quote:

Closet liberals, eh? All very nice and neat if that was REALLY the way it is on safari, but Mike you know as well as anyone that those tips are expected. Does the possibility of a even larger tip for exceptional service, exist? Sure, but the "suggested tips" are expected. Like it or not, that's the way it is in today's Africa ... expected, regardless of level of service. "Higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service", you say? How about firing those employees that don't perform and simply provide "mediocre service"? The norm should be exceptional service, especially when hunting with a top operator, for I suggest to you that without continued exceptional service from the employees, the "top operators" will not be "tops" for long! "Eliminate an incentive to perform?, you say? How about providing incentive to perform by linking his continued employment to performance of said job?

Just tell me what I owe them upfront and I'll pay it. If they don't perform, they're the outfitter's employees to sort out and I can choose to return or not. If he chooses to continue employing them in the face of continued sloppy service, I can always move to the next "top" operator. Sorry but I don't see anything "liberal" about paying top dollar up front and expecting "top service" in return. I'd call that insistence on excellence to keep one's job! I do however see an issue with letting a below average worker stay on the payroll with continued poor service provided, just so long as the clients pay him in tips.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tipping is only an expectation because, apparently those that are opposed to tipping do so in spite of their strong convictions to the contrary. For those that are opposed to tipping, might I suggest that if you want to change the expectation, stop tipping.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Mike, don't go off on me please . . .

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

Because if it were added to the daily rate, then there would not be any incentive to earn it as . . . a tip! That is why they call it a "tip"! It is no different in many respects than a bonus at work. A bonus is a way for an employer to acknowledge superior performance over and above an employee's base salary. In the case of a bonus, the employer is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays the bonus. With a tip the client is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays a tip. Talk about the entitlement mentality, adding it into the daily rate is just what the Dems would love to do. Take out any incentive to perform and just add it into the base and make that the new normal.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Mike, don't go off on me please . . .

Okay, just this once . . .

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lane,

I think the reality is that if the safari operators charged a daily fee that allowed him to pay a wage to the staff that included what an average tip might be you'd find two things. One the service wouod drop off and two he'd sell less safaris.

I believe from my experience that the camp staff knows only too well that a good job will in most cases generate a good tip. The lure of the tip instills motivation and could make the difference whether you get that big lion or not.

I also think that with the increases particularly recently in safari costs that adding even more to the advertised price of a hunt has to effect the number of hunts sold.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

Because if it were added to the daily rate, then there would not be any incentive to earn it as . . . a tip! That is why they call it a "tip"! It is no different in many respects than a bonus at work. A bonus is a way for an employer to acknowledge superior performance over and above an employee's base salary. In the case of a bonus, the employer is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays the bonus. With a tip the client is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays a tip. Talk about the entitlement mentality, adding it into the daily rate is just what the Dems would love to do. Take out any incentive to perform and just add it into the base and make that the new normal.

They do not work for me directly MIKE. They work for the outfitter. I employ the outfitter. If someone at my place gives one of my clients poor service...they don't have a job the next day...that is how a Republican handles the situation. Dems love the tipping. That had to be one of the more unthought out responses. And...it is NOT really a tip if it is expected for you to pay it by the outfitter...MIKE. It is just a fee and part of the daily expense...nothing more...nothing less.

A tip...is a gesture of good will that is NOT expected.

Unexpected gesture of goodwill = tip.

Expected expense to pay help's salary = fee.

P.S. In case you have not figured it out...it was part of the normal as long as I have been going to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Mike, don't go off on me please . . .

Okay, just this once . . .

That's exceptionally nice of you considering I have seen much less spark a true diatribe of insults

I don't usually sit around and pound on the AR site much, especially on a Sunday
However, I went to get a physical and shots for a elephant I am trying to do in May, and the doc said I had something going on with my heart and to take it easy for a couple days and see the heart guy on Tuesday. So I am sitting here with nothing else I can do. Wife gets that "look" every time I try to get up and go outside or the garage.
I should have stayed in Law School - less stressful

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
To me tipping is part of the overall safari cost, just like airfare, and I budget for it accordingly. I like that I have some control over the amounts given, and I know for sure that the money is going where I intended it to. I am afraid that if gratuities were built in, there would be too much opportunity for abuse. Heck, I have heard numerous stories of PH’s not getting paid by the outfitter (nobody on AR!) including direct from the horses mouth, can we really expect that the skinner and camp helper are going to reliably see their cut? They would be quite mistrustful too, and I suspect most PH’s prefer to be somewhat removed from the process so as not to be accused of skimming.

I have seen it done all different ways. One approach was payment in lump sum to be split up by the staff after departure, but with a breakdown given to a trusted staff member. In Cameroon, I was asked to sit at a desk which was brought outside my hut. The guys lined up according to their rank, and in a very proper manner they were given their tip. This was exactly the same way that I saw them being paid their regular salary earlier in the hunt by the PH. Mostly it is somewhere between these extremes, and although I am somewhat uncomfortable with the tipping being the “lasting memory” of the trip, I do prefer to look the person in the eye, shake his hand, and thank him for his efforts.

As was said, if built-in, it would soon become the new norm….and it would not take long before somebody feeling good about their hunt (or feeling the need for some hush money!) would slide in a little extra, soon followed by renewed expectations, and the cycle would start all over.

I appreciate the outfitters that are upfront about it and advise what the expectations are, with a range preferred over an exact amount. It is also good to know how many people will be in camp, as it is far easier today to make a half-dozen staff guys plus 2-3 trackers/driver/scout happy, than 20-25 plus camp manager, appys, etc. At a certain point, if the outfitter has that many people employed (which is a good thing!), they need to shelter the hunter from this, who should only be concerned about those who are directly involved in his safari.

To me, it is disingenuous when a booking agent states that “tipping is optional” (one old-timer used to do that all the time here), as I guarantee that this sentiment is not shared by the people on the ground, and as was stated above, is going to create some drama at the end of the hunt. It serves nobody’s best interest, except maybe the person trying to close the sale.

Regarding tipping vs not tipping…I feel that this is dictated by where I am GOING, not where I am from. In Africa, it is the norm, and as such, if I hunt Africa I am going to tip. If tipping is not commonplace in other parts of the world if/when I go there, or built-in, I will respect that too.

And to answer the original question there are times where I could see not tipping the “owner”, recognizing that this could mean different things….the owner of the hunting company is one thing, the owner of the property another. For example, I hunted with a German and later a French owned outfit, both of who operated in Africa more out of passion than necessity. They both stated that they do not accept tips for the hunts that they conduct.

However, for the majority of instances I believe it is totally proper to tip, as while the PH might have a vested interest in the company, he likely would not be in the field unless he needed to (at least more than a few hunts a year), with the tips making up a meaningful percentage of his overall earnings. I have been fortunate to hunt with guys like Buzz Charlton, Martin Pieters and Peter Chipman, and I tipped all to the best of my abilities.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

Man...note to self...don't hire Mike to manage employees at a new business...at least if you want to make a profit. He'll have all of the clients tipping the employees to get them to do their jobs that they get paid for to begin with. They will all put little jars out with their names on them.

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Then DON'T tip. Sheesh. Pretty simple actually. Is anyone forcing you to tip?

To not tip is off course not an option. When you in camp are explained that the majority of the staff salary is tipps, you understand that this is a system for payment rather than a sign of appriciation. I am not arguing against this system, it is put into work by US hunters and US hunters is the majority of clients in the safari industry. It is just a difficult system to grasp for a Swedish hunter that has grown up in a culture without tipps. If tipps was just some % of the staffs salarys it would be something different. But when (again, I have only been to one safari it might be different on other outfits) the tipps is doubble-tripple the salary it is mandatory to tip. To be honest, I wish the fantastic people I meet in the CMS camp to have many vealthy American hunters with big tipping abilities as clients in the future

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:

Then DON'T tip. Sheesh. Pretty simple actually. Is anyone forcing you to tip?[/QUOTE]

I am having a difficult time understanding why the above quote can not be understood. It is pretty straight forward and simple in my opinion.

The "Tipping" issue in Africa at least, again in my opinion, revolves around hunters wanting to book a safari are not really taking time to research the various hunting operations policy on tipping. If the hunter trying to book a hunt does not want to be pressured into tipping every member of the safari staff, simply find a different operator.

As a guide, I appreciate ANY form of gratuity I receive from a client. Money is great, but for me so is a 12 pack of my favorite beer, because that is money I will not have to be spending out of my pocket.

Yes, Americans are the guilty party, they have learned over a couple of decades or so here at home, a night on the town with family and friends goes a lot better if a few palms are greased.

That concept has trickled down into all areas of human life here in the states.

Tip or no tip, as a hunter, I know when I have done the best job I can do, and if I am satisfied with the effort I put forth, that is the main thing I try to achieve, a tip from a client, regardless of what it is, merely means that the client actually appreciated the amount of work I did for them and it was given of their own Free Will, and was not something that was expected or mandatory.

An aspect of mandatory of expected tipping amounts can have just as negative effect as not tipping. If the staff knows going in that they are going to get tipped regardless of the job they do, they are not going to bust their ass, they know they are going to get a tip if they do nothing more than set around with their thumb in their ass and their mind in Arkansas.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Closet liberals, eh? All very nice and neat if that was REALLY the way it is on safari, but Mike you know as well as anyone that those tips are expected. Does the possibility of a even larger tip for exceptional service, exist? Sure, but the "suggested tips" are expected. Like it or not, that's the way it is in today's Africa ... expected, regardless of level of service. "Higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service", you say? How about firing those employees that don't perform and simply provide "mediocre service"? The norm should be exceptional service, especially when hunting with a top operator, for I suggest to you that without continued exceptional service from the employees, the "top operators" will not be "tops" for long! "Eliminate an incentive to perform?, you say? How about providing incentive to perform by linking his continued employment to performance of said job?

Just tell me what I owe them upfront and I'll pay it. If they don't perform, they're the outfitter's employees to sort out and I can choose to return or not. If he chooses to continue employing them in the face of continued sloppy service, I can always move to the next "top" operator. Sorry but I don't see anything "liberal" about paying top dollar up front and expecting "top service" in return. I'd call that insistence on excellence to keep one's job! I do however see an issue with letting a below average worker stay on the payroll with continued poor service provided, just so long as the clients pay him in tips.

Most excellent analysis!
If my employees don't offer excellent service in their day to day job performance, they are not employees of mine very long. And trust me, my clients would move along to the next guy if I did not demand the high quality service and customer satisfaction that I do. Incentive to perform is you get to keep your job, benefits etc.

Mr. Jines, being said attorney, I would guess my hat has never received a tip for his services as I have never also, dictated by our professions. fyi-hat aint worth shit.

Not to slam MJines, as I have never met him and seems like a nice enough guy, but- it seems to me his stance more directly reflects the Democratic Platform of entitlements, expecting to be handed more than what you have earned - just an observation and secondary view Mike, don't go off on me please

its a touchy subject for sure. And in the bus. its expected
I don't agree with Mark Young when he stated " If you have not saved enough money to tip at the level appropriate for the service you have received you need to save longer"
Some of us don't have that option or luxury. We have what we have when we have it
Also, I can sympathize with Todd on his hunt in the US. I went on a day trip with a float guide in Montana. The rate was $400 per day. Feeling generous, even though the fly fishing was not all that great, I handed the guy a $100 tip and could see immediately the disappointment on his face. I still to this day don't quite get it. Being a guide in Wyoming when I was younger, we never expected or looked for a tip. I'm sure I got a couple, just don't remember any. If we did it was not much, but we got paid to do a job

I want to go back and have some guys on here define REASONABLE.
REASONABLE
Is it a percentage of the daily wages?
Is it a percentage of the total safari cost?
Is it some other abstract measurement?

Perhaps someone should conduct a poll

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

Because if it were added to the daily rate, then there would not be any incentive to earn it as . . . a tip! That is why they call it a "tip"! It is no different in many respects than a bonus at work. A bonus is a way for an employer to acknowledge superior performance over and above an employee's base salary. In the case of a bonus, the employer is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays the bonus. With a tip the client is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays a tip. Talk about the entitlement mentality, adding it into the daily rate is just what the Dems would love to do. Take out any incentive to perform and just add it into the base and make that the new normal.

They do not work for me directly MIKE. They work for the outfitter. I employ the outfitter. If someone at my place gives one of my clients poor service...they don't have a job the next day...that is how a Republican handles the situation. Dems love the tipping. That had to be one of the more unthought out responses. And...it is NOT really a tip if it is expected for you to pay it by the outfitter...MIKE. It is just a fee and part of the daily expense...nothing more...nothing less.

A tip...is a gesture of good will that is NOT expected.

Unexpected gesture of goodwill = tip.

Expected expense to pay help's salary = fee.

P.S. In case you have not figured it out...it was part of the normal as long as I have been going to Africa.

Lane, just talking louder and in more strident tones does not and will not make you right. Relax. I would suggest going out to eat and not leaving a tip, perhaps you will feel better.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

Man...note to self...don't hire Mike to manage employees at a new business...at least if you want to make a profit. He'll have all of the clients tipping the employees to get them to do their jobs that they get paid for to begin with. They will all put little jars out with their names on them.

Look at any high performing organization today and what will you find . . . a salary structure based heavily on incentive compensation. Look at any mediocre performing organization today, like our education system, and what will you find . . . a salary structure devoid of incentives. Want to make a profit, the verdict is in, incentivize your employees to perform.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

Because if it were added to the daily rate, then there would not be any incentive to earn it as . . . a tip! That is why they call it a "tip"! It is no different in many respects than a bonus at work. A bonus is a way for an employer to acknowledge superior performance over and above an employee's base salary. In the case of a bonus, the employer is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays the bonus. With a tip the client is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays a tip. Talk about the entitlement mentality, adding it into the daily rate is just what the Dems would love to do. Take out any incentive to perform and just add it into the base and make that the new normal.

They do not work for me directly MIKE. They work for the outfitter. I employ the outfitter. If someone at my place gives one of my clients poor service...they don't have a job the next day...that is how a Republican handles the situation. Dems love the tipping. That had to be one of the more unthought out responses. And...it is NOT really a tip if it is expected for you to pay it by the outfitter...MIKE. It is just a fee and part of the daily expense...nothing more...nothing less.

A tip...is a gesture of good will that is NOT expected.

Unexpected gesture of goodwill = tip.

Expected expense to pay help's salary = fee.

P.S. In case you have not figured it out...it was part of the normal as long as I have been going to Africa.

Lane, just talking louder and in more strident tones does not and will not make you right. Relax. I would suggest going out to eat and not leaving a tip, perhaps you will feel better.

Mike,
I am 1000% sure I am right. I have been running a business iwith employees in a service industry making it through recessinons for a while. Despite the Dems trying to take all of my profit.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

That is a totally different thing basing your employes' salaries on incentive based scales. All of my associate Dr.s work on encentive based salaries...based on production. But I don't want the clientel to feel like they have to cough up extra to get good service.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

That is a totally different thing basing your employes' salaries on incentive based scales. All of my associate Dr.s work on encentive based salaries...based on production. But I don't want the clientel to feel like they have to cough up extra to get good service.

Not different at all. Want to incent performance, pay for performance. Whether that is a bonus or a tip, is irrelevant.

It does sort of concern me though to hear about doctors/vets being on incentive based salaries tied to production. I thought it was all about a quality experience?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If it is "expected by the outfitter for you to pay it" it is just a fee. That is plain and simple. That is not rocket science for crying out loud.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If it is "expected by the outfitter for you to pay it" it is just a fee. That is plain and simple. That is not rocket science for crying out loud.

This is becoming tedious and boring. Just because the outfitter expects something does not make it so. I have refused to give tips on hunts despite recommendations to the contrary by the outfitter. Who says you have to do what the outfitter expects?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If it is "expected by the outfitter for you to pay it" it is just a fee. That is plain and simple. That is not rocket science for crying out loud.

This is becoming tedious and boring. Just because the outfitter expects something does not make it so. I have refused to give tips on hunts despite recommendations to the contrary by the outfitter. Who says you have to do what the outfitter expects?

Maybe you want to go back and hunt again...you have to pay the "fee" to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

Man...note to self...don't hire Mike to manage employees at a new business...at least if you want to make a profit. He'll have all of the clients tipping the employees to get them to do their jobs that they get paid for to begin with. They will all put little jars out with their names on them.

Look at any high performing organization today and what will you find . . . a salary structure based heavily on incentive compensation. Look at any mediocre performing organization today, like our education system, and what will you find . . . a salary structure devoid of incentives. Want to make a profit, the verdict is in, incentivize your employees to perform.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If it is "expected by the outfitter for you to pay it" it is just a fee. That is plain and simple. That is not rocket science for crying out loud.

This is becoming tedious and boring. Just because the outfitter expects something does not make it so. I have refused to give tips on hunts despite recommendations to the contrary by the outfitter. Who says you have to do what the outfitter expects?

Maybe you want to go back and hunt again...you have to pay the "fee" to do so.

That is just flat wrong. I have hunted with the same outfitter for a good while now in Africa. I have left tips at recommended levels, left tips at less than recommended levels and left no tips in some cases. I have been back repeatedly. Just because some apparently choose to blindly follow recommendations does not mean that everyone does . . . and it certainly does not mean that you have to "leave a tip" to go back and hunt with someone.

Cal, in answer to your question, I tip each person personally and I do not tell the outfitter what tip I leave or do not leave with each person.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No matter how many times you say it Lane, it will not change the fact that while you might pay based on an expectation, others do not. For those of us in the latter camp, it is a tip that we chose to give, withhold or vary in amount as we see fit based on performance.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And I need to apologize to you and Todd about the closet liberal comment. There are some insults that are simply beyond the pale and over the top. Referring to anyone as a liberal or Democrat is clearly over the line and uncalled for under any circumstances. I might as well have said something about your Mommas. My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Ok Comrades
Enough of the banter, enough of the mindless opinions.

Get to the relevant questions
Lets take a country a lot of us are familiar with as a base line, Zimbabwe
I have asked these questions previously, perhaps they escaped everyone's attention whilst they were bickering back and forth about whether it is a tip or a fee

So ....questions......answers appropriate to parliamentary or court room procedure, short and sweet. Feel free to copy and paste

What is the daily earnings paid by the operator to the individual indigenous camp staff, if any

Are the tips to the indigenous camp staff actually payment for labor that the operator has pressed upon clients

Is a reasonable appropriate tip based upon daily wages

Is a reasonable appropriate tip based upon the entire safari cost

Is a reasonable appropriate tip based upon something else

Is J. Lane Easter the Easter Bunny

Does Mike Jines wear boxers or briefs and what color and direction are the racing stripes?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And I need to apologize to you and Todd about the closet liberal comment. There are some insults that are simply beyond the pale and over the top. Referring to anyone as a liberal or Democrat is clearly over the line and uncalled for under any circumstances. I might as well have said something about your Mommas. My apologies.

Mike,
We are amongst friends!

But...dam...kick my dog or something...just don't call me a Dem!!!

Seriously...we have been arguing for years now...but we are hunting and AR brother!