George,

You base your statements on first hand experience? How many WILD bison and cape buffalo have you been around? I mean besides the pet bison you shot and what is it one cape buffalo you emtied $20 worth of ammo into ( I think you can still get 375 H&H ammo for $40 / 20).

I would love to hunt the big bears of Alaska with you. We would have to get in close though ie no far off shots. Oh yeah, I want to be in a safety cage when you start shooting that bear of your's in the gut, ass and every other none fatal area.

[ 08-07-2002, 02:21: Message edited by: Todd E ]

500grains,

The methods of hunting between a rifle and a spear are both similar and different. The spear requires you to get more up close and personal with your game (in this case, buff on the hoof) than most hunters would like. The outcome expected was to be the same: dead buff, hunter alive and having bragging rights.

George,

the "state of the art" tools then for hunting bison (black powder, low pressure and muzzle velocity, limited range) puts the hunter's "long range" then at an effective 100-150 yards, max. That's not too terribly further from the max. shooting distance I'd find for any brush hunting, regardless of what I'm hunting. "Long distance" shooting with cast bullets, low velocity and black powder? I am a bit skeptical to think that those older big bore cartridges, loaded with the proper bullet with smokeless powder at velocities far exceeding their black powder ancestors, couldn't do what the "recommended" big bores do for buff hunting.

Word has it that some Cape buff territory is so thick you can't see 10 yds in front of you. Kodiak bear in Alaska is every bit as dangerous as the Cape buff, yet big bore lever actions function fine in the thick forests and woods there, even at that range...at that close distance, there aren't too many modern big bores out there that couldn't do the job, properly loaded. The big question is: what are you comfortable with? And can you use it when it's your life, or the prey's?

TXLoader

TXLoader,
With all due respect sir, comparing Bison to Cape buffalo is the old Apples to Oranges saw!

Here is a quote for a professional buffalo hunter of the era-
The thing we had to have, we businessmen with rifles, was one shot kills. We based our success on... the overwhelming stupidity of the buffalo, unquestionably the stupidest game animal in the world... If you wounded the leader... the rest of her herd, whether it was three or thirty, would gather around her and stupidly "mill" ... All you had to do... was pick them off one by one... I once took 269 hides with 300 cartridges. Adventurous? No more than shooting a beef critter in the barnyard... It was a harvest. We were the harvesters.
Frank H. Mayer
I would hardly attribute that description to hunting Cape Buffalo that will hunt you!
Robert Ruark said that Cape Buffalo look at you like you owe them money.

Do Bison look at you like they need to be milked?

Another quote-
The most commonly thought of was the Sharps Buffalo gun or "Old Reliable". However the Sharps was not the only rifle used. There were Remington rolling block rifles, government Springfield Trapdoor rifles, Henrys, Spencers, Winchesters and several others. The most used rifles were the heavy single shot weapons that were chambered for calibers such as the .44-77, .44-90, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .50-70, .50-90 and a few others. The repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencers and Winchesters were not well liked by the hide hunter that was serious about his business. The repeaters just were not powerful enough to
take a 2,000 pound buffalo down with a single shot.

I think you will find that the falling block Sharpe's and their ilk are stronger action than the lever action!

The 45/70 by no means was the preferred round of the professional buffalo hunter.

Once again let me be clear on my opinion of the Marlin Lever Action in 45/70. It is a well made rifle. Within limitations, it is capable of killing most any game on the face of the earth!

The biggest limitation of the 45/70 is enough velocity to overcome it's poor penetration. To get to that velocity you need to load it up to brutal recoil levels in a strong bolt action rifle. Then, you approach the 458 Win Mag, an honest to God Dangerous Game round!

Within it's range limitation the Marlin Lever Action 45/70 should be a heck of a plains game rifle. It is not a Dangerous Game Rifle!

Todd E:
Are you the same guy that misrepresented himself in previous threads?
web page

Rusty Knight

Can't comment on it's effectiveness as a dangerous game rifle, but, .........using Rays figures.
I went to the range, with my custom 1886. In 45-70.
The load was a hard cast 340 grain.
The chronograph said 2317fps. Now my 1886 is not normal and is much stronger than most older '86s. But the load I used to achieve this should be usable in for example the guide gun, or the NEW 1886s.
The recoil is respectable, but not sharp in my 15lb 1886. I kind of roll with it. It pains just to think of what it would feel like in a 7lb gun.
Yes I would use it, and in my opinion (having no experience at all) it would work. But I would work up a load for a heavier bullet, and pass on long shots. There were no pressure signs.

Rusty,
You are comparing apples to oranges as well. The modern leverguns are stronger but even if they are not stronger, they are loaded to higher pressures and velocities than the old buffalo loads. You have to forget about the anemic old trap door load when you think about the 45/70.

The modern loadings are way above SAMMI spec of 28k psi and thus the 45/70 loads mentioned in connection with African DG are really more like a wildcat cartridge based on the 45/70 case.

Todd E,

Go screw yourself. Twice. I thought you were leaving this site, never to return.

I wouldn't hunt for a parking space with a lying scumbag like you, let alone brown bear (something else you've probably fantasized about then claimed to have actually done).

I repeat: go screw yourself, you lying scumbag.

TXLoader,

100-150yds. is a lot farther than the distances at which most Cape buffalo are shot (10-50yds.). Also, it's rare that other Cape buffalo would stand around and graze while someone shot at their fellow herd members, whereas this was common behavior amongst the bison, according to the men who shot them.

Rusty,
It makes sense that the Sharps is capable of handling much more powerful (high-pressure) rounds than the Marlin lever-action. Just because they didn't have cartridges like the .375 or .416 doesn't mean the Sharps couldn't handle them. Are there any 'ratings' for this action?

George

[ 08-07-2002, 05:30: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

GeorgeS,
It is irrevelant what the sharps buffalo rifle was/is capable of handling what is relevant is what level the ammo of the day was loaded to. The modern 45/70 is loaded to a significantly higher pressure and velocity.

The old buffalo rifles were not as strong as the modern lever rifles due to the ancient steel they were manufactured from.

jnc91,

TXLoader claimed that the falling blocks were weaker than the lever-actions.

Is a Sharps made in 2002 stronger or weaker than a Marlin .45-70 made in 2002?

George
P.S. To all my fellow forum members (except for Todd E), I apologize for my language, but I felt I had to express myself in terms he could understand.

[ 08-07-2002, 04:08: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

John Y Cannuck,

I am very curious as to the load you used to achieve 2317 FPS with a 340 grain bullet. Did you chronograph this load? What type Chrono do you have? Were there any signs of pressure problems?

My data shows this load, if realistic, to be at or above the mystical 3903 ft/lbs required in Zim.

Please double check your data and let us know. I will not hold you liable for any load data you supply to me. Address the thread directly to me for this load data.

Thanks,
Roger QSL

GeorgeS,
You are correct. A sharps made in 2002 such as the beautiful Shiloh Sharps for example is brute strong comprable to a ruger no1 in strength. To bad they're so darn expensive. I was comparing a modern 45/70 to an 1880's vintage Sharps rifle and I believe TxLoader was doing the same but I could be mistaken.

My point is that the only similarity that the modern 45/70 shares with the buffalo rifles of old is the bore size and a common set of case dimensions perfromance way different and the old 45/70 wasn't too shabby in its own right.

Jeff

George,

How long have you had the "L" on your forehead? I take it from you highly intelligent last post to me, that your answer to my questions was YES! I thought as much. You are a pathetic little piss ant of a foul mouthed punk!

Rusty,

Now that you have researched the killing of American bison, I suggest you exercise that brain of yours and read up on all the weapons used on the African buffalo in the latter part of the 19th century. I think you will find that the weapons are of nearly equivalent power to those used to take American bison.

To all you guys who continue on with this idiotic arguement. The modern big bore lever guns can kill a buffalo. Hell a AKM can kill buffalo. Nobody is saying YOU have to hunt with a lever gun so why do you not just drop this subject and move on. To do anything other that drop this just proves, that you to are an ignorant ass like George S.

[ 08-07-2002, 06:47: Message edited by: Todd E ]

You know Todd, if just about anyone else called me a loser, I'd care. But since it comes from a lying scumbag like you (which are you tonight, Tood, the other guy, an LEO, an engineer, or what?), I couldn't care less.

You've been shown to be a liar about who you are, what you do, and what you've hunted. So nothing you say has any weight whatsoever.

Why don't you just bugger off, like you said you would weeks ago?

George

[ 08-07-2002, 07:26: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

QSL
check your pivate messages

The only reason the falling block/rolling block was "weaker" was not because of the design...Ruger has produced rifles with that design that are much more sound and reliable than some bolt actions today.

The fault was in the steel quality and machining equipment of the day. Steel was far more weaker than today's common steels for gunmaking, and machining was by hand using much looser tolerances than used by today's lathes and milling machines. The Sharp's of yesteryears are no match for the sturdiness of modern replicas made with today's steels and machining equipment. There's just no comparison.

Also, let's use a bit of sense here with respect to range. The bison hunter's max range of ~100-150 yds doesn't mean the hunters always shot from that range. What is true today was true then: max range of a rifle does not equate to the shooter being able to shoot accurately at that range. Most black powder shots were much closer - to guarantee penetration to the vitals on a thick-haired, heavy-boned animal, as well as just making sure the shooter hit the target intended. That would put the real shooting distance around...10-50 yds...about that which has been said is used for Cape buff today.

It is also a fact that many Cape buffalo hunts aren't one-shot kills. That using the recommended double and bolt action rifles. I'd likely think most aren't. I don't think most of the old bison hunts were one-shot kills, either...but we've no way of going back in time to verify that in person. The line stating that 296 bison hides were taken with 300 shots may well be as much as an exageration as fact...the 1800's hunters never exagerated their feats, now, did they?

Again, I will say it comes back to what you are comfortable with on the hunt and your ability to make a stand without having to empty your pants afterwards.

I read much about the buff's hunting the hunter in revenge for making a shot on their own. I don't hear too many here affirming the fact the Kodiak bear of Alaska will hunt you down just for straying into its comfort zone - and they are hunters by nature, not chargers like the buff. Yet no one looks down upon the lever action used for the Kodiak bear - which can get just as adrenalin pumped as tha Cape buff, and take as many shots to put down when aroused.

Operated by a hunter comfortable and capable with it, the lever action is just as capable and functional for hunting Cape buff as the bolt action design. It's not the rifle or it's action that slays the animal - it's the properly placed bullet. A well-placed solid, heavy 0.458 bullet will kill a Cape buff or Kodiak bear- the fact it came out of a 458 Win Mag bolt action or a 45/70 lever action is a moot point to the dead buff or the dead bear. If memory serves me right, a max loaded 45/70 in lever action isn't too terribly far behind the 458 Win Mag, in terms of muzzle velocity and energy. The difference, if I recall correctly, is about the same as that between a 280 Remington and a 7mm Rem Mag. If a hunter can take the brutal recoil of the 45/70 loaded to full strength - let him!

Lever actions have taken, and will continue to take, Cape buffalo in Africa (as well as other dangerous game). The only reasons to look down upon the lever action come from prejudice and the historical scarcity of lever action hunters going to Africa. Today, more lever action users are making the trip - and succeeding in their hunts.

It's been said that many "lesser" guns will work with the right shot placement...but isn't that the name of the game in the first place?

I wouldn't recommend using a 7mm Mauser against an elephant...but anyone connected to Africa hunting knows of a character named Bell who was quite comfortable using one - to great success. He was an excellent shot and knew just where to place the bullet. Other hunters tried to repeat his feats - with great failure. Not because the rifle wasn't capable (Bell had already proven that) - the hunters weren't.

Likewise...in the proficient hands of a hunter waiting for the shot to present itself, many large bore lever actions are more than enough medicine for any animal on this planet. Including the Cape buff.

TXLoader

TXLoader,
You need to do a bit of research on several books written on buffalo hunting. "Getting a Stand" by Miles Gilbert and others. They did in fact use long range falling block rifles shooting at 200 yards and better.

Any falling block/rolling block rifle of any era was and is superior to any lever action rifle of that era.

Sure you can kill a buff with a lever action 45/70. Why would you care to use such an underpowered round that lacks the velocity to over come the poor bullet design of the .458 bullet the 45/70 uses.

I guess I keep missing all those happy clients posing with their Cape Buffalo and their Marlins?
I've seen 4 pictures I think 3 of them on a bullet manufactures site? I look forward to seeing the rush to Africa to prove the Marlin is a DGR. Please be sure and post your pictures when y'all get back.

I guess I missed those new "Safari Grade" Marlin Lever actions?

Keep on ranting! Still just a Dead Horse!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 08-07-2002, 19:55: Message edited by: Rusty ]

I don't have any intention of restricting myself to 19th century rifles and/or cartridges for cape buffalo hunting, and "magic bullets" be damned.

I've hunted North American bison as well as cape buffalo, and any comparison between the two animals is absolutely ludicrous and demonstrates a lack of experience and judgement. Mature NA bison bulls are huge, and people HAVE been killed by them (people have been killed by Jersey cows, too!), but they are NOT hard to kill in their tracks with a reasonable caliber, they are NOT anywhere near as tough (physically or mentally) as cape buffalo, they are NOT as cunning, they are NOT as vindictive, they will NOT run into the scrub to lay in ambush for the hunter, and in a nutshell - except for size and agility - they simply don't come equipped with the same sort of "tools" that make cape bufflo such a dangerous proposition to hunt.

It's funny, but there's a whole cadre of experienced hunters who think that the .458 Winchester is a marginal proposition for thick-skinned dangerous game (I've used it for same, and I agree), yet somehow a Marlin lever gun in .45-70, when fed some sort of magic cast bullet is all anyone will ever need........

Bullshit!

AD

Allen

Your post is SPOT ON!!!

It may be fun and interesting to use 45-70 on a Cape Buff. but to think that they are the same as a Bison is a ludicrous statement made in the uptmost ignorance by complete imbeciles who have probably never seen either of them in person.

That's my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

Rusty,

quote:

---

TXLoader,
You need to do a bit of research on several books written on buffalo hunting. "Getting a Stand" by Miles Gilbert and others. They did in fact use long range falling block rifles shooting at 200 yards and better.

---

Will gladly do the reading. I do know that history records the mass slaughter of the bison, not for real hunting reasons, but to deprive Indians of their food and clothing resources. But shooting at 200 yds from railroad cars is not exactly comparative to hunting close up on foot.

quote:

---

Any falling block/rolling block rifle of any era was and is superior to any lever action rifle of that era.

---

Never said otherwise. What I did say is that modern lever-actions made with today's steel and machining equipment are stronger than the old falling blocks made from inferior steel 120 yrs ago.

quote:

---

Sure you can kill a buff with a lever action 45/70. Why would you care to use such an underpowered round that lacks the velocity to over come the poor bullet design of the .458 bullet the 45/70 uses.

---

Now, you're getting to the real reasons of why one prefers double rifles, bolt action, lever action, etc.: preference based upon the safety margins one wants when hunting. Yes, the lever action 45/70 will shoot at a lower velocity. Will a hard cast lead bullet (comparable in size and weight to a solid that could be loaded in the 458 WM) penetrate enough bone and muscle to reach the vitals, at that velocity/energy at the closeness of range as previously stated? Yes, it will.

Will it take down a Cape buff? By your own admission, yes.

So why do we make remarks that the rifle's action is unfit for dangerous game hunting?

To answer your question of why hunt "with an underpowered cartridge"...why hunt with a gun at all? Why not with archery, or a spear? Those are just as deadly to the cape buff...Why? Because most dangerous game hunters are not comfortable doing it...aside from the fact natives were doing it for thousands of years before rifles showed up.

quote:

---

I guess I keep missing all those happy clients posing with their Cape Buffalo and their Marlins?
I've seen 4 pictures I think 3 of them on a bullet manufactures site? I look forward to seeing the rush to Africa to prove the Marlin is a DGR. Please be sure and post your pictures when y'all get back.

---

and I guess all those natives using arrows and spears for scores of centuries didn't know they weren't true dangerous game hunters, going after lion, rhino, elephant, cape buffalo, and such armed with such puny weopons, seeing how they didn't have the wonderful 600 Nitro Express, the 458 Win Mag, or the 577 Tyrannosaur to wield. Given only these weopons of the bush, how many of the African big game hunters here would pursue their dangerous game? But give them the good ol'Big Bore Shoulder-busting Magnum or Express, and suddenly they're brave enough to after these species? And with a PH for back-up? When many African tribes had their test of manhood by going one-on-one with the same animals, no back-up?

Please...the ridicule can flow both ways. I'll stand by statement that rifle action is a personal preference. What matters the most is putting the bullet in a lethal spot - on the first shot. If the first shot fails, and the hunter is charged (whether by bear or buff, it's still the hunter or the prey - one lives, the other dies), then it is the hunter's (or PH's)ability to remain cool-headed under the pressure, responding, working the weopon he/she has confidence in, and getting the next shot(s) off on target, that will determine the confrontation's outcome.

Anything else is pure personal preference.

TXLoader

I have a question for the guys who advocate 19th century cartridges designed for people shooting for dangerous game hunting:

Do you drive a horse and buggy to work instead of an automobile because horses and buggies worked 2 centuries ago so they should still work today?

TxLoader,

If I have ridiculed you any manner I apologize!

If I have ridiculed the Marlin Lever Action 45/70, as a great dangerous game rifle, well that's too bad!

If you will read "Getting a Stand" you will see what that phrase means. If you research you will see that the professional buffalo hunter did indeed shoot the animals from a distance to not startle them and to be able to kill as many as possible. It did him no good to chase after the animals. It was more efficient to engage the target from downwind at long ranges with heavy bullets. It was just a business, not sport. The majority of the buffalo were not slaughtered from railcars with repeating rifles!

As for hunting Cape Buffalo,
why would one want to put themselves at a greater risk using a slower velocity bullet? Slower velocity translates into poorer penetration where the 45/70 is concerned!

Spears and arrows? I guess we are back to the apples and oranges again? Just because you could doesn't mean you should!

You are absolutely correct in your statement of actions being a personal choice! I agree wholeheartedly! If you don't use what you have confidence in, then you are poorly armed indeed. However it takes whole bunch of confidence to overcome poor penetration! Bullet placement is paramount! Why not use a rifle/round better suited to the task of hunting dangerous game!

If you are hunting plains game, elk, ram, ham, Spam, beef buck, bison, or bear you will be well armed with your 45/70 Marlin Lever Action Rifle. Have at it, after all it is your choice!

Just don't expect me to accept your idea of a Marlin Lever Action in 45/70 as Dangerous Game Rifle that I would use! It never has been. It never will be! Just my opine!

If you get down this way give me a shout, drop me an email! Be glad to buy you a drink and chat!

Rusty,

Absolutely NO offense taken from you (or any other poster) on this forum!

We are in perfect agreement concerning the use of cartridge suitable for the task. I would in no way advocate the Marlin 45/70 as a must for YOU (or anyone else) to use...but if that's what someone WANTED to go hunt Cape Buffalo with, with heavy loaded rounds, then by all means he should be able to without being told it's "unfit" for the job.

That's the point I've been trying to get across...

If I WANTED to hunt down the ol' M'Bogo with an old style Masai spear..that would be my preference. That said, I'd best know how to tango with M'Bogo on REALLL personal terms with that spear in hand...and I think you and several others would quitely be affirming with my sweetie that my insurance was paid up and estate papers filed and signed properly...

Thanks for the reference to the book on buffalo...err, bison hunting!

500grs,

I'll go you a bit further...I don't take horse and buggy to work (though, if I had one, it might be a nice head-turner to use it!). I very often use a mode of transportation that predates the ol' horse and buggy...good ol' feet!

It's only a mile from work to home, and I often use that mile as my daily exercise to and/or from work. Even when it's 100+ with the South Texas humidity...in symbolism argument, that'd be like talking about hunting Cape buff with spears...

I don't believe I advocated the use of the 19th century cartridges...I believe I said that if one was comfortable using one, that's their preference, and the kind of action used in the rifle had little to do with the actual bringing down the animal...that's the function of the properly placed bullet.

From what I've observed and read, mechanical failure is not to blame for many jammed rifles - it's the pannicked/carelesss shooter trying to work the action too fast, instead of keeping their cool and working it carefully and confidently, or the careless hunter who uses poorly prepared cartridges that won't feed properly or generate too much pressure, causing the bolt/action to freeze up and making the second shot an impossibility.

Careful preparation + practice, practice, practice + knowing your abilities honestly + confidence in your weopon skills + being familiar your targetted games' habits, temperaments and anatomy + matching your skills and weopon choice to your intended game + the well-placed lethal strike = one very successful hunt. Drop anything from that, you'll be one very unfortunate hunter.

No matter what game you're hunting

I think we can all agree on that, can't we?

TXLoader

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 07:03: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

I suspect, reading the above posts, that my ignorance of African game, is at least equalled by those that have little idea what a 45-70 is capable of with a hard cast bullet, a stout load and a strong lever gun. To say that all lever guns are equal, would be folly in the extreem. To say they are the best choice for dangerous game would also not be true. But to state that they can't do it? I don't buy it.
Send me the $ I'll be glad to come over and show you!

Professional Hunter & Outfitter Rob Duffield

<http://www.safariguides.co.za/photos/myfoto.jpg>

I started hunting when I was 12 years old. As a kid I spent most of my time in the bush tracking and identifying wild animals both in Swaziland and Zululand(now known as KwaZulu Natal). I have hunted for some excellent outfitters through the years and through this I believe that I have gained the experience and knowledge to offer you the safari of your dreams.

I am licensed in the Republic of South Africa in the following provinces :- KwaZulu Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Province, North West Province, Northern Cape and Eastern Cape. I am also licensed to hunt in Mozambique and I hunt in Zimbabwe.

Should you wish to vary your adventures here in Southern Africa, I also offer deep sea game fishing, scuba diving on the beautiful prestine coral reefs of the South African Indian ocean coastline. Having started angling when I was still at high school I now have over 30 years experience.

I belong to PHASA and SCI Africa and a local hunters and conservation association called Zingela Hunting and Conservation Association.

I believe hunting should be conducted in a method of fair chase and that means that the animals should be put under as little stress as possible. Preferably the hunt should be conducted on foot, but should the client not be able to due to age, handicap and or fitness, then one could try other methods.

My favourite animals to hunt are Cape Buffalo, Nyala, Red Duiker/Suni. Although I must admit that I like hunting all species as they all have their own behavioral patterns that test our skills at fair chase hunting. I have been a gun nut ever since I can remember and started reloading when I was 16 years old. I reload calibers from the 22 Hornet right up to the 600 NE including hundgun calibers. My favourite rifle is my Marlin 1895SS in 45-70 Gov. I must admit though that I really favour my .375 H&H Mag as my backup rifle for dangerous game.

Absolutley amazing! What is it with you guys? A modern lever action rifle with state of the art cartridges can and has taken just about everything Africa has to offer! Pres. Roosevelt used "old" lever rifles and "old" cartridges in his time "along with other rifle actions" on his hunts in Africa with great success.
If you have and are proficient and like to use your 470's or 500's then have at it!
For me it is a different road. I read the books and did the research and have made enought trips to Africa to complete the big six (Elephant, Rhino,Cape Buffalo, Hippo, Leopard,and Lion) and to have harvested many wonderful plains game animals along the way. I chose to use a modern Marlin rifle loaded with modern high performance cartridges in either 420gr (for Leopard, Lion and thin skinned animals thru Eland and Kudu) or 540gr cartridges for the truly big critters. I have spent considerable time, money, and effort to ensure that I can place my shots where I aim, and in a manner that is most effective. A charging Cape Buffalo or a charging Hippo can kill you just as dead as a charging Leopard or Lion. The idea for me has always been to have enough respect for the animal I am pursuing to take it in what I believe to be my most advantagous methode. I do not use a 50BMG round, which by some writing to this thread may seem "underpowered" but have chosen to use a modern state of the art 45-70 cartridge. The combination has served me extremly well and I intend to continue to use it to what I believe is to its/my best advantage. So my 458, 416Rigby, 375Super Mashburn no longer get the exercise they once did.
My Marlin and 45-70 cartridges will be with me on my next African safari and I will use it to take, among many other wonderous African animals, a Cape Buffalo or two. By the way, I would love to win the AR Buffalo hunt raffle and have already bought my tickets.
To make a long story short, I have been there and I have done it and I will in deed do it again. Once to Africa means you MUST go back!
Vince

John Y Cannuck,

quote:

---

To say that all lever guns are equal, would be folly in the extreme. To say they are the best choice for dangerous game would also not be true. But to state that they can't do it? I don't buy it.

---

As I posted above, I'm quite new at hunting, and have no African experience at all. But when I was reading the previous pages, where the prevailing attitude seems to be "if it isn't bolt or double, leave it home", I had to say otherwise. There are both lever actions and falling blocks made today that are equal to the task of being able to take down dangerous game. The only question is, "Is the hunter comfortable and proficient with that choice?".

I may be new at this, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I'm not ignorant of the sciences of physics and ballistics. A solid, hardened metal bullet of 500+ grs moving 1700 fps (or faster) is more than enough medicine to cause lethal damage to the heart/lung area of any land animal on this planet. Period. It doesn't matter to the animal what that bullet was launched from, because it's still dead.

You said in short terms what my position is. I wish I had thought of those concise words to use.

From the tenor of this thread, it seems a good many African hunters choose to rely on what has been demonstrated as tried and true for the task. That's a sound way to hunt. Yet I also must disagree when it is said those are the ONLY ones fit for the task.

TXLoader

Could somebody tell me what the "strongest" lever action is, "off the shelf" so to speak? I always thought it was the Browning BLR due to the camming action, but admit this is probably just an impression gained from Brownings own advertising!

Secondly can anybody tell me the ballistics for the old .405Win. I am interested in how it performed balistically "way back then" , and what its potential is in a modern lever action today....

Many thanks,

Peter

The Browning would be high on the list for strength in a non-traditional lever. It's basically a bolt, front locking and all. But why did they go to an aluminum receiver? Richard Lee got relatives working there?
Also, it's not chambered for, and I doubt it's big enough to be chambered for, at least in std length, any of the dangerous game cartridges. (What's a dangerous game cartridge?)

[ 08-08-2002, 20:26: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ]

Yes, for sheer strength in a lever action the BLR gets the nod. You could probably chamber a BLR for a 458 Win MAg, maybe even a LOTT, she'd be a real kicker though (hmmmm). As to the 405 Win, generally a 300 gr bullet at 2200 fps. I don't know the energy figures off hand, and I'm too tired/slow for the math. - Dan

Dan,
Your idea intrigued me, so I gave Browning a phone call. I asked them about the possiblity of converting one of the Long Action BLR to 458 Win Mag and Lott. I asked if the barrel could be rechambered or replaced. Here is what the technician told me.

They very rarely pull the barrel on a BLR.
Because the reciever is a non-ferris metal it is attached at the manufacturing level. The only steel is at the bolt/barrel lug lockup!

If they get a damaged rifle in, they will replace the barrel action and put your old parts in the new stripped barreled action.

They doubted that the non-ferris reciever would withstand the 458 rounds. I guess we need a custom steel receiver. Quite a project rifle!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Thanks for the info guys,

I was under the impression the older BLR's were steel and it was only the new light weight rifles which were some sort of alloy???

Anyway, I was thinking that a .405 in a modern action could be driven so a 400 grain bullet hit 2300/2400fps and if that is not feasable, how about a .458 Win or Lott necked down to a 40 or 416 calibre???

As for Teddy Roosevelt, I have a feeling that he was a bad advert for the .405 and it was his shooting/hunting skills rather than the round that was the problem.

If you read any of Kennith Andersons books he used a lever action Winchester in .405 for many years and accounted for many man eating tigers and leopards and a lesser number of Indian elephants.
From his accounts, as always, it shows that at the end of the day its the person behind the rifle that really matters.

Pete E
The older BLRs are steel, my wife has one. Only the "lightning" versions are aluminum, far as I know.

Rusty,

If the 45-70 is as good as the 458 win, then why have most PH's upgragded from the 458 win to the 458 Lott rather than downgrading to the 45-70?

/

Suluuq,

IF and when you hunt Cape buffalo, you'll want to do the job yourself, and not rely on the PH to help put the beast down.

You won't want to stand off in the distance while the buffalo bleeds to death; you'll want to finish the fight QUICKLY. That will require putting bullets into the animal, regardless of the angle presented.

In order to penetrate to the vitals from ANY angle, you'll need a round that generates enough velocity to drive a bullet all the way through the animal lengthwise, if necessary.

When you made a claim that PHs were switching to the .45-70, I told you that one or two PHs did not reflect a trend, merely an aberration. Using one or two exceptions does not buttress your argument to the point where others will 'accept it on faith'.

To this point in time, we only know of two PHs who claim to use a .45-70 as his backup rifle (and one of them admits to preferring his .375 in tight situations).

Contrast this with the hundreds of PHs who don't.

George