That is not the lion hunted on the most recent trip to Zim.

This NYP article clearly states the lion pictured is NOT Cecil.

http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/a...babwes-beloved-lion/

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

As a long distance telepathic lion whisperer, I have gotten to know Cecil rather well. No, not that rugged fierce and formidable appearing male African lion you saw, but rather the simple tender young human being within. Yes, Cecil had under gone a species orientation. His inner human being had spoken and Cecil realized that he was true humanity trapped in a male lions body. Oh how he longed to speak. But no, all saw him only as a fierce male African lion and not the kindly tender and gentle young lad he really was within.Cecil had Dreams. He hoped to someday become just another illegal alien gone to America. For in America, with Federal funding, he could under go a species change operation and step forth into the world as a young male human being ready for life's many challenges there in New York City. On his own mind you, as a African lion, he had studied accounting to the best of his ability. To be his future calling, his means of supplying himself through work of his own choosing. Not a burden on others. It was his gift, his talent, a decent good accountant trapped in a male African lions body. Someday, Cecil the Dreamer hoped to land a job on Wall Street. With his abilities he believed he could soar in the accounting world to the top. Wall Street accountant extraordinaire. But Cecil had a foreboding, a sense that all would not be well, that his Dreams were not to be realized. And so it was. A world class accountant cut down in his prime with a cross bow arrow and a gunshot. In Africa. A petty trophy, Cecil, to show the egotistical world.But he asked me, before the end, would I convey to the world his post mortem requiem of a simple African Dreamer. And so here it is world, Cecil's own requiem, ---- Lions are accountants too. ----And on that sad note America, Dreamer, deceased Cecil's very own words, this is Dixie Suzan, telepathic lion whisperer, signing off for now.

Why is this person not in a mental facility?

We are waiting until they get a gun and walk into a theater or school and kill people.

What I notice in most of what I hear up here is the lion was "beheaded." The media is playing this up.
Cal

Does it actually matter who Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation are??

Do you think anyone will put his name out if he is posting information that the government in Zimbabwe does not want to see in public?

I hope they continue to post relevant information regarding hunting in Zimbabwe.

There is an awful lot of things being done by some connected safari companies in Zimbabwe that is certainly not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does it actually matter who Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation are??

Yes. Do you believe everything you read on the Internet or do you consider the source?

This is a 13 year old lion. On his last legs. Amazing he still had a pride and cubs, but his last batch of cubs was doomed anyway.

I don't want to shoot a tame lion and I suspect Dr. Palmer didn't either. The promoters of this scenario were charlatans.

The Obama Administration and the USF&W are using this to advance a pre-ordained plan to stop importation of lion. Don't fool yourself. Don't think the government is your friend.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
The Obama Administration and the USF&W are using this to advance a pre-ordained plan to stop importation of lion. Don't fool yourself. Don't think the government is your friend.

Exactly!

I think they were partially behind the hype!

And do not be surprised if the Obama Admin DOJ brings charges against Palmer. They will come up with something to charge him with, FCPA, Lacey Act, violation of the Treasury restrictions on dealing with prohibited persons, tax fraud, mail or wire fraud, I am confident they will come up with something. He will wish he did take up golf before this is all over.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And do not be surprised if the Obama Admin DOJ brings charges against Palmer. They will come up with something to charge him with, FCPA, Lacey Act, violation of the Treasury restrictions on dealing with prohibited persons, tax fraud, mail or wire fraud, I am confident they will come up with something. He will wish he did take up golf before this is all over.

If they search beyond just the hunting it is scary. They most likely can nail him on other stuff. But anyone who hunts in zim can be subject to a lot of nasty US legal stuff even if one uses the most blue chip outfits. Who the hell knows what goes on in the background in zim.

Nailing the dentist on anything other than hunting related stuff would send a chilling message to the zim and african hunting industry.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And do not be surprised if the Obama Admin DOJ brings charges against Palmer. They will come up with something to charge him with, FCPA, Lacey Act, violation of the Treasury restrictions on dealing with prohibited persons, tax fraud, mail or wire fraud, I am confident they will come up with something. He will wish he did take up golf before this is all over.

I agree. Don't have that much sympathy for this guy...but...it will severely hurt the industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And do not be surprised if the Obama Admin DOJ brings charges against Palmer. They will come up with something to charge him with, FCPA, Lacey Act, violation of the Treasury restrictions on dealing with prohibited persons, tax fraud, mail or wire fraud, I am confident they will come up with something. He will wish he did take up golf before this is all over.

If they search beyond just the hunting it is scary. They most likely can nail him on other stuff. But anyone who hunts in zim can be subject to a lot of nasty US legal stuff even if one uses the most blue chip outfits. Who the hell knows what goes on in the background in zim.

Nailing the dentist on anything other than hunting related stuff would send a chilling message to the zim and african hunting industry.

Mike

Exactly!

Lacey Act won't work I don't believe. They kept the trophy in Zim for use as evidence, so it was not imported into the U.S.

I can't think of a U. S. crime but USF&W are much more ingenious than me.

USFWS indicated they were investigating conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. Maybe based on the contract, payment of the trophy fee, dip and pack or something like that.

I am sorry...did I miss something? What is the source that the USFWS is looking into the charges of the Conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Lacey Act won't work I don't believe. They kept the trophy in Zim for use as evidence, so it was not imported into the U.S. ...

Maybe you should read & interpret this explanation before you decide:

http://www.fws.gov/internation...-laws/lacey-act.html

ITs sounds like that if Palmer procured his illegal lion with the idea/plan to bring it back to the US,
he could be in serious violation of the L_A.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

I can't think of a U. S. crime but USF&W are much more ingenious than me.

Reminds me of a quote from National Treasure.

Agent Sadusky:
"Someone has to go to prison, Ben."

I've got a case where the only claim against my client is conspiracy to violate a statute he cannot personally violate. I think the conspiracy claim fails quickly. Same is true here. He can't be liable for conspiring to violate a criminal statute that he didn't actually violate, even if he wanted to.

http://www.reuters.com/article...nelName=domesticNews


The White House said on Thursday that it will review the public petition to extradite the American dentist who allegedly killed "Cecil," a Zimbabwean lion.



haha, Zim is gonna be pissed if Obama backs them into that corner. An American hunter sentenced to a Zim jail? Talk about killing the hunting industry in Zim!!!!!!!

So, basically some sort of an anonymous source. Believe me, I do not put it past the disingenuous and politically motivated bureaucrats at the USFW to pursue this to harass and make a point. I guess the word, "acquire" leaves the most to interpretation, which is subject to whoever the judge might be. Even so, at this point, it is merely conjecture.

quote:

Reply

This dentist needs to be given a break. If he did what is alleged, then in my opinion he is a "slob" hunter and gives the vegan/fern bar types ammunition against all hunters.

But talk of extradition? Come on, to a corrupt, fourth world country. I know this is just blah, blah from the extremists, but, come on, he killed a big house cat. Instead of talk of extradition, why doesn't PETA and the Human Society gather a posse, roust the dude out of wherever he is hiding and lynch the bastard and be done with it.

To listen to the feigned indignation of the do gooders and what should happen to this guy, you would think that we have finally found the cause of World War II.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does it actually matter who Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation are??

Yes. Do you believe everything you read on the Internet or do you consider the source?

I don't believe much I read on the Internet, but I suspect that much of what these people have posted is actually true.

Would you post anything under your own name if you lived in Zimbabwe, and what you have posted is not very acceptable in certain circles??

I still want to know the truth. Well, something closer than the Zimbabwe media/government promoting their version.

Is it a move to end foreign (non Asian) taking of wildlife?

I still can't believe stories originating from there, but being perpetuated by the media.

Maybe Dr. Palmer will face charges from the U.S. Government. Will they be genuine? We still don't know.

I wonder how many clients who have hunted Zimbabwe in the passed 10-15yrs actually new or were aware some of the operators and professional hunters were in business or did business with SDN listed people.. A lot of smoke and mirrors when it came to who actually held the leases on concessions,Lease holders, operators who have the management / hunting rights etc..And we are talking about long standing members of the operators and hunters associations,as a lot of the posters on this forum have said, when booking a hunt, do your homework.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...ling-Cecil-lion.html


Zimbabwe demands extradition.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Lacey Act won't work I don't believe. They kept the trophy in Zim for use as evidence, so it was not imported into the U.S.

I can't think of a U. S. crime but USF&W are much more ingenious than me.

lavaca,
Far be it from me to argue a legal point with you...but when I was in the thick of the lion uplist debacle we looked into the Lacey Act in dept as USFW was threatening to use it against hunters who killed lions in other countries if they were listed endangered even IF the trophy was left abroad.

Even though it had not been used in that manner before...we concluded that the letter of the law DID leave that door open. Scary stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
I wonder how many clients who have hunted Zimbabwe in the passed 10-15yrs actually new or were aware some of the operators and professional hunters were in business or did business with SDN listed people.. A lot of smoke and mirrors when it came to who actually held the leases on concessions,Lease holders, operators who have the management / hunting rights etc..And we are talking about long standing members of the operators and hunters associations,as a lot of the posters on this forum have said, when booking a hunt, do your homework.

ZWC,
I thought you had mentioned earlier that Zim had no interest in pursuing the tourist hunter in this situation. What is the scoop?

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...ling-Cecil-lion.html


Zimbabwe demands extradition.

If the agreement is still valid 15 years down the line it will be very interesting to see how this saga pans out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6cRl7tv_o8


News conference concerning extradition, Harare,
July 31st.

What is sad and frightening is we as a society have not progressed beyond the days of the Salem Witch trials.

Social Media allows us to live as a pitchfork society once again. So now the President of the United States is vowing justice for Cecil, an aged semi-pet lion none of us had heard of until a few days ago.

Between this and the Confederate battle flag we have the two most pressing issuses of our time.

Think about it.

Jeff

Ledvm..

As they say in Africa ... "Don't pay to much attention to what is said"..... Rather watch what we do.

Of course our minister (only in office for less then 3 weeks.. New kid on the block ) has to make such a statement and be seen to be concerned to appease the media flurry going on...

Our take on this whole debacle, our views on how this scenario most likely played out...

1. Palmer books...is sold a lion hunt in Zimbabwe through bushman safaris / Bronkhorts

2. P/hunter / operator have an agreement with said land occupier on Antoinette for the hunting rights to the property, which is roughly 4500acres in extent, it is an old railway farm... Several other properties ajoin and general location falls in the gwaai conservancy area. It is very close to the hwange park boundary , as is several of the other properties and forestry commission areas.

3.the operator has other areas in the matabeleland north area, one of which has a lion on quota for 2015. However the only property where you will get a lion on bait fairly easily is Antoinette as it is right on the park boundary. Most of these areas only the rail track between Bulawayo and Vic Falls which demarcates the boundary between said areas and hwange national park.

4. Operator thinks, let's bait hunt on Antoinette , we shoot the lion if we get a good male on bait, we then skin the animal, change camps, head back to the other area that does have a lion on quota. People will not know we shot the lion elsewhere...or something along these lines..

5. Palmer arrives for his hunt, if the lion was the main species sought, obviously the hunters start on Antoinette property.. Bait is shot, drag the park boundary , maybe even a caller with lions roaring was used, we don't know, but highly likely - they are hunting on PRIVATE land, so no need to hunt with a parks ranger.

6. Hunting party gets a lion to come onto the property, Palmer can't believe his luck, MGM lion. They shoot at it....and wound the lion. Being so close to the park, the lion heads back into the park.

7. P/hunter and operator, landowner now have egg on their faces, you can't tell the client, sorry chap your lion has gone bad luck... They hv palmers $50k. To show nothing is really amiss... Hunting party/p hunter make a report to main camp, national parks main head quarters for that section of hwange park, "we hv wounded a lion, and it has left our property and has crossed into the park". They are assigned a ranger to accompany them back to where lion crossed back into the park,to follow up the wounded cat. (By law in Zimbabwe reporting of wounded dangerous game needs to be made if possible within 24 hrs. To nearest appropriate authority, in this case national parks.cat is followed up and killed.

8. In the meantime hunter/landowner go into overdrive... What's our best option here, how do we sort this problem... Ok, let's get permission for quota transfer between our properties. This is either denied, or the parks officers at main camp are so on the ball, they check up on the land owners quota for 2015 - bingo, they are busted.... How many days it takes for this to play out is debatable , given that lion was followed up, killed. Trophy is then skinned out, head removed, so you can boil to get the skull.. And the trophy had already be moved from the property.

9. At this point it's pretty plausible Palmer doesn't know any better. He's thinking what a monster lion I just got. Hunts on another of the operators properties and then heads home to the states.thinking I hv just had the best safari etc...

10. Quota transfer doesn't get approved, and the researchers by now see their collard subject not moved much in the past few days.. Other lions killed along the hwange park boundary this year, WITH a proper quota allocation and permit etc, the p/hunter notified the research guys, return the collar etc..its forgotten about a few weeks after... That lion is now a statistic in the data base, location killed,date killed etc lion doesn't have a name, no photo lodge close by who know the lions every move, no controversy . End of the story.

11.in the meantime, research guys or local lodge guides get to hear "Cecil" hunted and killed.... "Did you know property had no quota".... These guys tried to pull a move with "quota transfer"....."collar apparently tried to be destroy".. It gets spread around on social media, and before you know it, it's gone viral.... WORLDWIDE.

12. It's now not something that a fist full of us$ into corruptible officials hands that can make the problem go away... It builds momentum by the hour, and Officials begin to investigate, and well the rest is history as we all know

So from our side, I would say mr Palmer has VERY little chance of being prosecuted in Zimbabwe. At the end of the day, the professional hunter who is guiding the client and whose name appears on the TR2 hunt authority form, is in charge of the hunt. The buck stops with him!! So if Palmer did shoot the lion on instruction from the professional hunter. It would be p/h's word against clients word if Palmer eventually or EVER for that matter was to appear before a Zimbabwe court of law.

My money would be on the hunter & landowner being prosecuted , and not the client. We continue to follow the proceedings.

Interesting watching the clip, most of the seated people are employees at the National parks HQ... With a few reporters in the front row.Hardly a hard hitting press conference. Too little, too late to appease the anti's and the media hype generated so far.

quote:

10. Quota transfer doesn't get approved, and the researchers by now see their collard subject not moved much in the past few days.. Other lions killed along the hwange park boundary this year, WITH a proper quota allocation and permit etc, the p/hunter notified the research guys, return the collar etc..its forgotten about a few weeks after... That lion is now a statistic in the data base, location killed,date killed etc lion doesn't have a name, no photo lodge close by who know the lions every move, no controversy . End of the story.

I am well aware of this lion. Know the operator and PH who took it. I even got first hand accounting of it when that PH was in BVC in May. Even have pics of this lion. "THAT" is why I am interested in how and who helped get this twirled into the frenzy it is. I want to know who took the first bite at the feeding frenzy.

I actually believe the USA gvt might be complicit in twirling this SPIN. Gives legs for a movement for an executive order stopping importation of lion trophies into US.

Remember when it actually happens where you heard it first.

Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation,

Really appreciate the information and how you think it all played out. Thank you!!!

Zimbabwe has dual motivations regarding their stated desire to have Palmer extradited from the US: 1) Turning the tables on the US by trumpeting to the media the villainous nature of an American citizen and the need to impart Zimbabwean justice as a remedy for his crimes; and, 2) deflecting criticism from the world community (led by the antis) by demonstrating outrage and resolve over the death of a well-known and protected lion.

That said, the Zim government is in the position of the dog who eventually catches the car: Now what? They don't actually want to prosecute and imprison Palmer as it would have all manner of undesired consequences, e.g., a backlash by hunters who would no longer feel confident hunting there and the resultant loss of much needed hard currency, external scrutiny of their courts and penal system by the international media, etc. And after all, they have a few Zimbos that they can toss in jail to satisfy domestic pressures.

Too, the US administration may claim that it is considering honoring the request to extradite one of its citizens to a corrupt backwater African country, but it's the last thing Department of State wants to see done. What happens when the world watches an American citizen harshly prosecuted by courts that are bereft of even the trappings of fairness and justice - and that American was handed over by his own government? Bad politics at any time, but especially leading into a presidential campaign.

The likely solution that would serve Zimbabwe and US interests - and ironically those of Dr. Palmer - will be a US prosecution (perhaps a conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act charge) that would satisfy growing domestic and international demand for some form of sanction, give Zimbabwe a face-saving alternative to trying an American citizen in its own courts, and send a political message that the US backs the protection of endangered species.

You can bet that Palmer's legal team is already attempting to broker precisely such a deal, the end result perhaps being a felony conviction, suspended sentence, large fine, and loss of hunting rights on federal lands for life. That would be a gift for all concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Zimbabwe has dual motivations regarding their stated desire to have Palmer extradited from the US: 1) Turning the tables on the US by trumpeting to the media the villainous nature of an American citizen and the need to impart Zimbabwean justice as a remedy for his crimes; and, 2) deflecting criticism from the world community (led by the antis) by demonstrating outrage and resolve over the death of a well-known and protected lion.

That said, the Zim government is in the position of the dog who eventually catches the car: Now what? They don't actually want to prosecute and imprison Palmer as it would have all manner of undesired consequences, e.g., a backlash by hunters who would no longer feel confident hunting there and the resultant loss of much needed hard currency, external scrutiny of their courts and penal system by the international media, etc. And after all, they have a few Zimbos that they can toss in jail to satisfy domestic pressures.

Too, the US administration may claim that it is considering honoring the request to extradite one of its citizens to a corrupt backwater African country, but it's the last thing Department of State wants to see done. What happens when the world watches an American citizen harshly prosecuted by courts that are bereft of even the trappings of fairness and justice - and that American was handed over by his own government? Bad politics at any time, but especially leading into a presidential campaign.

The likely solution that would serve Zimbabwe and US interests - and ironically those of Dr. Palmer - will be a US prosecution (perhaps a conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act charge) that would satisfy growing domestic and international demand for some form of sanction, give Zimbabwe a face-saving alternative to trying an American citizen in its own courts, and send a political message that the US backs the protection of endangered species.

You can bet that Palmer's legal team is already attempting to broker precisely such a deal, the end result perhaps being a felony conviction, suspended sentence, large fine, and loss of hunting rights on federal lands for life. That would be a gift for all concerned.

You may be right. However, if there is a felony conviction in the US, he is done hunting. he can't have firearms. In addition, he would likely lose his ability to practice dentistry.

You hit the nail on the head this is insane

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
What is sad and frightening is we as a society have not progressed beyond the days of the Salem Witch trials.

Social Media allows us to live as a pitchfork society once again. So now the President of the United States is vowing justice for Cecil, an aged semi-pet lion none of us had heard of until a few days ago.

Between this and the Confederate battle flag we have the two most pressing issuses of our time.

Think about it.

Jeff