quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
I'll bet that when facts are relatively clear, it'll be obvious Palmer was an active party to, and possibly the driver of the whole deal and was fully attuned to the apparent illegalities. If so, he'd deserve hard time in my book. I suspect you get a good indicator of his basic character and believability from the black bear charade a few years back...

I just decided that the smear that all hunters get with this essentially takes a REAL lion hunt off my personal bucket list; and that was getting pretty close to the top. Timing could hardly be worse, and this Cecil debacle will become so entwined with the canned lion issue that all hunting (especially African hunting) gets further knocked back with the media frenzy now underway. Check out Blood Lions if you haven't had the pleasure.

I've got a couple of acquaintances who are enthralled with their canned lion trophies and I kind of follow the dated guidance to not say anything if you can't say something nice - may get over that. In any case, I doubt anybody could pay me enough to shoot a canned lion, and if they did, I'd certainly never claim/display/admit it...

Let's hope this blows over, but don't hold your breath.

Good hunting,

Cue bcap......

quote:

Originally posted by FOsteology:
Just goes to show how phfucked up modern day liberals' priorities are...Killing unborn babies (and harvesting their parts, for profit) is fine and dandy.

A freaking cat gets shot and it's such a terrible shame. Human babies are subjected to Mengele levels of depravity and it's no big deal...

Animal rights crazies are nuttier than any religious sect.

And environmentalism is the secular religion of the left, where killing baby humans is good and killing animals is bad.

Finally an intelligent response. Thanks to Fost.
I will not be surprised to find liberals have mined this thread to their benefit; (not to worry, if they do, you'll be deleted).

About the only possible way to do more damage to legal, responsible hunting than this would be to sneak into Kruger and kill an elephant a hundred thousand tourists have pictures of.

This guy's "trophies" will cost a lot of people a great deal, and some of them will still be making excuses for him when it's pretty damned clear he's no hunter, merely a killer who pays for the best "specimen" his money can buy and rules and laws and ethics be damned.

I understand that this lion was collared??

If that is the case, personally, I would not shoot it.

Many hunters shoot animals that have just com3e out of the park - absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But, the case of a collared animal has been discussed here before.

At least no one is bitching that Cecil was a juvenile lion...

Just a little levity.

I was watching a CNN Newsroom Live report from reporter David McKenzie and made the following notes on CNN's report.

1. 13 year old Cecil was lured out of a National Park and killed by Walter Palmer... an avid trophy hunter.

2. Palmer claims he relied on his professional guide's expertise and thought his hunting trip was legal.

3. Renewed calls to change hunting regulations and ban trophy hunting.

4. Lions are taken away from their mothers at a few weeks old and bred just to be killed for trophy hunters who will pay tens of thousands of dollars.

5. Hunting groups say that money can be funneled back into conservation, but lion populations in Africa have plummeted 90%

David McKenzie interviews Iona Dungler, who is the director of Lionsrock sanctuary. He asks, "Should trophy hunting be a crime? She replies, "This is murder. It's really a cold blooded killing of a creature with no defense."

Dungler and other conservationists hope the killing of Cecil will spark change.

If this was seized property, that may end up being his biggest problem.

Well, this has certainly gone global:

http://theaustralianrhinoproje...ng-of-cecil-the-lion

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
2008: Palmer pleads guilty in Federal Court to killing a bear in an area he did not have a license for and lying about it.

2015: Palmer shoots a collared park lion on a seized property adjacent to the National Park where no lion permit had been issued.

This fellow is a reprobate and deserves all the misfortune and scorn that has been and undoubtedly will continue to be directed his way at his own instigation.

Sad but true.

Mike

YUP...pretty much sums it up for me.
Dr. Palmer has established a record for pretty much doing whatever he wants to do, whatever his checkbook allows.
NOT much of a HUNTER in my book.

Cecil, Clarence, whatever its name wasn't, of course, immortal. It would at some stage or other have died. That is something that seems to have been overlooked. However it must be considered.

So at some time inevitably would there not have been a tipping point when the money generated (for the right to render) Cecil dead was worth more to the local economy than than the money generated by Cecil alive?

The mathematics is simple.

1) Did this tw@t shooting Cecil bring in more money to the direct benefit of the local economy than Cecil not being shot? From what I can crudely reckon I don't know. Will people still come to this area to photograph the game, lions included, with this individual animal dead?

2) How many people knew that you could do a photographic game safari in Zimbabwe as well as in, or instead of in, South Africa? Is even some, albeit awful, publicity good publicity? Maybe the Zimbabwe Government are missing a prime once only chance to publicise this reserve...saying "Do still come...it's still open...we still have lions".

3) How much of the tw@t's $50,000 or whatever went direct to the local economy and into how many pockets did it put money and into how many mouths did it put food?

4) What others will benefit form this free publicity? Hunting? Or anti-hunting? has the tw@t in fact given a huge free hit to all those who would oppose hunting.

My opinion is that 1) won't be affected. 2) is a prime once only chance that could give far more than $50,000 worth of publicity if the Zimbabwe Government handled the chance properly. 3) Probably very little directly. Just one or two people's pockets.

The last element 4) is, of course, that in terms of negative publicity this is priceless.

I even saw some comment on Murdoch's UK news programme Sky News from that evening's press reviewers that the tw@t had "murdered" Cecil! "Murdered"! As if the thing were human, as if it had a soul, not an animal but a personage!

You couldn't make it up! "Murdered'!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
That escalated quickly...

Dude you were defending this stupidity...

Jeff

That was in response to the.. Run for your life types on here that think the whole world just came to an end.
Now.. I said if he broke the law then throw the book at him. If he didn't then argue ethics until you're blue in the face. Then the discussion evolved into who knew what and different scenarios of bullshit. So you wanna paint me with that broad of a brush and make it seem like I have no problem with poaching? Ok then your a member of PETA and obviously a anti. Bye DUDE

I know this is sort of a radical viewpoint, but if nobody objects too strenuously, I think I will withhold judgement for a little while yet. It is, however, nice to see how many have finally come around to the belief that everything we see in print or on TV is totally unbiased and 100% factual, and are absolutely certain that their evaluation of this incident is spot on.

Well at least the people that are concerned that it may be come more difficult to cut up unborn babies for spare parts are getting a break from headlines.

According to WildCru, whose collar was apparently on Cecil, he still maintained a large pride. Is that true? ... or was he an older, past-his-prime loner already exiled by a younger male?

I'm not trying to defend what happened. I'm just curious.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/...lls-for-prosecution/



Walter Palmer — the dentist who killed Zimbabwe’s Cecil the lion — faces calls for prosecution

Matthew Weaver, The Guardian MATTHEW WEAVER, THE GUARDIAN

29 JUL 2015 AT 06:31 ET


US uproar over death of protected animal forces Walter Palmer’s practice to close, as hunter and landowner prepare to appear in Zimbabwean court

There are mounting calls for the prosecution of an American dentist who shot dead one of Africa’s most famous lions, as two other men involved in the hunt prepare to appear in court in Zimbabwe on Wednesday.

Walter Palmer, who runs a dental practice in Minnesota and hunts big game in his spare time, is accused of illegally killing Cecil , a protected lion, in Zimbabwe on a $50,000 (£32,000) hunt.

Two men thought to have accompanied Palmer on the hunt, professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst, and Honest Ndlovu, a local landowner, will appear in court in Victoria Falls to face poaching charges.

Cecil, a popular attraction among international visitors to Hwange national park, was lured outside the reserve’s boundaries by bait and killed earlier this month.

“Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt,” the Zimbabwean parks authority said in a statement on Tuesday.

The statement made no mention of Palmer. But the charity Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force said Palmer and Bronkhorst had gone out at night with a spotlight and tied a dead animal to their vehicle to lure Cecil into range.

In a statement to the Guardian, Palmer confirmed he had been in Zimbabwe in early July on a bow-hunting trip. “To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted,” he said.

He is facing angry calls in the US for his prosecution.

Former speaker of the US House of Representatives Newt Gringrich tweeted that Palmer should be jailed.

Betty McCollum, a Republican member of Congress who represents Minnesota, called on the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the Department of Justice to investigate whether the killing violated endangered species laws, according to the local Star Tribune .

Protesters placed animal toys outside Palmer’s River Duff dental practice in Bloomington, a suburb of Minneapolis. The practice was forced to close due to the uproar over the incident. Two protesters staged a recreation of the hunt involving cuddly toys and water pistols.

Safari operators said Cecil, aged about 13, was an “iconic” animal who was recognised by many visitors to Hwange due to his distinctive black mane.

“A lot of people travel long distances coming to Zimbabwe to enjoy our wildlife and obviously the absence of Cecil is a disaster,” Emmanuel Fundira, president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe, told reporters in the capital, Harare.

Palmer’s Twitter and Facebook accounts and website of his dental practice were all closed after being overwhelmed with criticism.


Comedian Ricky Gervais , boxer Lennox Lewis and writer Neil Gaiman were among those expressing disgust.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2015

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
According to WildCru, whose collar was apparently on Cecil, he still maintained a large pride. Is that true? ... or was he an older, past-his-prime loner already exiled by a younger male?

I'm not trying to defend what happened. I'm just curious.

I have the same question. It doesn't seem very likely to me.

The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:

* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license

Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.

I think it is time we review a list of all the anti hunting people,businesses and organizations so that we make sure that they will not be getting our or hunters support in any way or our money.Don't give power to your enemies.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think it is time we review a list of all the anti hunting people,businesses and organizations so that we make sure that they will not be getting our or hunters support in any way or our money.Don't give power to your enemies.

The other side of the coin - one should have no issues with anti hunting groups targeting the professional and financial activities of "trophy hunters" - what happens if other doctors and dentists have the online reviews flooded with anti hunting activist.

Social media makes decimating negative information on trophy hunting very easy.

I am glad ar is not searchable on google.

Mike

Cecil is going to open a can of worms for the hunting industry in zim.

BBC already has a story on how local landowners only get a few dollars for allowing hunting on their land. BBC is asking questions where does the $50K for a lion hunt go?

Looks like open season on Zim Hunting.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
Well at least the people that are concerned that it may be come more difficult to cut up unborn babies for spare parts are getting a break from headlines.

I am beyond understanding how this issue is not on worldwide headlines. Kill, cut up and sell unborn babies for profit...

If God punished Sodom and Gommorah, how much more should we be punished...

Palmer has a smell about him as his previous record speaks volumes.
He had "some " knowledge about the whole event and went along with the idea it could be pulled off.you can be sure about that.
This situation is a lose/lose no matter if it was legal as we hunters will all suffer for this idiots greed.
I truly hope he suffers consequences that will mark him as a bad hunter for the future.
WE ARE NOT ALL LIKE HIM

Thankfully, the news cycles run kinda short these days.
Dr. Palmer and other particularly noisy hunters should purposefully keep a lower profile to minimize damage they create to our sport.
Even locally, there are deer hunters that just can't understand my hunting ele.

It will be interesting to see the email correspondence between the outfitter and Palmer if and when that comes out. I would give good odds that Palmer was far more complicit in this than some want to believe. Once (the bear) may be a mistake; twice (the bear and the lion) is a pattern. This notion that he was a poor, misguided soul is damage control. He and the PH were executing a plan. My guess is that Palmer and the PH are deleting emails faster than Hillary Clinton and destroying hard disks and cell phones faster than Tom Brady.

Steve GI,

This is from page four on the other thread.



Knock-on Infanticide

Dr. Andrew Loveridge, one of the principal researchers on the project, says that “hunting predators on the boundaries of national parks such as Hwange causes significant disturbance and knock-on effects” such as infanticide when new males entered the prides.

Cecil was in coalition with another male lion, Jericho. Between them they had two prides consisting of six lionesses and about a dozen young cubs. Loveridge says, “Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory. This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”

Loveridge states that a more recent study conducted on the socio-spatial behavior of lion population following the perturbation by sport hunting, shows “there is also growing evidence that lion populations that are socially disrupted may be more prone to coming into conflict with human communities on the boundaries of protected areas. This is largely because movement patterns become erratic and lions are more likely to leave the park.”

“These cats are complex”, explains Loveridge, “which is why disturbance of their social system has such far reaching knock-on effects.”

Loveridge also noted that “there were other irregularities in the hunt which are being investigated.” He says such examples include the fact that “in the Gwaai Conservancy no lion hunting quota was issued for 2015” and that the “GPS collar we had fitted on the lion was destroyed by the hunters.”

The 4:00+ mark is priceless.....

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
It will be interesting to see the email correspondence between the outfitter and Palmer if and when that comes out. I would give good odds that Palmer was far more complicit in this than some want to believe. Once (the bear) may be a mistake; twice (the bear and the lion) is a pattern. This notion that he was a poor, misguided soul is damage control. He and the PH were executing a plan. My guess is that Palmer and the PH are deleting emails faster than Hillary Clinton and destroying hard disks and cell phones faster than Tom Brady.

Hello Mike,

Do you really think Palmer sent emails stating how much he would like to hunt a lion in Zimbabwe without a permit? That it would even be better if it was collared? Lured a short distance out of a national park? And to be sure to pick one that was incredibly popular with the photo industry?
I can't believe the "lynch mob" mentality some of you guys have over this.
Palmer's side of the story should be believed unless proven otherwise. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Mike

The shot heard around the world... Every New York news channel and national news outlet ran the story yesterday... A big black eye for every hunter...

quote:

Originally posted by GunsCore:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
It will be interesting to see the email correspondence between the outfitter and Palmer if and when that comes out. I would give good odds that Palmer was far more complicit in this than some want to believe. Once (the bear) may be a mistake; twice (the bear and the lion) is a pattern. This notion that he was a poor, misguided soul is damage control. He and the PH were executing a plan. My guess is that Palmer and the PH are deleting emails faster than Hillary Clinton and destroying hard disks and cell phones faster than Tom Brady.

Hello Mike,

Do you really think Palmer sent emails stating how much he would like to hunt a lion in Zimbabwe without a permit? That it would even be better if it was collared? Lured a short distance out of a national park? And to be sure to pick one that was incredibly popular with the photo industry?
I can't believe the "lynch mob" mentality some of you guys have over this.
Palmer's side of the story should be believed unless proven otherwise. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Mike

Do I think they discussed the possibility of taking this particular lion or another mature lion that they could lure out of the park . . . absolutely. If you want to naively believe that someone convicted of hunting a bear in an area he did not have a license for and then lying about it when confronted just accidently walked into a similar situation in another country several years later, that is your prerogative. I tend to be a bit more of a realist.

Perhaps you should start a legal defense fund for the fellow . . . hunters standing with hunters.

Heck even the Weather Channel was ranting about Cecil this morning....had to calm my wife down and try to explain some of the FACTS ...not just the splattering of feces all over the news....

The hunt was illegal.. That is really the issue here and if you believe anything else all you are arguing is ethics at that point. We have some members sayin the collar is what matters, others saying because it was a known park lion, on and on we go. Some want to believe is was nothing short of an ISS conspiracy and some how Area 51 was involved. In the end it was an illegal hunt and the people responsible will be punished. The rest is ethics and we have 100's of different view points in one thread. As far as the media goes they were never on our side. They run negative hunting stories all the time. This one just happens to be the biggest. So go back to hiding and making sure hunters fly under the radar so the general public tolerates you. What a way to live. Begging for their approval

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
So go back to hiding and making sure hunters fly under the radar so the general public tolerates you. What a way to live. Begging for their approval

That coming from someone that posts using a pseudonym. Is anyone holding you back from starting a website, opening a Facebook page or otherwise publicly taking up the defense of hunting?

I mentioned the collar as a personal preference.

Personally, I would not shoot any animal that I see is wearing a collar.


But, if one takes the complete scheme of things into consideration, I thought the whole idea of a collar is to keep track of where the animal goes.

And if he leaves the safety of the park, people might well shoot him. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What I find so sad is the fact that every idiot who wants to get his few minutes of fame has jumped on the bandwagon in condemning this hunt.

http://www.theguardian.com/wor...t-ban-trophy-hunting


Cecil the lion's death prompts calls to ban trophy hunt imports to US

With African lion not listed on federal endangered list, imports are currently legal – but the death of Cecil, Zimbabwe’s celebrity lion, has driven calls for change

Mahita Gajanan in New York
@mahitagajanan

Tuesday 28 July 2015 18.33 EDT Last modified on Wednesday 29 July 2015 10.03 EDT



Conservationists are calling on the US government to ban the the import of lions killed in trophy hunting, following the death of Cecil, Zimbabwe’s most famous lion, who was allegedly killed by an American dentist this month.

As the African lion is not currently listed as threatened or endangered under the federal Endangered Species Act, it is legal to import lion trophies into the US. The US Fish and Wildlife service proposed listing African lions as threatened under the act last October.

Additionally, the service proposed a rule under section 4(d) of the act, which, if passed, “will establish a permitting mechanism for the importation of sport-hunted lion trophies, provided that the lions originate from countries with a scientifically sound management plan for African lions”, according to a 2014 release from the US Fish and Wildlife Service. The service said sport hunting was not found to be a threat at the time.

Kathleen Garrigan, spokesperson for the conservation group African Wildlife Foundation, said listing the African lion as threatened would not result in “a blanket ban” on importing hunting trophies.

African lions have largely declined in population across the continent, mostly because of habitat loss and conflict with humans. Garrigan said that often, lions kill livestock and local communities retaliate by killing the lion or its pride.

“Adding any more human-induced mortality, through sport hunting – we oppose that,” Garrigan said.

Globally, the African lion is listed as vulnerable, with rapid population declines in both western and eastern Africa.

National animal advocacy non-profit Born Free USA joined a coalition of several organizations petitioning the US Fish and Wildlife Service to list the African lion as threatened. In light of Cecil’s killing, Kate Dylewsky, a program associate with Born Free USA, said the group was waiting to hear whether the African lion would be listed as threatened under the act.

A statement on Born Free USA’s website urged citizens to write the US Fish and Wildlife Service and urge it issue a final rule listing the lion as threatened.

Dylewsky said listing the African lion as endangered or threatened would not affect US citizens who want to go to other countries and hunt. However, hunters usually have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to make these trips, and a ban on bringing home trophies might deter them.


Garrigan said that while the most success will come from listing the African lion as threatened under the act, private companies – especially airlines – could do their part to curb importing hunting trophies.

Earlier this year, Emirates Airlines stopped carrying hunting trophies of elephants, rhinos, lions and tigers on its planes. South African Airways, which previously banned customers from transporting hunting trophies, lifted the embargo on 22 July.

“For many, it’s not worth it because they want to bring home the trophy,” Garrigan said. “The government could take matters into their own hands, but companies have a role to play. If they’re ethically opposed to transporting trophies, they can make a corporate stance against it.”

This whole thing is not a an attack by the public on any illegality of the hunt.It is simply an attack on the fact that an American has the right to hunt lion.If the hunt was illegal then that is for the officials in Zim to deal with and not our business.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
So go back to hiding and making sure hunters fly under the radar so the general public tolerates you. What a way to live. Begging for their approval

That coming from someone that posts using a pseudonym. Is anyone holding you back from starting a website, opening a Facebook page or otherwise publicly taking up the defense of hunting?

As long as everything is nice and quiet so you don't have to worry about whether you can trophy hunt or not. Everything will be just fine. I do my conservation by donating and letting the experts fight and represent me. Much like the NRA. But I definitely don't give a shit if antis like what I do or not. And as far as the general public they go back and forth with a flip of a channel. They will have long forgot about Cecil the lion as soon as the next Cosby story breaks

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What I find so sad is the fact that every idiot who wants to get his few minutes of fame has jumped on the bandwagon in condemning this hunt.

What I find so sad is that we want to argue over a bunch of hypothetical scenarios more than speaking with one voice as hunters to condemn this act of poaching.

Thankfully I've seen DSC make a statement on FB condemning what took place.

All I know is I'm going to Africa for my first safari in Sept. and I'm not taking any trophy photos. Afraid they will show up on the internet and cause me to close my practice.

No one on here likes or agrees with poaching.. I think we all understand that if you break the law you get what you deserve and you are no longer "one of us". Unfortunately it's all the rest that has to tear us apart. Nothing ever changes it doesn't matter if it's on this forum or listening to hunters argue amongst themselves about their way and ethics. I'm tired of it

This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.