quote:

Do I think they discussed the possibility of taking this particular lion or another mature lion that they could lure out of the park . . . absolutely. If you want to naively believe that someone convicted of hunting a bear in an area he did not have a license for and then lying about it when confronted just accidently walked into a similar situation in another country several years later, that is your prerogative. I tend to be a bit more of a realist.

1000% Spot on Mike !

Would there be this big an issue, had the hunt been 100% legal?

"Unsustainably high quota's handed out to concession holders because of political partners or connections... Just look at once pristine areas like chirisa , chete, sapi Safari areas to name a few, reduced to wide open spaces devoid of the once teeming wildlife"

Can't speak for the other areas but I have observed Chirisa over the years, having hunted there maybe 5 times. My observation is that the problem is more poaching than trophy hunting. In fact I tried a couple of times to get a Grysbok and the quota was never available, I think it was 2 a year. I did witness poisoning of water holes as well as poached elephant carcasses. The Parks rangers have no vehicles to pursue poachers, they rely on the operator to provide transport. Without hunting the poaching would have been 10x worse as the old buffer zone around the safari area has become a heavily settled subsistence farming area. "Meat quota" and "official party celebrations" are also a factor in this area as it's close to population centers.

I found this to be an interesting interpretation on current events.

http://www.breitbart.com/natio...k-lives-dont-matter/

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Would there be this big an issue, had the hunt been 100% legal?

I don't think it would have made any difference - except that the antis have more ammo because of it being illegal.

Can any of you notice how practically every crime reported in the media is totally ignored by the masses, and they are concentrating on this one??

What has modern society come to?

Have we become so shallow as to ignore everything of substance and concentrate on this??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Can any of you notice how practically every crime reported in the media is totally ignored by the masses, and they are concentrating on this one??

What has modern society come to?

Have we become so shallow as to ignore everything of substance and concentrate on this??

But it's a LION!!!! They're so FUZZY and CUTE and NICE and WAY BETTER than PEOPLE and NOTHING else matters except how MAGICAL they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<sarcasm off>

I just received an email bulletin as many of you have, advising that SCI has suspended the membership of the hunter and PH until the investigation is completed.

Obviously, SCI has succumbed to public media pressure and has decided that the controversial game taking makes one GUILTY until PROVEN INNOCENT.

SCI could simply not wait until the investigation is completed and determine is sanctions were appropriate at that time.

I have been a member of SCI for several decades and this really upsets me.

Geoff

SCI doing the suspension is like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Is baiting lions adjacent to the park illegal? I see that being bandied about but don't know anything about Zim baiting rules.

After seeing what I think is most of the info/facts, it appears this one was a real bad decision by both outfitter/PH, and the hunter.

This one's gonna be tough to deal with for sure!

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
I just received an email bulletin as many of you have, advising that SCI has suspended the membership of the hunter and PH until the investigation is completed.

Obviously, SCI has succumbed to public media pressure and has decided that the controversial game taking makes one GUILTY until PROVEN INNOCENT.

SCI could simply not wait until the investigation is completed and determine is sanctions were appropriate at that time.

I have been a member of SCI for several decades and this really upsets me.

Geoff

I doubt they had much choice but to suspend in this instance Geoff. It's horrible for everyone.

Conversation on AR often takes on the attributes of an echo chamber: Our opinions ricochet back and forth while ignoring alarm bells sounding in the outside world. Arguing principle over reason, while brushing off rapidly changing public opinion, places the future of hunting at risk – and the debate about 'Cecil the Lion' is a perfect example.

Exclaiming "if it's legal then it's ethical" certainly satisfies a root desire to defend our sport against those who would deprive of us of it, but carried to an extreme – and this case most certainly qualifies – we may win the battle but lose the war. It's not unlike the imbeciles who insist on openly carrying assault rifles into restaurants and department stores in order to demonstrate the consequence of their 2nd Amendment right: Sure, they have that right ... but at the expense of frightening so many people who would otherwise support gun ownership that they place the very rights they cherish in jeopardy.

We can expect the same unintended consequence in cases involving hunting. For example, it may be legal to set up a remote controlled rifle that can shoot an animal via the internet, but does anyone really want to argue that it's ethical? Personally, I've never shied away from rendering an opinion about hunting that doesn't follow the tenets of 'fair chase' being unethical, and the the non-hunters I've spoken with appreciate a hunter who makes that kind of distinction. And I'm convinced that should we fail to make the distinction between a fair chase hunt versus shooting a well-socialized and collared lion lured out of a game park, our sport will tumble further towards extinction.

All of us would do well to re-read the sober, articulate, and considered posts on this thread by Mike Jines who has distinguished himself in this debate. He is one of the preeminent hunters on AR and there is no stronger advocate for safari hunting; but Mike understands what is at stake here. When cases like this occur, we can either dig in our heels and invite the antis to lure the fence-sitters onto their side, or we can show some backbone and call out those miscreants who bring disrepute to our fraternity.

And just where in the hell was the South African PH in this fiasco? What?! Do you mean to tell me that there was corruption in the hunting industry in Zimbabwe and a South African wasn't involved? What is the world coming to?

Also, I think this Honest Trymore fellow should have his name changed to Shit Forbrains.

I'm curious about the 'carcass", the term the press uses to describe what the client and PH left in the field.

Isn't it the norm to salvage the meat from lion hunts?

While discussing this situation with some less than hunting friendly friends, this seems to be an important point to them.

I'm not even sure that it's required by Zimbabwe law to salvage the meat (like it is here in Alaska, most the time, but not always.)

So do we know if the meat was wasted?

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:


2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so,
35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc .
In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal
was killed etc

so the act of collared cats being shot not being uncommon,
the case of CECIL has blown out of proportion mostly because he was such a high profile'celebrity' cat within the park?

Of course them foolishly trying to destroy the collar rather than return it to researchers, adds fuel to the fire...

I see there is a survey to determine public sentiment if the dentist should be extradited to Zim to face charges.

We will never find out if he is truly guilty, he will throw the PH's under the bus first.

According to some articles I've read, he paid $60,000+ for the hunt. Is this a normal price for lion in Zim?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Help me appreciate why Palmer deserves the benefit of the doubt:

* A hunter with a tremendous amount of international hunting experience, including at least one lion, and who apparently likes to see his name in game record books decides to book another lion hunt.
* He books the hunt on a property that was illegally seized from its owner. Perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* Turns out, there is no quota for lion on the property booked. Perhaps he was ignorant of this fact too.
* The property is adjacent to a National Park known to be home to a number of exceptional male lions. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He and the PH bait the Park boundary. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He shoots a collared lion that is an exceptional lion. Once more, perhaps it was just ignorance.
* He and the PH track the lion for 40 hours and kill it.
* They skin the animal in the field and leave the carcass. Then someone in the party tries to destroy the collar. Well, perhaps he was blissfully unaware of this latter fact too.
* Turns out, the hunter pled guilty seven years ago to illegally killing a bear in a area without quota, moving the bear to an area where there was quota, reporting it killed in the latter area and then lying to investigators looking into the matter. Must just be serendipity.

Sorry, I have a hard time under the circumstances believing this fellow was a blissfully ignorant victim and had no complicity in the matter. Call me a cynic. Give the guy his day in court, but he is not going to get any sympathy from me. He has seriously set back sport hunting at a time when we were already losing the battle.

Thank You Mike.
This entire episode smells bad. I believe Dr. Palmer intentionally set-up a situation in which he THOUGHT he would have what we used to call "plausible deniability".
Unfortunately...it isn't holding up. The good doctor isn't some kind of "lucky-schmuck" who won the lottery and blindly decided to head off to darkest Africa to shoot a lion. Dr. Palmer is a VERY experienced big game hunter, a VERY successful businessman and I find it stretches credibility to accept the story presented as to how this happened, and his "ignorance" of the details involved, not just this once..but twice in his hunting record.
THAT my friends...simply doesn't hold water.
Add to my bad feelings about this guy is the clearly demonstrated FACT that he is an incompetent "Stunt-hunter".
Crossbow....??? WOUNDED animal lost for 40 hours in the bush..???
Pathetic. I find myself wondering how many other animals this clown has shot and lost over the years.
The worst part of all this is that it will make it even harder than it already is for legitimate big game hunters to make the case that our chosen sport...done legally and ethically provides value to large animals that benefits a LOT of people, including advancing the goal of protection and preservation of the game species themselves.

quote:

Have we become so shallow as to ignore everything of substance and concentrate on this??

Unfortunately Saeed, yes we have and I don't see that changing.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Help me appreciate why Palmer deserves the benefit of the doubt:

* A hunter with a tremendous amount of international hunting experience, including at least one lion, and who apparently likes to see his name in game record books decides to book another lion hunt.
* He books the hunt on a property that was illegally seized from its owner. Perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* Turns out, there is no quota for lion on the property booked. Perhaps he was ignorant of this fact too.
* The property is adjacent to a National Park known to be home to a number of exceptional male lions. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He and the PH bait the Park boundary. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He shoots a collared lion that is an exceptional lion. Once more, perhaps it was just ignorance.
* He and the PH track the lion for 40 hours and kill it.
* They skin the animal in the field and leave the carcass. Then someone in the party tries to destroy the collar. Well, perhaps he was blissfully unaware of this latter fact too.
* Turns out, the hunter pled guilty seven years ago to illegally killing a bear in a area without quota, moving the bear to an area where there was quota, reporting it killed in the latter area and then lying to investigators looking into the matter. Must just be serendipity.

Sorry, I have a hard time under the circumstances believing this fellow was a blissfully ignorant victim and had no complicity in the matter. Call me a cynic. Give the guy his day in court, but he is not going to get any sympathy from me. He has seriously set back sport hunting at a time when we were already losing the battle.

Mike:

I generally agree with you. However, I am not ready to form an opinion yet on the matter of whether or not he knew about the quota and the location. I do not disagree. In fact, you may well be right.

I know I have never once checked licenses or quota. I wouldn't know how. Plus I figure if someone is shady enough to conduct an unauthorized hunt, they are shady enough to forge documents. Did the dentist know? I do not know at this point. Then there is the issue of one knowing the boundaries of where they are hunting and who owns it. I think I know but I have no proof. Did the dentist? Time will tell.

There are a lot of very bad things in this matter. This starts with the location. I would have known that location was a potential problem. The prior poaching conviction really looks bad. Finally, I have to wonder just how much the SCI record book and awards play into this?

All in all, it is not good for us. I do understand that some in Zim are happy. The quota transfer will be stopped now.

From Ivan Carter:

CECIL THE LION
I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .
1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period .
2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit.
3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar.
4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution….
5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident.
6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.
My thoughts…
I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

If I understand all this, after Cecil was wounded with the Crossbow they tracked him for 40 hours? Where was he when they finished him off? Did he wonder around the property or did he go back in the park? Also was there a Game Scout with them?

The 40 hour follow up keeps coming to the front of my thoughts on this fiasco......

If "Cecil" was shot and wounded close to the Park boundary, I would have expected him to return to the Park and sought the "safety and comfort" of his pride within that 40hr period?? Unless he was so incapacitated by the wound that he opted to stand his ground in thick cover in which case, why would it take 40 hrs to find and dispatch him?

Also, was "Jericho" his coalition brother or a competing male? The various articles I've read don't make that clear enough.....

We have e mailed the lion research unit hwange to get official numbers /stats on collard lions killed in the past few years. We will post their response in due course.

We agree poaching has affected some areas, but let's face it if you are the concession holder, why would you sit back and watch your animals being poached? Zimbabwe's biggest problem is concessions were previously issued on A 5 yr lease, so operators basically raped the area, assuming one would not be able to retain the lease / hunting rights at the expiration of the lease.. One just has to look at historic quotas and see the trend. An example in the mid to late 1980's chirisa had a quota of 25 buffalo Bulls. Fast forward to the mid 1990's and the chirisa quota for buffalo was over 50 bulls a year, and went as high as 70 odd..

There is a public report produced in 2001/2 by the parliamentary committee set up to investigate the wildlife industry and specifically national parks and it roll as the countries regulatory body.. It's a 100 page document,in the report is mentions chirisa and the unsustainable buffalo quota. It pointed out that in order to take off that many trophy buffalo bulls, it would need a resident buffalo population of in excess of 5500 animals.. Which it clearly did not have. Fast forward 10 yrs on from the report, and why are we then all surprised that the area is on its knee's....

Look back at who had the chirisa concession, and other concessions during that period and who had politically connected partners.. Need we say more. The results speak for themselves .. And these were all members of the so called esteemed Zimbabwe associations. It's the same old story of a few greedy unethical individuals who taint the industry for the majority of other law abiding citizens

Let's see if the Zimbabwe professional hunters and guides association can give us a list of their members who have in the past shot collared lions and elephant. We will e mail them aswell. We have evidence of one of their members who in the past few months also shot a collard lion on the hwange park boundary. All paperwork was in order, and said area had the necessary lion quota. So why all the hype over Cecil, because he had a name?? The photograph we have of this collard lion shot earlier this year, is a FAR BIGGER lion than Cecil, darker, fuller black mane... But because he didn't have a name he didn't make the world news. His hunter however had a permit to kill a lion in the area the hunt was conducted in. He was baited out of the park etc, and also had a research collar. After being shot and seeing he was collard, the collar was returned to the research organization by the professional hunter/safari operator.

The claims of Cecil being a well known wildlife icon to the countries tourism industry.....?? I can guarantee 95% of Zimbabwe residents didn't know who Cecil was until the media got hold of the story.. Sure local safari camps and guides in hwange maybe had him in that category , is there any tourism adverts or pamphlets naming Cecil? We haven't seen anything.. Other than a few video clips shown via the media. Based on the media's perception, he was in every international airport in Zimbabwe , hotel lobby, lodge etc in the country and further afield?

Media reports of Cecil being semi-domesticated couldn't be further from the truth. He was a wild lion collard for research purposes. Living in a national park. Certainly he was used to the tourist vehicles that came to view him, and guides where able to take their clients into close proximity of Cecil . Several bits of footage we have seen of Cecil being literally a few feet away from open safari vehicles with tourists photographing him... I wonder what the media hype would have been if Cecil had of pounced on one of these tourist and killed or injured them...

Unfortunately the media frenzy has caused far reaching damage for all concerned, not to mention to the hunting industry at large. We fully support that if you are caught in breach of the law, you must face prosecution. The media have already made their conviction here, based on emotions,hearsay and scetchy information and not waited for the facts to be presented after being investigated fully.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Not everyone accused of sexual harrassment is guilty, but many settle anyway rather than pay the lawyers. It's standard practice in corporate settings NEVER to be alone with a female subordinate for this reason.

It's not clear whether the hunter knew the hunt was shady. Quota is normally opaque to the client, he relies on what he is told by the PH and/or operator. Even if he inquires, there may be quota today in an area and not tomorrow. The hunter can only be sure of three things: the PH has a licence or not; there is a TR2 (hunting licence) or not; the area is a legal hunting area or not. (The TR2 is not issued at the time of booking, it's normally issued just prior to the hunt, sometimes on the first day of the hunt, so there is no way to check this in advance).

Quota swapping is an old story unfortunately. It's a sin but it's usually not pursued unless the authorities have a hard-on for the operator.

It's not illegal to hunt a cat using a drag bait. It's not clear that the cat was "lured out of the park", we all know animals move back and forth particularly at night. If the drag commenced in the park that's illicit. If they merely dragged the boundary road that's not illegal or even unethical. How many elephant hunts on the Gona boundary have been conducted successfully and with bravo's from this audience? There is a reason that the Safari areas surround the National Parks. The Park is a reservoir and a refuge (at least it's supposed to be). Controlled hunting in the adjacent areas is all sound management practice.

It's not illegal to hunt at night on private land, or to use a light. We all know that. (It is in a Parks' Safari Area). 90% of cats are killed at night over bait with a light.

It's not illegal to use a bow or crossbow on private land, and poachers do not use bows in Zimbabwe even though the press would like you to believe that it's somehow sinister to use one. It's a bit stupid to shoot a lion with a bow or crossbow though, particularly at night.

There may be an issue regarding doing business with the landowner. The farms in the Gwaai conservancy are pretty much all ill-gotten gains, and the landowner is probably on the black list or should be.

Sadly none of this matters. The fact is the 'social media' crowd have gotten a hold of this and the dentist is toast. He may as well retire. Lion hunting may also be toast in both RSA and Zim, as it is in Bots and Zambia, as USF&G people will bow to the baying masses and their political houndsmen.

I am not saying this is all legit and ethical. At least some of it stinks. But from 1000 feet, this is what happens when you confiscate private game farms from good stewards and hand them over to political cronies. I don't hear the 'social media' types working themselves into a frenzy over that ecological disaster.

Bottom lion: get your Lion this season. Sad because from personal observation the lion hunting in Zim is actually better now than it's been for a long time.

Russ,
That is a pretty fair and accurate assessment.

I guess that since we have not heard from the Doctor what is really known?

If there was a Offical Game Scout on this operation then if it were I, I would assume that this was a legal hunt. On all of our hunts in Zimbabwe and other countries in Africa (other than SA) there has always been a Game Scout. Was there one here? If so why if it were not "legal" was it allowed to continue or even take place for that matter?

It appears that Dr. Palmer could afford to hunt lion anywhere especially one of the lovely canned pets of SA.

There is it seems a lot more to this than the twang of the good Doctor's bow string.

Something very strange was afoot from the beginning on this caper and the Gould Doctor maw well be but a pawn on the board. How high does this caper go in Zimbabwe Politics?

I find it difficult to believe this Doctor who could afford any lion hunt orchestrated a golden opportunity to try a Zimbabwe jail cell on for size because he had nothing better to do.

Just a thought.

We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.

It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.

We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...ce10e4b0a13f9d1ad47d


Dentist Who Killed Cecil The Lion Could Be Extradited To Zimbabwe

U.S. Fish and Wildlife said it will assist "in whatever manner requested."


Arin Greenwood
Animal Welfare Editor, The Huffington Post
Posted: 07/29/2015 02:55 PM EDT | Edited: 07/29/2015 07:23 PM EDT

More than 40,000 people have signed a White House petition calling for Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer to be extradited to Zimbabwe to face justice for killing a beloved lion named Cecil.

Legal experts say it could happen.

First, the grisly and disturbing background: Palmer allegedly paid two Zimbabwean men $55,000 for what may have been the illegal killing of the famously black-maned animal.

"Ongoing investigations to date suggest that the killing of the lion was illegal since the land owner was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015. Therefore, all persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges," reads a joint statement released by Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management and the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe.

The landowner and the professional hunter who allegedly lured Cecil out of the Hwange National Park so that Palmer could shoot him with a bow and arrow -- and then track him for 40 more hours before shooting him with a gun -- were in court on Wednesday. The BBC reports that the two were each granted $1,000 bail and face possible sentences of up to 15 years in prison.

A spokesperson for Zimbabwe police told The Associated Press that Palmer is now in the crosshairs.

"We arrested two people, and now we are looking for Palmer in connection with the same case,'' said Charity Charamba.




No news has yet emerged about Zimbabwe requesting Palmer's extradition. But legal observers said that if the request were made, it might well be granted.

A bilateral extradition treaty between the U.S. and Zimbabwe has been in effect since April 2000. The treaty applies to anyone charged with or convicted of "an extraditable offense," which is defined as "one punishable under the laws of both Contracting States by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year or by a more severe penalty."

The idea of being punishable in both countries is called "dual criminality" -- or, in plain language, means that what Palmer did in Zimbabwe would also have to be illegal in the United States, explains Jens David Ohlin, a Cornell law professor who is an expert in international and criminal law. Ohlin thinks that rule "seems pretty easily satisfiable" in this case.

Eric T. Freyfogle, a University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign law professor who specializes in wildlife law, agrees. "The general type of conduct involved -- unlawful poaching of big game -- is certainly a crime in the U.S.," he said.

Freyfogle added that Palmer's alleged conduct could subject him to a number of other federal and state criminal provisions, among them animal cruelty laws and the Lacey Act, which "makes it a federal crime to 'purchase in interstate or foreign commerce' any wildlife taken in violation of any foreign law."

Slate points out that Palmer might also have violated U.S. anti-bribery laws.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said in a statement on Wednesday that the agency "is deeply concerned about the recent killing of Cecil the lion. We are currently gathering facts about the issue and will assist Zimbabwe officials in whatever manner requested."

For his part, Palmer -- who was fined $3,000 and given a year of probation after pleading guilty to illegally killing a black bear outside a permitted zone in 2006 -- said in a statement on Tuesday that he "had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite."

Herbert V. Larson Jr., professor of international law at Tulane, said that he believes Palmer could be extradited, although it's not clear if Zimbabwe would go through with what would likely be a time-consuming and costly process. His advice to Palmer is to hire the best Zimbabwean lawyer he can and go back on his own accord to "plead guilty, and pay a huge fine, and make restitution, and a public apology."

At the moment, Cecil's killer appears to be in hiding, as "dentist hunters" armed with stuffed lions, plus a slew of reporters, are stalking outside his home and office.

Lewis & Clark law professor Daniel Rohlf, an expert in wildlife law, said that he understands the sentiment -- and hopes that Cecil's champions will take this moment to consider how they might fight for wildlife more generally.

"I know people are really fired up about Cecil, but poaching for the illegal wildlife trade does far, far more harm to African wildlife," Rohlf said. "And Republicans in Congress are trying to block new restriction on ivory trade in the U.S."

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Conversation on AR often takes on the attributes of an echo chamber: Our opinions ricochet back and forth while ignoring alarm bells sounding in the outside world. Arguing principle over reason, while brushing off rapidly changing public opinion, places the future of hunting at risk – and the debate about 'Cecil the Lion' is a perfect example.

Exclaiming "if it's legal then it's ethical" certainly satisfies a root desire to defend our sport against those who would deprive of us of it, but carried to an extreme – and this case most certainly qualifies – we may win the battle but lose the war. It's not unlike the imbeciles who insist on openly carrying assault rifles into restaurants and department stores in order to demonstrate the consequence of their 2nd Amendment right: Sure, they have that right ... but at the expense of frightening so many people who would otherwise support gun ownership that they place the very rights they cherish in jeopardy.

We can expect the same unintended consequence in cases involving hunting. For example, it may be legal to set up a remote controlled rifle that can shoot an animal via the internet, but does anyone really want to argue that it's ethical? Personally, I've never shied away from rendering an opinion about hunting that doesn't follow the tenets of 'fair chase' being unethical, and the the non-hunters I've spoken with appreciate a hunter who makes that kind of distinction. And I'm convinced that should we fail to make the distinction between a fair chase hunt versus shooting a well-socialized and collared lion lured out of a game park, our sport will tumble further towards extinction.

All of us would do well to re-read the sober, articulate, and considered posts on this thread by Mike Jines who has distinguished himself in this debate. He is one of the preeminent hunters on AR and there is no stronger advocate for safari hunting; but Mike understands what is at stake here. When cases like this occur, we can either dig in our heels and invite the antis to lure the fence-sitters onto their side, or we can show some backbone and call out those miscreants who bring disrepute to our fraternity.

That was a post I wish I had written. Bravo sir.

http://blogs.mprnews.org/capit...tigate-lion-killing/



McCollum: Investigate lion killing


Tom ScheckTom Scheck July 28, 2015, 5:15 PM 6

Rep. Betty McCollum, D-MN, wants an investigation into whether a Minnesota dentist broke any U.S. laws when he killed Cecil the Lion in Zimbabwe.

“To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty,” McCollum wrote in a statement. “For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys’ Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal.”

The killing of the lion has sparked international outrage. Conservation groups have criticized Dr. Walter James Palmer of Eden Prairie for killing the animal. Authorities in Zimbabwe told the Associated Press that Palmer will face poaching charges.

Palmer issued a statement today saying he regrets killing the lion but believes he secured proper permits and believes the hunt was legal.

The 13-year-old lion named Cecil was a popular attraction in Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe. The lion was killed on July 1 during a guided hunt that cost Palmer about $50,000, according to a report in the Telegraph.

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.

It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.

We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.

Who are "we" and why the use of the pseudonym? Why not explain who "we" are so that "we" can make an informed decision on how much credence to attach to the views you are expressing? I am not trying to be argumentative, you may be the most knowledgeable person on these issues in Zim but I find the whole Oz behind the curtain thing a little odd.

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.

It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.

We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.

Gee it would be great to get that statement in writing!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://blogs.mprnews.org/capit...tigate-lion-killing/



McCollum: Investigate lion killing


Tom ScheckTom Scheck July 28, 2015, 5:15 PM 6

Rep. Betty McCollum, D-MN, wants an investigation into whether a Minnesota dentist broke any U.S. laws when he killed Cecil the Lion in Zimbabwe.

“To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty,” McCollum wrote in a statement. “For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys’ Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal.”

The killing of the lion has sparked international outrage. Conservation groups have criticized Dr. Walter James Palmer of Eden Prairie for killing the animal. Authorities in Zimbabwe told the Associated Press that Palmer will face poaching charges.

Palmer issued a statement today saying he regrets killing the lion but believes he secured proper permits and believes the hunt was legal.

The 13-year-old lion named Cecil was a popular attraction in Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe. The lion was killed on July 1 during a guided hunt that cost Palmer about $50,000, according to a report in the Telegraph.

Another bloody stupid politician who is so ignorant of the facts trying to get her name in the media again!!

Received an e-mail from African Hunter with a link to a very well written article about "Cecil" the lion.
When word first came out I thought it was a legal hunt & people were just upset about the fallout of a famous animal being killed.
Now, it seems laws were broken & that changes everything in my eyes.
Palmer may well be guilty in the whole affair, but the landholder & the ph both knew what they were doing was illegal.
Seems Palmer is getting most of the press and in the end may well deserve it, but IMHO the other 2 don't have leg to stand on in court.
Palmer can claim to have been mislead whether he actually was or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.

It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.

We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.

Gee it would be great to get that statement in writing!!

. . . and in contrast we have:

"A spokesperson for Zimbabwe police told The Associated Press that Palmer is now in the crosshairs.

'We arrested two people, and now we are looking for Palmer in connection with the same case,' said Charity Charamba."

quote:

Originally posted by Don Edwards:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Help me appreciate why Palmer deserves the benefit of the doubt:

* A hunter with a tremendous amount of international hunting experience, including at least one lion, and who apparently likes to see his name in game record books decides to book another lion hunt.
* He books the hunt on a property that was illegally seized from its owner. Perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* Turns out, there is no quota for lion on the property booked. Perhaps he was ignorant of this fact too.
* The property is adjacent to a National Park known to be home to a number of exceptional male lions. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He and the PH bait the Park boundary. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He shoots a collared lion that is an exceptional lion. Once more, perhaps it was just ignorance.
* He and the PH track the lion for 40 hours and kill it.
* They skin the animal in the field and leave the carcass. Then someone in the party tries to destroy the collar. Well, perhaps he was blissfully unaware of this latter fact too.
* Turns out, the hunter pled guilty seven years ago to illegally killing a bear in a area without quota, moving the bear to an area where there was quota, reporting it killed in the latter area and then lying to investigators looking into the matter. Must just be serendipity.

Sorry, I have a hard time under the circumstances believing this fellow was a blissfully ignorant victim and had no complicity in the matter. Call me a cynic. Give the guy his day in court, but he is not going to get any sympathy from me. He has seriously set back sport hunting at a time when we were already losing the battle.

Thank You Mike.
This entire episode smells bad. I believe Dr. Palmer intentionally set-up a situation in which he THOUGHT he would have what we used to call "plausible deniability".
Unfortunately...it isn't holding up. The good doctor isn't some kind of "lucky-schmuck" who won the lottery and blindly decided to head off to darkest Africa to shoot a lion. Dr. Palmer is a VERY experienced big game hunter, a VERY successful businessman and I find it stretches credibility to accept the story presented as to how this happened, and his "ignorance" of the details involved, not just this once..but twice in his hunting record.
THAT my friends...simply doesn't hold water.
Add to my bad feelings about this guy is the clearly demonstrated FACT that he is an incompetent "Stunt-hunter".
Crossbow....??? WOUNDED animal lost for 40 hours in the bush..???
Pathetic. I find myself wondering how many other animals this clown has shot and lost over the years.
The worst part of all this is that it will make it even harder than it already is for legitimate big game hunters to make the case that our chosen sport...done legally and ethically provides value to large animals that benefits a LOT of people, including advancing the goal of protection and preservation of the game species themselves.

I agree with Mike. We are not a court of law, but neither is the general public, and as you can see, they are making conclusions themselves at the speed of the internet.

Waiting for Palmer's day in court before you draw some kind of conclusion about this guy's impact on hunting is like standing on the beach waiting to see how big the tsunami is after an earthquake.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Edwards:
Add to my bad feelings about this guy is the clearly demonstrated FACT that he is an incompetent "Stunt-hunter".
Crossbow....??? WOUNDED animal lost for 40 hours in the bush..???

i've seen it reported he has a felony stemming from the bear incident, lying to federal authorites or some such. perhaps he cannot possess firearms?

The Chinese are loving all of this publicity. They want no American interest in Africa so they can fund more illegal poaching.

SCI should have made a statement that they would remove memberships if courts find them guilty. If no other reason just to show the anti hunting organizations that they will not submit to being bullied. Anti Hunting Organizations seem to be getting more organized and as they grow you will see more militants. It is a matter of time before some of the death threats get carried out.

I actually meet Theo last June. I was legally hunting with another Zimbabwean PH. We stopped at his lodge near Vic Falls to rest and have coffee. Theo was a very nice guy and extremely hospitable. He made a bad decision and he will pay the consequences. Theo, I know you visit this forum. Everyone makes mistakes, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Of course, no one can condone poaching or illegal hunting. It gives us and the sport a "black-eye" that will take a long time to heal.

But, where is the similar outrage over Robert Mugabe's feast for his 91st. birthday where he literally served "Dumbo" ... a baby elephant ... along with crocodile ... and received a fully stuffed lion as one of his birthday presents.

See: http://www.independent.co.uk/n...-party-10077805.html

and

https://www.thedodo.com/mugabe...baby-1019870464.html

Information we have just received from some senior officers at Zimbabwe parks H.Q in Harare . A few points of interest -:

As far as national parks are concerned, they have no issue with the client. He complied like any other hunting client is required to.

Everyone at Harare HQ are intrigued with the "Cecil " hype... Each and everyone of them ask the same questions that 95% of other Zimbabwe citizens are asking.... Who is Cecil? They had never heard of this lion...until news broke on social media. Everyone at main camp national parks station in hwange when asked about Cecil , said "we do not know of this lion, you had better talk to lion researchers maybe they can give you more information"

There was a board meeting today at the HQ which was attended by senior staff and board members. Even in this meeting people where asking "who is Cecil"? With some of the board members who had recently visited hwange saying, if he was as famous as the media have made him out to be, how come we did not get to know of Cecil ..??

The issue of quota transfer came up for discussion. I have it on good authority from several of the board members that this diabolical practice has been stopped with immediate effect.. At last,

It's a pity something like this has to happen to influence basic conservation decisions.