The tipping system is something the US hunters has put into work in Africa. It clearly affects the salaries to the safari staff. If a tracker gets $200/month and recieve $400-600/month in tipp, it is clear that they work for tips rather than a salary.

For an "outsider" like me (Swedish hunters are in great minority in Africa as clients in this industry) it is a totaly new experience. Here there is no tipping whatsoever in the domestic hunting industry (except when you have American clients) as well in other business, tipping is not in system here.

The tipping system is like the European sliding scale for trophy fees. As long as hunters pays the sliding scale for the trophys, the system will continue. As long as hunters tipps in Africa the safari staff will work for tipps rather than salaries.

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

It is my understanding the camp jobs be they tracker, skinner, cook, etc they are some of the most coveted and best paying jobs. It just can't be for the possibility of a big tip.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
It is my understanding the camp jobs be they tracker, skinner, cook, etc they are some of the most coveted and best paying jobs. It just can't be for the possibility of a big tip.

Really, seriously? Have you ever been to your tracker's home? Your driver's home? Your game scout's home? I have. Their jobs, relatively speaking, may be viewed as "coveted and best paying" compared to trying to scratch out a living farming. But believe me their standard of living is such that they get far more out of whatever I might leave as a tip for working hard for me from well before dawn to well after dark every day for two or three weeks than I get out of that money. I am highly confident that they depend on tips and work hard to earn those tips. If someone chooses not to tip fine. But to try and suggest that tips are just lagniappe and that they do not work for and depend on those tips to maintain a modest, at best, standard of living is off the mark.

One thing I noticed here too, was several references to tipping the Govt Game scout. Some seemed really off-put by that as well?

Fact is, I have both tipped them handsomely and tipped them nothing at all (and I rarely do that to anyone). I've had plenty of them that have worked every bit as hard on the safari as did the trackers and PH. Twice I can actually remember the game scout being the best tracker of them all. So if he's working hard for me, he gets rewarded just like the rest of em do.

Please folks - don't take offense to this, as I know its gonna sound sexist. But it was not unusual in Botswana to have a women game scout, and I've had one in TZ too. They were completely worthless - completely! Especially the one in TZ - half the time she never left camp? Now, it didn't really bother us any - but it bothered me when it came time for the tip she was definitely expecting!!!!

I always feel like I tip good, but I will withhold the tip if the effort truly was bad.

quote:

Originally posted by tarbe:
Ok, back to regularly scheduled programming....

So I am planning my first PG safari. 10 days, up to 10 animals in RSA. Wife coming as observer.

Daily fees plus trophy fees will run about $13,000.

Using the 10% plan, I have $1,300 to distribute to the PH, tracker, skinner(s) and domestic help.

Without further instruction/education, I would probably give $800 to the PH, $150 to the tracker, $20/animal to the skinners (so up to $200) and $150 to split up among the domestics (I expect only 2 or 3 would be involved).

Is this out in left field, or does it seem reasonable?


Tim

In my opinion, that would be very reasonable with one proviso; if the service isn't what it should be then don't tip.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffNut:
I have no objection to tipping an owner who serves as PH, but the logic would be that as the owner, he's already earned a profit on my hunt. The PH relies on tips as his compensation - he is paid by the owner but I would bet that the lion's share of his compensation is in the tip. He isn't getting any of the profit from the hunt itself.

Can anyone offer any insight into how PH's are compensated? Am I right that they - like many in the service industry - depend on tips for their livelihood? (As opposed to an owner, who depends on the profit of his business for his livelihood?)

Here is where I agree with Cal.

As mentioned above, why would the PH rely on the tip as his compensation?
Why isn't he paid enough for his job in the first place?

Is it going to be as bad as in the hotel industry, where a "service charge" is added, regardless of how good or bad the service is?

I have been to some 5 star hotels, and have refused to pay the 15% service charge they added to the bill for a "service" that was terrible.

This has never happened to me on safari, and paying a tip is never a problem.

May be the safari industry should take a leaf out of the banker's book.

And pay themselves a "bonus" that is several times their salary, rather it being a small percentage of it.

+1 or actually +1M!!!

I am still waiting for the first tip after I have returned someone's horse to usable service or saved its life.

I am a black and white fellow. Tell me what I will owe ahead of time and I will pay if I choose to go. I was taught in my upbringing that you don't deserve and extra reward for just doing what you are supposed to...to begin with.

The tipping thing is a flawed and exploited system.

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

My experiences are for PG in the Eastern Cape of RSA. In three hunts I had two different PHs each with a "tracker/skinner". The PH who guided me on my first two hunts used his full time employee even though the PH was only hunting part time (the PH was getting out of the industry but was an outstanding hunter and naturalist). Therefore, when I inquired as to a proper tip for the employee, the PH gave me a range as I understood that this situation was unique and over tipping could cause the PH problems with his employee. I tipped the employee at the very top end of the scale. I had seen the employee's home, met his family, and understood exactly what another $100 would mean to his family.

The third hunt was different due to the fact that the skinner/tracker had been an employee on the farm that the PH had grown up on. The relationship was much warmer and far less formal--bordering on friendship. This tracker was an absolute blast to be around as he and I teased each other throughout the hunt. At the end of the hunt, I tipped the tracker very, very well. As I peeled off the last $100 bill his eyes grew large and he kept uttering,"Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." I must say that his gratitude made the small gift more of a pleasure for me and made me feel ten feet tall.

I understand the controversies involved with this topic, but sometimes the "tip" gives more back than the monetary amount of the bills.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The tipping thing is a flawed and exploited system.

How so Lane? If you do not want to tip, don't tip. What is interesting is that those opposed to tipping seem to be suggesting that those that tip should stop because we are in some way perpetuating a "flawed and exploited" system and contributing to a "entitlement" mentality. If you disagree with tipping fine, but why should that mean that those that are inclined to tip should stop? It is a matter of personal choice, if you do not want to tip, fine, do not tip. By the same token, if I choose to tip, that is fine as well, not something to be condemned by those that choose not to tip. Seems to have more to do with the non-tippers not wanting to feel guilty: If you tip and I don't then people will look ill on me for not tipping. That is not a reason in my mind for those that prefer to tip to stop.

I was slightly amused after leaving a restaurant/bar in Las Vegas last week. I recived the bill and it had 'tip suggestions' at the bottom.


18% = 6.98
20% = 8....
25% = 9.78
30% = ....


18% was the minimum tip suggestion!!!!

I left them 10%

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
It is my understanding the camp jobs be they tracker, skinner, cook, etc they are some of the most coveted and best paying jobs. It just can't be for the possibility of a big tip.

Really, seriously? Have you ever been to your tracker's home? Your driver's home? Your game scout's home? I have. Their jobs, relatively speaking, may be viewed as "coveted and best paying" compared to trying to scratch out a living farming. But believe me their standard of living is such that they get far more out of whatever I might leave as a tip for working hard for me from well before dawn to well after dark every day for two or three weeks than I get out of that money. I am highly confident that they depend on tips and work hard to earn those tips. If someone chooses not to tip fine. But to try and suggest that tips are just lagniappe and that they do not work for and depend on those tips to maintain a modest, at best, standard of living is off the mark.

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

At this point in time tipping is actually deferred compensation, much like a bonus is in many areas of corporate America. It is expected to be part of the total compensation package of an employee. The amount of the tip or bonus will vary with performance, but it is certainly expected to be there. We can say it is a poor system and complain about it but for those of us going on Safari this year is it what it is. As Mike Jines said no one is forced to tip but know that it is likely expected and you should check with your safari company ahead of time to eliminate any awkward situations. I'm sure for those of you who would like to have an upfront total cost the safari operator could do that for you and add it to you bill. I would prefer to shake each employees hand, tell them how much I appreciate their effort and give them a tip.

Yes, tipping and employee wages…….. an interesting topic.

I always wonder what the daily rates would be like in Africa if they had to pay the vast array of bodies required to run the safari, at wages we have to pay guides/cooks/wranglers in Canada and Alaska.

Start paying all the staff what amounts to between $125 and $300 a day in US funds and I imagine the safari crews would be a bit more spartan than they are now or maybe the daily rates would be $5000.

Conversely if we had the same amount of staff on hand at remote camps in Canada and Alaska a regular everyday black bear hunt would be $15,000.

quote:

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

I had somewhat of a similar experience in Tanzania, the PH gave us a list of what he wanted and what the rest of the staff wanted. I was so tired of this ass****'s BS, I just paid it to get him out of my sight. Reflecting on that, I will make it very clear up front that if any similar trick is done, they will get absolutely nothing. I will not be pressured by these people ever again. IF, and I do mean if, I feel the service warrants a tip, I can be very generous; if not, I will not pay for services not rendered.

It has been my understanding also from previous safaris and small discussions that the PH receives $200 - $250 US per day. The appy PH that was on a DG hunt to Zim was very enthusiastic when he said this was really good money for Zimbabwe, among one of the highest paying jobs in the country. Be that the truth I don't know. On my first trip to Africa we went to Namibia. At that time I believe the trackers made around $10 per day, and the camp staff about $8. This is not as alarming as it might seem, we also went to the Osa Peninsula in Costa Rica and the normal service people in that area made between $300 to $400 per month, and there were no 8 hr day/40 hr week rules in place. They seemed to have a nice quality of life, although without a lot of American convenience's, fancy cars, big screen TV's etc. However they all had cell phones. Same with Belize almost exactly. During a bit of a tour in Zimbabwe my daughter and I visited a communal village with the appy PH. I asked what kind of income the people had, and the reply was little if any, they subsisted off the land for the most part. The money they di make was from harvesting elephant grass for roofing material, firewood, poached bush meat, etc
and that the people who had jobs, like the camp staff, trackers etc. were very fortunate.

It would be interesting for some of the Ph's to come on here and clarify what the trackers, skinners, camp manager and other staff earn as wages in a day. Maybe that would help determine what an appropriate tip would be - based upon a percentage of what they actually get paid. I suppose it is possible that they don't want us to know what the staff gets paid, although usually the operators and Ph's are truthful and transparent when asked a direct question. I know in my business that I don't want the customers to know my true costs, but then, even though we provide a service, we don't get or expect tips and my employees get paid appropriately. Most of us can do math fairly well and we would start comparing known operating expenses to daily rates. Not that it would change anything - no offense to anyone mind you
A thought (perhaps delusional) and not to start any poo throwing, is that the staff is not getting paid by the operator and is actually getting paid by the client at the end. Surely this could not be the case?

My experience is limited to two trips to Namibia hunting with a PH who is also the owner of the ranch (Jan du Plessis of Sebra Hunting Safaris). As I told Jan after my first hunt in August 2012, it was NOT my best hunting trip ever- it was my SEVEN best hunting trips ever (I harvested seven animals). I gave him the best tip I could afford, as well as a nice tip for his wife Mariesje, who is also the gourmet cook for the ranch. In addition, I also gave some small gifts to their kids. For my second trip in May 2013, we were now pretty well acquainted with each other, and the second hunt was even better than the first. Once again I gave the best tip I could afford to both Jan and Mariesje and small gifts for their kids. When it came time to settle up my trophy fees after we were done hunting, Jan called it the "toughest part of the hunt" for him. I told him it was the funnest part for me because I got a chance to thank him for all his efforts and also reward him for providing me so much enjoyment. After Jan drove me back to Windhoek for my flight back to Chicago, he allowed me to buy him a steak dinner at Joe's Beer House, as well as some liquid refreshments. It was just two guys enjoying each others company and talking about hunting. Hunting with Jan is more like hunting with one of my sons, and it makes me feel good to help him support his family in some small way.

Gents:
Allow me to differentiate between standard service and tipping for exceptional service. There is a difference. In a restaurant if all a waitress does is to bring me water, take my order, bring me food and then a bill I tip minimal. If less that that or if her attitude is bad or if she is texting and not serving me I tip nothing. I tip more for very friendly service where she goes out of her way to make my meal an enjoyable experience. That said…

How about a hunt--both the PH and his staff. What is expected and minimal duties and compare that to what is going beyond the norm. If all a hunter gets is driving around looking for game to shoot, baiting cats, the meals are OK, etc., is that service to be tipped or is it minimal service for the salary paid?

What, in your opinion, must a PH do for exceptional service to you to warrant a larger tip. Should the size of the animal matter (trophy wise) as most sizes (i.e. horn length) are a matter of chance? How about the staff? What must the tracker, skinner, water boy, cook, waiter, bed maker and laundress do to go above the basic line of duty to warrant an exceptional tip.

What say you all?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
My experience is limited to two trips to Namibia hunting with a PH who is also the owner of the ranch (Jan du Plessis of Sebra Hunting Safaris). As I told Jan after my first hunt in August 2012, it was NOT my best hunting trip ever- it was my SEVEN best hunting trips ever (I harvested seven animals). I gave him the best tip I could afford, as well as a nice tip for his wife Mariesje, who is also the gourmet cook for the ranch. In addition, I also gave some small gifts to their kids. For my second trip in May 2013, we were now pretty well acquainted with each other, and the second hunt was even better than the first. Once again I gave the best tip I could afford to both Jan and Mariesje and small gifts for their kids. When it came time to settle up my trophy fees after we were done hunting, Jan called it the "toughest part of the hunt" for him. I told him it was the funnest part for me because I got a chance to thank him for all his efforts and also reward him for providing me so much enjoyment. After Jan drove me back to Windhoek for my flight back to Chicago, he allowed me to buy him a steak dinner at Joe's Beer House, as well as some liquid refreshments. It was just two guys enjoying each others company and talking about hunting. Hunting with Jan is more like hunting with one of my sons, and it makes me feel good to help him support his family in some small way.

Right on Bud. I had to tell him to add the jackal TF on my bill; he wasn't going to charge me (I shot three or four and some baboons, none of which he charged me).

I can't say enough about Jan.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
Allow me to differentiate between standard service and tipping for exceptional service. There is a difference. In a restaurant if all a waitress does is to bring me water, take my order, bring me food and then a bill I tip minimal. If less that that or if her attitude is bad or if she is texting and not serving me I tip nothing. I tip more for very friendly service where she goes out of her way to make my meal an enjoyable experience. That said…

How about a hunt--both the PH and his staff. What is expected and minimal duties and compare that to what is going beyond the norm. If all a hunter gets is driving around looking for game to shoot, baiting cats, the meals are OK, etc., is that service to be tipped or is it minimal service for the salary paid?

What, in your opinion, must a PH do for exceptional service to you to warrant a larger tip. Should the size of the animal matter (trophy wise) as most sizes (i.e. horn length) are a matter of chance? How about the staff? What must the tracker, skinner, water boy, cook, waiter, bed maker and laundress do to go above the basic line of duty to warrant an exceptional tip.

What say you all?
Cal

Cal,if you are going on hunts where the PH has there mind mostly on other things besides your hunt then the issue is not tipping.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I was slightly amused after leaving a restaurant/bar in Las Vegas last week. I recived the bill and it had 'tip suggestions' at the bottom.


18% = 6.98
20% = 8....
25% = 9.78
30% = ....


18% was the minimum tip suggestion!!!!

I left them 10%

with that kind of nonsense, unless the service was outstanding, the tip would have been 0-5%.

We got this same notation on some of our restaurant bills while in Vegas. I find this insulting. I think I tip wait staff very well if they are doing a good job and enhance my dining experience but I'll decide what percentage I tip and do my own math.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The tipping thing is a flawed and exploited system.

How so Lane? If you do not want to tip, don't tip. What is interesting is that those opposed to tipping seem to be suggesting that those that tip should stop because we are in some way perpetuating a "flawed and exploited" system and contributing to a "entitlement" mentality. If you disagree with tipping fine, but why should that mean that those that are inclined to tip should stop? It is a matter of personal choice, if you do not want to tip, fine, do not tip. By the same token, if I choose to tip, that is fine as well, not something to be condemned by those that choose not to tip. Seems to have more to do with the non-tippers not wanting to feel guilty: If you tip and I don't then people will look ill on me for not tipping. That is not a reason in my mind for those that prefer to tip to stop.

Mike,
As a paying customer...by all means...feel free to do as you wish...I did not mean it any other way...I am a libertarian capitalist.

By flawed...I mean two things: 1) As a customer...I like to know exactly ahaed of time what I am going to owe and to who...I just like being prepared when it comes to money...just me. So far...my experience is that it is always different at the end of the hunt and somebody you did not count on wants some money...no biggy really...just annoying to my personality. When I buy a car...I make them tell me the exact bottom line down to the penny before I commit...then I hold their feet to the fire at the end...just my way of doing business...especially in today's times. 2) Any system which has jobs for people that provide service and those people are paid on a tip basis of which no one knows for sure of how much ahead of time is just an illogical system. The outfitter should pay the employees accordingly. The Hunter then can reward the outfitter with more business if the hunt is good...or the hunter can choose to hunt somewhere else and give the outfitter a bad recommendation if the hunt was bad.

A good case scenario: I have horse caretakers at my hospital. They shovel the poop, clean the stalls, wash the buckets, etc. etc. If I did business according to Africa Hunting...I would pay those guys beans for there work and then tell each client that old so-and-so took real good care of your horse while it was at our hospital...he sure would appreciate it if you slipped him a $20.

Just not how proper business is conducted. IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Oh Matt...you know I do...but I still think it is a stupid system.

I can tell by your post below that it annoys you a bit too. NO??? Because a 10% tipat a restaurant means you were not overly pleased.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I was slightly amused after leaving a restaurant/bar in Las Vegas last week. I recived the bill and it had 'tip suggestions' at the bottom.


18% = 6.98
20% = 8....
25% = 9.78
30% = ....


18% was the minimum tip suggestion!!!!

I left them 10%

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

It is what it is. But it can be a problem. A friend went for buffalo in Tanzania last summer and had no previous notice on the tipping system. When the PH in the end of the hunt turned over the list of expected tipps to the staff it was a great supprice for the two Swedish hunters, they had no idea of the system and was not informed by the outfitter. They managed to save the situation only by luck, it is not easy to find a ATM machine in the bush...

Exactly.

It is a flawed system. Tell people the exact bill ahead of time.

So you dont tip at restaurants then?

Matt, no you don't normaly tipp in Swedish resturants.

I have only been on one safari and CMS is really good putting the expected tipp out on the webpage, it is no supprice that the staff is expecting a tipp. My friends experience in Tanzania is worse. They asked the Swedish agent before the hunt about tipps and was given the answere that if they gave the PH $100 each everything will be fine. Then in the end of the hunt the PH shows a list adding several thousands of $$$ in tipps that the staff is expecting. That is a problem...

Then why must we kid ourselves and call it a tip??? Why don't the outfitters just say it will be so much extra added to the daily rate! Makes so much more sense to me.

Because if it were added to the daily rate, then there would not be any incentive to earn it as . . . a tip! That is why they call it a "tip"! It is no different in many respects than a bonus at work. A bonus is a way for an employer to acknowledge superior performance over and above an employee's base salary. In the case of a bonus, the employer is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays the bonus. With a tip the client is the beneficiary of the extra effort and pays a tip. Talk about the entitlement mentality, adding it into the daily rate is just what the Dems would love to do. Take out any incentive to perform and just add it into the base and make that the new normal.

MJines, is there any place or anything you haven't been or done?

quote:

Originally posted by seawoodII:
MJines, is there any place or anything you haven't been or done?

No, I am a true Renaissance man.

just a quick question-somewhat off topic so I apologize
Would the PH rather we take another animal and pay the trophy fee - say buffalo for example, rather than come up with larger tips?
It seems the elephant/hippo whatever.. itself would go more towards serving the area population than a few dollars given to specific individuals, and the operator is getting more money in trophy fee than could be expected by a tip, just a thought

I am like quite a few on here. I have to squirrel away money, beg the wife and maybe get to go to Africa about once every 4 years, wringing my hands and worrying about cost the whole time. I want to be able to make the most out of my trip. Coming up with 2 - 4 k in tips takes away from me being able to hunt another animal or stay a little longer, or maybe go a bit more frequently.

REASONABLE tipping yes, but it seems no one is able to define reasonable. And there are many better heeled people who tip extravagantly, ruining the normal tipping concept. If the camp staff gets a huge tip from one client, would they not expect that same tip from the next? My experience says yes.

Standard tipping rates from my upbringing and jobs when I was a kid are 10% to 15%......10% for average, everyday service, 15% for excellent above and beyond service
I think this has evolved to 15% for "Normal Service" since I was a kid, however, I cling to my old belief's. And I don't believe you should have your hand out expecting a tip for doing your job, I don't care what business you are in.

If a PH makes $200 per day - then reasonable to me would be $20 at 10% per day, $30 @ 15%
If a tracker makes $20 per day - then reasonable would be $2 per day at 10%, $3 @ 15%
So a 10 day hunt the tip would be $200 to $300 for the PH
$20 to $30 for trackers, camp staff etc. USING normal standard tipping practices here in the US
Not to bang on CMS, they obviously are doing something right, but if I remember correctly from the last time I read their website they recommended that the appropriate tip for a tracker is $20 per day. I am pretty sure that the trackers do not get paid $200 per day to account for the $20 per day as a 10% tip. More likely the Trackers are getting $20 per day and we are doubling their salary with a (?) $20 tip
Once again, not trying to throw poo or offend anyone, but something is out of whack and does not seem right to me

Am I off course here with my thinking?

Lane,

I think the reality is that if the safari operators charged a daily fee that allowed him to pay a wage to the staff that included what an average tip might be you'd find two things. One the service wouod drop off and two he'd sell less safaris.

I believe from my experience that the camp staff knows only too well that a good job will in most cases generate a good tip. The lure of the tip instills motivation and could make the difference whether you get that big lion or not.

I also think that with the increases particularly recently in safari costs that adding even more to the advertised price of a hunt has to effect the number of hunts sold.

Mark

I'll add my 2 cents as well ... no pun intended. Actually, I hate the tip concept. I'd much prefer to just know what the bill is and pay it. If a certain amount is expected for each member of the staff, say $20 per day for two trackers each and the hunt is 14 days, just add $40 per day to the daily rate and let the outfitter pay it. $30 per day for the cook, add another $30 per day to the daily rate. And so on and so forth. That way, during planning, I'll know exactly what is expected of me and there will be no hard feelings.

Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right". And to your point of feeling guilty ... well, yeah. You hit it on the head Pardner! I usually tip right in the middle of the "suggested" rates in Africa, and I've done Africa enough now that I've got a pretty good idea of what is expected. But I'll tell you a little story on why I hate tipping so much.

This past year, I did something I don't often do. That being taking a guided hunt here in the USA. It was scheduled as a 5 day hunt and the price was set. I took my trophy at noon on the first day. The animal was mediocre but I chose to pull the trigger so I'm not bitching about that. However, I struggled with how to handle the tip as I left camp the second day and headed home. Really, I struggled with this all evening and just dreaded the parting of company the following day. What I settled upon was to tip twice the daily rate of what I normally do for a PH, basically attempting to balance out the fact that the guide had allocated the entire 5 days to me, which he couldn't just find another hunter to fill for those remaining days, and the amount of effort expended to get my animal. Upon handing him the money, I immediately realized he was offended, or maybe that's too strong of a word, but I could tell he was disappointed. I left camp disappointed with myself for not thinking it thru adequately. I made a couple of cell phone calls and spoke to a couple of guys who have been hunting guides in the US for years and each one told me I should have tipped him based on the entire 5 days.

When I got home, I mailed him a check for the other 3 days, based on the rate I had chosen. I sent him an email stating I was going to do so, prior to the check arriving, as I wanted him to know it was on my mind and I felt bad about it. He responded with appreciation and stated this thing happens from time to time. Then, in the same email response, he made reference about how it would be nice to address this issue with widespread dissemination so that others would have a guideline. His suggested guideline however, and again, this is prior to his receiving the make up check, was well in excess of what my combined tips added up to. In that case, I'm afraid that upon receiving the check in the mail, he was still greatly disappointed. Somehow, I think I made another mistake with that make up check ... but not in the obvious manner! And I don't think either of us ended up completely happy in the end.

So yeah, put me in the camp of just telling me what I need to pay for the trip in total. If I can afford it, I'll go ... and the outfitter can pay the staff appropriately from those funds without me having to worry about it. I don't need the guilt trip, even if self imposed. And I don't buy this business about tips being reserved for "exceptional service". They are expected, pure and simple. Do I have to have "exceptional service" to hunt with the same outfitter a second time. No, probably not. If the hunt was conducted and everything promised was delivered accurately, I'd be inclined to return, even if the service was "as advertised" and not "exceptional and beyond expected". However, I wonder if the second trip would be delivered at that same "as advertised" level in the case of not tipping on the first hunt?

So I HAD to do it. I went to CMS web and copy and pasted their suggested tipping for staff. I have to also dd CMS states it is just an average and that it has to be performance based and is not mandatory or expected

CMS website
The camps generally have six or seven staff and then of course you will have two trackers, a driver and a game scout on your hunting vehicle. We hope that you find this of some use!
I took the liberty of extending the amounts for a ten day hunt

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20 = $200
Cook 15 =$150
Waiter 1 10 =$100
Waiter 2 10 =$100
General Hand 10 =$100
Skinner 15 =$150
Assistant skinner 10 =$100
Professional Hunter 100 =$1000
Tracker 1 20 =$200
Tracker 2 20 =$200
Driver 20 =$200
Game Scout 15 =$150

Total tip for a ten day hunt =$2650.00

Totally blows away my 15% theory

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

To me tipping is part of the overall safari cost, just like airfare, and I budget for it accordingly. I like that I have some control over the amounts given, and I know for sure that the money is going where I intended it to. I am afraid that if gratuities were built in, there would be too much opportunity for abuse. Heck, I have heard numerous stories of PH’s not getting paid by the outfitter (nobody on AR!) including direct from the horses mouth, can we really expect that the skinner and camp helper are going to reliably see their cut? They would be quite mistrustful too, and I suspect most PH’s prefer to be somewhat removed from the process so as not to be accused of skimming.

I have seen it done all different ways. One approach was payment in lump sum to be split up by the staff after departure, but with a breakdown given to a trusted staff member. In Cameroon, I was asked to sit at a desk which was brought outside my hut. The guys lined up according to their rank, and in a very proper manner they were given their tip. This was exactly the same way that I saw them being paid their regular salary earlier in the hunt by the PH. Mostly it is somewhere between these extremes, and although I am somewhat uncomfortable with the tipping being the “lasting memory” of the trip, I do prefer to look the person in the eye, shake his hand, and thank him for his efforts.

As was said, if built-in, it would soon become the new norm….and it would not take long before somebody feeling good about their hunt (or feeling the need for some hush money!) would slide in a little extra, soon followed by renewed expectations, and the cycle would start all over.

I appreciate the outfitters that are upfront about it and advise what the expectations are, with a range preferred over an exact amount. It is also good to know how many people will be in camp, as it is far easier today to make a half-dozen staff guys plus 2-3 trackers/driver/scout happy, than 20-25 plus camp manager, appys, etc. At a certain point, if the outfitter has that many people employed (which is a good thing!), they need to shelter the hunter from this, who should only be concerned about those who are directly involved in his safari.

To me, it is disingenuous when a booking agent states that “tipping is optional” (one old-timer used to do that all the time here), as I guarantee that this sentiment is not shared by the people on the ground, and as was stated above, is going to create some drama at the end of the hunt. It serves nobody’s best interest, except maybe the person trying to close the sale.

Regarding tipping vs not tipping…I feel that this is dictated by where I am GOING, not where I am from. In Africa, it is the norm, and as such, if I hunt Africa I am going to tip. If tipping is not commonplace in other parts of the world if/when I go there, or built-in, I will respect that too.

And to answer the original question there are times where I could see not tipping the “owner”, recognizing that this could mean different things….the owner of the hunting company is one thing, the owner of the property another. For example, I hunted with a German and later a French owned outfit, both of who operated in Africa more out of passion than necessity. They both stated that they do not accept tips for the hunts that they conduct.

However, for the majority of instances I believe it is totally proper to tip, as while the PH might have a vested interest in the company, he likely would not be in the field unless he needed to (at least more than a few hunts a year), with the tips making up a meaningful percentage of his overall earnings. I have been fortunate to hunt with guys like Buzz Charlton, Martin Pieters and Peter Chipman, and I tipped all to the best of my abilities.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Then DON'T tip. Sheesh. Pretty simple actually. Is anyone forcing you to tip?

To not tip is off course not an option. When you in camp are explained that the majority of the staff salary is tipps, you understand that this is a system for payment rather than a sign of appriciation. I am not arguing against this system, it is put into work by US hunters and US hunters is the majority of clients in the safari industry. It is just a difficult system to grasp for a Swedish hunter that has grown up in a culture without tipps. If tipps was just some % of the staffs salarys it would be something different. But when (again, I have only been to one safari it might be different on other outfits) the tipps is doubble-tripple the salary it is mandatory to tip. To be honest, I wish the fantastic people I meet in the CMS camp to have many vealthy American hunters with big tipping abilities as clients in the future

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Then DON'T tip. Sheesh. Pretty simple actually. Is anyone forcing you to tip?

I am having a difficult time understanding why the above quote can not be understood. It is pretty straight forward and simple in my opinion.

The "Tipping" issue in Africa at least, again in my opinion, revolves around hunters wanting to book a safari are not really taking time to research the various hunting operations policy on tipping. If the hunter trying to book a hunt does not want to be pressured into tipping every member of the safari staff, simply find a different operator.

As a guide, I appreciate ANY form of gratuity I receive from a client. Money is great, but for me so is a 12 pack of my favorite beer, because that is money I will not have to be spending out of my pocket.

Yes, Americans are the guilty party, they have learned over a couple of decades or so here at home, a night on the town with family and friends goes a lot better if a few palms are greased.

That concept has trickled down into all areas of human life here in the states.

Tip or no tip, as a hunter, I know when I have done the best job I can do, and if I am satisfied with the effort I put forth, that is the main thing I try to achieve, a tip from a client, regardless of what it is, merely means that the client actually appreciated the amount of work I did for them and it was given of their own Free Will, and was not something that was expected or mandatory.

An aspect of mandatory of expected tipping amounts can have just as negative effect as not tipping. If the staff knows going in that they are going to get tipped regardless of the job they do, they are not going to bust their ass, they know they are going to get a tip if they do nothing more than set around with their thumb in their ass and their mind in Arkansas.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mike, I understand your point on what this money means to the driver, trackers, skinner, etc, but why would it be any different than the outfitter just adding those "expected" tip rates to the daily rate and paying them himself. Then the onus is off of me in terms of "getting it right".

All the closet liberals are coming out. Let's eliminate any incentive to perform and just roll it into the base rate. That means we all get higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service. What's not to like about that? Sounds like a plank right out of the Democratic platform. I like incentives to perform. I like bonuses. I am not afraid of incentives. That is one reason I like hunts with exaggerated trophy fees, it aligns my interests with those of the PH. As for dealing with guilt, I am a lawyer, I deal with the stigma and guilt associated with that every day.

Closet liberals, eh? All very nice and neat if that was REALLY the way it is on safari, but Mike you know as well as anyone that those tips are expected. Does the possibility of a even larger tip for exceptional service, exist? Sure, but the "suggested tips" are expected. Like it or not, that's the way it is in today's Africa ... expected, regardless of level of service. "Higher rates and a greater likelihood of mediocre service", you say? How about firing those employees that don't perform and simply provide "mediocre service"? The norm should be exceptional service, especially when hunting with a top operator, for I suggest to you that without continued exceptional service from the employees, the "top operators" will not be "tops" for long! "Eliminate an incentive to perform?, you say? How about providing incentive to perform by linking his continued employment to performance of said job?

Just tell me what I owe them upfront and I'll pay it. If they don't perform, they're the outfitter's employees to sort out and I can choose to return or not. If he chooses to continue employing them in the face of continued sloppy service, I can always move to the next "top" operator. Sorry but I don't see anything "liberal" about paying top dollar up front and expecting "top service" in return. I'd call that insistence on excellence to keep one's job! I do however see an issue with letting a below average worker stay on the payroll with continued poor service provided, just so long as the clients pay him in tips.

Tipping is only an expectation because, apparently those that are opposed to tipping do so in spite of their strong convictions to the contrary. For those that are opposed to tipping, might I suggest that if you want to change the expectation, stop tipping.

Being a Kiwi and also an India, this subject really rankles!

Every time I visit India I have to face a string of people with their hands out. Hotel staff are absolutely fantastic & they deserve the tips. Giving a guy 20 rupees is like 35 cents. Giving a person 100 rupees is less than $2. The smile on their faces makes me feel guilty - just $2! What I get really angry with are the cab drivers etc. who cheat you and then expect a top up.

I realise that a safari is different - a heck of a lot more of personal service. I have checked various websites & have come across 3 guidelines. I will not mention names as I do not want to offend anyone. I actually would love hunting with 2 of them & the third is now retired!

Here is the summary for a 7 day buffalo hunt - I have had to make some adjustments to compare apples with apples. A, B & C are the 3 guidelines.

7 day Buffalo hunt A B C
Professional Hunter $500.00 $700.00 $500.00
Trackers (2) $150.00 $280.00 $140.00
Driver $75.00 $140.00 $75.00
Camp manager $80.00 $140.00 $75.00
Skinner $75.00 $105.00 $75.00
Cook $50.00 $105.00 $40.00
Servers (2) $50.00 $140.00 $80.00
Maids (2) $50.00 $140.00 $80.00
Laundress $30.00 $70.00 $40.00

TOTAL $1,060.00 $1,820.00 $1,105.00


Two of them are almost identical & one is quite generous. The difference is in the detail. One suggest as low as $3 / day for maids while another suggest $10 per camp staff per day.

The above numbers can change significantly if there are 2 cooks, an assistant skinner, etc. & add the game scout - total $200 to $400.

That amounts to a conservative $1,200 tips for a $10k buffalo hunt. Add any PG, air fare, hotels etc and it will end up at about 8% of the total experience!

The first time I started calculating this and thinking about it, my gut was churning and my heart was thumping! Heck, I don't spend that much for birthdays on my 3 kids! I took a deep breath and just put that figure into the spreadsheet and started planning the hunt. I then paid the deposit. I decided that I was not going to allow this whole tip saga to dominate my thoughts and spoil my African hunt experience.

Now my conscience is clear that my attitude is right & I plan to do my best. I trust the PH & his team will understand that.