using the double rifle) and the European colonizers (using bolt actions). Suppose for a moment the Europeans had mass-produced lever-actions instead of bolt actions for colonists to use in Africa for defense and hunting...It would be the lever-action with the great historical track record of success in Africa, not the bolt. And it would be the instances of CRF actions jamming being cited here as evidence of their "unsuitablitity" to the African game scene, would it not? Put the shoe on the other foot and think about it.

What has been American hunting been dominated by? Up until WW1, it was mostly muzzleloaders, trapdoors, and lever actions. It was remarked correctly that it was the 45/70 which was used to destroy the vast herds of North American Bison, which, anatomically and biologically speaking, isn't very much different in build and temperament from the Cape Buff - though I'm sure to get flamed for that by the "those that have been there" pro's...the bolt action truthfully is the "johnny-come-lately" to the hunting scene here: only now the 30-06 and the 270 win are coming close to the lowly 30-30 and 45/70 rifles as the "modern" calibers most used historically to take game in America. Does that mean the 30-30 and 45/70 are better at it? No. Just that they've been used longer. The same argument applies for the actions and calibers used over in Africa. Different histories with different preferences.

A couple more thoughts to fuel the fire....First, suppose the two animals were switched-the Cape Buff inherent to North America, and the Bison to Africa. Would this then mean the 45/70 wouldn't be deemed suitable for the "African Bison"?

Second, The 45/70 used to decimate the bison herds was not of the lever action class being debated here. It was the much weaker trapdoor, falling block, and rolling block action designs such as the Sprigfield and Creedmore carbines. If those rifles in 45/70 could generate enough power with black powder to kill the bison, couldn't it also have done the same on an animal of simlar build and temperament on another continent? Sound reason would say yes. And why couldn't the stronger lever action with stronger smokeless powder serve with better results?

The bickering about whether the lever-action is suitable for dangerous game is really moot. Both the bison and the Cape buff were hunted with great success by the indigenous peoples of both continents using bows, arrows, and spears - and that without the need for PH's with big strong rifles. Dangerous? Yes! But these people knew their skills, knew their weopons, and were taught how to use both effectively. It was placement of the strike then, and that is still the point today, whether that is with a 600 Nitro Express double rifle, a 45/70 lever action, or an African spear.

What makes a rifle suitable? Each hunter has their own preference as to what's "suitable"...but that doesn't automatically make another class of action "unsuitable", does it? Common sense ought to tell us this.

Now, to get back to lurking and learning, and awaiting the roasting to begin...

TXLoader

[ 08-06-2002, 20:31: Message edited by: TXLoader ]

So are you arguing that since buffalo have been killed with spears, there is no difference between hunting buffalo with a spear and hunting them with a 600 NE?