quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And I need to apologize to you and Todd about the closet liberal comment. There are some insults that are simply beyond the pale and over the top. Referring to anyone as a liberal or Democrat is clearly over the line and uncalled for under any circumstances. I might as well have said something about your Mommas. My apologies.

Mike,
We are amongst friends!

But...dam...kick my dog or something...just don't call me a Dem!!!

Seriously...we have been arguing for years now...but we are hunting and AR brother!

I know, I realized that was a low blow. Heaven forbid that I might have gone one step further and accused you both of voting for BO. Sheesh, that would have been really reprehensible on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And I need to apologize to you and Todd about the closet liberal comment. There are some insults that are simply beyond the pale and over the top. Referring to anyone as a liberal or Democrat is clearly over the line and uncalled for under any circumstances. I might as well have said something about your Mommas. My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

........
It would be interesting for some of the Ph's to come on here and clarify what the trackers, skinners, camp manager and other staff earn as wages in a day. Maybe that would help determine what an appropriate tip would be - based upon a percentage of what they actually get paid. I suppose it is possible that they don't want us to know what the staff gets paid, although usually the operators and Ph's are truthful and transparent when asked a direct question. I know in my business that I don't want the customers to know my true costs, but then, even though we provide a service, we don't get or expect tips and my employees get paid appropriately. Most of us can do math fairly well and we would start comparing known operating expenses to daily rates. Not that it would change anything - no offense to anyone mind you
A thought (perhaps delusional) and not to start any poo throwing, is that the staff is not getting paid by the operator and is actually getting paid by the client at the end. Surely this could not be the case?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And I need to apologize to you and Todd about the closet liberal comment. There are some insults that are simply beyond the pale and over the top. Referring to anyone as a liberal or Democrat is clearly over the line and uncalled for under any circumstances. I might as well have said something about your Mommas. My apologies.

Hey, after you falsely accused me of being a Blaser owner/shooter/lover/molester/what-have-you, I figured I got off lightly! Not to mention that you mentioned my name along with shoot-a-cow in the same subject line!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

The tips they accrue over 6 months in the field is a tremendous boost to their livelihood and when times are lean as has been over the past 3/4 years in particular due to negative world economy, this impacts on the source of funds, i.e. the hunting client.
A reduction of clients equates to less business for the outfitter, less safaris, less tips.

So yes, tipping is the norm through most of the African continent even though it may be shunned in some parts of the western world; the lifestyles between hemispheres and can compare between day and night.

The client's generosity is therefore greatly appreciated by those that strive to make a safari a success and this success is not attributable to one man alone (outfitter) but his workforce, as in any business.

It goes without saying however that a bonus for their toils is based on the quality and effort of their service and as stated by many, is not mandatory and to be regarded simply as a token of appreciation.

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

The occasional outfitter (few and far between) has already included the tip in his daily rate making for the client to be none the wiser.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

The tips they accrue over 6 months in the field is a tremendous boost to their livelihood and when times are lean as has been over the past 3/4 years in particular due to negative world economy, this impacts on the source of funds, i.e. the hunting client.
A reduction of clients equates to less business for the outfitter, less safaris, less tips.

So yes, tipping is the norm through most of the African continent even though it may be shunned in some parts of the western world; the lifestyles between hemispheres and can compare between day and night.

The client's generosity is therefore greatly appreciated by those that strive to make a safari a success and this success is not attributable to one man alone (outfitter) but his workforce, as in any business.

It goes without saying however that a bonus for their toils is based on the quality and effort of their service and as stated by many, is not mandatory and to be regarded simply as a token of appreciation.

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

The occasional outfitter (few and far between) has already included the tip in his daily rate making for the client to be none the wiser.

If the outfitter is concerned about the livelihood of their employees, they should pay them more.

There is the unstated but implied use of guilt in tipping. You mention the "client's generosity," i.e., if the client doesn't tip he isn't generous. The tip is a "token of appreciation," so if you don't tip you aren't appreciative.

As for the 'tipping guide,' that would incline me to give less of a tip.

The American, wishing to be seen as generous and appreciative leaves a tip; the more generous and appreciative he wishes to appear, the bigger the tip. This morphs into the American being seen as the rich American. Of course with time, the reputation gets around and the public official, i.e., the police officer and the customs officials also wish to receive tips which the rich (I'll call them stupid) Americans give for perceived help. Then the officials begin purposely messing things up so they can then straighten them up and get a tip. Tipping is corrupting especially when puplic officials are tipped which is really a bribe. You aren't respected for being stupid; I've lived a third world country for quite awhile and know.

Not too long ago a garbage collector in New York was fired from his $70,000+ a year job for accepting a $20 tip. I say good on New York.

quote:

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

J$:

Please understand the last sentence.

The client will by then have concluded the hunt and will not have to worry about having his soup spat in or discovering the effects produced by a hairy caterpillar rubbed through his underwear.

And this is one of the problems associated with tipping. Why should a paying customer, and well paying customer in the case of Tanzania where you're from, have to worry about things such as this in the first place? Personally, I don't think one should have to bribe the staff to not screw with you while in camp! Where I see this as a problem is while on the second hunt with an outfit you hunted with previously without leaving a tip at the conclusion.

Also, do you all for a moment think the outfitter is obliged to pay someone for staying home for 6 months? Remember that these individuals cannot ply their trade (skinner, tracker) off season and will most certainly not find much menial paid work in a village.

Not too sure what your point is here fujo. Let me ask a question, do you for a moment think the client is obliged to pay someone for staying home for 6 months? I never thought of tips as being bankroll for the offseason, but if you frame it that way, you're asking the client to pay tips so that the staff gets by in the off season. Scratching my head on that one a bit. See your last comment on this post!


So, while they are employed during those 6 months, they have no expenses while in camp as everything is provided for, from food to medical. Season ends they walk off with a lump sum plus, in most cases, an unspecified bonus if they performed well and an invitation to return the following year.

Wait ... I thought the tips were the incentive to perform well, similar to a bonus. You're saying now that they get incentive pay in the form of tips AND a bonus from the outfitter!

Pole sana if you guys disagree - the same bunch that turn blue in the face at the mention of tipping are quite happy to do so in a restaurant, riding a cab, palming the parking valet, etc. etc. but the crew that has been working at your call for anything up to 21 days, up at 04:00hrs and to bed not earlier than 22:00hrs on a 24/7 are not worthy of a tip?

Don't be so sure of yourself Pal. Do I pay tips for customary things such as dinning in a restaurant or riding in a cab, etc. Yes, but to the contrary of your statement, I'm not "quite happy to do so".

Strange people with strange ways of thinking IMO.

Some have suggested that adding the tips into the daily rate will somehow cause prices to go up? How is that? Let's see, if the daily rate is $1,000 per day, but I also pay $20 per day each for two trackers and $20 per day for the cook, and $40 per day for all of the general help, another $100 per day for the PH in tips, in the end, how is that different than paying $1200 per day in daily rates if quoted outright? I'm paying the same amount either way. It should be up to the outfitter who hires and fires his employees to make sure the staff performs. That's part of the definition of business management. It shouldn't fall on the customer to discipline employees for poor performance by withholding tips. I say it that way because the tip is expected simply for doing ones job. Strange ways of thinking indeed.

quote:

Some have suggested that adding the tips into the daily rate will somehow cause prices to go up? How is that?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Full Roar:

I can only give you an insight on Tanzania.

Camp staff wages (market value) ranges from fixed basic which is approx. $100/month for unskilled labour to $200/250 for a chief cook to $300/400 for a camp manager.

Approx. 75% of this labour force is seasonal so without a job in a hunting camp for 6 months of the year as the hunting season in Tanzania is limited to 6 months.

The remaining 25% are usually employed on a full time basis; theirs will be the job of trophy handling/packing, tent and equipment maintenance in general between one season and the next.

The cook/s mostly free-lance their services in the catering field (private parties, part time in restaurants, etc.) - trackers/skinners/unskilled labourers go back to their villages and do whatever it is that villagers do in their spare time.

The tips they accrue over 6 months in the field is a tremendous boost to their livelihood and when times are lean as has been over the past 3/4 years in particular due to negative world economy, this impacts on the source of funds, i.e. the hunting client.
A reduction of clients equates to less business for the outfitter, less safaris, less tips.

So yes, tipping is the norm through most of the African continent even though it may be shunned in some parts of the western world; the lifestyles between hemispheres and can compare between day and night.

The client's generosity is therefore greatly appreciated by those that strive to make a safari a success and this success is not attributable to one man alone (outfitter) but his workforce, as in any business.

It goes without saying however that a bonus for their toils is based on the quality and effort of their service and as stated by many, is not mandatory and to be regarded simply as a token of appreciation.

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

The occasional outfitter (few and far between) has already included the tip in his daily rate making for the client to be none the wiser.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Full Roar:

I can only give you an insight on Tanzania.

Camp staff wages (market value) ranges from fixed basic which is approx. $100/month for unskilled labour to $200/250 for a chief cook to $300/400 for a camp manager.

Approx. 75% of this labour force is seasonal so without a job in a hunting camp for 6 months of the year as the hunting season in Tanzania is limited to 6 months.

The remaining 25% are usually employed on a full time basis; theirs will be the job of trophy handling/packing, tent and equipment maintenance in general between one season and the next.

The cook/s mostly free-lance their services in the catering field (private parties, part time in restaurants, etc.) - trackers/skinners/unskilled labourers go back to their villages and do whatever it is that villagers do in their spare time.

The tips they accrue over 6 months in the field is a tremendous boost to their livelihood and when times are lean as has been over the past 3/4 years in particular due to negative world economy, this impacts on the source of funds, i.e. the hunting client.
A reduction of clients equates to less business for the outfitter, less safaris, less tips.

So yes, tipping is the norm through most of the African continent even though it may be shunned in some parts of the western world; the lifestyles between hemispheres and can compare between day and night.

The client's generosity is therefore greatly appreciated by those that strive to make a safari a success and this success is not attributable to one man alone (outfitter) but his workforce, as in any business.

It goes without saying however that a bonus for their toils is based on the quality and effort of their service and as stated by many, is not mandatory and to be regarded simply as a token of appreciation.

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

The occasional outfitter (few and far between) has already included the tip in his daily rate making for the client to be none the wiser.

fujotupu - very nice of you to provide some of the answers to the questions, and I appreciate the effort.
I agree, tipping is not mandatory-but I have definatly been pressured to hand out tips, not only in Africa but here in the states. Ever go to a strip club and try to get out without tipping the bitchy cocktail waitress?
Personally, I don't find it anyone's fault that the safari industry has turned cold the last few years - other than your own governments incessant demands for more money from us "Rich" Americans
In addition, I do not think it the traveling sportsman's obligation to unilaterally fund the off season for the camp staff that are seasonal. Yes, I understand that you classify it as our generosity and I agree. However, I need to point out that the staff in hunting camps have what are generally the only jobs and are among the better off individuals in their communities
Some quick math calculations incur some questions.
If a normal un-skilled laborer such as a tracker or skinner earns in the area of $200 per month, that equates to $6 to $8 per day. Does it not seem unrealistic for that individual to expect $10 to $20 per day for tips? A 100% to 200% increase over what the operator is paying him?
In addition lets take a look at daily rates we hunters pay
An average for Zimbabwe would be in the area of $1400 per day. Not sure what Tanzania is, but I understand it is significantly higher
So wages paid from that $1400 Daily Rate, and I round things to make them easier to calculate
PH-$200
Tracker #1 - $10
Tracker #2 - $10
Skinner - $10
Assistant Skinner - $10
Waiters 1 - $10
Waiter 2 - $10
Driver - #10
Game Scout - $10
Maid, Cleaning person - $10
This equates to Less than $300 per day paid by the operator in wages, most of which goes to the PH, leaving $1100 per day for the operator. Now I am aware that the operator has costs associated with continuing a safari operation in the form of overhead, which includes concession costs, vehicles, fuel, food etc. required to operate. So for sake of argument we will say that the daily operating cost - or overhead, is $200 per day for maintenance, food, fuel, booze etc.
This leaves around $900 per day for the operator. Not knowing what concession costs are, but assuming that they could not be more than 1/2 of the remaining margin, this leaves around $450 per day profit for the operator. This does not take into consideration the amount of money the operator makes on trophy fees, which I am of the opinion is probably sufficient to take care of the concession fees. Considering that the camp staff costs the operator less than $100 per day, does it not make sense that the operator could afford to pay his staff a bit better, thus making the sportsman less obligatory to provide the additional compensation in the form of the generosity as you described. I look at this and cannot help but think that the operator has built in the anticipated tip amounts to the employee wages to maximize the operators profit margin.
I am not saying that the operators don't deserve to make a profit, and certainly not stating that they are cutting a fat hog. However, from my observance of the larger operators at the various conventions, they do not seem to be hurting for money. In fact, many of them are travelling sportsman also, spending a helluva lot more money on their personal hunting than I am able
Just quick math and an observation. If I am incorrect in my assumptions or assessment's please feel free to correct me, it will not offend me
My personal opinion is that tips should be based upon wages paid. And in this analysis that certainly makes sense

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Full Roar:

I can only give you an insight on Tanzania.

Camp staff wages (market value) ranges from fixed basic which is approx. $100/month for unskilled labour to $200/250 for a chief cook to $300/400 for a camp manager.

Approx. 75% of this labour force is seasonal so without a job in a hunting camp for 6 months of the year as the hunting season in Tanzania is limited to 6 months.

The remaining 25% are usually employed on a full time basis; theirs will be the job of trophy handling/packing, tent and equipment maintenance in general between one season and the next.

The cook/s mostly free-lance their services in the catering field (private parties, part time in restaurants, etc.) - trackers/skinners/unskilled labourers go back to their villages and do whatever it is that villagers do in their spare time.

The tips they accrue over 6 months in the field is a tremendous boost to their livelihood and when times are lean as has been over the past 3/4 years in particular due to negative world economy, this impacts on the source of funds, i.e. the hunting client.
A reduction of clients equates to less business for the outfitter, less safaris, less tips.

So yes, tipping is the norm through most of the African continent even though it may be shunned in some parts of the western world; the lifestyles between hemispheres and can compare between day and night.

The client's generosity is therefore greatly appreciated by those that strive to make a safari a success and this success is not attributable to one man alone (outfitter) but his workforce, as in any business.

It goes without saying however that a bonus for their toils is based on the quality and effort of their service and as stated by many, is not mandatory and to be regarded simply as a token of appreciation.

Most every camp has what could be referred to as a "tipping guide" and to be used in that very manner. One may then choose to give less, more or nothing at all.

The occasional outfitter (few and far between) has already included the tip in his daily rate making for the client to be none the wiser.

fujotupu - very nice of you to provide some of the answers to the questions, and I appreciate the effort.
I agree, tipping is not mandatory-but I have definatly been pressured to hand out tips, not only in Africa but here in the states. Ever go to a strip club and try to get out without tipping the bitchy cocktail waitress?
Personally, I don't find it anyone's fault that the safari industry has turned cold the last few years - other than your own governments incessant demands for more money from us "Rich" Americans
In addition, I do not think it the traveling sportsman's obligation to unilaterally fund the off season for the camp staff that are seasonal. Yes, I understand that you classify it as our generosity and I agree. However, I need to point out that the staff in hunting camps have what are generally the only jobs and are among the better off individuals in their communities
Some quick math calculations incur some questions.
If a normal un-skilled laborer such as a tracker or skinner earns in the area of $200 per month, that equates to $6 to $8 per day. Does it not seem unrealistic for that individual to expect $10 to $20 per day for tips? A 100% to 200% increase over what the operator is paying him?
In addition lets take a look at daily rates we hunters pay
An average for Zimbabwe would be in the area of $1400 per day. Not sure what Tanzania is, but I understand it is significantly higher
So wages paid from that $1400 Daily Rate, and I round things to make them easier to calculate
PH-$200
Tracker #1 - $10
Tracker #2 - $10
Skinner - $10
Assistant Skinner - $10
Waiters 1 - $10
Waiter 2 - $10
Driver - #10
Game Scout - $10
Maid, Cleaning person - $10
This equates to Less than $300 per day paid by the operator in wages, most of which goes to the PH, leaving $1100 per day for the operator. Now I am aware that the operator has costs associated with continuing a safari operation in the form of overhead, which includes concession costs, vehicles, fuel, food etc. required to operate. So for sake of argument we will say that the daily operating cost - or overhead, is $200 per day for maintenance, food, fuel, booze etc.
This leaves around $900 per day for the operator. Not knowing what concession costs are, but assuming that they could not be more than 1/2 of the remaining margin, this leaves around $450 per day profit for the operator. This does not take into consideration the amount of money the operator makes on trophy fees, which I am of the opinion is probably sufficient to take care of the concession fees. Considering that the camp staff costs the operator less than $100 per day, does it not make sense that the operator could afford to pay his staff a bit better, thus making the sportsman less obligatory to provide the additional compensation in the form of the generosity as you described. I look at this and cannot help but think that the operator has built in the anticipated tip amounts to the employee wages to maximize the operators profit margin.
I am not saying that the operators don't deserve to make a profit, and certainly not stating that they are cutting a fat hog. However, from my observance of the larger operators at the various conventions, they do not seem to be hurting for money. In fact, many of them are travelling sportsman also, spending a helluva lot more money on their personal hunting than I am able
Just quick math and an observation. If I am incorrect in my assumptions or assessment's please feel free to correct me, it will not offend me
My personal opinion is that tips should be based upon wages paid. And in this analysis that certainly makes sense

Your numbers are WAY off. None of these operators are waltzing to the bank.

JEff

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Interesting topic as always:

I've been in camps where I was told that I was giving too much (misunderstanding as I had asked about suggested tips for the staff and the PH told me total numbers for our group and I thought that he meant individually)

I've also been in camps where suggested tips were told me to me without asking on the first day there. I was also told how disappointed the staff were because the last client was European and left them little tips.

I've been in camps where it was procedure to distribute the tips individually with the PH sitting off to the side not involved at all.

I've also been in camps where the PH collects all the tips himself privately and takes care of distribution.

I've had staff mention to me that PHs short them on their tips so I could just give him some at the start of the trip to make sure that he got it.


I've seen owner/operators shocked and delighted at receiving a tip and I've seen hired PHs barely acknowledge a tip even though their tip was 50% over the "suggested amount"


I just wish that I could keep it all straight

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Todd:

Where have you read me saying that a client is obliged to tip his staff?

"The client will by then have concluded the hunt and will not have to worry about having his soup spat in or discovering the effects produced by a hairy caterpillar rubbed through his underwear."

Is not a suggestion that it happens nor will happen nor are tips ever mentioned before or during the hunt.
To the best of my knowledge any discussion concerning tipping is brought up when affairs are being wound up, like the tally of trophy fees, balance on charter, or whatever, hence the above 'facetious' remark.

Hey fujo, you brought up the idea of retribution played against the client, not I. And I clearly stated this would be more of an issue for a returning hunter who had stiffed the staff on tips at the conclusion of the first hunt. Whether or not it would happen, the fact you mentioned it is evidence enough that leaving without tipping isn't satisfactory, regardless of whether or not anything is said to the contrary!

The statement on seasonal hired hands is merely to bring to one's attention that these people have no other outlet for work. It is therefore in their own interest to make the best they can from the limits of the season; they look forward to a handout as would your cabbie, or waiter and the more generous, the wider the smile and no, it was never said that the client was there to bankroll the individual's off-season.

Todd, scratch your head on my last paragraph where my last sentence was directed not where it suits you.

Sorry fujo, but many of your recent posts have left me scratching my head. Starting with the one about moving the black and letting it live out it's days instead of generating a huge sum of cash for conservation by hunting it. But I digress to stay on topic here. YOU stated that the staff walks away at the end of the season with a BONUS from the OUTFITTER as well as tips from the clients. I thought the discussion was centered around the tips being the incentive but now there is a BONUS on top of that, and the purpose you stated is to fund them in the off season? Yep, scratching my head on that one! I don't see funding the staff in the off season to be my issue. I see it as being the employer/outfitter's issue to do what is necessary to lure them back for the subsequent season's hunting. I may or not be back in subsequent seasons to hunt with them. Sorry, their off season isn't my problem.

If tipping the cabbie, waitress and candlestick maker bugs you, why do you do it?

Because it's "expected". Just like the safari staff. I still don't like the system. Didn't say I don't play by the rules.

Now for your closing paragraph:

Would you prefer a defined, non-negotiable daily rate and a contract which expressly states "Strictly No Tipping of the Staff" or the traditional quote?

Hmmm ... let me think about that one for a nanosecond! YES! I'd prefer a non-negotiable daily rate and a contract which expressly states "Strictly No Tipping of the Staff"! YES!!!

Just go to the offered hunts forum and get your answer. Most everyone expects a full breakdown on where their money is going, and quite rightly so.

Feel free to tip if its a part of you and don't if that too is a part of you.

Yeah, well, like I said, I play by the rules, so I do tip. I just don't like the system.

quote:

If it is "expected by the outfitter for you to pay it" it is just a fee. That is plain and simple. That is not rocket science for crying out loud.

quote:

Your numbers are WAY off. None of these operators are waltzing to the bank.

JEff

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
A few things I have learned about tipping.

Never ask your PH or operator for suggestions.
Unlike the old days you can now find that information on the internet.

Don't leave two months wages for a ten day hunt.

Don't discuss tips until you are ready to leave.

Always give them directly to staff.

Decide what you can afford before you go and don't be intimidated by a staff that is twice as big as it needs to be.

Keep in mind that some operators pay their staff with tips and meat which are both provided by you.

quote:

Why don't you tell Buzz you don't want to have a set price for anything on your upcoming hunt in June, and that you'll just pay up at the end for however you perceive the hunt to go?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I tip, based upon my own feelings of whether or not I have had service that has gone above and beyond that level of service which is to be expected in the very first place. Good or great service is expected. That is the minimum level that anyone should expect. Moreover, I put each individual's tips in their own white envelope, with their name on it, and only give it out at the very end of the hunt. I usually try and give them out privately and thank them individually. I don't like the "whole camp shows up for the tip ceremony" that some PHs like to put on. I never ask what is expected as a tip for anyone. That goes back to my first comment. I tip as to how I personally feel the service from that individual was-not a dictation from a chart, sheet or from the mouth of another. I have tipped very well, well, not so well, and not at all, depending on the circumstances. I have been back with some who did not fare well with tips the first time or on repeated hunts. No one ever invited me not to return. Anyone who would threaten to hold a trophy or to not deliver would be met with the force of whatever means I could bring to bear on that individual's license, credentials or credibility. As to the Las Vegas tipping issue that has been brought up here, yes, this written charting suggestion that was posted seems to be a recent phenomenon here in the Entertainment Capital of the World. As to their suggested tipping scale, I tip whatever I feel is right, and ignore their suggestions-which are nothing more than pressuring you to tip between 18-30% no matter the quality of the service that you received. I have also refused to pay tips that were automatically added to my bill, when service was not up to par. Never forget that tipping anyone is totally voluntary, like Mike Jines and others have said. Furthermore, guilt should never become a factor in what you decide to tip anyone, nor should the reaction of those receiving the tip dictate your tip or a supplemental tip, which should be based on your own feelings regarding the level of service that you received. This is just my own opinion and experience.