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| One of Us |
Sorry. Didn’t mean to post this again. I was correcting my spelling of Buffalo bill to Buffalo bull…. | |||
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Been there, done that. Great outcome. I find this typically tiring ongoing AR discussion interesting looking back on our 2012 hunt. We had a booking agent, he worked for a larger outfit. That outfit, not the booking agent, wanted long contracts with guarantees from both us and Mr. Baldry that held the company free from responsibility for anything, which no party involved other than the booking company wanted. I ended up firing that company, kept in touch with the booking agent, but dealt all finances directly with Mr. Baldry. I paid the booking agent his 15% directly and the original booking company got nothing. I doubt anyone reading this post questions how that safari turned out. If you aren't familiar with the hunt the link is in my signature line below. I know no details of the arrangement discussed in this thread. But MJ"s statement about trusting someone with your life savings prompted this post. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Accurate Reloading has many knowledgeable and experienced hunters when it comes to hunting in Africa. How many AR members know Ibrahim Nkonde with Impanga Safaris? How many members know him or his reputation well enough to send him $60-80k as a deposit on a hunt? Probably not many, if any of us without the expressed and implied recommendation of a known entity who is respected within the hunting industry and Zambia. Would CME have sent money to a relatively unknown entity like Impanga without Andrew selling the hunt and telling him to deposit the money with Impanga? CME asks about a hunt on Africa Hunting. According to the posts in this thread, Andrew evidently responds through an unsolicited pm to CME and/or others, which is against the rules on Africa Hunting. Andrew is evidently banned on Africa Hunting for this behavior and comes back to AR to complain. https://forums.accuratereloadi...1411043/m/7961089172 CME is deciding between multiple options and goes with Andrew. Evidently two revisions to the contract were made including the final one which evidently according to Roland Norton, the President of PHAZ was fraudulent since Impanga did not have authority to hunt Chanjuzi. The Zambian hunting community is fairly small. Every outfitter and PH in Zambia that is paying attention, knows what areas are under contract at any time. Why didn't Andrew or Ibrahim tell CME that this was contingent upon government approval of Chanjuzi to the outfitter. Why didn't Ibrahim or Andrew let CME know this prior to a month before wheels up. Especially since both Andrew and Ibrahim knew the medical issues with CME's father. Andrew states on this thread that he knew nothing about CME's father's medical condition. Perhaps Andrew forgot. When CME calls Andrew out as a liar, Andrew comes back and says he was made aware of the situation since he knew CME could provide What's App screen shots if needed. CME says he has been asking for his money back since June so he can book another hunt with his father this year while his father still has the physical ability to go to Africa on a hunt. Andrew says there are two sides to a story and the lion hunt was to be pushed back till next year. Kyponter states that he has seen the written requests by CME to Ibrahim and Andrew. Evidently Kyponter is involved because he recommended Andrew to CME and feels responsible that CME has not had his monies returned to him three months after the initial request. The problem is Andrew knows that CME has been asking for his money since June and can provide the What's App screen shots. Andrew states he is trying to sell the lion hunt for next year so they can compensate CME with the new deposits.?.? Evidently Andrew and Ibrahim make sure other hunters affected are relocated to other hunts or get refunds. $100,000 per Andrew. If Ibrahim has slipped his hand in the cookie jar and spent client deposits, why doesn't he distribute what he has in some form of equitable distribution. Why are some clients favored over CME. Are they repeat clients or do they speak with a larger megaphone on AR or AH and may cause larger problems. It makes a person wonder. Andrew states that he is still paying off deposits from Royal Kafue as he gets funds. It is good that Andrew is honest and working to pay his debts off. But, this is part of the problem with the hunting industry. Outfitters tend to use deposits as their piggy bank instead of setting the funds aside in a trust account and transferring them to the operating account when services are rendered. It sounds like Ibrahim has the same problem. If anybody is selling a hunt for an outfitter, at a minimum they should make sure the deposit goes into a trust account and not let it go into the outfitters operating account. If the outfitter won't put funds in a trust account, then no one should sell a hunt for that outfitter without being jointly and severally liable for the funds. Many AR and AH members have hunted with Andrew and have had great hunts and stand loyally behind him. Andrew obviously does many things right. I have not met Andrew and have no axe to grind with him. I have even stood up for Andrew before on AH. See post #9 in the attached thread from AH six months ago. I feel for everyone trying to make an honest living in Africa. My family has lived through having assets taken and nationalized during "Ujamaa" with no compensation. My empathy knows few bounds. https://www.africahunting.com/....74032/#post-1034566 The Zambia government certainly is at fault for not being able to get their act together. Impanga Safari's and Ibrahim are definitely at fault for selling a hunt they evidently did not have the authority to sell and not communicating the possible ramifications with the client, then spending the monies and not being able to refund the client. Andrew may not have the legal liability Ibrahim has but he certainly has the ethical and moral responsibility for selling a hunt and allowing the funds to be put in an account where they can disappear and not be paid back. CME and his Father are the victims. I hope CME's money is returned this week. My thoughts and prayers especially go out to CME's father. Hopefully his health will hold out and he can make it to Africa and shoot that buffalo next year, and have an amazing experience with his son. I generally don't post on threads like this on AR, but CME's Fathers health issues really touched a nerve with me. If Impanga had returned the money to CME in a timely manner, the father and son could have had that hunt of a lifetime already. Prayers! | |||
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Well, this certainly is a shit show, just like the old days. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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This is maybe the most well written and thoughtful post/summary I have seen on here in years…. It is absolutely spot on | |||
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This is the best post on this thread that summarizes the only logical and ethical reality there is. Anyone selling a hunt on here better do everything in their power to back the party who buys that hunt. That might not mean refunding the money since it's not in Andrew's bank account but yes, he should be barging through the front door and demanding that money be returned right this second. Anything less I feel like shows the real integrity of the person sitting on his hands doing next to nothing for the last few months. | |||
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I’m pretty impressed here. Guy comes in and posts about getting screwed by Sam Farrow of Hunt Inter and someone else proceedes to hijack his thread with a completely Unrelated topic of a problem with fair game/Andrew. Well done. Carry on. DRSS Kreighoff 470 NE Valmet 412 30/06 & 9.3x74R | |||
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. I have no dog in this fight and kind of feel sorry for all involved and also that we as hunters are airing our dirty laundry and bitching at each other from the USA to Zambia to the Emirates and elsewhere on a public forum yet again. But as a banker, it makes me wonder if I would pay away a large five figure deposit on a hunt to someone I do not personally know living in a third world country based on a contract that would likely not hold up in any international court and where the whims of a government can change like the weather?! Even if I would trust that person with my life savings.... Maybe such large deposits should go to escrow with established and trusted booking agents for release at or on or after the hunt. After all deposits should not go into own cash flow of concession holders or outfitters until after the hunt concluded ie until after the deposit have been contractually earned. My 2 cents and as I said, shame that so many are pouring oil on this one and making it just plain ugly for all us hunters. Hope that it comes right for all involved and that we all move on. I guess this kid of echos AilsaWheels thread above ........ . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
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Yep, exactly what I posted back on Page 1. Accepting that outfitters and PH's may incur expenses prior to and in readiness for a hunt where a deposit could legitimately be asked for, it seems in a lot of cases there are larger amounts of money being paid for services not yet rendered. Escrow accounts where the total expected cost of a hunt could be deposited at an agreed point in time (under a contract) prior to the hunt would provide surety of funds for all parties involved. Handing over large sums of money to unknown parties in countries rife with political infractions and corruption borders on financial suicide. Shame for all parties involved in both instances debated on this thread. As for airing dirty linen in public as some are unhappy about, everyone knows or should known that sweeping dirty linen under the carpet will always come back to bite you hard. Bring it out in the open and stamp out the practices that cause it. All you guys with the money to hunt Africa are the customers and if you are all united then you have the power to dictate how the industry should operate. If you can't do that then don't complain when others who have no allegiance's to any particular outfitters or PH's proffer opinions on questionable business practices. | |||
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International hunters, including me, do this all the time. The escrow arrangements you and others have described are not standard practice. I have seen them employed only once and very recently, for an international hunt I have booked for next year. But even if such practices were more common, we should all know that any time we put up a deposit for nearly anything, but especially an international hunt, we must consider that our money is at risk. I once wired a five figure deposit to a Cypriot bank account held by a Ukrainian booking agent for a hunt with an outfitter in Kyrgyzstan! Of course, I had done my homework and learned that all parties involved were reliable people (and not thieves or, as far as I could tell, on the verge of insolvency) and decided that the risks involved were risks that I could bear. Not everyone would run such risks, but I did then, and have done since then, in many different but not too dissimilar contexts, all in pursuit of international hunting opportunities. All has worked out well so far. I think it is safe to say that the international hunting community is not composed, as a general matter, of crooks and thieves. Thank God. But we hunters should well know that government whims, personal bankruptcies (including booking agent and outfitter bankruptcies), bank failures, general force majeure events, drinking, drug and marital problems, and even worse, but thankfully quite rarely, outright thievery, are within the realm of possibility and can and sometimes do throw even the best laid plans into turmoil or disaster. I don't know all of the facts in this matter, or who truly knew what when, or how that influenced actions taken or not taken. I do know that if I were the poster here, I would be asking Andrew for help but focusing on the concession owner for a full reimbursement, including but not limited to working through the poster's contacts in PHAZ. And for anyone here to suggest that Andrew should have worked harder or be working harder without knowing what he has done and is doing is more than a little unfair. Suggestions that he is only working on this because of internet pressure or in bad faith are likewise unfair and unfounded. As for Andrew's having been banned on Africa Hunting, that is more a badge of honor than a dishonor. I saw the light there and quit before they could ban me. Anyone who doubts the value of Accurate Reloading to the hunting industry only needs to visit sites like AH where favorable treatment is bought and paid for and free speech does not exist. As for Andrew and the concession owner, as has been said, what is he supposed to do, stop working for a living (which involves prolonged periods hunting in the bush on a 24 hours per day basis), drop everything else in his life and hold a gun to the outfitter's head? Although we have learned that one can get away with murder in Zambia, I'm sure that the authorities would at least frown upon that. But even so the authorities seem unconcerned that their inconsistent and chaotic actions regarding the Zambian government-owned hunting blocks are undermining the Zambian hunting industry. I continue to wish the poster the best in this case (I would be pissed off, too) and continue to have confidence that good people are working in good faith to get him his refund. This government-caused fiasco will not turn out perfectly, as the time is past for that, but there is certainly room for hope that it will turn out satisfactorily. Knowing Andrew, I am sure he is doing what is humanly possible to make sure that happens. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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My take here, first Andrew reached out to the client and sold the hunt at that concession with himself as the PH. Client decided to go with Andrew because of Andrew not because the client knew the concession leaser. So, Andrew has a responsibility there to make sure the client gets his refund as Andrew was involved. Nothing has been done so far according to the client, so I don't know how much effort has been put into getting the client his refund. My biggest issue here is letting the client hang in the wind prior to the scheduled hunt even though it was known that the concession was not viable. One lesson learned here is to never book a hunt with a freelancer that is using quotas from various concessions. Things can go sideways with almost no recourse. Andrew was acting as a booking agent, though the client was signing with the concession leaser directly. Andrew still is responsible because of his role in the process, though maybe not legally. I was actually looking at Zambia for my lion hunt in 2025 after I got my Rigby double, not anymore. | |||
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Andrew IS trying his best to get the clients refund done. I a not sure what sort of leverage he might have though, except the threat of not using that concession in the future. A very sad and unfortunate incident this. Unlike the Sam story. | |||
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. . . wonder if he WAS before Cme got frustrated enough with the delays and runaround in getting his refund that he felt forced to go public with his difficulties. Sad it had to come to that but you can certainly understand Cme’s frustration given how he was treated while simultaneously dealing with his Dad’s health issues. Mike | |||
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I do sympathize with CME. He is caught in a situation he was caught though he would get into. Neither Andrew or the concession owner had any intention of cheating him. They are both victims of a stupid government action. I am assuming Andrew has booked hunts with the concession owner before, many times, and had no problems. Seems the concession owner has refunded some clients money, as he should have. The blame is still in his court for not refunding CME his money, not Andrews. Do you expect Andrew to pay the client back from his pockets? | |||
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I expect Andrew, who after all is the person that marketed and sold the hunt, to be doing enough to get the client a refund that the client does not get to the point of feeling like he is being lied to, stonewalled and given the runaround and his only material recourse is to call out the problem publicly. Mike | |||
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Posted by Michael Robinson
A cyprus Bank and a Ukrainian client and you are telling me that they were not crooks  No legit business banks in Cyprus. Sure there wers SARs and red flags all the way on that one in the payment flow! But good it worked for you. And fyi as an international hunter, like you, I wired my deposit for my Kyrgyzstan hunt in USD to a US bank. And as an international hunter (as you call us), I have also been on hunts where no deposit was called for but it was done on the basis of a handshake (online so to speak). I too like many on here have hunted with Andrew a couple of times and everything went perfectly to plan and I would not hesitate to book with him again. Seems like this mess is the 'perfect hunting storm' that has impacted so many through no fault of their own! And I hope it works out for all involved. . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
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Put yourself in Andrews shoes. What would YOU do, more than what he is doing? Being a lawyer, sue the owner in Zambia? | |||
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Gentlemen I have much evidence that the poster was prepared to postpone the hunt to a later date and was prepared to sit this out. This month is the cut-off date and the Outfitter will refund the money and has suggested a part payment plan which for me is comforting if not ideal. To date, this is the only outstanding debt and I have been assured that payments are forthcoming. Indeed this is a shit show and involves numerous operators who sold safaris having been awarded concessions only to have the initial Tender squashed by the new Government and a re Tender which resulted in the concessions awarded and signed for prior to the latest injunction which has now resulted in Operators suing Government for loss of incomes. I am reliant on what the Operator informs me and I believe in him and always have. This was the best possible venue for such a safari and the poster and we did consider hunting elsewhere and that the money would be transferred to another operator but neither of us was happy with second best and scrapped the idea and we were prepared to sit it out. The month of October was suggested but I advised not and indicated possibly November after the first light rains but a rollover would be preferable. The poster's last messages to me were all deleted with the exception of one congratulating me on a fine Buffalo that I had just taken? As a freelance PH, I do not get involved with monies, commissions or markups and simply introduce the prospective client to the operator of my choice. The contract and deposit arrangements are communicated by those two parties alone For those who suggested I threw Buzz under the bus might want to re visit that thread and might note I have and will always applaud CMS for fine-hunting. The topic divided AR and I simply supported the complainant and that is my choice for better or for worse. I object to being called a liar on a public forum and yes I fucked up when it was pointed out that the poster's Father had a medical condition but when I revisited our correspondence was assured that he was fit enough to entertain a Buff hunt in the Luangwabut but I did not recommend October. I have no excuse for that but if the Operator tells me he has just received bank transfer details what I am to believe? I have no evidence from the poster or the Operator of physical banking details. This season has been a disaster and I am reliant on safari incomes and the loss of big safaris such as this has been somewhat painful. I did my best to reschedule hunts and return deposits as some AR members here have testified. All ended well for the others and they all took excellent trophies. I apologize to all for the inconvenience caused and assure you nothing sinister was played on my part. Sure if I had fucked off to the Bahamas with all client's deposits then there would be some cause for concern. But I have not. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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You seem to have a bee in your bonnet. There is much communication between me and the poster which I could post here but would only encourage a tit-for-tat argument. It was indicated that the second injunction would be squashed and all would return to normal. This has now become a battle between the original Tenderers and the new Government who are playing hardball. The innocents were tragically involved in the last injunction. You indicated in the last shit show that I was to profit from my actions and whilst I appreciate Mr Robinson defending me here he has not to date booked with me? Your accusations seem unwarranted but hey that's AR for you. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Andrew, What excuse the concession owner is giving for not refunding the client’s money in one go? Did he also refund other clients money in installments? | |||
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I will ask him and the others were paid in one installment I think but informed me that they had been sorted ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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He has informed you he has paid them. Did any confirm being paid? Why is it only this client being paid in installments? Would be interesting to know that he had actually paid the others, not just taking his word for it. | |||
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A most interesting, if not frustrating thread that highlights what seems an over-complicated reality to what, in theory, should be a straight-forward process. | |||
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Trust the government to throw a monkey wrench in it! | |||
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Yes everyone apart from the poster has been paid in full including the AR members who posted confirmation here and as Ibi is not on line at the moment I cannot answer the last question and maybe the poster has more details ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I am one of the hunters who had a hunt booked in the Chanjuzi through Impanga Safaris with Andrew as my PH. A contract was sent to me by Ibi with a request for a deposit. I wired the deposit to Ibi. All monies were handled between myself and Ibi. Andrew was not involved. When I was notified of the Luangwa Valley concession fiasco, I was given the option of waiting it out or making new plans. I chose to move my safari to Shiwa Ng'Andu and the Bangweulu Swamps. A contract was sent to my by Shiwa with a request for a deposit. I didn't contact Andrew for help with my money because he did not have it. I contacted Ibi to have my deposit transferred to Shiwa and within a few days, my full deposit (less a small bank transfer fee) was wired to Shiwa. This was my fourth safari with Andrew. My next safari will also be with Andrew and will hopefully include Leopard and Sable. I hope for a quick resolution between CME and Ibi. | |||
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Is anyone by the name of Rasheed Rancine involved? | |||
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Both of these episodes offer lessons to be learned . First , know who you are dealing with . Apparently Sam Farrow is quite notorious. With him being bankrupt, I doubt any recovery will be made . The second exposes issues in the way the safari business works . We take risks every single time we book no matter who we are booking with . If the government pulls the plug , there will be problems. | |||
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Also highlights the potential complications that come from booking through a PH that just buys quota and does not control the hunting areas. It invites finger pointing and blame shifting when the shit hits the fan. Mike | |||
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No… | |||
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I too had originally booked in the Chanjuzi with Impanga Safaris, and Andrew as my PH. I wired my deposit money to Ibi, not Andrew. After the government concession fiasco and Ibi’s concession and the other (18) were not allowed to hunt, Andrew offered to transfer the hunt to Shiwa Ngandu and the Bangweulu Swamp, which was a long time desire of mine, one I coveted more than Chanjuzi actually, so I was delighted in the change of venue. I contacted Ibi and requested that my deposit money be transferred to Shiwa for hunting there, and also the Bangweulu Swamp. The deposit money transfer was made, and I had probably the best safari I have ever experienced, taking the 46” Buffalo, and a superb Black Lechwe, an excellent Tsessebe, and a Side Striped Jackal, filling all of my tags completely. My next safari with Andrew is for Cookson’s Wildebeest & Buffalo (I am addicted to Buffalo hunting…), and hoping for the off chance of taking a Honey Badger some day. | |||
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It is abundantly clear here. Things went south because of the government. Everyone has done everything possible to make it right. Except Ibi. He is dragging his feet. Simple to understand as the fact stand now. | |||
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Your opinion. Cme seems to have different view. A view based on all the facts and circumstances. And based on the limited facts he has shared here, I think he has good reason for his opinion. Your opinion, not so much. Mike | |||
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True. And the last person I would believe in any argument is a lawyer! | |||
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The question must be asked as to when was the last hunt in Chanjuzi? The government had suspended the hunting in 19 blocks due to an investigation into the award of them. There was a lot of nefarious activities going on from certain outfitters. | |||
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Hahaha- So right Saeed. The real dilemma here is, two of the loudest voices in this thread, are both Lawyers. One on each “side”. Internet gold I say!! I’ll just throw my hat in the ring and state - The party who actively pursued the sale, obviously bears some responsibility here. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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I get you don't trust lawyers, however, when in a jam, guess what - "I am calling my lawyer!" Lawyers do help clarify if they are truly trying to get to the truth. This entire thread is a bit fuzzy as to who is responsible. It is easy to blame the Zambian government, they are like most governments. The entire booking process is convoluted with agents requiring guilt free contracts, the safari operators wanting money up front with no real recourse to get it back if things go poorly. I appreciate Andrew's predicament, however, most PH's like to book hunts as it adds to income. However, the risks are there for the hunter. I have done this a few times and am very careful with who I book with and where I go. Most are reputable but they don't have the resources to cover a mess up like this. It is not fair that the PH gets painted with this brush, but the PH made the choice to be a booking agent. Booking agents are a hard working bunch and they provide value, much like travel agents. However, there are limits and you need to prepared for "loss" if it happens. Travel insurance is a good idea for sure. I hope this works out and hope everyone has learned a lesson. | |||
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Ross- So right you are, all points. Let me just add - Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies. The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Travel insurance dealing with a hunt in Africa is a joke. They’re going to deny a claim and dare you to sue them…. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and if you have not lived and done business in Africa south of the Sahara, this would be one pudding you will never have tasted and therefore unable to give a true opinion. | |||
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