During show season this year there were some (very much unsubstantiated) allegations that Danny McCallum safaris went 1 for 15 on lions last year. Its not true in the slightest, and in fact they only had 5 lion hunters total for all of last season in all of their areas. While they did only kill 1 lion (which is not good success rate, I agree), a mixture of drought and new, little understood regulations regarding lions age hindered that success significantly. We sent 4 of the 5 lion hunters Danny had last year and 3 of them had mature lions on bait, with one killing a giant cat. I'll be the first to say that's not the success rate we expect, but we believed in Danny based on past clients successes and booked more hunters with him this year.

Our first client in camp this year is telling a much different story. Better rains this year have contributed to more plainsgame and buffalo in the areas, and a lot more cats. Our client has been hunting the area since August 1, and so far has taken 2 big maned lions(one of which Danny McCallum himself says has the largest skull he's ever personally seen on a lion), 1 big tom leopard with a second on bait they're hunting this evening, a 47.5" sable, 30" roan, 2 big buffalo (don't know exact size, both over 40"), lots of plainsgame and said "he's seen more game on this safari than on any of the other's he's been on" (he's been on a lot). He also said Danny McCallum is the best professional hunter he's ever been around in any country in Africa or elsewhere.

I'm not trying to "plug" our company, I am just wanting to spread some positive word out there about Danny's company after there was so much overblown negativity from last season that really hurt his reputation as one of the best operators in Africa today. A great start to a season that's sure to turn into another great one for them.

Best Regards,

Greg

Photos of both cats (cats were actually taken in adjacent concessions, Lukwati South and Chunya)

Greg:

Thank you for the update. If you get any photos from these hunts it would be great to see them. I know you sent a photo of the lion taken last October and it was outstanding. Glad to hear the rain has cooperated this year and that game sightings are back on track.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Greg:

Thank you for the update. If you get any photos from these hunts it would be great to see them. I know you sent a photo of the lion taken last October and it was outstanding. Glad to hear the rain has cooperated this year and that game sightings are back on track.

No problem, as soon as he's done with his safari I'll get some photos to post. He's only on day 14 so he won't be home until mid-next week, but I'll get them posted asap.

Greg

It is a sad day when a hunters/ph's sucess is only measured by the number of inches gathered or the number of skins in the salt.

African Hunters Quest, I totally disagree with you. I am not a numbers guy in some regards but I am in others. I want to know success rates, I want to know sizes. A guy tells me his biggest buff for the year is 35", I won't consider it. I realize I only see the top number but I still want to see it. I personally don't need the biggest of anything but I want to know they are there. 1 of 5 on Lion, I would not consider it unless I know why the other 4 were unsuccessful. The more info the better.

Good point Little Joe...whether we like it or not!

I am not a "Numbers Guy" either but I DO want to know what I can honestly expect as far as trophy quality and success rate before I lay out my deposit money. I am not a rich guy that can write off a bad hunt knowing that I can go again in a few months if I want to.

Let's face it...who wants to go home empty handed? I want as much info as I can get so I can chose my PH wisely.

I don't think that this is too far out of line.

quote:

Originally posted by LittleJoe:
African Hunters Quest, I totally disagree with you. I am not a numbers guy in some regards but I am in others. I want to know success rates, I want to know sizes. A guy tells me his biggest buff for the year is 35", I won't consider it. I realize I only see the top number but I still want to see it. I personally don't need the biggest of anything but I want to know they are there. 1 of 5 on Lion, I would not consider it unless I know why the other 4 were unsuccessful. The more info the better.

10-4 Little Joe

When you are spending the kind of money they do in TZ, I wouuld want to know as much up to date details as possible.

2 Lions, possibly 2 leopard

There's a safari that's not for the faint of wallet!

I agree with Little Joe as well.

I hunted with one of McCallum's PH's in Jan who said the lion rule is going to have a plus side: there will be some really big cats in a few years.

Be patient. Save your money.

Fair enough Joe. Each to his own
But this is wild Africa, no fences and no guarantees.
Lions move, game moves, seasons change. Maybe they just had a bad year. I know that the mid summers drought had major effect in the South, what does it do for his concession.

If hunters are not on the ground to conserve first, then they are there for the wrong reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
Fair enough Joe. Each to his own
But this is wild Africa, no fences and no guarantees.
Lions move, game moves, seasons change. Maybe they just had a bad year. I know that the mid summers drought had major effect in the South, what does it do for his concession.

that's all true but this hunt is one of the most expensive in the world. Good for you If you have the money to pay that for a little chance but most people don't. They want the most for their money. Feel free to pay $2500/day to conserve.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
Fair enough Joe. Each to his own
But this is wild Africa, no fences and no guarantees.
Lions move, game moves, seasons change. Maybe they just had a bad year. I know that the mid summers drought had major effect in the South, what does it do for his concession.

If hunters are not on the ground to conserve first, then they are there for the wrong reasons.

Ok understood. Do you think an operator should inform the hunters that are booked for the season about any negative changes in his areas before lining up lion safaris back to back at $50k plus?

If I booked a hunt based on the last couple of years of results in an area and the area changes drastically before my hunt, I would be quite upset if my PH didn't inform me of the changes.

Well done Danny and all. The trophy quality speaks for itself.

Uggg!!! I should be booked with Mike Fell guiding me!!!!!!!

Brett

I hunted Lukwati with Gerard Miller and Jim Shockey was in camp hunting with Fell. We both had an excellent safari. Both had a proper PH that knew the area. Danny and Joanna are first class folks that run a first class operation.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Well done Danny and all. The trophy quality speaks for itself.

Agreed. The client also took his second leopard today. One of the better safaris I've heard of in recent times that's for sure!

While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

That's an opinion I could support!

quote:

While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ, I politely disagree with your proposal. The lure of getting paid the "hefty" trophy fee will ensure that the vast majority of Phs/Outfitters coax the hunter into shooting a lion. It is quite obvious from posters here that if their PH tells them to "shoot" they shoot, no questions asked!

Now, your suggestion, backed by stringent regulations/legislation to ensure compliance to what is currently deemed as the best science available for sustainable hunting of lion might have merit.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

It can happen!!

Gentlemen,

there is no doubt that the new law in TZ is going to massively affect the "success rate" of lion hunts in Tanzania. likewise Bwanamich and others are correct that it SHOULD result , in a fairly short time span, in a much better success rate on real trophy lions.

The market is just going to have to bear with us in Tanzania the next three or four years while we learn to deal with the new laws. As Ledvm mentions repeatedly we now sell the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. As of last year I do not sell specifically lion hunts at all now, just full bag 21 day hunts where you may have the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. I am lucky in that we are mostly reliant on our good ele hunting to keep the wolf from the door, guys totally reliant on the lion hunting are in a harder place.

let,'s hope it works, it should as lions breed like flies if left alone to do so.

If you really want a 100% guaranteed big maned lion you all know where to go....

best

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Gentlemen,

there is no doubt that the new law in TZ is going to massively affect the "success rate" of lion hunts in Tanzania. likewise Bwanamich and others are correct that it SHOULD result , in a fairly short time span, in a much better success rate on real trophy lions.

The market is just going to have to bear with us in Tanzania the next three or four years while we learn to deal with the new laws. As Ledvm mentions repeatedly we now sell the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. As of last year I do not sell specifically lion hunts at all now, just full bag 21 day hunts where you may have the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. I am lucky in that we are mostly reliant on our good ele hunting to keep the wolf from the door, guys totally reliant on the lion hunting are in a harder place.

let,'s hope it works, it should as lions breed like flies if left alone to do so.

If you really want a 100% guaranteed big maned lion you all know where to go....

best

Jonathan

JT what areas do you do your elephant hunting in TZ? I hope you have not been affected by the poaching that has been widely reported in the Selous.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Gentlemen,

there is no doubt that the new law in TZ is going to massively affect the "success rate" of lion hunts in Tanzania. likewise Bwanamich and others are correct that it SHOULD result , in a fairly short time span, in a much better success rate on real trophy lions.

The market is just going to have to bear with us in Tanzania the next three or four years while we learn to deal with the new laws. As Ledvm mentions repeatedly we now sell the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. As of last year I do not sell specifically lion hunts at all now, just full bag 21 day hunts where you may have the "opportunity" to shoot a big old lion. I am lucky in that we are mostly reliant on our good ele hunting to keep the wolf from the door, guys totally reliant on the lion hunting are in a harder place.

let,'s hope it works, it should as lions breed like flies if left alone to do so.

If you really want a 100% guaranteed big maned lion you all know where to go....

best

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

what a shame trying to justfy the shooting of lions,what is his qouta towards his blocks.he surely is shooting more cats then normal,.its all with the new allocokation.everyone will shoot as much they can.not even care abt conservations. Good for danny to shoot all the lions what he can duning the one year he is left with. also the company doesn`t belong to him,he has leased OLD NYIKA SAFARIS belongs to a local n demanding ownership of the areas belonghing to old nyika safaris. May be he is not aware of this...... the owner of Old Nyika has allocations to his area n not danny.

what a shame trying to justfy the shooting of lions,what is his qouta towards his blocks.he surely is shooting more cats then normal,.its all with the new allocokation.everyone will shoot as much they can.not even care abt conservations. Good for danny to shoot all the lions what he can duning the one year he is left with. also the company doesn`t belong to him,he has leased OLD NYIKA SAFARIS belongs to a local n demanding ownership of the areas belonghing to old nyika safaris. May be he is not aware of this...... the owner of Old Nyika has allocations to his area n not danny.....Mambatz

quote:

Originally posted by mambatz:
what a shame trying to justfy the shooting of lions,what is his qouta towards his blocks.he surely is shooting more cats then normal,.its all with the new allocokation.everyone will shoot as much they can.not even care abt conservations. Good for danny to shoot all the lions what he can duning the one year he is left with. also the company doesn`t belong to him,he has leased OLD NYIKA SAFARIS belongs to a local n demanding ownership of the areas belonghing to old nyika safaris. May be he is not aware of this...... the owner of Old Nyika has allocations to his area n not danny.....Mambatz

You do realize he is only losing Lukwati South, right? He still has a lot more areas... One of these lions was taken in Chunya, the other in Lukwati South. He's got somewhere around 18 lions on quota between all areas (5 million acres) but only sells about 9-10 lions hunts on a good year to keep off take low.

Your rambling post makes literally no sense.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

Mark:

The difference is as a hunter you wouldn't be under the same pressure. How often has a PH or guide said "Shoot so and so - he is huge!" and you elect not to? If I am not picky, I listen to the PH. If I am picky, I make my own mind up, review with the PH what I want, etc.

But even if the PH puts pressure on the client, here is the rub (sorry Jack): it better be legal or the PH will be fined.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

you are right Mark, regardless of Mich. if the majority of Tz PH's would push clients to shoot an immature lion- well that says a lot about the PH's

Jdollar:

" if the majority of Tz PH's would push clients to shoot an immature lion- well that says a lot about the PH's"


The point of argument is not related to maturity but rather a well advanced stage of maturity.

It has been scientifically proven that a Lion attains maturity at 4yrs.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Jdollar:

" if the majority of Tz PH's would push clients to shoot an immature lion- well that says a lot about the PH's"


The point of argument is not related to maturity but rather a well advanced stage of maturity.

It has been scientifically proven that a Lion attains maturity at 4yrs.

And a lion is not old at 6

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

Mark, I wasn't telling anybody anything, I was expressing my opinion. I stand by that opinion until I see evidence to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

Mark:

The difference is as a hunter you wouldn't be under the same pressure. How often has a PH or guide said "Shoot so and so - he is huge!" and you elect not to? If I am not picky, I listen to the PH. If I am picky, I make my own mind up, review with the PH what I want, etc.

But even if the PH puts pressure on the client, here is the rub (sorry Jack): it better be legal or the PH will be fined.

AnotherAZwriter,

That might be true when the PH tells you to shoot that huge wildebeest or dik dik but if he is doing the same on a lion and you are on a lion hunt, from what I have read here on AR over the years, most people won't question the PH

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
While we are discussing the price structure of lion hunting I will share my opinion.

To my mind Lion hunting should carry a heft price tag. This price tag however should not be levied to every robber and their dog who try for lion but should only be incurred when a lion is taken.

There is too much pressure on the outfitters to take a lion at all costs due to the fact that the hunt costs a fortune. If it were not the case, and people were paying a normal DG rate with a larger trophy fee if a cat is taken, then things would be less results driven.

I am also sure that a client who is paying a normal day rate, with the prospect of paying a substantial trophy fee, will be far more selective in the age and size of lion taken. i.e. they will only be willing to shoot a quality trophy at the price they will pay.

Lion hunting is expensive, it is driven by demand and it will need to get more expensive as the lion populations available to hunt get smaller. The practice of selling a single lion to 5 different hunters is simply daylight robbery, the fee should be for the lion. Not for the privileged of riding round in a cruiser checking baits with a stinking bucket to keep you company.

Hunters should exercise their buying power and drive outfitters towards a more just form of billing when lion hunts are involved. Second to that, hunters should be paying to put research teams on the ground to manage lion populations through real science.
Use your buying power to do good for lions and you will have achieved something worth talking about.

AHQ,

The above is essentially what I said earlier. It makes perfect sense to me but Bwanamich told me I was wrong too. I don't buy that the majority PH's would be pushing their clients to still shoot an immature lion.

Mark

you are right Mark, regardless of Mich. if the majority of Tz PH's would push clients to shoot an immature lion- well that says a lot about the PH's

Exactly! But can you blame them when the difference between you shooting the lion and passing on it is $30k - $40k? Plus an added tip at the end of the safari

quote:

But even if the PH puts pressure on the client, here is the rub (sorry Jack): it better be legal or the PH will be fined.

Only in Tz at the moment!

quote:

Originally posted by mambatz:
what a shame trying to justfy the shooting of lions,what is his qouta towards his blocks.he surely is shooting more cats then normal,.its all with the new allocokation.everyone will shoot as much they can.not even care abt conservations. Good for danny to shoot all the lions what he can duning the one year he is left with. also the company doesn`t belong to him,he has leased OLD NYIKA SAFARIS belongs to a local n demanding ownership of the areas belonghing to old nyika safaris. May be he is not aware of this...... the owner of Old Nyika has allocations to his area n not danny.....Mambatz

Mamba, Danny is Tanzanian so not sure what you are trying to explain? And, if you knew Danny personally you would know that he does NOT overshoot or oversell his quota. Acha vurugu!

If I was a client I would rather go home without a lion than with an immature lion. You really need to look at it from the point of view of charging for the old monster and having an expectation of getting that at the money you spend.

The model then is driven by Client to take a real trophy and helps PH's manage their populations to produce the said old monster lions.

Remember that with the high trophy fee and the client pushing to take an old lion there will be no incentive for a PH to shoot young lions if they want to be able to sell more hunts in the future.

Combine that with good science and on the ground reserach and it should not be a big stretch to take off 5 old lions a year through better understanding than to take off 5 small lions a year to satisfy a trigger happy client who has paid full price before they get there.

I have never hunted Tanzania, but I have hunted in a lot of bush, never once was I uncertain of exactly what I was shooting at. If you are taking a snap shot in the heat of the moment you are probably lining yourself up for failure.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Jdollar:

" if the majority of Tz PH's would push clients to shoot an immature lion- well that says a lot about the PH's"


The point of argument is not related to maturity but rather a well advanced stage of maturity.

It has been scientifically proven that a Lion attains maturity at 4yrs.

And a lion is not old at 6

Exactly! An "old" lion would be a 9 or 10 year old. Yes...sexual maturity is reached at 4 but it takes a couple of years to make use of that maturity.

At the age of 10 a lion is well past his prime and in "human" years would probably equate to around 65-70 years and its all downhill from there.

If he were living in the tranquility of the Serengeti or one of those more confined spaces would probably live an extra 3-5 years.

In hunting areas where the dominant male gets taken out after or even before his first pride gets off the ground, he would be damn lucky to make 8 years.

I think the time has come for Tanzania's outfitters to start negotiations with their southern cousins.