Fulvio,
I have lived in Egypt and Kazakhstan, worked in 20 other countries and hunted in 15 - I get it when it comes to dealing with governments.

I have not lived south of the Sahara, but see little difference between any government there and those in Indonesia, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Papua New Guinea and the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ross-

So right you are, all points.

Let me just add -

Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies.

The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft.

Steve, insurance companies are in business to collect premiums not to pay claims. My commercial insurance agant told me that, not sure if he was joking or not.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

It is easy to blame the Zambian government, they are like most governments.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and if you have not lived and done business in Africa south of the Sahara, this would be one pudding you will never have tasted and therefore unable to give a true opinion.

I can assure you that it's not any better North of the Sahara too. In fact, you can be assured of being ripped off. And run when they say "my brother."

Blair Worldwide all over again.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ross-

So right you are, all points.

Let me just add -

Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies.

The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft.

Steve, insurance companies are in business to collect premiums not to pay claims. My commercial insurance agant told me that, not sure if he was joking or not.

He wasn't!! I had a long difficult fight with two insurance companies during Joyce's first cancer. They used each other as the excuse for non-payment and only finally paid in full after I produced 17 pages of documentation covering all the details of every conversation with their representatives that I sent to two state's insurance commissioners, Alaska political delegation, all medical entities awaiting payment, and a local lawyer friend that allowed me to use his address. I included multiple medical journal articles showing how undue stress during a cancer battle contributes to poor outcomes. They finally decided it was more prudent to pay the bills they were responsible for than to risk pain and suffering add ons in the court of law.

I will never forget the phone call from their representative. "Jim, great news, the committee has decided Joyce has suffered enough so we are going to pay".

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ross-

So right you are, all points.

Let me just add -

Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies.

The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft.

Steve, insurance companies are in business to collect premiums not to pay claims. My commercial insurance agant told me that, not sure if he was joking or not.

He wasn't!! I had a long difficult fight with two insurance companies during Joyce's first cancer. They used each other as the excuse for non-payment and only finally paid in full after I produced 17 pages of documentation covering all the details of every conversation with their representatives that I sent to two state's insurance commissioners, Alaska political delegation, all medical entities awaiting payment, and a local lawyer friend that allowed me to use his address. I included multiple medical journal articles showing how undue stress during a cancer battle contributes to poor outcomes. They finally decided it was more prudent to pay the bills they were responsible for than to risk pain and suffering add ons in the court of law.

I will never forget the phone call from their representative. "Jim, great news, the committee has decided Joyce has suffered enough so we are going to pay".

I’m considering going to the convention simply to stand in front of their booth and tell every person who they really are.

[quote]I’m considering going to the convention simply to stand in front of their booth and tell every person who they really are.[/quote
Do not bother. You will not last 5 minutes protesting at a trade show. You will not last 5 minutes before security throws you out the front door. Much more effective to call out thieves on this forum. Who are these two insurance companies that you so despise?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ross-

So right you are, all points.

Let me just add -

Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies.

The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft.

Steve, insurance companies are in business to collect premiums not to pay claims. My commercial insurance agant told me that, not sure if he was joking or not.

He wasn't!! I had a long difficult fight with two insurance companies during Joyce's first cancer. They used each other as the excuse for non-payment and only finally paid in full after I produced 17 pages of documentation covering all the details of every conversation with their representatives that I sent to two state's insurance commissioners, Alaska political delegation, all medical entities awaiting payment, and a local lawyer friend that allowed me to use his address. I included multiple medical journal articles showing how undue stress during a cancer battle contributes to poor outcomes. They finally decided it was more prudent to pay the bills they were responsible for than to risk pain and suffering add ons in the court of law.

I will never forget the phone call from their representative. "Jim, great news, the committee has decided Joyce has suffered enough so we are going to pay".

Jim, I went through the same thing with my first round of chemo. Insurance refused to pay the claim. I submitted paper out the ying yang. They still refused to pay. Finally I called and threatened to sue them. They laughed, said go ahead, we have a whole staff of in-house lawyers. Then I threatened to go to the local newspaper and TV stations with a human interest story about a guy fighting for his life with stage 4 lymphoma who was denied legitimate coverage by Blue Cross. The backpedaling began. Claims were paid the next week. I HATE INSURANCE COMPANIES!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ross-

So right you are, all points.

Let me just add -

Myself and my whole group of Anglers were all denied recovery from one of the “major” and probably most well-known, travel insurance companies.

The Brazilian outfitter, lost privileges on our target fishery. Our group all filed claims, all were denied for legal, small print reasons. Lawyers…travel insurance….pfft.

Steve, insurance companies are in business to collect premiums not to pay claims. My commercial insurance agant told me that, not sure if he was joking or not.

He wasn't!! I had a long difficult fight with two insurance companies during Joyce's first cancer. They used each other as the excuse for non-payment and only finally paid in full after I produced 17 pages of documentation covering all the details of every conversation with their representatives that I sent to two state's insurance commissioners, Alaska political delegation, all medical entities awaiting payment, and a local lawyer friend that allowed me to use his address. I included multiple medical journal articles showing how undue stress during a cancer battle contributes to poor outcomes. They finally decided it was more prudent to pay the bills they were responsible for than to risk pain and suffering add ons in the court of law.

I will never forget the phone call from their representative. "Jim, great news, the committee has decided Joyce has suffered enough so we are going to pay".

Jim, I went through the same thing with my first round of chemo. Insurance refused to pay the claim. I submitted paper out the ying yang. They still refused to pay. Finally I called and threatened to sue them. They laughed, said go ahead, we have a whole staff of in-house lawyers. Then I threatened to go to the local newspaper and TV stations with a human interest story about a guy fighting for his life with stage 4 lymphoma who was denied legitimate coverage by Blue Cross. The backpedaling began. Claims were paid the next week. I HATE INSURANCE COMPANIES!

Yup! I forgot to mention I copied the certified letter with documents to Alaska News Source also. I do think what tipped them over was the documented references to stress and anxiety meds in the chart notes coupled with the journal articles about cancer, stress, and bad outcomes. They knew we’d go for the mega pain and suffering payout if things didn’t work out medically. They weren’t willing to risk it.

After their Rep had the balls or stupidity to announce Joyce had suffered enough on a recorded line I asked her what people not medically savy enough to fight them did she coldly said, “Go bankrupt”

Fucking pricks. Pisses me off to this day and it’s been over ten years.

No payment issues this time. Thank goodness because radiation is some expensive shit.

Now it’s time for the insurance company lawyers here to tell us about how they’re the good guys and are just trying to keep premiums low… And yes, after going through radiation therapy for prostate cancer, I can certainly verify that radiation therapy is expensive.

jdollar and Frostbit,

I'm an insurance company lawyer, but I ain't gonna do what you suggested. I don't represent health insurance companies, at least not anymore. They hide behind ERISA, the Employees Retirement Income Security Act of 1976, which was supposed to protect employees who were provided with insurance through an employer provided plan. What it did in fact, is flip the burden of proof and preempt any bad faith claim against the insurer, eliminating any downside to the insurer for denying a claim. If your coverage is provided through an ERISA plan, and almost everyone's is, you won't be able to recover "bad faith" damages against the insurer. Federally preempted. But more significantly, since federal law applies, the Plan governs and it always gives "discretion" to some committee. With an ordinary insurance policy, if the provisions are ambiguous, the insurance company loses, but with a policy governed by ERISA, you have to prove that the "committee" committed an "abuse of discetion". That is, no reasonably fact finder could agree with them. That's a pretty impossible burden.

And with no "bad faith" there's no threat of extra-contractual damages.

Like I say, I don't represent health insurers anymore. They deal with people's lives.

I proudly represent insurance carriers in both third-party and some first-party litigation in other contexts.

I should add, Nothing in the preceding post constitutes legal advice or establishes an attorney-client relationship. My lawyers insist on that. Thanks, and good luck to everyone pursuing an employer-provided insurance plan.

More insurance BS today.

Bought my wife a Jaguar F-Pace, SVR. Cool car. Has 22” wheels. When we bought it, I got talked into wheel and tire insurance. The tires and wheels are expensive I guess.

Fast forward, wife clobbers a curb, wheel has curb rash, tire is screwed. Put spare on, take it to the dealer. They tell us “if the wheel is repairable, we do that, if not, we replace”.

Just got a call, wheel is not repairable cosmetically but the insurance company is denied replacement. They don’t cover cosmetic damage.

So yet again, I’ve paid for insurance, that won’t payout on a claim. They did replace the tire.

I’m 62. Never filed an auto or homeowners claim. That’s gotta be a battle

SMH

Cosmetic damage exclusions are not uncommon.

Is this Sam Farrow a bad dude?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
jdollar and Frostbit,

I'm an insurance company lawyer, but I ain't gonna do what you suggested. I don't represent health insurance companies, at least not anymore. They hide behind ERISA, the Employees Retirement Income Security Act of 1976, which was supposed to protect employees who were provided with insurance through an employer provided plan. What it did in fact, is flip the burden of proof and preempt any bad faith claim against the insurer, eliminating any downside to the insurer for denying a claim. If your coverage is provided through an ERISA plan, and almost everyone's is, you won't be able to recover "bad faith" damages against the insurer. Federally preempted. But more significantly, since federal law applies, the Plan governs and it always gives "discretion" to some committee. With an ordinary insurance policy, if the provisions are ambiguous, the insurance company loses, but with a policy governed by ERISA, you have to prove that the "committee" committed an "abuse of discetion". That is, no reasonably fact finder could agree with them. That's a pretty impossible burden.

And with no "bad faith" there's no threat of extra-contractual damages.

Like I say, I don't represent health insurers anymore. They deal with people's lives.

I proudly represent insurance carriers in both third-party and some first-party litigation in other contexts.

My Blue Cross policy was an individual plan, paid for by me. At the time of my incident, CA had passed a law limiting pain and suffering damages to a low 6 figure amount. BC didn’t care about a lawsuit but they did care about a boatload of bad publicity. Hence the quick resolution. Pathetic!

What product in the world requires 100% payment up front before delivery or performsnce??!!...other than big hunts?? NONE
WHY?? Is this due to the lack of trust between hunter and outfitter, either that hunter won't show up with little down, or the hunt is not operated successfully and hunter won't pay??
Frankly, on all of my hunts, since 1968, including 19 safaris, I have never paid more than 33% up front, and I took Cashiers checks to pay the balance. On only one Moose hunt in Alberta 4 years ago, about day 5 of 10, I confronted the outfitter on a performance basis, he had overbooked the camp by 50% over agreed, and 4 of 5 Argos were broken down, boats were unsafe, he didn't have legal number of guides and hunters were expected to self guide. He kept my deposit, 33%, I didn't shoot a Moose, my 2 partners shot a meat Moose, paddles the Suze of your hands, the other a big old declining bull with small rack, both first time Moose hunters. Clearly the outfitter was shooting out the concession and going out of the Moose hunting business...this was a fishing camp...
Sadly the hunting business has become a target of opportunity for scammers!! Take you for a ride in the bush, that's hunting!! This really overshadows the really good, hard working outfitters.
Given this situation, I think it is time that ALL INTERNATIONAL HUNTERS put the foot down and demand 25% to 1/3 deposit to book the hunt and the remainder and trophy fees be paid "after delivery" by cash, Cashiers check, or wire transfers. PERIOD.
THIS SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM BETWEEN HONEST AND QUALITY PARTIES!! IT HAS WORKED FOR ME!!
Be careful to report to Customs BEFORE DEPARTURE Cash of more than $10,000

We have always purchased insurance on our expensive cruises. Only had to use it once when I fell and snapped my patellar tendon in Southern India. We were discharged, no negotiation, cruise line paid Biz Class air home as it was an air-sea package and they would have paid from Sydney, our arrival port anyway. Insurance paid prorated fare by days lost, no questions!! I have NEVER had an issue with any medical insurance payments, 100%!!

A good friend had an aneurysm of their first South African hunt. He spent 6 months in the hospital/rehab in Port Elizabeth. Travel Guard paid as per policy both for remaining hunt and medical expenses!!

It is sad that our "sport of Kings" has turned into this!! TIME FOR A CHANGE AND DEMAND FOR REASONABLE AND PROFESSIONAL DEALINGS BETWEEN PARTIES!! We are in the driver's seat. Any all booking agents are 100% either... not the answer!! I have had one or two NOT PAY DEPOSITS TO OUTFITTERS... I doubt banks would be the escrow....I wouldn't trust law firms... WHAT NEXT, a Hunters Escrow serservice??
REALLY??

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does not seem that complex to me. The person advertising and offering the hunt is the person ultimately responsible for making things right. I find this whole outfitter versus concession operator a confusing complexity that just creates a potential for finger pointing, playing the blame game and giving the client the round around. Someone offers and advertises a hunt. What they do and who they deal with to make that hunt happen is their responsibility. And if and when something goes south, it is the responsibility of the person who offered and advertised the hunt to sort it out, not punt the responsibility to the "operator".

Actually, that is not strictly true.

Did the person who sued McDonalds for millions when she spilled hot coffee on herself sue the server or McDonald?

Who actually took the money?

Saeed, it is worse than not strictly true.

It may be the stupidest, most naive drivel ever uttered on this subject.

Astonishing.

Michael

I guess I must be a stupid naive fraud?

If a renowed PH on this site, asked me if I would do a hunt with him. He gets me to transfere what for many is a years income. And then 4 weeks before the hunt tells me that the hunt is off. Because the big risk of the consession being closed that he knew all about, but did not tell me, has just happend. And then does not refund my payment. Then I would get very very angry on him.

Regards
Carl Frederik
Stupid naive and fraudulent

quote:

What product in the world requires 100% payment up front before delivery or performance??!!

Airline and Cruise tickets for sure.

Eddy,
I agree, paying all upfront on a safari seems crazy to me, unless an inexpensive PG hunt.

In North America, it's the standard to be all paid up before the hunt commences, but I haven't gone on really expensive outfitted NA hunts.

In Africa, sometimes I have paid up in cash before leaving camp, plenty of times I have wired funds after getting home. Never had an outfitter bat an eye at that.

I have also had an outfitter mention how much money he was owed from people who came on safari and hadn't paid up months later...

Not sure what the best answer is, but if a HIGHLY REPUTABLE booking agent (Mark Young, Tim Herald at WTA, Jack Atcheson, Jr come to mind) would hold funds in escrow, I'd go for that.

quote:


Regards
Carl Frederik
Stupid naive and fraudulent[/quote]

I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I've only hunted Africa once, but I paid 50% of daily rate up front. The remainder of daily rate, trophy fees, trophy handling, gratuities etc were paid AFTER the completion of hunting. I can't imagine being asked to do it any other way unless the outfitter is operating on a shoestring, which causes a complete loss of trust.
I own a small business and know all too well that many businesses that appear solvent and reputable are actually running "one step ahead of the posse". To pay in full to a third party in a third world country would cause me to have sleepless nights.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

You raise a valid point.

Did the PH receive any payments from the concession owner for this particular hunt?

Payment which already been paid by the client?

Did he refund this payment when the hunt was cancelled?

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I agree with you.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

Sometimes it does get confusing.

Because some of them wear several hats.


In this instance, the way I understand it.

We have the concession owner, who I assume is the outfitter.

We have the professional hunter, we have the client, and of course the government which issues the permits.


Everything was fine, until the government stepped in.

The client had paid for a hunt advertised by the professional hunter for a hunt on the outfitter’s land.

Client paid what he was asked to pay.

Ever was looking forward to a successful business transaction.

And, as usually happens, the politicians, most probably not getting some pay back, or because someone else offered a better deal, stepped in and messed things up.

The client wants his money back.

The outfitter agreed to this, but paying in installments.

Which is not acceptable to the client, and rightly so.

What we don’t know is if he had paid the professional hunter for this hunt.

And if the professional hunter had paid it back.

Everything is relatively clear.

Except why the refund is not paid immediately!

It would be interesting if the above is not correct, someone will give us the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

Karl,

A freelance PH (as I know) is a sort of "nomad" who offers his services to more than one outfitter as opposed to a permanently employed one by one company as is the norm in Tanzania though not necessarily applicable to other countries.

That said, a PH will be remunerated for the number of days he has worked at an established daily rate that normally varies on the type and duration of the hunt e.g. DG or Plains Game and client configuration, e.g. 1x1 or 2x1 etc.
I have never heard of one being paid for his services in advance.

Further to this, some if not most TZ outfitters prefer that a PH provide his own vehicle which is also paid for on a daily hire basis, with fuel being supplied by the outfitter.

The PH is not necessarily entitled to a commission of the booking amount though most outfitters will consider something in the region of 10% as a "finder's fee" in recognition of the effort and the same PH will have the right to guide that hunt for an agreed daily fee.

The PH, freelance or permanently employed does not have claim nor entitled to any other form of remuneration which are related to Trophy Fees, Dip/Pack, etc. etc.

Fulvio,
Thank you for taking time to provide the info. Much appreciated. Hopefully, this situation being brought to the forefront (at least on this site, with many, many hunters) will result in a good resolution.
And, I sure as hell wouldn’t book a hunt with either Mr. Farrow or the concession holder mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does not seem that complex to me. The person advertising and offering the hunt is the person ultimately responsible for making things right. I find this whole outfitter versus concession operator a confusing complexity that just creates a potential for finger pointing, playing the blame game and giving the client the round around. Someone offers and advertises a hunt. What they do and who they deal with to make that hunt happen is their responsibility. And if and when something goes south, it is the responsibility of the person who offered and advertised the hunt to sort it out, not punt the responsibility to the "operator".

Actually, that is not strictly true.

Did the person who sued McDonalds for millions when she spilled hot coffee on herself sue the server or McDonald?

Who actually took the money?

Saeed, it is worse than not strictly true.

It may be the stupidest, most naive drivel ever uttered on this subject.

Astonishing.

Michael

I guess I must be a stupid naive fraud?

If a renowed PH on this site, asked me if I would do a hunt with him. He gets me to transfere what for many is a years income. And then 4 weeks before the hunt tells me that the hunt is off. Because the big risk of the consession being closed that he knew all about, but did not tell me, has just happend. And then does not refund my payment. Then I would get very very angry on him.

Regards
Carl Frederik
Stupid naive and fraudulent

Exactly!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

Sometimes it does get confusing.

Because some of them wear several hats.


In this instance, the way I understand it.

We have the concession owner, who I assume is the outfitter.

We have the professional hunter, we have the client, and of course the government which issues the permits.


Everything was fine, until the government stepped in.

The client had paid for a hunt advertised by the professional hunter for a hunt on the outfitter’s land.

Client paid what he was asked to pay.

Ever was looking forward to a successful business transaction.

And, as usually happens, the politicians, most probably not getting some pay back, or because someone else offered a better deal, stepped in and messed things up.

The client wants his money back.

The outfitter agreed to this, but paying in installments.

Which is not acceptable to the client, and rightly so.

What we don’t know is if he had paid the professional hunter for this hunt.

And if the professional hunter had paid it back.

Everything is relatively clear.

Except why the refund is not paid immediately!

It would be interesting if the above is not correct, someone will give us the facts.

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss

Karl always seems to be the voice of reason.

Once again, this has turned into a shit show. I don’t know Andrew, but he stepped up after Stu took a .458 in the shoulder from Tim by “donating” prints to help the family and Stu. Mark sullivan did as well as Saeed and Larry. That became a shit show.

As I’ve said here before, Andrew would be my pick in Zambia. His circumstances have changed drastically since. We don’t know the arrangements, but I damn sure hope he was getting more than daily rates on a hunt with a $60k deposit.

However, the hunt was never conducted. CME needs and deserves his money refunded. He may have signed a contract, but it was for a concession closed.

Having lost my father in March, that last hunt is special, always. It may not be the “real” hunt, but make it what he’s able to do. I can set you up for water Buffalo in Argentina for your father. My father did it when he couldn’t walk really. It was more of a shoot. I don’t make anything off of it and it can be done as soon as you want to fly there, calendar permitting. In March you can add stag. Shooting birds is also a possibly if you want.

No, this is not brokering anything or trying to make money for myself. You deserve your refund.

By the way, this Sam Farrow needs to make good or he will get the BWW here.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

Sometimes it does get confusing.

Because some of them wear several hats.


In this instance, the way I understand it.

We have the concession owner, who I assume is the outfitter.

We have the professional hunter, we have the client, and of course the government which issues the permits.


Everything was fine, until the government stepped in.

The client had paid for a hunt advertised by the professional hunter for a hunt on the outfitter’s land.

Client paid what he was asked to pay.

Ever was looking forward to a successful business transaction.

And, as usually happens, the politicians, most probably not getting some pay back, or because someone else offered a better deal, stepped in and messed things up.

The client wants his money back.

The outfitter agreed to this, but paying in installments.

Which is not acceptable to the client, and rightly so.

What we don’t know is if he had paid the professional hunter for this hunt.

And if the professional hunter had paid it back.

Everything is relatively clear.

Except why the refund is not paid immediately!

It would be interesting if the above is not correct, someone will give us the facts.

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss

Andrew, I did not catch this before my post.

Would you have made more than PH fees if the hunt occurred? It’s none of my business and I understand you really got farked at RK.

quote:

Would you have made more than PH fees if the hunt occurred? It’s none of my business and I understand you really got farked at RK.

There is no fixed rate for PH guiding fees; some outfitters pay more while others pay less.

The same applies with the PH who, based on his success rating, will also have his minimum acceptable daily fee.

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Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

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Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

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Originally posted by Saeed:

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Originally posted by MJines:
Does not seem that complex to me. The person advertising and offering the hunt is the person ultimately responsible for making things right. I find this whole outfitter versus concession operator a confusing complexity that just creates a potential for finger pointing, playing the blame game and giving the client the round around. Someone offers and advertises a hunt. What they do and who they deal with to make that hunt happen is their responsibility. And if and when something goes south, it is the responsibility of the person who offered and advertised the hunt to sort it out, not punt the responsibility to the "operator".

Actually, that is not strictly true.

Did the person who sued McDonalds for millions when she spilled hot coffee on herself sue the server or McDonald?

Who actually took the money?

Saeed, it is worse than not strictly true.

It may be the stupidest, most naive drivel ever uttered on this subject.

Astonishing.

Michael

I guess I must be a stupid naive fraud?

If a renowed PH on this site, asked me if I would do a hunt with him. He gets me to transfere what for many is a years income. And then 4 weeks before the hunt tells me that the hunt is off. Because the big risk of the consession being closed that he knew all about, but did not tell me, has just happend. And then does not refund my payment. Then I would get very very angry on him.

Regards
Carl Frederik
Stupid naive and fraudulent

If I knew the concession was to be closed at a later date to the Prime concessions then why the hell would I book clients here and endure the stress of shuffling and refunds? You might well note that the Operator informed me today that he and the poster had reached an agreement on 21 September and that should be the end of this sorry tale

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Originally posted by DCS Member:

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by Saeed:

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Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

Sometimes it does get confusing.

Because some of them wear several hats.


In this instance, the way I understand it.

We have the concession owner, who I assume is the outfitter.

We have the professional hunter, we have the client, and of course the government which issues the permits.


Everything was fine, until the government stepped in.

The client had paid for a hunt advertised by the professional hunter for a hunt on the outfitter’s land.

Client paid what he was asked to pay.

Ever was looking forward to a successful business transaction.

And, as usually happens, the politicians, most probably not getting some pay back, or because someone else offered a better deal, stepped in and messed things up.

The client wants his money back.

The outfitter agreed to this, but paying in installments.

Which is not acceptable to the client, and rightly so.

What we don’t know is if he had paid the professional hunter for this hunt.

And if the professional hunter had paid it back.

Everything is relatively clear.

Except why the refund is not paid immediately!

It would be interesting if the above is not correct, someone will give us the facts.

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss

Andrew, I did not catch this before my post.

Would you have made more than PH fees if the hunt occurred? It’s none of my business and I understand you really got farked at RK.

No but the attraction is a 21 day safari

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by DCS Member:

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by Saeed:

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Originally posted by BaxterB:

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Originally posted by K Evans:
I’ve followed this thread from the beginning and hope the hunter is able to be made whole. Also hope he is able to take his Dad on a hunt, that would be the absolute best outcome.
I’m ignorant of how “freelance” PH’s receive compensation for their services, are they paid a daily rate by the booking agent or concession owner upon completion of the hunt, or is the daily rate paid upon booking? Does the freelancer receive a portion of trophy fees (that would seem fair to me), even those included in the original booking? To me, in the event a freelancer is paid his (or her) portion of upfront payment and the hunt is unable to happen due to any circumstance other than the hunter backing out, then I think it reasonable the freelancer return that portion received to the hunter.
Hopefully, someone on here knows how this sort of thing works and will enlighten me.

I;m ignorant on the entire structure/role of agents, outfitters, owners, operators, concession holders, etc. The PH is about the only role I think I understand....

Sometimes it does get confusing.

Because some of them wear several hats.


In this instance, the way I understand it.

We have the concession owner, who I assume is the outfitter.

We have the professional hunter, we have the client, and of course the government which issues the permits.


Everything was fine, until the government stepped in.

The client had paid for a hunt advertised by the professional hunter for a hunt on the outfitter’s land.

Client paid what he was asked to pay.

Ever was looking forward to a successful business transaction.

And, as usually happens, the politicians, most probably not getting some pay back, or because someone else offered a better deal, stepped in and messed things up.

The client wants his money back.

The outfitter agreed to this, but paying in installments.

Which is not acceptable to the client, and rightly so.

What we don’t know is if he had paid the professional hunter for this hunt.

And if the professional hunter had paid it back.

Everything is relatively clear.

Except why the refund is not paid immediately!

It would be interesting if the above is not correct, someone will give us the facts.

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss

Andrew, I did not catch this before my post.

Would you have made more than PH fees if the hunt occurred? It’s none of my business and I understand you really got farked at RK.

No but the attraction is a 21 day safari

That beats 21 days at the office.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss[/QUOTE]




The actual messages from the African Hunting forum seems to directly contradict a portion of this statement .

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Originally posted by larryshores:

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Originally posted by fairgame:

Saeed I did not advertise this hunt but was approached by the poster whom I introduced to the Outfitter and not party to the deposit arrangements nor did I receive any payment or commission or mark up on trophy fees but was to be paid a PH wage which is my loss

The actual messages from the African Hunting forum seems to directly contradict a portion of this statement .[/QUOTE] This was last year and do you know which Tender I am referring to? Or note that Ibi was awarded Chanjuzi on both tenders? That Chanjuzi was not included in the first closure of Prime hunting concessions?

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Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
Michael

I guess I must be a stupid naive fraud?
Regards
Carl Frederik
Stupid naive and fraudulent

Sorry, my friend, but it is indeed the height of stupidity and naïveté for anyone to expect that anyone else will refund his deposit except the person with whom he signed the contract and to whom he paid the deposit in the first place.

I would wager that no PH in Africa would, or would even be able to, pull $60K out of his pocket to make good on a concession owner’s debt that was occasioned by a government double-cross.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

You might well note that the Operator informed me today that he and the poster had reached an agreement on 21 September and that should be the end of this sorry tale

Excellent news.