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Who are "we" and why the use of the pseudonym? Why not explain who "we" are so that "we" can make an informed decision on how much credence to attach to the views you are expressing? I am not trying to be argumentative, you may be the most knowledgeable person on these issues in Zim but I find the whole Oz behind the curtain thing a little odd. Mike | |||
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That's what I was trying to get at in an earlier post. Who (and what), exactly, is "Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation"? | |||
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The bottom line on this whole situation is that it is a public relations nightmare for the whole sport hunting industry. The libs have their minds made up and don't want to hear about science or facts about what is really happening on the ground in Africa, and unfortunately they have their man in the White House. Lion trophy importation will be illegal by the end of August, my prediction. | |||
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As many have said before...Social Media is the downfall of hunting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Mike, we are a few guys from both the hunting and photographic industry here in Zimbabwe. Just like the hunter from Bloomington , whose life has been forever changed by this, whether complicit in the goings on or not, his life will never be the same again. He was convicted before all the facts where established. That is the very reason we have chosen to not go by our names. If you understood the goings on here, it would be very naive of us to think that we would be protected by the relevant authorities for spilling the beans on illegal goings on in our industry, by the bigwigs and politically connected . I understand your point of view, and respect that. That said if we come out guns blazing with evidence against the rogue / politically powerful operators or hunters..... You are sitting in the safety of your home in a first world country, where the rule of law is respected. We on the other hand could find ourselves up the creek without a paddle. Been there done that, never again. No matter how correct your facts are, you could have it 110% correct, next thing I know something has happened to me or my family, or the other guys who so selfishly strive to keep it within the confines of the law. And always reporting any illegal activities that take place. This industry has been my livelihood for the past 35 years. I am not about to jeopardize that for the sake of whistleblowing using my own name. If you have any doubts of any content of our posts, we will gladly furnish you with details of people at the Zimbabwe parks HQ / other credible sources that we have checked or received information from, who will be happy to corroborate the validity / accuracy of information provided . | |||
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Maybe it's just me, but isn't this attitude, the "get it while the getting is good (or at least possible)" part of the problem in this whole episode? In other words there seems to be a scramble to hunt a scarce resource because common sense tells us that it won't be possible to do so in the indeterminate future. Is that a reason to " go get a lion?" After all, this is what Palmer was doing- he was getting his lion. Far too many hunters are unwilling to criticize another hunter because it's perceived on the whole as self-criticism. Not me. If you wish to abide by this rule of "hunt while you can", simply because it may not be possible in the future (I.e. the scarcity determines the value), you have checked your ethics at the door, and entered into a world where greed and self aggrandizement via the symbolic interactionists view of the world has driven your actions. There is little introspection in these cases, nor a true desire to hunt an animal for any reason other than what the killing of the animal is supposed to add to ones life by how it is defined by others, and that it is possible to do so. Frankly, I see this phrase pop up on AR far too often. If this is why we hunt, we are hunting for the wrong reason. As far as Cecil. When a future generation looks back at the moment the tide turned on lion hunting, this could very well be it. We can deride Internet outrage all we want, but it's real, and it has a louder, more powerful voice than any of us want to admit. It would likely be in the best interests of the lions and hunters if a mere portion of the money spent on tags and licenses were spent on the PR game that will become vital to hunter's futures. But perspicacity has never really been a hallmark of the hunter. We need not necessarily convince people that they should hunt lion, but if the evidence shows its a vital part of a holistic approach to African wildlife management, it needs to be part of the conversation. Until it is, what else can we expect? | |||
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Exactly!!! | |||
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Surprising thing is that a lot of my right wing face book friends who post all kinds of political stuff are also posting pro Cecil anti trophy hunting stuff. They are also very pro gun rights. I am just glad I have never posted my lion pictures with me in them on line or in social media. Just not worth it. Mike | |||
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I understand the dilemma but also please understand where I am coming from (I speak for myself, others are free to accept and believe whatever they want). We have this major blow up in the sport hunting industry. The Internet comes alive with allegations going in all directions, social media explodes, etc. Someone comes on AR that has never posted before and starts putting out information that they claim comes from the inside. For the sake of argument, what is to keep someone with their own agenda from signing up with a nifty screen name and proceeding to post whatever they want factual or otherwise? I am not calling you liars or trolls, in fact that is probably not the case, but given the anonymity afforded by the Internet, who knows. A thought. There are a number of folks from Zim that post on AR regularly and who are well known, Buzz Charlton, Martin Pieters, Neil Duckworth, Thierry LaBat, Mark Vallero, to name a few. Perhaps one or more of them can vouch for you and your group. Maybe others are more accepting of things at face value . . . I just have a healthy skepticism. Just like I am skeptical that Palmer was some innocent babe in the woods that was taken advantage of by a nefarious and corrupt outfitter that kept him completely in the dark. Mike | |||
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Baxter: I have said this before, but I only want to hunt things I can hunt again. I didn't go lion hunting to "get my lion" I went because it was something I wanted to do. I would like to do it again, but who knows? The way this administration behaves, who can be assured we can go in the future? We can't hunt tigers. Does anyone miss it? What I find appalling is that liberals don't want to be told what they can do with their bodies, who they can marry, etc. but they are the first ones to push their moral concepts on everyone else. I have told anyone who wants to listen (got into few tiffs on Disqus over Cecil) that anyone who eats meat and is critical of hunters is nothing but a hypocrite. Vegetarians prove every day we don't have to eat meat, but we do so for our pleasure. Why is eating meat so morally superior to wearing a fur coat or mounting an animal on your wall? Why is the death of a lion any more morally corrupt than killing a cow to eat it? | |||
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Amid growing fear for the safety of abducted journalist and pro-democracy activist, Itai Dzamara, Amnesty International is calling on the Zimbabwe government to immediately investigate and ensure his safety. Itai Dzamara, was abducted on 9 March 2015 by five men while he was at a barbers’ shop in Harare’s Glen View suburb. The abductors are said to have accused him of stealing cattle before handcuffing him, forcing him into a white truck with concealed number plates and driving off. He has not been seen since. “The abduction of Itai Dzamara is deeply alarming. The Zimbabwean authorities, especially the police, must urgently institute a search operation and do all within their power to ensure his safe return. There must be a full and thorough investigation into his abduction, with those responsible brought to justice,” said Noel Kututwa, Amnesty International Southern Africa’s Deputy Director for Research. Local activists have expressed fear that Itai Dzamara was abducted by State Security agents. Attempts by members of his family and human rights lawyers to establish his whereabouts have been fruitless. A report has been made at Glen Norah Police station in Harare where a case has been opened into his kidnapping. Itai Damara, leader of the Occupy Africa Unity Square protest group, previously submitted a petition to the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, calling on him to resign and pave way for fresh elections. In the past he has been arbitrarily arrested and severely beaten by both state security agents and members of the ruling ZANU-PF party for his activism. | |||
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Mike , we whistleblow a well connected outfit, my name is on the internet postings, next thing you know there's a knock on ur office door, pls come with us to answer some question.. Forget about your rights, being able to phone a friend, etc... The rest could then be history. Do you think for one minute the hunting community you have left exposed is going to put food on your family's table, pay their education,? Yeah right! I hv more chance of winning the powerball jackpot... No matter what source the " correct" information comes from, in the end hopefully some good comes out of it. And those that have transgressed the laws will get what's due to them. We Take people on face value, until they do, or ever do not for that matter give you reason to doubt or question them. I can tell you gone are the days when a mans word and his handshake was as good as a written contract. How many clients arrive in camp and say, please show me a copy of my hunting permit, TR2, copy of the quota allocation, with info of what's been harvested up till the time said client arrived in camp etc....that going to ensure you a trouble free safari..? I very much doubt any, I stand corrected on that. The other Zimbabwe guys you mention I know most of them , they are quite a bit younger than us old dagga boys. A good bunch of guys none the less. And would not hesitate to recommend them to a prospective client. The p/hunters you named, will be in the know, you will see our information is credible. | |||
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Great, I will wait for one of them to weigh in publicly or privately. Mike | |||
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It is amazing watching both sides of the issue throwing stones at the hunter when the facts are not yet known.  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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https://www.facebook.com/usfws...2549/?type=1&theater USFWS_International Affairs The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is deeply concerned about the recent killing of Cecil the lion. We are currently gathering facts about the issue and will assist Zimbabwe officials in whatever manner requested. It is up to all of us - not just the people of Africa - to ensure that healthy, wild populations of animals continue to roam the savanna for generations to come. The African lion is currently protected under CITES Appendix II. In 2014, USFWS proposed listing the lion as threatened under the Endangered Species Act with a special rule that would establish a permitting mechanism for the importation of sport-hunted lion trophies, provided that the lions originate from countries with a scientifically sound management plan for African lions. The public comment period for that proposal closed in late January, and we are currently working on preparing a final rule. That process generally takes a year. The three main threats facing African lions at this time are habitat loss, loss of prey base, and increased human-lion conflict. Human settlements and agricultural and grazing activities have expanded into lion habitat and protected areas, putting more livestock in proximity to lions. The lion’s native prey base is hunted by humans at unsustainable levels to meet a growing demand for food for an expanding human population. As a result, lions kill more livestock, which then leads to retaliatory killings by humans. Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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Just ask Joice Mujuru about Solomon's death. | |||
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Probably used white phosphorous on ole Solomon. | |||
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I imagine that Bronkhorst career is over. I will bet not a single thing is done to Ndlovu. After all, he managed to get that property. I'm betting that wasn't because of his good looks. | |||
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I do hear the flames were an odd color. | |||
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We've got a bunch of grown men all worked up on both sides of the fence here.. It appears worse because some researchers used social media to get sympathy for a lion they named "Cecil". No doubt the PH and LO were in the wrong... Not sure about the hunter.. It appears he's gone on plenty of hunts since his 2006 bear hunt and plenty before it.. Need to let it play out...  | |||
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33727540 Cecil the lion death: US investigates Walter Palmer hunt 41 minutes ago From the section US & Canada US officials have launched an investigation into the killing of a lion in Zimbabwe but say they have been unable to reach the American involved. The US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) said it was "deeply concerned" about the "tragic" death of Cecil the lion. Director Dan Ashe said they will "go where facts lead" but efforts to reach Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful. Mr Palmer says he thought the hunt was legal but two Zimbabwean men have been arrested over the popular lion's death. The dental practice he runs in Minneapolis has been closed since he was named as the tourist who shot Cecil, Zimbabwe's most famous lion. Protesters gathered outside the building on Wednesday, carrying placards saying "Justice for Cecil", "Trophy hunters are cowards" and "Prosecute poachers". Walter Palmer has faced a huge backlash online over his killing of Cecil the lion In a statement released on Thursday, the FWS said: "We are currently gathering facts about the issue and will assist Zimbabwe officials in whatever manner requested." "At this point in time, however, multiple efforts to contact Dr Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful," it said, saying Mr Palmer or his representative should contact them immediately. "It is up to all of us - not just the people of Africa - to ensure that healthy, wild populations of animals continue to roam the savannah for generations to come," the statement said. The whereabouts of Mr Palmer is currently unknown, but he is thought to have returned to the US after Cecil was killed on 1 July. In a letter to his patients, the dentist said he would assist authorities in Zimbabwe or the US in their inquiries. He also apologised for the disruption to his practice, saying he was in the news "for reasons that have nothing to do with my profession or the care I provide for you". Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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No matter how this shakes out, from a mystifyingly ignorant very experienced hunter being suckered by an unscrupulous PH to a deliberate targeting of a specific desired lion, one thing is perfectly clear: There's no substitute for knowing your PH. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Here's a view to the kill from the other side. http://nypost.com/2015/07/30/w...global-cecil-circus/ ___________________________________________________________________________________________ | |||
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See also: http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/...personal-protection/ As others have said: "He should file go to court to get an injunction against US Fish & Wildlife Service demanding they produce evidence of jurisdiction in the US Code." and "Just another story to distract the American public's attention away from the serious crimes of the Obama administration, Hillary Clinton and Planned Parenthood." and "Ask people in Zimbabwe who Cecil is and they look at you like "who?" When you tell them what happened--because it is not newsworthy enough for them to care about, they ask us why we are so concerned about a lion? Lions are always killing people but no one cares about the people. Which begs the question, why are we paying for the US Fish & Wildlife Service to investigate this?" | |||
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I agree 100%. This incident is doing extremely serious damage to all involved in African hunting. The stories are all over the media: political blogs, local newspapers, national newspapers. Listen folks, it really does not matter to the vast majority of people whether a lion or elephant hunt is legal, ethically conducted (from our perspective) and contributes to the conservation of a species. They have been convinced that lions and elephants are "endangered" and should be hunted at all. When they hear a story about a rich American who lures a beautiful endangered animal out of national park and kills it, they want to see hunting shut down altogether. Unless we want to see our ability to hunt in Africa taken away, and see all the damage that even just shutting Americans out of hunting there would do to the people and wildlife of Africa, we absolutely must condemn poaching of this sort. I certainly agree that this is getting way more media play than it warrants, but if you spend a lot of time with people who don't hunt, you can see why this story has legs. The greed and ego of the couple people involved in this are really going to hurt us all. | |||
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“Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father of two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.” That speaks volumes about our society. | |||
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Not sure that this story will have legs. My guess is that it disappears for the most part over the weekend. The emotion, rumors and disinformation peaked yesterday. The ignorant and misinformed masses and their outrage will be bitching and whining about something else before very long. | |||
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http://nehandaradio.com/2015/0...-to-review-petition/ Cecil the Lion: White House to review petition Jul 30, 2015 The White House has said it will review a petition urging the Obama administration to send the US hunter who killed Cecil the lion to Zimbabwe to face justice. More than 140,000 signatures have been gathered on the campaign to send Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer to the African country. Any petition to the White House that attracts over 100,000 names within 30 days requires an official response. Meanwhile US officials have launched an investigation into the killing of the lion but say they have been unable to reach the American involved. The US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) said it was “deeply concerned” about the “tragic” death of Cecil the lion. Director Dan Ashe said they will “go where facts lead” but efforts to reach Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful. Mr Palmer says he thought the hunt was legal but two Zimbabwean men have been arrested over the popular lion’s death. The dental practice he runs in Minneapolis has been closed since he was named as the tourist who shot Cecil, Zimbabwe’s most famous lion. Protesters gathered outside the building on Wednesday, carrying placards saying “Justice for Cecil”, “Trophy hunters are cowards” and “Prosecute poachers” In a statement released on Thursday, the FWS said: “We are currently gathering facts about the issue and will assist Zimbabwe officials in whatever manner requested.” “At this point in time, however, multiple efforts to contact Dr Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful,” it said, saying Mr Palmer or his representative should contact them immediately. “It is up to all of us – not just the people of Africa – to ensure that healthy, wild populations of animals continue to roam the savannah for generations to come,” the statement said. The whereabouts of Mr Palmer is currently unknown, but he is thought to have returned to the US after Cecil was killed on 1 July. In a letter to his patients, the dentist said he would assist authorities in Zimbabwe or the US in their inquiries. He also apologised for the disruption to his practice, saying he was in the news “for reasons that have nothing to do with my profession or the care I provide for you”. Sky News/BBC Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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Mob rules. Who needs big brother when you have little brother a.k.a. the Internet dispensing justice at the whim of the keystroke? | |||
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My favorite quotes from the comment sections of the reports: Obama said if he had kitty cat it would look like Cecil. I just saw on the news that all the lions in africa are looting. Was it a black lion?? An African lion!! OMG! A hate poaching. One freaking dentist with a fetish for shooting exotic wild animals is about to be crucified; and the people who murder little babies by the millions and sell their organs to pharmaceutical companies will get hundreds of millions of dollars in federal grants to promote 'women's health.' Just say the Lion was a Christian, then no one would care. Too bad liberals don't get this upset with Christians and women being slaughtered in the Mideast and the fact that Iran is on their way to killing millions of Jews. Imagine how much better the world would be if liberals cared this much about things that actually matter. ============================ Now, there is a lot of speculation at this point, but if this guy turns out to be in the clear, then we should initiate a "crowd fund" to help pay of his legal bills. Hunters can use social media just as well as the libtards. | |||
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What he said.  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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'Unfriend' A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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How do you know they were targeting that particular lion? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I don't, I was merely using that possibility as the worst end of the spectrum. BEST case this "hunter" didn't know stuff any hunter with his apparent experience should know, worst case he saw this lion and found a PH bent enough to get it for him. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Sad state of affairs this country has reached when shooting a lion gets more air time than the butchering of babies and selling body parts for money. The same people that want Doc killed and quartered have no issues at all with quartering a baby and selling the parts. FWIW, Not one person in 10,000 knew who the hell Cecil was before this incident. | |||
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I am no Lion expert but what I have read the chance of getting a crack at a full mane lion is far and in between, therefore to go out and find one has to be suspect at best. Then to go out at night dragging a a carcas to lure an animal to a specific location seems out of the ordinary and once again red flags where up and waving in the wind since what I have seen baits are hung in various locations after spotting indications of a lion's presence. If the dentist is as experienced as it appears he would have a hard time stating he wasn't aware of things being out of the ordinary especially since it appears he has taken several large cats in the past. I bet when the dust settles in addition to the money he put up there was other monies put up as a trophy fee when he got what he was after. These "super hunters" have no limits as to what they will do to bolster their egos. As far as to the hype on this "beloved" lion that is hogwash, it is the method of killing him is at question. I would think the two other people arrested when their heads are put in the vice will give up the dentist as having a lot more involvement in than what he is leading the public to believe NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Of all the crazies responding to the Cecil story, this is the best...... As a long distance telepathic lion whisperer, I have gotten to know Cecil rather well. No, not that rugged fierce and formidable appearing male African lion you saw, but rather the simple tender young human being within. Yes, Cecil had under gone a species orientation. His inner human being had spoken and Cecil realized that he was true humanity trapped in a male lions body. Oh how he longed to speak. But no, all saw him only as a fierce male African lion and not the kindly tender and gentle young lad he really was within. Cecil had Dreams. He hoped to someday become just another illegal alien gone to America. For in America, with Federal funding, he could under go a species change operation and step forth into the world as a young male human being ready for life's many challenges there in New York City. On his own mind you, as a African lion, he had studied accounting to the best of his ability. To be his future calling, his means of supplying himself through work of his own choosing. Not a burden on others. It was his gift, his talent, a decent good accountant trapped in a male African lions body. Someday, Cecil the Dreamer hoped to land a job on Wall Street. With his abilities he believed he could soar in the accounting world to the top. Wall Street accountant extraordinaire. But Cecil had a foreboding, a sense that all would not be well, that his Dreams were not to be realized. And so it was. A world class accountant cut down in his prime with a cross bow arrow and a gunshot. In Africa. A petty trophy, Cecil, to show the egotistical world. But he asked me, before the end, would I convey to the world his post mortem requiem of a simple African Dreamer. And so here it is world, Cecil's own requiem, ---- Lions are accountants too. ---- And on that sad note America, Dreamer, deceased Cecil's very own words, this is Dixie Suzan, telepathic lion whisperer, signing off for now. | |||
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WTF? Where was that posted . Unfortunately , she can breed and vote. | |||
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Why is this person not in a mental facility? LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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I looked at the "trophy" photo of the two guys and the lion and noticed it's not a crossbow, it's a compound bow. No doubt other elements of the "story" will prove inaccurate as well. For example, the dead lion does not look like "Cecil" at all ... the mane is scrawny in comparison. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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