Fujo,
If you read what I said above...I said: "an 'old lion' (NOT lion in his prime) would be 9-10"...so I agree. In parks there are many males over 10...in captivity they live over 15

However...the point I was making was that even though a male reaches maturity at 4...there is a 2 year cub-to-cub interval for lioness...thus the 6 year old recommendation.

Lane:

quote:

In hunting areas where the dominant male gets taken out after or even before his first pride gets off the ground, he would be damn lucky to make 8 years.

Assuming a Lion takes a pride at between ages 5-6 and he gets nailed a year or two later substantiates the above.

This means that one has to make sure he is not a pride holder and in a regular hunting concession can be extremely difficult - the habits of the pride male do not necessarily confine him to the group on a 24 hr basis and he can be encountered up to several kilometers from the pride.

You cannot either say that a PH should know his resident lions, simply because they are residential up to a point - in some areas they are most constantly on the move in search of food and water or, as in the case of the Tarangire lions, follow the migration; the odd one may remain and more than likely fall foul to being poisoned.

Up until now I would reservedly say that the majority of the old hands have tried to to stay within the required parameters but as many other qualified PHs have already stated, analyzing the target lion in a hunting area is not quite the same easy feat as in protected areas or others such as private reserves where, even though hunting may take place, the specimen are known by name and some are likely to have a birth certificate in the file.

2013 will herald a great change in the hunting industry and some superb lions are going to get shot in a hurry in some of those northern concessions - then what?

Whatever, the law has been passed so its really quite pointless bitching further about it.
IMO lion hunting in TZ is doomed and the demise of the lion population will increase through unchecked poaching for their body parts and bones; I hope everyone realizes that entire prides are being exterminated and lawful hunters are shouldering the blame.

I had already raised the parts and bone issue months back until someone recently "re-discovered America" by posting a comment that the Chinese had put in a demand for lion parts as a substitute to those of the Tiger.

Tupopamoja, Fujo...

quote:

This means that one has to make sure he is not a pride holder and in a regular hunting concession can be extremely difficult - the habits of the pride male do not necessarily confine him to the group on a 24 hr basis and he can be encountered up to several kilometers from the pride.

Which is why I say that every wild lion population that is hunted, should be paying for a full time researcher to be on the ground, out of its trophy fees.

The sooner people realise this the sooner Lion hunting will be secured for good.
For those that say it is too expensive, I say bullshit. It is a cost of sustainable lion hunting and those that wish to hunt them will simply have to pay the price.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Tupopamoja, Fujo...

Ila wengine wanashindwa au hawataki kuelewa

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters

Which is why I say that every wild lion population that is hunted, should be paying for a full time researcher to be on the ground, out of its trophy fees.

The sooner people realise this the sooner Lion hunting will be secured for good.
For those that say it is too expensive, I say bullshit. It is a cost of sustainable lion hunting and those that wish to hunt them will simply have to pay the price.

What you say cannot really be applied across the board as some areas are far too extensive to monitor; the Selous G.R. being such an area where among other factors to consider is the closure to hunting for 6 months of the year (the extended 3 month period has apparently been discarded so we go back to the July - December program once more).

As of 2013 I also believe there will be a significant hike in trophy fee for lion.

note to self- (1) learn Ki Swahili,(2) plan to spend a fortune and hunt lion in Tz or (3) HUNT LION ELSEWHERE.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
note to self- (3) HUNT LION ELSEWHERE.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Lane:

quote:

In hunting areas where the dominant male gets taken out after or even before his first pride gets off the ground, he would be damn lucky to make 8 years.

Assuming a Lion takes a pride at between ages 5-6 and he gets nailed a year or two later substantiates the above.

This means that one has to make sure he is not a pride holder and in a regular hunting concession can be extremely difficult - the habits of the pride male do not necessarily confine him to the group on a 24 hr basis and he can be encountered up to several kilometers from the pride.

You cannot either say that a PH should know his resident lions, simply because they are residential up to a point - in some areas they are most constantly on the move in search of food and water or, as in the case of the Tarangire lions, follow the migration; the odd one may remain and more than likely fall foul to being poisoned.

Up until now I would reservedly say that the majority of the old hands have tried to to stay within the required parameters but as many other qualified PHs have already stated, analyzing the target lion in a hunting area is not quite the same easy feat as in protected areas or others such as private reserves where, even though hunting may take place, the specimen are known by name and some are likely to have a birth certificate in the file.

2013 will herald a great change in the hunting industry and some superb lions are going to get shot in a hurry in some of those northern concessions - then what?

Whatever, the law has been passed so its really quite pointless bitching further about it.
IMO lion hunting in TZ is doomed and the demise of the lion population will increase through unchecked poaching for their body parts and bones; I hope everyone realizes that entire prides are being exterminated and lawful hunters are shouldering the blame.

I had already raised the parts and bone issue months back until someone recently "re-discovered America" by posting a comment that the Chinese had put in a demand for lion parts as a substitute to those of the Tiger.

Fujo,
Certainly the lion has its major issues from things other than hunting...human encroachment, loss of habitat, retaliatory poisoning, and poaching to name a few.

Hunters must still do the right thing however...IE: harvest sustainably.

I'll have to get Nigel, Michel, or George to interpret the Swahili for me.

In regards to the last comments...why would anybody penalize a country for trying to do something right with it's lion.

it has nothing to do with penalizing anybody and everything to do with spending $75000( or more-much more) to hunt a lion- apparently with a somewhat low success rate. if i had that kind of money i would be gone in a heartbeat but i don't and never will. hell, just to charter into most parts of Tz cost over $3000. i can foresee having $35,000- 40,000 to spend elsewhere. maybe i will get lucky and win the lottery.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
it has nothing to do with penalizing anybody and everything to do with spending $75000( or more-much more) to hunt a lion- apparently with a somewhat low success rate. if i had that kind of money i would be gone in a heartbeat but i don't and never will. hell, just to charter into most parts of Tz cost over $3000. i can foresee having $35,000- 40,000 to spend elsewhere. maybe i will get lucky and win the lottery.

Dr.,
In regards to the money...I read you loud and clear.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
it has nothing to do with penalizing anybody and everything to do with spending $75000( or more-much more) to hunt a lion- apparently with a somewhat low success rate. if i had that kind of money i would be gone in a heartbeat but i don't and never will. hell, just to charter into most parts of Tz cost over $3000. i can foresee having $35,000- 40,000 to spend elsewhere. maybe i will get lucky and win the lottery.

I will add though...if you only settle for a proper lion...the success rates are no better elsewhere.

you are right- but the cost is about half as much- food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
you are right- but the cost is about half as much- food for thought.

You are partially right JD. Not all TZ operators are charging upwards of $75k for a lion hunt. But they are all bound to the same unfortunate rule.

Besides, maybe unique to TZ, but for the $75k that you are spending with some, you have A LOT more animals on license to hunt!

Instead of the draconian measures taken, a reduction of quotas would have been sufficient
though not the ultimate solution either - nor will the new laws.

IMO the concessions with healthy populations to have a quota of 2, others 1 and those that were totally unsustainable 0.

More emphasis has to be directed to the root cause of the problem: land encroachment by an increase in nomadic cattle rearing which leads to the poisoning of entire prides when stock is taken and more recently, a spiraling in poaching instigated by the Shanghai Syndrome which also foresees entire prides being wiped out.

Bugger all is/has been done regarding the above!

To each his own I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Instead of the draconian measures taken, a reduction of quotas would have been sufficient
though not the ultimate solution either - nor will the new laws.

IMO the concessions with healthy populations to have a quota of 2, others 1 and those that were totally unsustainable 0.

More emphasis has to be directed to the root cause of the problem: land encroachment by an increase in nomadic cattle rearing which leads to the poisoning of entire prides when stock is taken and more recently, a spiraling in poaching instigated by the Shanghai Syndrome which also foresees entire prides being wiped out.

Bugger all is/has been done regarding the above!

To each his own I guess.

Fujo,
Short of running for prime minister of Tanzania...I am not sure what to do about the rest. That is all law enforcement problem.

Lane:

"It is good to see that their are still some lion left in the Mara. The Masai have worked hard on killing them out".

At least you have acknowledged one of my arguments

Fujo,
I acknowledge all of your points about the lion's nemeses. But the fact that those events are happening...doesn't give hunters a free pass to do the wrong thing.

Lane,

I don't recall even remotely suggesting that hunters should abandon the ethics that go hand in hand with the selective hunting of lions.

I do object to seeing Tanzania being used as a guinea pig for this project particularly when Tanzania still has the highest wild lion population in Africa even though it may be on a decline but not because of the percentage of immature lions that are being taken by unscrupulous hunters (PHs).

What would you say about the following theory:

If they are adults but don't hold a pride there aren't any cubs that are going to be the subject of infanticide.
You are now looking at the scenario where there may be 2 or 3 brothers (over 4 but under 5 and obviously adults) none of which can be shot because they are under 6.

Each concession has its given quota of lion: What difference would it make if half of that quota did not quite make the grade (PS - I am not advocating the shooting of lions in the 3-4 year category but those specimen between ages 4 & 5 as stated above).

Any lion that appears to be in the 4-5 age group and holding a pride should be left well alone (but who is going to police this advice if not the PH himself - this is where we all have to be honest with ourselves and quite frankly I would be of the opinion that most of us would respect this 'rule').

Hence my remark that it would have been more appropriate (IMO) to reduce the quotas by 2/3
and be permitted to shoot an adult male as per above. In addition, this quota reduction to be enforced for a minimum period of 3-5 years on a concession by concession basis, based on the population within that concession.

Infanticide in lions can also be the result of excessive numbers of males in a given area, meaning one does not necessarily have to kill the pride holder to trigger the situation and is also quite likely that most cases of lion infanticide are not due to a hunter's bullet.

I suppose the answer to that is "nature looking after itself".

Last but not least, come 2013 with its influx of 'fresh from college' PHs on the loose, it will be most interesting to see the outcome and results of lions harvested/killed/photographed/dumped - how silly, of course, the results will never show will they.

The thread has been hijacked again - my apologies.

Fujo,
Would you rather have a concession with 2 lion on quota or 4 on quota?

Look at the mess that has transpired because the WD has WITHOUT sufficient notice reduced lion quota to 1-2 per block nationwide!

quote:

I do object to seeing Tanzania being used as a guinea pig for this project particularly when Tanzania still has the highest wild lion population in Africa even though it may be on a decline but not because of the percentage of immature lions that are being taken by unscrupulous hunters (PHs).

As a result of this decision though, we might very well see TZ being allowed to export its lion trophies into the USA while other countries not.

I also disagree partially about the last part of your above sentence.... I have seen it first hand in some of our blocks - and confirmed by my predecessors in other blocks - when we used to take 8-10 lion (then WD quota) per block (through the 90's) how dramatic and quickly the drop in trophy quality occurred in those blocks. Some of these blocks are still struggling to recover and I can assure you that human pressure in these specific areas is not yet an issue.

More recently, the Kigosi blocks proved that over harvesting of male lion can have a quick negative impact: when we gave 2 Kigosi blocks back, the new operator shot the full quota (5-6) per block in 2 consecutive seasons (previous harvest was 1-2 lion)and from the 3rd season harvest dropped to about half. By the 5th season in operation, they could hardly see a lion in 21 days!

One just has to trace the historical trophy pictures of lion over the last 2-3 decades to see what a dramatic drop in trophy quality there has been in many countries and blocks - not always due to human pressure and its incompatible activites.

Just to add: I think a lot of us are overestimating the survival rate of male lion to reach the age where they have secured a pride of their own, bred and raised one offspring cycle to independence!

In "tough" lion habitat -unlike most NP- I am prepared to guess that fewer than 40% of male cubs born in such a population are able to complete this cycle. If you were to do the sums, we would be suprised at the results!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fujo,
Would you rather have a concession with 2 lion on quota or 4 on quota?

Look at the mess that has transpired because the WD has WITHOUT sufficient notice reduced lion quota to 1-2 per block nationwide!

I would rather have 2 on quota per concession which equates to 2 or 3 less than what I would have had before and is the reduction I had called for
Keep it in mind that seasoned outfitters will have no less than 3-4 concessions @ 2 lions per block = 8 lions.....what was it before?

And whom do we have to thank for that?.... certainly not the outfitters, well, not all of them.

Mich:

quote:

.... when Tanzania still has the highest wild lion population in Africa even though it may be on a decline but not because of the percentage of immature lions that are being taken by unscrupulous hunters (PHs).

I also disagree partially about the last part of your above sentence....

But you go on to say:

... when we gave 2 Kigosi blocks back, the new operator shot the full quota (5-6) per block in 2 consecutive seasons (previous harvest was 1-2 lion)and from the 3rd season harvest dropped to about half. By the 5th season in operation, they could hardly see a lion in 21 days![/QUOTE]

Wouldn't you agree that the new operator was unscrupulous in his ways?

Let's wait and see how the new season plays itself out.

Fujo,
In response to above.

In days of yesteryear...prides were more often headed by coalitions of 2 or 3 males and sometimes even 4. These coalitions gave strength to prides not seen today. Having the pride headed by coalitions gave prides more killing power for buff but mainly made the pride resistant to take over for years allowing for longterm pride growth and strength.

So now that brings to leaving those coalitions of 3 & 4's alone. Reasons why??? Mich brings up an important point above...young male survivability. Young males survive in coalitions much better. These are mini-prides that simulate real pride dynamics and give those recently pride-weaned young males better hunting success. These successful coalitions then take over prides and are able to hold them longer and breed more efficiently. Both allowing for better pride strength and propagation of more lion.

Those are the reasons to not shoot those young males.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Mich:

quote:

.... when Tanzania still has the highest wild lion population in Africa even though it may be on a decline but not because of the percentage of immature lions that are being taken by unscrupulous hunters (PHs).[/QUOTE]


I also disagree partially about the last part of your above sentence....

But you go on to say:

... when we gave 2 Kigosi blocks back, the new operator shot the full quota (5-6) per block in 2 consecutive seasons (previous harvest was 1-2 lion)and from the 3rd season harvest dropped to about half. By the 5th season in operation, they could hardly see a lion in 21 days!

Wouldn't you agree that the new operator was unscrupulous in his ways?

Let's wait and see how the new season plays itself out.

Fujo,

When I read the bold sentence in your post above, what I comprehend you are saying is that the decline of lion's in Tz IS NOT as a result of immature lions being hunted by unscrupolous outfitter's/phs.

I then posted an example of the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Fujo,
Would you rather have a concession with 2 lion on quota or 4 on quota?

Look at the mess that has transpired because the WD has WITHOUT sufficient notice reduced lion quota to 1-2 per block nationwide!

I would rather have 2 on quota per concession which equates to 2 or 3 less than what I would have had before and is the reduction I had called for
Keep it in mind that seasoned outfitters will have no less than 3-4 concessions @ 2 lions per block = 8 lions.....what was it before?

And whom do we have to thank for that?.... certainly not the outfitters, well, not all of them.

So in other words, you are suggesting that you can make do with selling 2 x 21 day hunts per block (+ a bunch of other shorter hunts) and recover your investment plus a margin?

My hat is off to you.

Here is another suggestion:
TZ has an annual CITES quota of 500 lion (Incidentally, that is an average of 3 lion per block nationwide - of course not all blocks have lion nor can they sustain harvesting 3 lion a season!). If this quota is managed like the elephant quota that could be an interesting discussion. At least, you are less limited in your marketing.

Mich:

It means that we will have to sell our hunts like everyone else beyond our borders but manage our cats accordingly so that they work out as 4 x 21 and gone will be the days when a client would have had the privilege of both lion and leopard on a 21 day licence, 3 buff, and a string of doubles on lesser game. It looks like there will be more buffalo hunts being sold to cover the deficit.

But hey, hang on .... you seemed to be making ends meet when you were taking 1-2 from Kigosi when you had 5-6 on quota ...or maybe not and that's why your people gave it up

Part of the price one has to pay for the new rule I guess (who gets hurt the most?...the client ......end result? ....he'll take his business somewhere else and I can't blame him.)

Fujo,

If we had 5-6 lion on quota, we sold 5-6 x 21 day hunts with a lion as part of the general bag.

You know as well as I do that TZ's one competitive edge over other destinations and the reason we can still compete at the prices that TZ sells, is because of the "full bag" attraction! More bang for the buck! You start "packaging" bits of quota into shorter sellable hunts, and you will have to drop your prices considerably, and with it your margin! You know that Gov will not reduce its fees!


Looks like its me and you carrying on this conversation so I'll end by saying that we can discuss this further over a drink one day down the line....

Would be a great pleasure

I forgot who posted the comment but there was a comment about a drought. That most definitely impacts many areas negatively. It highlights a risk few ever speak of. This risk is booking a high dollar hunt in a prime area in the future only to have a drought change everything.

I have had 2 horrible safaris in prime areas. I blame drought in both cases.

I'll jump into this one regrding TZ. I will preface with the fact that I have never hunted there.

TZ used to be the place you could go for a Big 4 General Bag Safari. I do not think that is the case any longer. You guy's in TZ tell me how many of your hunters have taken BOTH elephant and lion on the same safari in the past 5 years?

I know TGTS the answer is 0 because they dont have elephant areas. Even the Selous is not producing in light of recent poaching activity.

Pasanisi MAYBE well see. Lokisale it could happen but usually the client takes one or the other.

I know of one safari in early 2011 that took both in Lunda bodering Ruaha.

Just my observations over the years

Then you haven't done your homework properly.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Then you haven't done your homework properly.

OK fujotupu ..you are really making me think now.

Ramoni could certainly do it and maybe one or 2 in the past 2 years that have taken BOTH. As I said Pasanisi usually good on elephants but did not see many lions from them last year anyhow.

Danny McCallum same as TGTS...great areas but no eles. Same in Kizigo,Maswa, Kigosi (although I think I read of one pulled off there but not recently..may have been Moyowasi). Samaras used to do it regulary but eles and lions have been a bit thin lately IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:


Looks like its me and you carrying on this conversation so I'll end by saying that we can discuss this further over a drink one day down the line....

Likewise I believe we have flogged this poor old 8 year old lion to an early grave. I think Bwanamich, Fujo and myself all have the same goal in mind, and scarily, despite all our good intentions, the bigger picture is out of our hands...BUT

" for evil to prevail it is necessary only that good men do nothing"

So count me in for that beer whenever, Karibuni hapa Selous.

P.S. I just had a very heartening visit to my camp from Mr. Benson Kibonde who is reappointed Project Manager Selous and is all over the poaching thing like a rash so ... We live in hope!

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
I'll jump into this one regrding TZ. I will preface with the fact that I have never hunted there.

TZ used to be the place you could go for a Big 4 General Bag Safari. I do not think that is the case any longer. You guy's in TZ tell me how many of your hunters have taken BOTH elephant and lion on the same safari in the past 5 years?

I know TGTS the answer is 0 because they dont have elephant areas. Even the Selous is not producing in light of recent poaching activity.

Pasanisi MAYBE well see. Lokisale it could happen but usually the client takes one or the other.

I know of one safari in early 2011 that took both in Lunda bodering Ruaha.

Just my observations over the years

In 2009 I took lion, elephant, and leopard in the same hunt. Fujo was my PH. And he did pass on a young male lion - brushed it off immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
I'll jump into this one regrding TZ. I will preface with the fact that I have never hunted there.

TZ used to be the place you could go for a Big 4 General Bag Safari. I do not think that is the case any longer. You guy's in TZ tell me how many of your hunters have taken BOTH elephant and lion on the same safari in the past 5 years?

I know TGTS the answer is 0 because they dont have elephant areas. Even the Selous is not producing in light of recent poaching activity.

Pasanisi MAYBE well see. Lokisale it could happen but usually the client takes one or the other.

I know of one safari in early 2011 that took both in Lunda bodering Ruaha.

Just my observations over the years

In 2009 I took lion, elephant, and leopard in the same hunt. Fujo was my PH. And he did pass on a young male lion - brushed it off immediately.

That is GREAT .. I hope there are more ele/lions taken in TZ than I realize. Remember 2009 was a LONG time ago.

To put it in perspective.. I dont know that Cotton Gordon EVER took an elephant AND a lion on one safari! A hell of a lot of lions for sure but an ele AND a lion ..dont think so. Hillary Daffi .. YES since Cotton's demise in Lunga.

I'll bet you that George Angilides could count on the fingers of one hand the times he accomplished this and that goes back a LONG way!!

Botton line gentlemen and Elephant AND a lion on one safari is extremely rare in 2012!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Remember 2009 was a LONG time ago.

You said within five years. You are right; 2009 was a long time ago if counted in dog years. But it seems like yesterday to me.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Remember 2009 was a LONG time ago.

You said within five years. You are right; 2009 was a long time ago if counted in dog years. But it seems like yesterday to me.

You are correct I did say going back 5 years BUT my point was that alot has changed in 5 years that would make it very difficult to repeat in 2012. Those changes are new lion regs that went into effect in 2011 which I think is a good thing combined with elephant poaching in the Selous which is obviously a bad thing.

Unfortunately I believe a typical 21 day hunt in Selous this year will yield the results we saw on the " 3 Generation Safari" with neither an elephant or a lion taken. Buffalo, PG and probably a leopard will be your typical bag in the Selous IMO.