quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.

This has everything to do with poaching... If you break the law your a poacher and you make us look bad. The rest is what ifs and my ethics and yours. The news has had so much wrong in almost every story all the way through. Where it goes from here will be interesting

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.

It has everything to do with poaching. Unfortunately the non/anti hunting crowd has been quite successful in linking hunting and poaching as being one in the same. Do supporters of legal regulated hunting bear in part some responsibility for this?

quote:

Originally posted by Riverduck:
People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.

The media won't do that of course unless the accused party is an anti-American radical.

I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt until he is proven guilty in a reliable court of law. Not by the media or the corrupt system of law in Zim.

quote:

People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
There are plenty on here who could care less if he's actually innocent or not. They just don't like the bad press for their own selfish reasons. They would sacrifice one of their own as long as they get to go hunt what they want. And they tell you it's for the greater good

quote:

Originally posted by Riverduck:
People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.

The media won't do that of course unless the accused party is an anti-American radical.

I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt until he is proven guilty in a reliable court of law. Not by the media or the corrupt system of law in Zim.

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
Steve GI,

This is from page four on the other thread.



Knock-on Infanticide

Dr. Andrew Loveridge, one of the principal researchers on the project, says that “hunting predators on the boundaries of national parks such as Hwange causes significant disturbance and knock-on effects” such as infanticide when new males entered the prides.

Cecil was in coalition with another male lion, Jericho. Between them they had two prides consisting of six lionesses and about a dozen young cubs. Loveridge says, “Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory. This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”

Loveridge states that a more recent study conducted on the socio-spatial behavior of lion population following the perturbation by sport hunting, shows “there is also growing evidence that lion populations that are socially disrupted may be more prone to coming into conflict with human communities on the boundaries of protected areas. This is largely because movement patterns become erratic and lions are more likely to leave the park.”

“These cats are complex”, explains Loveridge, “which is why disturbance of their social system has such far reaching knock-on effects.”

Loveridge also noted that “there were other irregularities in the hunt which are being investigated.” He says such examples include the fact that “in the Gwaai Conservancy no lion hunting quota was issued for 2015” and that the “GPS collar we had fitted on the lion was destroyed by the hunters.”

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.

In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.

In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.

I'm sure they do.. But we can agree this is an extremely tense situation for them. I'm just casting doubt on it all till we learn some real facts. All I'm saying is no parties are to be trusted at this point. Whether it's governments, media, organizations. It's all a mess and it seems everyone is running for the hills trying to save their hides

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33699346


They posted bail in Zimbabwe.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Curious Heym 450/400, what is your take on the situation involving the bear from 2008 where Palmer pled guilty, just an inconvenient coincidence?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.

In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.

I'm sure they do.. But we can agree this is an extremely tense situation for them. I'm just casting doubt on it all till we learn some real facts. All I'm saying is no parties are to be trusted at this point. Whether it's governments, media, organizations. It's all a mess and it seems everyone is running for the hills trying to save their hides

You think the Zim court will unearth the truth?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:

* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license

Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:

* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license

Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.

Sums up my position 100%. I think this argument of legality vs ethics regarding this hunt is misguided, a distraction, and is working against us. If a hunt is illegal, it is unethical. Arguing from the standpoint of "Well, what is your opinion IF it WAS legal, would it be ethical?" is mental masturbation.

Guess what guys, this hunt WASN'T LEGAL! For me, the discussion of ethical or not ends there! Why was there no quota in the area? I don't know but I'd speculate that more than likely:

1) Lion populations in that area are not large enough to sustain limited off-take from a conservation perspective
2) The high likelihood of any lion taken in this area might very well be a park lion that doesn't represent "fair chase" conditions or add to the conservation effort as they already have "protections" within the park structure (meaning loss of habitat to farmers clearing the land for crops isn't going to happen inside the park boundaries for example).

My personal opinion is that we need to stand on the legalities here when confronting the backlash. Facts, not emotion. Legal or Not Legal depending on the existence or lack of a permit is a fact. Ethics of whether or not it was right to shoot this lion IF a permit had been issued, is emotion. Lots of subjectivity in emotion. Much less the case when sticking to the facts!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:

* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license

Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.

Sums up my position 100%. I think this argument of legality vs ethics regarding this hunt is misguided, a distraction, and is working against us. If a hunt is illegal, it is unethical. Arguing from the standpoint of "Well, what is your opinion IF it WAS legal, would it be ethical?" is mental masturbation.

Guess what guys, this hunt WASN'T LEGAL! For me, the discussion of ethical or not ends there! Why was there no quota in the area? I don't know but I'd speculate that more than likely:

1) Lion populations in that area are not large enough to sustain limited off-take from a conservation perspective
2) The high likelihood of any lion taken in this area might very well be a park lion that doesn't represent "fair chase" conditions or add to the conservation effort as they already have "protections" within the park structure (meaning loss of habitat to farmers clearing the land for crops isn't going to happen inside the park boundaries for example).

My personal opinion is that we need to stand on the legalities here when confronting the backlash. Facts, not emotion. Legal or Not Legal depending on the existence or lack of a permit is a fact. Ethics of whether or not it was right to shoot this lion IF a permit had been issued, is emotion. Lots of subjectivity in emotion. Much less the case when sticking to the facts!

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Anyone notice an interesting new member who just joined?

quote:

Originally posted by tom ferry:
I think we need to all stick together as hunters. The news and the liberal media will do everything it can to use this to stop hunting. I can tell you from personal experience that they will distort the facts. I bought an auction hunt for the first mountain lion to be legally hunted in Nebraska. It was being auctioned off by the Nebraska game and parks. when I got it senators ,governors and all the game people were congratulating me because all the money went for mountain lion research . then I walked out and the news media ,the peata people and ect were all over me. then it went nation wide and there were death trheats ,editorials,liberal senators saying bad things,and people trying to run me out of business. Even the game department then backed off the hunt and let them win! People were saying a lot of crap that wasn't true. Look it up, I know I wished the hunting community would have come to my defense. That being said shame on anyone who doesn't defend a fellow hunter till all the fact prove he did something wrong in this case. The fact he has this black bear deal is bad but that in no way proves he did anything wrong in this case.