quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I might add, not only is he not being piled on, he is only being held to the same standard that he has historically held other outfitters. He rarely misses a chance to serve on the kangaroo court jury when another outfitter is being tried. Recall that it was his holier than thou response about Farrow here that was the straw that broke the camel's back since Cme could not abide the hypocrisy.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I might add, not only is he not being piled on, he is only being held to the same standard that he has historically held other outfitters. He rarely misses a chance to serve on the kangaroo court jury when another outfitter is being tried. Recall that it was his holier than thou response about Farrow here that was the straw that broke the camel's back since Cme could not abide the hypocrisy.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
That is fraud and report him to the feds

Andrew, Is this really any different than you booking hunts in a closed concession in the Luangwa for a Lion and leopard and cancelling 30 days before your client leaves the states? I know that some of your clients haven’t received their refunds because I happen to be one. Do we want to share your story with the site since you seem so keen to throw others under the bus?

Interesting. I heard this story in Zimbabwe but did not know if it was true or not. Can you provide details?

Sure Larry, here goes.

In 2022, Andrew marketed a hunt on here for leopard in Chanjuzi in the Luangwa Valley. I quickly reached out and made plans to hunt a leopard in 2023. I signed that contract and paid an initial deposit in April 2022. After I returned from my safari in Zimbabwe last year I decided that I also wanted to hunt a lion in 2023. I chatted with Andrew and in October 2022 signed a new contract. I also decided that I wanted to take my dad to Africa with me. He suffers from Parkinson’s and has never hunted Africa. I subsequently added on my dad hunting buffalo and plains game with me. The contract for my dad’s hunt was sent and signed in April 2023. I have now come to find out that a contract should have never been sent and have been informed by the President of PHAZ that said contract is fraudulent. I sent deposits for my day rates with my final payment being made in April for the Lion and leopard as well as my dad’s buff hunt.

On June 15th I received a message on what’s app that the concession was closed for hunting. At that time I was assured that all would be resolved quickly. After a couple of days I decided that I need to look around for a replacement hunt. I reached out to a few outfitters that I knew and was able to find a replacement hunt for this year. I let Andrew and the outfitter know on June 26 that I would need all of the day rates back in order to book the replacement hunt. This request went unattended. Three more requests were made throughout the month of July with Andrew assuring me that all of his clients had been refunded. At that time I reminded him that I was the biggest hunt sold and had not received a refund.

On July 11th, I received a whats app message from the outfitter who informed me that he could send me back small increments of my days rates every 3-4 weeks. I reached out to Andrew to let him know what was relayed to me and asked for assistance. On July 29th, I received a whats app message from Andrew stating that he would be back from hunting in a couple of days and would work to resolve my situation then. (Hmm he is hunting July 29th…I was supposed to be hunting those dates). Was it a coincidence that another hunter was sold a hunt and booked to hunt my dates? Was this hunt sold before or after I found out about my hunt being canceled?

At that time, I let Andrew know that I had no other choice but to wait things out as I would not receive a refund in time to book another hunt. Andrew had always pushed me to wait it out, or said we can do it next year. As I explained to him, on multiple occasions, my dad wouldn’t be able to hunt next year in all likelihood. In August, I again requested a refund for the 5th time. I was informed by the outfitter that the money wasn’t available until he was able to gain control of the concession and resale hunts for next year.

As of today, I still have not received a dollar back, and I see a man that is championed as the beacon of Zambian still posting hunt reports and selling hunts to the good people of this site. While many of you have had good experiences with Andrew unfortunately my dealings have been closer to what the initial poster wrote about a different PH/outfitter than what other people on here have experienced.

There are always two sides to a story and 19 prime hunting blocks were closed down due to claimed irregularities under the previous Government tender and subsequently other blocks one being Chanjuzi (of which I had booked clients) were further restricted under a separate injunction and I had the operator reimburse all clients apart from the poster - It was feasible that the Lion/Leopard hunt would be concluded this year if we could wait it out. I am not sure of all the correspondence between the claimant and the operator but my understanding was that we would sit it out until the Government resolved the legality of the injunction.

I also suggested that the deposit could be carried forward to next year as the pricing was extremely fair, but if the poster is not conducive to this arrangement then I will guarantee a full refund and the hunt will be sold to another. The other hunts were sold to AR members who I ensured were adequately compensated and subsequently rebooked in other areas.

Not sure I want to hunt the poster anymore after this and I bent over backwards to reduce the Lion/Leopard hunt to $60,000 which we will extend to another interested party once the quota has been reinstated.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
I will say it’s been entertaining.

quote:

Guaranteed that he is not entertained.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What really bothers me, besides a guy who clearly demand refund when services not rendered, is the Seller implies the buyer is being ungrateful.

Seller: I moved and shook got you a great deal. I know that is not a perfect quote, but almost perfect.

No the seller did not get the buyer a great deal. The Seller got the buyer to put down 20k short of 6 figures, and then nothing was delivered.

Repayment should have been fast and immediate upon demand. The Seller as agent for the Outfitter should have necessitated immediate refund on demand. This assumes the original contract was not so one sided that such cancellations required the Client to just eat it. At that point, I would not have signed nor sent funds.

Do not buy from someone who does not have a vested interest in the operation who Carrie’s liability.

We as Clients in this industry need to refuse to pay these exorbitant up front deposits. 100 percent down months, maybe a year away from service rendered is unconscionable.

Clients are going to have to start demanding within the contract’s protection from acts of god, government action, seller action resulting in cancellation.

Actually, the common law (US legal doctrine) of Impossibility would render this contract voidable (not void there is a difference) and compensatory damages paid to buyer. Compensatory damages being the money paid.

I know I sound harsh, but there is no good faith cause this man was not refunded long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHeym500:
What really bothers me, besides a guy who clearly demand refund when services not rendered, is the Seller implies the buyer is being ungrateful.

Seller: I moved and shook got you a great deal. I know that is not a perfect quote, but almost perfect.

No the seller did not get the buyer a great deal. The Seller got the buyer to put down 20k short of 6 figures, and then nothing was delivered.

Repayment should have been fast and immediate upon demand. The Seller as agent for the Outfitter should have necessitated immediate refund on demand. This assumes the original contract was not so one sided that such cancellations required the Client to just eat it. At that point, I would not have signed nor sent funds.

Do not buy from someone who does not have a vested interest in the operation who Carrie’s liability.

We as Clients in this industry need to refuse to pay these exorbitant up front deposits. 100 percent down months, maybe a year away from service rendered is unconscionable.

Clients are going to have to start demanding within the contract’s protection from acts of god, government action, seller action resulting in cancellation.

Actually, the common law (US legal doctrine) of Impossibility would render this contract voidable (not void there is a difference) and compensatory damages paid to buyer. Compensatory damages being the money paid.

I know I sound harsh, but there is no good faith cause this man was not refunded long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHeym500:
What really bothers me, besides a guy who clearly demand refund when services not rendered, is the Seller implies the buyer is being ungrateful.

Seller: I moved and shook got you a great deal. I know that is not a perfect quote, but almost perfect.

No the seller did not get the buyer a great deal. The Seller got the buyer to put down 20k short of 6 figures, and then nothing was delivered.

Repayment should have been fast and immediate upon demand. The Seller as agent for the Outfitter should have necessitated immediate refund on demand. This assumes the original contract was not so one sided that such cancellations required the Client to just eat it. At that point, I would not have signed nor sent funds.

Do not buy from someone who does not have a vested interest in the operation who Carrie’s liability.

We as Clients in this industry need to refuse to pay these exorbitant up front deposits. 100 percent down months, maybe a year away from service rendered is unconscionable.

Clients are going to have to start demanding within the contract’s protection from acts of god, government action, seller action resulting in cancellation.

Actually, the common law (US legal doctrine) of Impossibility would render this contract voidable (not void there is a difference) and compensatory damages paid to buyer. Compensatory damages being the money paid.

I know I sound harsh, but there is no good faith cause this man was not refunded long ago.

I get what you are saying . However. , I have to wonder how many times outfitters would not get paid if they didn’t collect up front . I hear horror stories occasionally.[/QUOTE
]

I am not saying no deposit. I am saying we have to force the industry away from 100 percent deposits.

When the last dollar is paid, the buyer loses all leverage.

I have never paid 100 percent up front, nor 100 percent bf completion. Before anyone one states I have done it 5x now internationally.

No, not near as many times as some here, but enough to know we do not have surrender all leverage.

Of an outfitter or agent wants 100 percent upfront, they can get it from someone else. It will not be me.

I would be fine w escrowing so much of the total or balance.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
The part of this hunt most unsettling is the ph and the outfitter requiring the last $20,000 deposit in April of this year for a June hunt, after already having $60,000 on deposit.

Andrew has said how all the other hunters had their hunts moved and deposits transferred to the new outfitters or refunds made to the tune of $100,000.

If memory serves me correct, at least three AR members in this thread have said that their hunts this year with Andrew got moved with no issues. Evidently their deposits with Ibriham were transferred to a new outfitter with no problem.

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.......

quote:

Originally posted by Kpoynter:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHeym500:
What really bothers me, besides a guy who clearly demand refund when services not rendered, is the Seller implies the buyer is being ungrateful.

Seller: I moved and shook got you a great deal. I know that is not a perfect quote, but almost perfect.

No the seller did not get the buyer a great deal. The Seller got the buyer to put down 20k short of 6 figures, and then nothing was delivered.

Repayment should have been fast and immediate upon demand. The Seller as agent for the Outfitter should have necessitated immediate refund on demand. This assumes the original contract was not so one sided that such cancellations required the Client to just eat it. At that point, I would not have signed nor sent funds.

Do not buy from someone who does not have a vested interest in the operation who Carrie’s liability.

We as Clients in this industry need to refuse to pay these exorbitant up front deposits. 100 percent down months, maybe a year away from service rendered is unconscionable.

Clients are going to have to start demanding within the contract’s protection from acts of god, government action, seller action resulting in cancellation.

Actually, the common law (US legal doctrine) of Impossibility would render this contract voidable (not void there is a difference) and compensatory damages paid to buyer. Compensatory damages being the money paid.

I know I sound harsh, but there is no good faith cause this man was not refunded long ago.

I get what you are saying . However. , I have to wonder how many times outfitters would not get paid if they didn’t collect up front . I hear horror stories occasionally.[/QUOTE
]

I am not saying no deposit. I am saying we have to force the industry away from 100 percent deposits.

When the last dollar is paid, the buyer loses all leverage.

I have never paid 100 percent up front, nor 100 percent bf completion. Before anyone one states I have done it 5x now internationally.

No, not near as many times as some here, but enough to know we do not have surrender all leverage.

Of an outfitter or agent wants 100 percent upfront, they can get it from someone else. It will not be me.

I would be fine w escrowing so much of the total or balance.

All great points…one point of clarity. The hunt was going to be $150k all in so it wasn’t 100% paid up front. It was a “Full Bag” Lion/leopard
Most folks want the daily rates paid before arrival as the safari gets close
This one got down to 30 days (however daily rates were paid approx 90 days prior)

I think I’ve certainly paid my daily rates up front perhaps every time (I can’t recall not)

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
The part of this hunt most unsettling is the ph and the outfitter requiring the last $20,000 deposit in April of this year for a June hunt, after already having $60,000 on deposit.

Andrew has said how all the other hunters had their hunts moved and deposits transferred to the new outfitters or refunds made to the tune of $100,000.

If memory serves me correct, at least three AR members in this thread have said that their hunts this year with Andrew got moved with no issues. Evidently their deposits with Ibriham were transferred to a new outfitter with no problem.

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.......

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
Good question. I asked other outfitters/PH’s that hunt in Zambia, none wanted to comment (they are following this). Says a good bit to me. About all I could come with was that he was an associate member of the PH association, possibly hunted in Zim and owned other businesses and that his safari company website says “temporarily closed”.

quote:

An associate member? Well, if that is true, that conflicts with another representation in this thread .

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Originally posted by bcap:

Maybe people on here are to perfect or just like to pile on someone when they see they can kick them easier when down.

quote:

I have booked hunts through PH's that bought quota from other operators and used the camps and concession areas held by other operators.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I have booked hunts through PH's that bought quota from other operators and used the camps and concession areas held by other operators.

Mike:

This is commonly known as sub-leasing an area or part thereof either for a specific hunt or for the entire season.

Not all outfitters/concession owners employ such a tactic but neither is it uncommon as PHs who know how good the area is, sell hunts to their clients who deal directly with the PH, who in turn pays the concession owner whatever rates have been agreed between them.

The outfitter's responsibility is to provide camp, staff, food and fuel from an outfitting perspective; over and above that service, he also provides the "umbrella" which will make it possible for the PH to channel his client through that company with regards to Permits, Govt. and trophy fees, export licenses, etc. etc.

In such a situation, the PH is 100% liable for any screw ups as the client has had zero dealings with the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I have booked hunts through PH's that bought quota from other operators and used the camps and concession areas held by other operators.

Mike:

This is commonly known as sub-leasing an area or part thereof either for a specific hunt or for the entire season.

Not all outfitters/concession owners employ such a tactic but neither is it uncommon as PHs who know how good the area is, sell hunts to their clients who deal directly with the PH, who in turn pays the concession owner whatever rates have been agreed between them.

The outfitter's responsibility is to provide camp, staff, food and fuel from an outfitting perspective; over and above that service, he also provides the "umbrella" which will make it possible for the PH to channel his client through that company with regards to Permits, Govt. and trophy fees, export licenses, etc. etc.

In such a situation, the PH is 100% liable for any screw ups as the client has had zero dealings with the outfitter.

Well done, fulvio. It seems that one lawyer on this thread slept through contracts class in law school.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

This whole process seems convoluted and you have to ask yourself why. I have booked hunts through PH's that bought quota from other operators and used the camps and concession areas held by other operators. In none of those cases was the suggestion ever made that I "book" with the operator directly, contract with the operator, pay the operator, etc. I booked the hunt with the PH selling the hunt, contracted with the PH selling the hunt, paid the PH selling the hunt, etc. The arrangements between the PH and operator were their own private arrangements. Just makes me wonder why such a different process was used here, e.g., was the level of trust between the PH and operator such that the operator was not prepared to rely on the PH for payment, did the operator need cash flow, was the PH doubtful of the operator's ability to deliver and trying to distance himself from the contract, etc. Who knows, but the process used in this instance for booking the hunt is vastly different than in my experience where the PH was selling a hunt based on quota purchased from another operator. Why?

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

Mike:

This is commonly known as sub-leasing an area or part thereof either for a specific hunt or for the entire season.

Not all outfitters/concession owners employ such a tactic but neither is it uncommon as PHs who know how good the area is, sell hunts to their clients who deal directly with the PH, who in turn pays the concession owner whatever rates have been agreed between them.

The outfitter's responsibility is to provide camp, staff, food and fuel from an outfitting perspective; over and above that service, he also provides the "umbrella" which will make it possible for the PH to channel his client through that company with regards to Permits, Govt. and trophy fees, export licenses, etc. etc.

In such a situation, the PH is 100% liable for any screw ups as the client has had zero dealings with the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This type of thing is near and dear to me. I have been hosed by an outfitter in New Zealand . I have been adversely impact by decisions by the Tanzanian government in 2006 and 2007. These matters point out the risks we take in booking hunts as well as the realities of the safari business.

As a practical matter , I think there are certain realities of the safari business . Concession fees are due generally before the season starts . A hell of a lot of expenses are incurred before the season starts . How are these funded ? I would bet good money that these are paid from deposit money by most outfitters. What happens when a government takes an action such as the one the taken by Zambia? It is a big problem.

We take so much for granted when we book a hunt . Things can and do go wrong. When they go wrong , they often go seriously wrong . When they go wrong, the client needs to be truthfully advised asap. Seems this was not done here .

When I book a hunt , it is either with someone I know personally or a very reputable booking agent that I know and have confidence in. Would I communicate with a PH selling me a hunt then send money to some third party I have never heard of ? NEVER!

It is inexcusable that some clients were made whole while one got nothing . It is inexcusable that more money was extracted from the client after the problem was known.

If Andrew was not paid, my personal opinion is that he is obligated to help the client gets refund . He is not obligated to refund monies he never got.

I am quite bothered by the flagrant misrepresentations in this thread .

I hope the money is refunded . I have my doubts.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . the blame rests where it does, and as Cme has indicated repeatedly, from his perspective the PH, who after all marketed and sold the hunt, shoulders a good bit of the blame for the fact he is still waiting on his money. Perhaps if Andrew had not been involved from the inception, marketing and selling the hunt, folks would be less interested in assigning him blame . . . especially now that he disingenuously says it is just a matter between Cme and the operator.

Speaking of Contracts 101, I bet you are going to be hard pressed to find someone familiar with this thread that ever books another hunt being marketed and sold by Andrew without getting Andrew's signature on a contract.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

Maybe people on here are to perfect or just like to pile on someone when they see they can kick them easier when down.

You mean exactly the way Andrew has behaved on this forum in the past?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This type of thing is near and dear to me. I have been hosed by an outfitter in New Zealand . I have been adversely impact by decisions by the Tanzanian government in 2006 and 2007. These matters point out the risks we take in booking hunts as well as the realities of the safari business.

As a practical matter , I think there are certain realities of the safari business . Concession fees are due generally before the season starts . A hell of a lot of expenses are incurred before the season starts . How are these funded ? I would bet good money that these are paid from deposit money by most outfitters. What happens when a government takes an action such as the one the taken by Zambia? It is a big problem.

We take so much for granted when we book a hunt . Things can and do go wrong. When they go wrong , they often go seriously wrong . When they go wrong, the client needs to be truthfully advised asap. Seems this was not done here .

When I book a hunt , it is either with someone I know personally or a very reputable booking agent that I know and have confidence in. Would I communicate with a PH selling me a hunt then send money to some third party I have never heard of ? NEVER!

It is inexcusable that some clients were made whole while one got nothing . It is inexcusable that more money was extracted from the client after the problem was known.

If Andrew was not paid, my personal opinion is that he is obligated to help the client gets refund . He is not obligated to refund monies he never got.

I am quite bothered by the flagrant misrepresentations in this thread .

I hope the money is refunded . I have my doubts.

Wannabe layers in action

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This type of thing is near and dear to me. I have been hosed by an outfitter in New Zealand . I have been adversely impact by decisions by the Tanzanian government in 2006 and 2007. These matters point out the risks we take in booking hunts as well as the realities of the safari business.

As a practical matter , I think there are certain realities of the safari business . Concession fees are due generally before the season starts . A hell of a lot of expenses are incurred before the season starts . How are these funded ? I would bet good money that these are paid from deposit money by most outfitters. What happens when a government takes an action such as the one the taken by Zambia? It is a big problem.

We take so much for granted when we book a hunt . Things can and do go wrong. When they go wrong , they often go seriously wrong . When they go wrong, the client needs to be truthfully advised asap. Seems this was not done here .

When I book a hunt , it is either with someone I know personally or a very reputable booking agent that I know and have confidence in. Would I communicate with a PH selling me a hunt then send money to some third party I have never heard of ? NEVER!

It is inexcusable that some clients were made whole while one got nothing . It is inexcusable that more money was extracted from the client after the problem was known.

If Andrew was not paid, my personal opinion is that he is obligated to help the client gets refund . He is not obligated to refund monies he never got.

I am quite bothered by the flagrant misrepresentations in this thread .

I hope the money is refunded . I have my doubts.