quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

I know full well a similar event could happen to me

it probably would if you showed your face in Zim again.

Dickhead owes me a new keyboard....

Now that was funny!

quote:

Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

I know full well a similar event could happen to me

it probably would if you showed your face in Zim again.

Dickhead owes me a new keyboard.... :

Now that was funny!

T I needed that laugh,llamapacker you really do not know when not to speak!

I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot.

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot.

You were told wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot.

Sometimes better to be silent and thought to be a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it.

almostacowboy
You may not be a dumbass, but whoever told you that sure is.

.465 actually has some stuff right. "visualization" is a recognized training technique and it works. My only visits to shrinks were sports psychologists/psychiatrists in college. They recommended visualizing every stroke in a race, start to finish. And visualize how you were going to win. Sounded kindof funky, weird, but I tried it. It does work.

Have applied it to hunting. Most helpful is when you are going into the crud and imagining where it's going to come from. You "visualize" what you would do if he comes from that brushline, or from behind -- you do all this much more quickly than you would examine a whole race.

If nothing else, it gives you something to think about and makes you feel better,

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot.

Sometimes, the above statement is true.
It is also true about most other animals we hunt.

What seperates cape buffalo hunting from hunting other animals is the fact that if something does go wrong. The tables can be turned. And what the consequences of that can be anyone guess.

Just now saw this. Tough break for all concerned and my best wishes for all concerned. Any updates on the condition of the PH and has they possibility of mechanical failure been ruled out? What type of rifle was involved? jorge

quote:

I tripped and fell backwards.

HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF TIMES HAVE WE HEARD THIS STORY?

Can't run from a buff.

Sorry guys, Internet has been down.

Stu is doing well. They have him in a good hospital and they are keeping his wound clean and letting him heal up a bit now. They are planning to do surgery next Tuesday to start fixing his shoulder.

I was able to change my flights home, and I am going to go see him on Sunday in the hospital. Thanks again fro all he well wishes for Stu and the support most have showed to me during this nightmare...

Best to you both Tim...keep us posted

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot.

Sometimes better to be silent and thought to be a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it.

+100

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

...HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF TIMES HAVE WE HEARD THIS STORY?

Can't run from a buff.

You seem to have read the account of this incident much differently than most of the rest of us.

All the best to you both Tim. Speedy recovery to Stu

Tim,
Give Stu all our best wishes and keep us updated please....Best wishes for you as well.

Happy to hear Stu is doing better. Thoughts and prayers are with you guys

Orvar

I wanted to comment on this sad situation, but held off to do some thinking and checking. I do not know either gentleman involved, but I certainly want to wish rapid healing to Mr. Taylor. I have seen Mr. Herald's video of hunting tuskless with Buzz Charlton and if Buzz says he is a good guy I am sure he is.
My qualifications to comment are less than many that have posted. I have been to Zambia three times and to Zimbabwe twice. Shot two cape buffalo with an iron sighted revolver and two tuskless cows, brain shots, with the same gun. Also missed a buffalo in Zambia....how do you do that? Shot one buffalo with a bolt peep equipped Mauser 458 Lott about two months ago in Dande in partnership with PH Rich Schultz. I say in partnership because I made a bad shot, too far forward, on day two and on day four when we caught up with him Rich shot him in the face as he came for us. Rich shot once and I started running forward to get around brush, two trackers and Rich to get at the buffalo. As I was clearing the tracker behind Rich I heard Rich say very calmly, "coming, coming", then another loud noise from his 500 A Square. Clearing Rich I saw the buffalo tipping over....ten yards away. That is the only buffalo charge I have seen.
As far as constructive criticism or commentary I am on the side of those posters who believe in 1) the value of formal, even if self-administered, training on trigger finger control and muzzle control and 2)the value of honest, frank after action reports. Most of us make mistakes. Those of us who declare after making a mistake that they are not to blame because "shit happens", particularly in time of stress and danger, are missing an opportunity to dodge the bullet nest time. After every aircraft crash where injuries are involved there is an extensive inquiry to find out what happened. As other posters have pointed out the same happens when a police shooting goes bad. In an IPSC match if you run with your finger on the trigger or sweep the crowd you are out. I have hunted quail for 50 years and have fallen any number of times. Any hunter should realize they can fall at any time. In the times I have fallen I probably had the safety on, but I know I took my finger far away from the trigger as I was falling and I know the muzzle was not pointing at anyone when I was falling. It is no good saying, well its different when a buffalo charges because that is potentially a lethal situation. So are all of the above and all of us should want to do what we can to minimize the AVOIDABLE dangers while dealing with the unavoidable ones.
One gentleman above denounced those that thought Mr. Herald might have been able to do a little better job of trigger finger and muzzle control by saying that in a dangerous situation demanding immediate action no one could be blamed for what happened to Mr. Taylor and that if anyone had a contrary opinion he was not interested unless it came from someone who had been involved in close jungle warfare and he specifically mentioned that perhaps a "seal" would qualify.
As it happens, I know a Seal that is in the group that killed UBL. These guys, as some of you know, are not just Seals, they are the very best of the Seals, particularly at gunfighting. I asked him, and a friend of mine who served nine years on the streets of New Orleans as a police officer to read the above thread and tell me what they thought of the "shit happens" explanation of the bad outcomee and whether they thought that in times of great danger and stress one would do something new and clever or would revert to the way they had been trained. My police officer friend said that there was no doubt you would do what you had been trained to do...in terms of handling the weapon....and cited the famous case of the police officer killed in a gunfight...revolver days...found with his empties in his left pocket because that is what he did at the range. The Seal said,in part, " I absolutely agree with ... on this topic. Under extreme life or death stress, one defaults to training/practice.
Psychologists say that under extreme duress,complex thought analysis and fine motor dexterity become virtually impossible. Varying individual coping skills aside, one simply defaults to base instinctive response...or reaction. However, a "desired rsponse" in such a situation can be conditioned through repetitive training and/or practice-so that the "correct" response becomes the base instinct. To a significant degree I can attest.
Muzzle discipline and keeping my finger off the trigger until its no shit "go time" is a habit so embedded in my psyche through intense training that it's completely subconscious muscle memory. I literally don't even think about it." End of quotation. When I asked permission to quote him anonymously he said, "Sure!...especially if it might make a positive influence."
My response to him makes the point I think we should all take away from this unfortunate shooting. "...., thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. For forty plus or minus years I have been reading the works of various police and military trainers and therefore you said exactly what I expected you to say. If you train enough on muzzle and trigger finger control then in a stressful situation you don't even have to think about those issues. Not everybody gets to train as much as you and your guys, but all of us should be able to learn to hold off the trigger until it is time. That would have kept this PH from being shot."
I hope no one takes this as beating up on Mr. Herald. As has been observed many times above, we all know he is doing that himself. Those who do not make mistakes do not have to worry about what next, but those of us, me included, who do must try to learn from them and not explain them away as "shit happens". I do. And I bet future PHs walking in front of Mr. Herald will be glad to know that he has done the same.

Happy to have facilitated this discussion by highlighting the fact that shit happens,
and it is no excuse, explanation, or reason not to be prepared. Just the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by cannis latrans:
...I hope no one takes this as beating up on Mr. Herald.....

Seriously?

In your first post?

Yes. Very seriously.

Try as much as we like.
Train as much as we like.

Shit still happens.

Even to those trained by the military.

We do try to learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

BUT, we are humans.
And we have human faults, which no training will ever cure 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Try as much as we like.
Train as much as we like.

Shit still happens.

Even to those trained by the military.

We do try to learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

BUT, we are humans.
And we have human faults, which no training will ever cure 100%.

about the best post on this thread, glad to hear Stu is getting along better, keep your head up Tim.

I agree with Saeed,s post. No one is talking about 100%. Just the easy stuff, the low hanging fruit.

Agree re Saeed's post.

I've been following this thread and first off, although I know neither Tim nor Stu, wish them both recovery from and closure to this incident.

Cannis latrans,
What a well thought-out response, also well articulated. In my humble opinion, the most even-minded and unbiased post of this entire thread. I fail to see how anyone or their actions are personally attacked in your post. A lot of common sense here, one can either choose to apply it or not, but I can't see how doing so could possibly hurt anyone, can't say the same for the reverse.



I have no comments I wish to share regarding the actual incident itself. My comments only pertain to the way this discussion has degenerated into an emotional, rather than rational, one. It has become polarized to the extent that members who I normally read to be knowledgeable and open minded have come across, when viewed objectively, as very close minded. That doesn't fit very well with our stated purpose, on our front page, of freely sharing ideas and experiences among people with similar interests. It's beginning to sound more like "if you don't agree with what the majority thinks, then STFU and go away".

One recurring theme here seems to be that (and I will quote loosely) "if you don't have more DG experience than Mr.X, you haven't 'earned' the right to comment on this incident, so go away or shut up". Boy, that keeps new ideas flowing, doesn't it. Where is the exact criteria for how many head of DG has to be killed to have an opinion on something that we ALL have in common, HUNT and HANDLE FIREARMS? And, who is the bookkeeper? What if you have faced more bears than buffalo...STFU? How about lion but not ele...not allowed to comment? Killed 3 buff but Mr.X shot 6... go away, you can't possibly have a worthwhile opinion? Were a tunnel rat in 'Nam... you're nothing if you're not a SEAL? This is starting to sound like a "big dick" contest. Depending on how close we measure, only one person will ultimately be able to voice an opinion under this criteria.

I also find it hard to comprehend how one or more individuals believing that they could learn something from this incident, and will attempt to do so, constitutes a "stoning" or "hammering" of any other party. That simply indicates intelligence and common sense to me. Not an indictment.

In the end, I think it is foolish to argue the point that nothing you could ever do could even POSSIBLY prevent an incident such as this, especially so if you have experience hunting DG, so "shit happens". Yes, then it probably will, sooner or later.
On the flip side, it is equally foolish to think that, just because you identify and train for the lessons that could be learned here, nothing bad could EVER happen to you. But I'm not too proud to hedge my bets, and recognize where I could do better. No matter how much experience I already have.


I have intentionally kept my quotes loose, so as not to pick on any one or more individuals. I just wanted to point out the way that this thread is looking to one who doesn't have any emotional involvement in either of the affected parties. If you don't like something I have said, please don't attempt to go back through and find out who I might be "quoting". I'm simply pointing out the mood of the thread.

Good day to all, and again a speedy recovery to Tim & Stu.

Sonny Seale

Hate to compliment an A and M graduate, but very well said. Let's keep the testosterone under control.

...epidemic, definitely an epidemic...

Look at Almost a Cowboy's emoticon.
___________________________________________

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:

quote:
Originally posted by almostacowboy:
I've been told hunting cape buffalo is like shooting a steer in a feed lot. cuckoo

Sometimes better to be silent and thought to be a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it.

+100
_______________________________________



http://i629.photobucket.com/al...%202010/davebuff.jpg

This is Almost a Cowboy.. last fall.
Think some of you got your leg pulled.
It's not his only one.

I hope Tim turns this incident into one of his Magnum Hunt Club shows. I am sure we could all benefit from a careful analysis of what went wrong and how to improve the odds of preventing such an accident from happening again.

If he does, I will bet anyone here a $ 100 he won't use the term, "shit happens".

I know there was no video being taken during the accident, but I am sure they could still put something educational together. All hunting shows recreate the stalks, cut, slice, act, and add commentary to the final edit. I am sure they already have lots of footage of the area. They don't need the actual footage of this event.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
I hope Tim turns this incident into one of his Magnum Hunt Club shows. I am sure we could all benefit from a careful analysis of what went wrong and how to improve the odds of preventing such an accident from happening again.

If he does, I will bet anyone here a $ 100 he won't use the term, "shit happens".[/QUOTE

It was my understanding that they were not filming at the time, so no show on this.

Here is an item on muzzle control... and what can happen with Larry Weishuhn.



http://outfittersrating.com/tv...unters_life.php?id=4

I'm one of the guys who have defended Tim pretty vocally. Let me state this for the record. I don't know Tim. I said hello to him once in passing at DSC. That's the only time I've met him in person. I've corresponded with him numerous times through email. That is the extent of my acquaintance with him. But I think he is enough of a professional, and a stand up guy from what I can ascertain, that I give him the benefit of the doubt concerning this incident.

I'm not saying that the incident can't be looked at for improvement. What I objected to, and still do, is the armchair quarterbacking of guys like Hunter54 who really don't know how this type of event can go in the field. I especially objected to his calling Tim out as if to imply that he was lying about the incident when Hunter54 stated "That is your version of what happened" or words to that effect. The fact that Tim came here and reported it shows me that he is a man of character.

For all the guys wanting to bring aviation into the argument, well OK ... let's do! I've been a professional pilot most of my adult life. 14 years with a major airline and 8 years prior to that flying F/A-18's off of aircraft carriers. Yes, anytime there is an aviation accident, a thorough investigation ensues. It is one of the reasons our aviation safety record is so good here in the US.

However, I think there is a dimension to this discussion that is being missed. When looking at aircraft mishaps and the following investigations, the cause is sought and ultimately, blame is assigned. Pilot error such as miss-setting an altitude, improper handling of an engine out, etc. These analogies seem more suited to the event of an AD at the truck or while tracking an animal in the field. In Tim's event, I think it more analogous to compare to a combat mission. With an angry, pissed off buffalo in close quarters, with its head down, looking to hook someone ... yea, I thing that would apply.

With fighter aircraft and the nature of their operation, there are times when even using the most well developed procedures and techniques, the aircraft is lost. For instance, take the example of the aircraft that is shot down over enemy territory. You can do all the investigations you want but what will the conclusion be? That the pilot failed to adequately maneuver the aircraft to avoid being hit by Anti Aircraft Artillery? That is certainly different than forgetting to put the landing gear down!

Yes, better "Tripple A" maneuvering techniques may be developed from studying a shoot down. That doesn't preclude additional aircraft being shot down on future combat missions. The result of a mishap investigation resulting from a combat shoot down is likely to be "Operational Hazards". Is that another term for Shit Happens? You can be the judge on that.

The examples given by competition shooters falling on the range are interesting but they also lack one important aspect to make them relevant to Tim's incident. Falling on the range does not occur due to simultaneously attempting to avoid personal contact with and attempting to shoot to neutralize a very pissed off cape buffalo attempting to take you out. Last time I checked, there is no event centered around live buffalo shooting at close quarters!

The point of all of my comments on this subject is that it appears to me that Tim fell at the moment he was attempting to fire at the buffalo. The PH had already fired. Depending on the severity of the fall, he may not have had any control over what his hands and fingers did at that very moment. Case in point, my fall last month while attempting to recover a Tahr in New Zealand. One moment I was traversing down the hill, and the next, I was seeing sky/ground/sky/ground as I tumbled. In the process, I dislocated 2 fingers and broke another. If I had any control over my fingers in that fall, I would have not dislocated and broken them. Trust me on that one!

Yea, we can all take time to think about what we would do in the same event. But, without being there and having it happen to you personally, even the best of the well trained cannot guarantee the same wouldn't happen to you. To brag otherwise is disingenuous IMO. To pile on Tim when it is obvious that he will carry this around with him for the rest of his life, well ... it doesn't show much class, again IMO. I feel bad for both Tim and Stu and praise God it wasn't worse. The thing that really scares me most about this incident is that however you parse it, I can see how it could happen to me.

There are things that happen to us due to our being human and imperfect. We can strive for perfection, but when someone falls short of that goal, I find it is most often the people who haven't "been there and done that" that are quickest to jump on the downed guy. The guys with experience realize that but for the grace of God, it could have been them. It isn't about having a pecker measuring contest between who has shot the most dangerous game or even any game for that matter. It's about perspective. How often have you heard some gun control nut say that guns kill people and should be banned. That is a statement usually coming from a person who hasn't been around guns and therefore doesn't have the perspective of how most gun owners conduct themselves regarding safety. If you haven't been in that long grass and heard the buff bombshell, nerves and muscles freezing in anticipation of figuring out which way they are going, then have them break into your hunting party, you don't really know how you will react. You might do just the right thing, and then again, you might not. Despite our best efforts, there are events that can only be blamed on "Operational Hazards" and / or human error, especially when we endeavor to participate in dangerous activities. For the guys who claim to be perfect, I'll say this. I'm human. Are you?

Todd, well said.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

I know full well a similar event could happen to me

it probably would if you showed your face in Zim again.

Dickhead owes me a new keyboard.... :

Now that was funny!

T I needed that laugh,llamapacker you really do not know when not to speak!

your right but when he does he removes all doubt about being thought a fool. damn Brad, i blew scotch all over my new desk.

Todd, that was very well written.

As an observer, and somewhat of an outsider on the African forum, I feel a bit like an intruder. However, I'm a hunter and somewhat of a rifle nut for the past 60 years. Hunting bear every year is my favorite sport.

When I hear the advise given to a new bear hunter that all they need for killing bear is their favorite deer rifle, my reaction is somewhat akin to those of you who react to the notion that shooting a Cape buff is nothing more than shooting a big cow in a pasture.

I believe in adequate preparation for my upcoming bear hunt in three weeks, especially because I'm responsible for a young apprentice. I go over every detail possible and play different scenarios in my mind. Believe it or not, bears are dangerous and the one we're after killed a horse two years ago.

But, I also know that "stuff happens" that even a veteran bear hunter didn't count on (Please forgive my analogy but it's the one I'm most familiar with).

3 years ago, I had a veteran Conservation Officer with me as a partner and my young "apprentice". When we were unloading our rifles at the end of a day, when I took the safety off (the only way to unload a CZ - and I don't like that feature) the rifle fired! It was nearly dark and thankfully I had the muzzle pointed at an embankment of earth and gravel just a few feet away in front of me. Everyone, including myself, was completely shocked! The CO asked me "What happened?" "I don't know!", was my reply. I later discovered that when I removed the set feature of my CZ, the trigger became a "hair trigger", but not always.

What I'm saying is that I believe very much in careful preparation of every detail, including training, but it's not possible to be aware of every possible detail or scenario. That's because I'm not God. Accidents DO happen!

I was involved in a potentially life-ending motorcycle accident several years ago that was not my fault... but it happened just the same!

To be a motorcycle rider is a potentially dangerous activity. So is hunting of any kind, especially the pursuit of the DG kind. There's risk involved. I'm not one to use the expression "s..t happens", but I've been around long enough to know that bad things happen despite meticulous preparation and cautions. I lost an eye when I was 6 years old.

My question to the professionals here, i.e, those with special weapons training (police, military, special forces, gun games)is: SHOULD TIM HAVE SIMPLY STOOD THERE AND BE RUN OVER BY A FREIGHT TRAIN? We are talking fractions of a second... far less time that it takes to tell it. When I had the motorcycle accident, I can recall every detail in slow motion, but it all happened in less than 2 seconds!

Tim, God bless you and yours! I, with all here are very happy for Mr. Taylor's prognosis of a full recovery.

It's been well said that this is not the place nor time for lectures and education.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

And a hearty "AMEN!" to Todd's post!

(I was writing while he was posting).

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
I hope Tim turns this incident into one of his Magnum Hunt Club shows. I am sure we could all benefit from a careful analysis of what went wrong and how to improve the odds of preventing such an accident from happening again.

If he does, I will bet anyone here a $ 100 he won't use the term, "shit happens".

I know there was no video being taken during the accident, but I am sure they could still put something educational together. All hunting shows recreate the stalks, cut, slice, act, and add commentary to the final edit. I am sure they already have lots of footage of the area. They don't need the actual footage of this event.

To BigBoreCore: No shit, Sherlock.

To Todd Williams:

Amen from me too, on the words of wisdom and experience. And thank you for your service, from an ex flight surgeon whose dreams of being a fighter pilot ended when he got spectacles as a "teenager."
I wasn't much of a "Ted Williams" in Little League baseball either, because I needed glasses then too, and didn't know it.
Shit happens.
Now I see like Chuck Yeager with my spectacles.

Vision: Hindsight is only 20/20.