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One of Us |
Sorry, my friend, but it is indeed the height of stupidity and naïveté for anyone to expect that anyone else will refund his deposit except the person with whom he signed the contract and to whom he paid the deposit in the first place. I would wager that no PH in Africa would, and that the average PH would not necessarily even be able to, pull $60K out of his pocket to make good on a concession owner’s debt that was occasioned by a government double-cross.
Excellent news. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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This was last year and do you know which Tender I am referring to? Or note that Ibi was awarded Chanjuzi on both tenders? That Chanjuzi was not included in the first closure of Prime hunting concessions?[/QUOTE] You indicated he contacted you. That does not appear to be the case. | |||
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You sell the hunt, you stand by the hunt. That’s the honorable thing to do. Mike | |||
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100% Andrew, who made initial personal contact? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Again: Who signed the contract? Who has the money? A: Undisputed, the concession owner. Was it put into escrow? Were there restrictions put on its use? A: Undisputed, no. Did Andrew get any piece of it? A: Undisputed, no. Andrew did not make money. He lost his daily rates, which were his only compensation. Should the concession owner refund the money? A: Yes, at least now. Has a deal to do so been reached. A: Yes. As I expected would happen from the start. But, of course, I see these things clearly as they are in the real world, and I am not motivated by malice. African big game hunting is not a game for the risk averse, and I am very happy that this turned out in a satisfactory way. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Does it matter anymore? It would seem the last client has made a reimbursement plan with the Operator and all the rest have been paid back which was the honorable thing to do ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Mr Jines selling something indicates I received a payment does it not? Dunno what you mean by standing by the hunt and all participants have or are currently being refunded which is the honorable thing to do by the Operator and that is why I will book with and support him again ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Once again, this has turned into a shit show. I don’t know Andrew, but he stepped up after Stu took a .458 in the shoulder from Tim by “donating” prints to help the family and Stu. Mark sullivan did as well as Saeed and Larry. That became a shit show. As I’ve said here before, Andrew would be my pick in Zambia. His circumstances have changed drastically since. We don’t know the arrangements, but I damn sure hope he was getting more than daily rates on a hunt with a $60k deposit. However, the hunt was never conducted. CME needs and deserves his money refunded. He may have signed a contract, but it was for a concession closed. Marcus just a few corrections: I personally donated more funds from my art for Stu and Phillip than any other with the exception of anonymous donors such as Saeed. Secondly, I expect nothing more than my PH wage and my incentive is to hunt Thirdly the concession was awarded and not closed until a later injunction ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I am starting to notice a pattern here. Self serving statements are being made that often are not supported by the facts. It has happened several times on this thread . The facts are that you have no way of knowing who donated the most money to the worthy cause of helping Stu Taylor. Why? You do not have the records . I do. Let me give you a hot flash. You did not donate the most money nor even close to it . | |||
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 ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Andrew - I’m very pleased that the Client received his refund. As you know, I’m pretty familiar with all the Zambian individuals involved. They are all very credible people, Roland included. My question as to who contacted who, only goes to my personal understanding of the beginning of this fiasco. That’s why it matters to me. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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The above is incorrect…. No one expected Andrew to refund the money… The expectation was simply to stay engaged in the process and help facilitate. Also, I think he should not have allowed the rob Peter to pay Paul methodology amongst a number of clients. CMEs $80,000 was used to refund the others leaving him holding the entire bag Also, one of the above makes the “who knew what and when” problem go away | |||
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The clients hasn’t received a refund and it is still unclear when and how that may or may not happen. Andrew is covering his Ass again. The Operator intends to do so and is still awaiting the outcome of the court case The outfitter simply doesn’t have the $80k to do the refund but intends to | |||
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Michael…you should stay on the sideline if you don’t know the facts…. You are simply defending Andrew which is fine but you have no idea what you are talking about | |||
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Andrew…selling something absolutely does not mean personally receiving the money from said product or service personally It normally infers your role in the sale and transaction. You most definitely sold and brokered the hunt. I would also be absolutely shocked if the compensation was merely the PH rate and not also a healthy normal commission (which would be expected and normal) It’s fine if you were to make more than say $350 a day or whatever… I just don’t see the need to BS about your role in selling the hunt | |||
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My mistake, it just seemed by following along he had been made whole. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Several on this thread have expected if not insisted that Andrew “stand behind the hunt” and cover the poster’s deposit. If you are not, then good for you. But then you say that Andrew “should not have allowed” some clients to be refunded before the poster? As though he has such control and ultimate responsibility? Can’t have it both ways. As far as not knowing what one is talking about, there is nothing I have said that is false or mistaken. You need to pick your battle. It’s not with me. It’s with the operator and has always been. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Absolutely….Andrew wants that to be the appearance so you did the right thing. And in fairness I believe it will and was always intended to be…. The poor outfitter got hammered this year which is horrible. The constant “doubling down” on self righteousness and absolution of any fault or role is what got this whole shit storm started | |||
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I haven’t received a penny back. While I have been told I will be paid back the issue is not resolved. If any of you were in my position how would you feel? Larry Shores already posted the screen shot showing that Andrew reached out to me. He responded with a statement of why does it matter anyone (or something to that effect). Well, it matters because it is just one instance to show that you are not being truthful about this situation. As I said in my first post, I understand that many of you have had good experiences with Andrew but that has not been the case for me. | |||
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You’re right…don’t have a battle with you….simply pointing out inaccuracies in statements. Also, I absolutely believe he should have and could have had a role and obligation in the refund process Michael. I damn sure would have and I think most here would agree and especially since many if not all were also Andrews clients These are all excuses not reasons | |||
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Got it. You're in the hold-a-gun-to-the-outfitter's-head group. God help us. This is a worst-case situation for the poster and I have enormous sympathy for him. As I have said, I would be pissed off, too. But one must aim carefully at the right target in these matters, as in all others. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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. . . especially true with buffalo. Mike | |||
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Bad situation all around....the only one NOT at fault here is the poor client.... Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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Yup. | |||
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And real culprit is government and of course everyone else gets the blame Nothing like standing over your own kill | |||
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The government is not to blame in this case! This court case has been going on for a few years. | |||
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It would help if a time frame indicating when exactly the hunting activities in this and other concessions were suspended and if the outfitter sold the hunt while gambling that the injunction be lifted in time for the reserved dates then he's culpable and liable. Governments in this neck of the woods act on the spur of the moment as some of you on this forum may recollect when there was an absurd trophy fee price hike between one sunrise and the next, forcing a large number of clients to pack their bags and fly out the next day. Hardly the outfitter's fault even though some thought otherwise. | |||
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In general, African governance sucks. Don’t expect chicken shit to turn into chicken salad.  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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And Custom Rifle builders... Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Don’t know exact dates, but since April/May 2022 the concessions have been closed. No hunts took place this year, begs the question as to why the PH and outfitter informed the client only 30 days prior to his departure that the no hunting could take place ? | |||
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| Administrator |
Interesting. Can you enlighten us with the facts please? | |||
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But Mike always remember,.... if you miss your buffalo,....shortly after bragging to the world that you don't really need to practice shooting, and "practice is overrated"...... you can always fall back to blaming the PH in a public forum for your failure to get your buffalo. Go Duke!! | |||
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. . . especially when you give up early, accept an accommodation from the PH after you made the decision to give up, then get home to bitch and moan. Mike | |||
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Now, now, children. Aren’t we cute. I am not surprised. This has what to do with Sam Farrow or the sad consequences of the Zambian government’s mishandling of this year’s tender process? Must be the hunt report I saw here recently where a first time hunter killed a buffalo in Dande East. I hope, for the sake of the game population, that his success was aided by the re-instatement of at least some semblance of anti-poaching efforts. As I pointed out in my Dande East report and related threads, and as was never disputed, anti-poaching patrols were sadly and completely lacking while I was there and clearly had been during the pandemic before that. Poaching was rampant. Yet the area, which is clearly the worst of those that CMS controls, was falsely marketed to me as a buffalo haven, and a place where hunting in June would be no problem. If you want to re-open that discussion, please do it on the original thread, where folks can read the undisputed facts, as posted in detail by me, instead of your childish, cartoon versions. Just as an example, you seem to have left out CMS’s aborted plan, which was brought to light by public pressure in one of those threads, to charge non-refundable trophy fees in advance in their best concession. Brilliant, that. Happy to discuss further. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Saeed, I believe they have been laid out numerous times but I will sum them up once again (and I have seen and been involved in the communications and am the person who recommended Andrew) Fact. Andrew did proactively reach out to CME on a post oh AH inquiring about Lion hunting options for his 40th Bday (I was invited as the second hunter with him on these options) Fact: Andrew organized the hunt with the outfitter with Andrew as the PH in the Chanjuzi concession to start July 17 (forgive me if I misremember an exact date off the top of my head) Fact: at some point, unfortunately, the Chanjuzi concession was embroiled in the tender lawsuits and government shutdowns happening in Zambia. The single biggest question is when did Andrew and the Outfitter know this Fact: the Poster CME added his father as a second hunter and added that contract on April 24, 2023 and was asked to place an additional $20,000 deposit in addition to the $60,000 for a total of $80,000 on what was estimated to be a $150,000 budget all in (I could not go and was very happy he was able to have his Father go) Fact: there were NUMEROUS conversations about the Fathers condition and physical limitations with Parkinson’s to be able to do the Buffalo hunt which also meant time of year and heat etc. Fact: almost exactly (and only) 30 days before the hunt was to be conducted CME was notified of the impending issue and they were hoping it would be resolved and the hunt could perhaps be conducted later in the year Fact: the poster immediately scrambled to try and reorganize a replacement hunt for he and his Father (as could be vouched for by several good folks here who are in the business of organizing and selling said hunts) Fact: the poster did ask for a refund from the outfitter almost immediately as he was, in fact able to find a great option in the Niassa Moz for this year. He told the outfitter in the Niassa he needed to recover his deposit to be able to execute this as he could not afford the hunt without this reimbursement. He tried NUMEROUS times to plead for his deposit to be returned (remember Andrew has denied this) Fact: he repeatedly asked for a refund and the outfitter did not have the funds to do so as the funds were used (clearly partially his funds) to reimburse the other hunters per the posts of some $100,000 combined Fact: he repeatedly asked Andrew for help but Andrew went on (as he needed to to earn a living) to conduct other hunts including a hunt during this timeframe (remember the poster was only notified 30 days prior to July17) Fact: other clients have stated they were told several weeks prior to June 16 of the issue and were refunded their deposits. Again…why was he not and when did they know….we now know it was certainly prior to June 16 by several weeks at least…what about April 24?.. Fact: the poster reached out to numerous people for help including the head of the PH assoc who believed they should or have sold the hunt and especially I believe by April 24 Fact: Andrew has, unfortunately, “misremembered” several facts in this thread.. He “misremembers” reaching out to the poster proactively He “misremembered” I guess what the term “selling a hunt” means He “misremembered” all the discussions around the Fathers condition He “misremembered” the poster asking for his money back He “misremembered” the poster supplied the details to be refunded He “misremembered” it was never an option to conduct the hunt late season with the father He “misremembered” and has never said the most important thing you all don’t seem to want to ask….WHEN did he know the hunt was FUBAR???? He stated recently that the issue was resolved in writing and he knows that it is not….the Outfitter DOES INTEND to remedy the situation and hopes to….he simply doesn’t have the funds to do so or he would have (again while the money clearly including the poster’s money) to refund Andrews other clients What initiated this whole thread hijack was the poster was pissed about Andrews righteous indignation about someone’s deposit on a hunt being consumed by misdeeds of someone organizing a hunt…only difference was the organizer bs the outfitter being the one culpable of having the money So….there are the Facts….. | |||
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^^^^This is a perfect representation of the facts as they stand. In my opinion, the hunt was sold with hopes and dreams and a big paycheck for the PH. Why else would said PH keep trying to push your hunt back, maybe to the next year? At the end of the day, this situation is all about greed and money and anyone that thinks the things done by Andrew weren’t solely in his best interest are drinking some special “kool-aid”. | |||
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This is about the refund of a deposit and CME and the Operator have a contractual obligation to each other of which the contents are theirs, not mine. If I were to answer all your queries we would be entertaining swings and roundabouts. Of course, I arranged this hunt and had much dialogue with CME but were not party to the contact or financial arrangements. Nor deposit or bank details which is none of my business. For us the cut-off date was September and I denied the October option did I not? I booked the previous safari to end 17 and as Neil A stated here it was to accommodate CME. Come that date the injunction had not been lifted and an operator asked if I could help out with a short hunt considering the time frame for booking flights and other logistics gave me a margin to play with. Yes there is evidence of CME asking me to facilitate a refund which I have done with the Operator numerous times only to be told that an arrangement had been made between both parties and the contents of the contract are not my concern. You are more than welcome to ask any Operator I have ever hunted with if I have asked for a commission or markup. Including this one and you do have his number if you would require further clarification. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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CME do not forget that I negotiated a really good deal on a Lion and why not simply ask Ibi if I had demanded a commission? The fact is that I had lined up back-to-back hunts which would have been profitable for me and pretty much seen me based in Chanjuzi for the season. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Again, this sounds just like the Blair Worldwide fiasco. Blair sold a nonexistent sheep hunt for around $90k and the outfitter kept the cash, that has resulted in nearly 40 pages of posts here on AR with people still, rightfully so, piling on Blair. Replace sheep with lion and it appears to be exactly what happened here. I hope this works out better for Cme than it did for Blair’s clients who never received a refund. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I find it rather pathetic that so many people think Andrew should reimburse CME but were not the least bit disgusted by Tim Herald's plea for us to contribute money to Stu Taylor - especially after he published a thread on his new trophy room. "Shit happens; too bad for Stu" was the retort. If Andrew is 100% responsible for the return of CME's money, then Tim was certainly 100% responsible for Stu's medical expenses and loss of livelihood. | |||
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