The tipping trends are one more thing that is succeeding in pushing the average Joe out of the African hunting market. Personally I think it has gotten ridiculous with some of the lists on here…… starting to look like the list of credits at the end of a movie.

It sure as hell has changed from 30 years ago when you gave a knife or some such item to your tracker and most PH's got angry if you over tipped the staff. Not to mention dip and pack was included, along with delivery to the taxidermist……… as opposed to yet another couple of grand as seems to be case these days.

I tip for good service for people directly involved but I'll be damned if I am going to tip a game guard that is required by law or a list of apprentice this and thats, who are being trained or along for the ride.

Give me a camp where the PH drives the truck and the tracker and skinner help each other, a cook and a couple of camp staff.

Rich boys with goals, wanting superlative care and pampering, willing to absorb whatever increases in costs are thrust upon hunters by government or operator; have had a hugely negative impact on the whole industry and its affordability.

The whole safari system is kinda like Vegas. People with their hands out in all directions and a sense of entitlement.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
I don't think the hunting industry people are shying away. All has been said that can be said since the beginning of the thread.
My 5 cents worth : Tip what you can for good service , no one should prescribe exactly what it should be. Any PH that does that to you on the first day of the hunt should be set straight. It IS a tradition of the Safari business though. Most PH's , trackers and staff work their butts off for their hunters and the tip often makes a big difference to them.
That said , we hear about the cocky PH or outfitter or game scout expecting ( demanding ) a huge tip , but what about the hunter who wounds his buffalo and his lion. Endangers everyones lives in the follow ups and then tips the trackers with a handful of cheap BIC pens .... Really ? I've seen this happen years ago when I was still a rookie. On one other occasion I had a hunter of a very successful big 4 safari tip the head tracker $ 5 . Admittedly I have only seen this twice in my 20 odd year career and a long time ago. The same tracker is still my no.1 tracker and has saved my life on more than one occasion with his keen observation and almost eerie sixth sense. A fantastic man by any account. He laughs about it now , but I remember it was a huge slap in his face back then. I subsequently taught him that should this ever happen again he should say " thank you " smile . return the money and say "you need it more than I do sir "
It would have been better to give him nothing , but shake his hand and told him he was a man and that you truly appreciated his hard work.
But then again , what do I know ?

Thanks for the input Jan.
It really can be tough on us hunters what to tip sometimes. So many variations.
I don't think, anyone says not to tip, just some simple guidelines, that's all.
From hunter's point of view, it is not easy to see it the way you see it and vice versa.
And I think that is where it can be so much misunderstood

I know its a tough one. We keep on talking about Africa though. So what does the average sheep hunter tip his guide ? I hear that a percentage of the hunt is in order ?

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Jan, it would be my guess you bonus that tracker as few thousand dollars each year at Christmas and also at the end of the hunting season so it is at least 7% of your annual revenue.

Well old hunter , that really depends if some hunter was cheap and "forgot" to tip the staff after a fantastic hunt , and I eventually end up tipping them in the form of a end of hunt bonus . But , my guess would be that you would not fall into that category .

Couldn't tell you
Only hunts I have been to being guided are in Africa
But when I was guiding in my young days in States it was the same thing.
It differed a lot, but wasn't based on percentage or anything like that.
Sometimes $20 other times $50 and sometimes nothing.
We looked at it as beer money
I still think this is very good subject for the fact that it envelops such a huge array of different variations of dealing with people from different backgrounds

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
I know its a tough one. We keep on talking about Africa though. So what does the average sheep hunter tip his guide ? I hear that a percentage of the hunt is in order ?

I have been hunting sheep a couple of times in US/Canada and it is expected to recieve 5-10% of the total cost of the hunt as a tip to the guide. That could bring the tip to the guide up to 2.000 US dollars for a Dall sheep hunt costing 20.000,- and a 3.500 dollars tip for a stone sheep hunt costing 35.000 dollars...

In addition tip to cook, assistant guide, Wrangler etc. The outfitter himself did not want any tips, just tip the guides they said both of them !

I personally have always been on the 5-6% level. In US/Canada there are normally 2-4 people to tip. In Africa there is a full football team on the list - this also makes it more challenging.

My question is; do you have to give big tips to everyone to be a repeat client and welcomed again ? Anybody out there having some experience or thoughts about that ?

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
I know its a tough one. We keep on talking about Africa though. So what does the average sheep hunter tip his guide ? I hear that a percentage of the hunt is in order ?

I have been hunting sheep a couple of times in US/Canada and it is expected to recieve 5-10% of the total cost of the hunt as a tip to the guide. That could bring the tip to the guide up to 2.000 US dollars for a Dall sheep hunt costing 20.000,- and a 3.500 dollars tip for a stone sheep hunt costing 35.000 dollars...

In addition tip to cook, assistant guide, Wrangler etc. The outfitter himself did not want any tips, just tip the guides they said both of them !

I personally have always been on the 5-6% level. In US/Canada there are normally 2-4 people to tip. In Africa there is a full football team on the list - this also makes it more challenging.

My question is; do you have to give big tips to everyone to be a repeat client and welcomed again ? Anybody out there having some experience or thoughts about that ?

No , one doesn't have to give big tips to be welcome. Showing appreciation in the form of a tip is welcome though as it is anywhere in the world. Different cultures tip differently and a good outfit will flow with that.
The Sheep tipping experience is in line with what I have heard. So what was asked for cooks etc ?
When I was hunting Stags in Scotland , I remember the tipping to be along the same lines with extra tips for the cook , gillies etc.
It just points out that not only in Africa is tipping an issue. Or is it not frown upon to give such tips because the hunt takes place in North America or Europe ? I would think that on a big Game hunt in Africa , 10 % would be more than welcome and in some instances could take care of the whole camp staff , and then some. I'm not propagating the 10 % rule here, just playing devils advocate.

Isn't it ironic, the higher the cost of a hunt the more it's felt you're supposed to tip. Has anyone ever thought there are some pretty overpriced hunts out there? Is it logical that two operators one of which charges $6,000 and another $10,000 for essential the same thing should get significantly different amounts in tips?

Also, why in the world would one ask safari operators how much it's proper to tip? It's like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Isn't it ironic, the higher the cost of a hunt the more it's felt you're supposed to tip. Has anyone ever thought there are some pretty overpriced hunts out there? Is it logical that two operators one of which charges $6,000 and another $10,000 for essential the same thing should get significantly different amounts in tips?

Also, why in the world would one ask safari operators how much it's proper to tip? It's like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

Do you tip at restaurants, if so, how is that any different than how it works with a restaurant? Next time I eat at Ruth's Chris, I will need to remember that I should tip like I was at K-Bobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Isn't it ironic, the higher the cost of a hunt the more it's felt you're supposed to tip. Has anyone ever thought there are some pretty overpriced hunts out there? Is it logical that two operators one of which charges $6,000 and another $10,000 for essential the same thing should get significantly different amounts in tips?

Also, why in the world would one ask safari operators how much it's proper to tip? It's like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

While this is significantly off my original question I do have to agree with you. While I guess the restaurant metaphor could answer this, there is rarely as significant a difference from one sheep camp to another as there is from a 5 star restaurant to the local IHOP. The guide clearly deserves some consideration in both but I'm am not convinced that it should be based on the delta of total cost of identical hunts.

I dont tip more.There was a German client in camp as well. My hunt was 14 days, his was 18. He finished up 4 days before I did as he had arrived earlier. He left a total of $300 to be shared between the PH, camp managers, and staff. I left $4,000 per the "suggested" guideline.


I think that is okay.
In Germany a tip is a tip.
Not more, it is for an coffee, not an second in-come.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Isn't it ironic, the higher the cost of a hunt the more it's felt you're supposed to tip. Has anyone ever thought there are some pretty overpriced hunts out there? Is it logical that two operators one of which charges $6,000 and another $10,000 for essential the same thing should get significantly different amounts in tips?

Also, why in the world would one ask safari operators how much it's proper to tip? It's like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

Do you tip at restaurants, if so, how is that any different than how it works with a restaurant? Next time I eat at Ruth's Chris, I will need to remember that I should tip like I was at K-Bobs.

Very true Mike. Bottom line is ,there is no rigid formula for it.
While I'm at it and probably making myself very unpopular for being outspoken , here is something else to chew on : When you tip , do you give the tip to the outfitter to distribute , or do you tip the people yourself ?
I always have hunters tip the staff directly. They see who it is coming from and have the money in their hands. Now. I know some outfitters say they keep their tips till end of season or Christmas and then give it to them in a large lump . While there is some merit in this , some unscrupulous outfitters ( some of them ,very well known ones I might add ) have been known to dabble their fingers in the cookie jar , so to speak. Shameful behaviour but ,It happens all the time.
I can hear the outfitters cussing me already...

I commend you Jan to get into this this discussion
I wish more PH's would pipe in and agents
Their silence is deafening and only makes lots of us question thing more

I tip myself face to face to the person receiving the tip.

.... "some unscrupulous outfitters ( some of them ,very well known ones I might add ) have been known to dabble their fingers in the cookie jar , so to speak. Shameful behaviour but ,It happens all the time."


Jan:

I have devised a formula which satisfies the staff according to the pecking order and divides the money which the client has decided to part with in those proportionate measures.

The entire list of names and values are entered in triplicate, in a numbered page invoice book signed by client, PH and Camp Manager where the original copy is handed to the Camp Manager (in the presence of the staff), the second copy to the client for his personal reference and the last copy to the outfitter who holds the money for safekeeping until the end of the season.

Each beneficiary is separately handed a signed slip referencing the hunt and invoice number by the PH for the amount due to be presented for payment.

This system has worked for many years to everyone's satisfaction and nobody has ever been short changed by the outfitter on payday.

The preceding system is what I apply to the camp staff and while the crew on board the vehicle are also part of the camp staff, are treated in a more "direct" manner in that the client has been in constant contact with them for the entire duration of the hunt and has formed more of a bond with them than the camp staff, most of whom he never sees.

The recommendations are presented and the client does the honors of presenting each one separately with his envelope, a handshake and more often than not with some parting words of appreciation.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

I have devised a formula which satisfies the staff according to the pecking order and divides the money which the client has decided to part with in those proportionate measures.

The entire list of names and values are entered in triplicate, in a numbered page invoice book signed by client, PH and Camp Manager where the original copy is handed to the Camp Manager (in the presence of the staff), the second copy to the client for his personal reference and the last copy to the outfitter who holds the money for safekeeping until the end of the season.

Each beneficiary is separately handed a signed slip referencing the hunt and invoice number by the PH for the amount due to be presented for payment.

This system has worked for many years to everyone's satisfaction and nobody has ever been short changed by the outfitter on payday.

The preceding system is what I apply to the camp staff and while the crew on board the vehicle are also part of the camp staff, are treated in a more "direct" manner in that the client has been in constant contact with them for the entire duration of the hunt and has formed more of a bond with them than the camp staff, most of whom he never sees.

The recommendations are presented and the client does the honors of presenting each one separately with his envelope, a handshake and more often than not with some parting words of appreciation.

Perfect example of how the entire tipping process has grown Out of Control!

Todd:

You are entitled to your opinion.

None (repeat NONE) of my clients ever objected to this system and thought it to be pretty well thought out.

You of course can tip as you please and in whichever manner you see fit.

Tipping again:

Feeling manipulated by digital tips for coffee? The struggle is real.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
The tipping trends are one more thing that is succeeding in pushing the average Joe out of the African hunting market. Personally I think it has gotten ridiculous with some of the lists on here…… starting to look like the list of credits at the end of a movie.

It sure as hell has changed from 30 years ago when you gave a knife or some such item to your tracker and most PH's got angry if you over tipped the staff. Not to mention dip and pack was included, along with delivery to the taxidermist……… as opposed to yet another couple of grand as seems to be case these days.

I tip for good service for people directly involved but I'll be damned if I am going to tip a game guard that is required by law or a list of apprentice this and thats, who are being trained or along for the ride.

Give me a camp where the PH drives the truck and the tracker and skinner help each other, a cook and a couple of camp staff.

Rich boys with goals, wanting superlative care and pampering, willing to absorb whatever increases in costs are thrust upon hunters by government or operator; have had a hugely negative impact on the whole industry and its affordability.

The whole safari system is kinda like Vegas. People with their hands out in all directions and a sense of entitlement.

Very well said. I wonder, do ph and his staff only work hard because they expect a big tip? Are they not proud of their job? In October I sort of hunted in Zimbabwe. It was crap from the beginning. Very poor service, lousy ph, lousy tracker. But still, they wanted a tip! How cheeky is that? Kitchen staff and driver were nice, gave them a tip, also one to the tracker but nothing to the ph. One afternoon he was completely pissed, I mean does such a person deserve a tip? Rather the opposite.

I'm also in the guiding business. Whenever a client wants to tip me I feel very awkward, don't want to accept the money, to me it feels extremely cheap. No problem with an invitation to a nice restaurant - but money. No way.

If somebody works hard he deserves reward. I think only rich people don’t need tips. I have never met rich PH or camp stuff, so they deserve tips if they work hard. But I am against of tipping whole camp: people I’ve never saw, road crew etc.

I had situation in Tanzania. I had 10 days safari. In the end of safari I was going to left $2000 as a tips, but PH insisted to have 5000+ because Americans left such sum after 21 days safari. We even had satellite call with owner about this situation. The owner even mentioned this situation few months later on the hunting exhibition.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
If somebody works hard he deserves reward. I think only rich people don’t need tips. I have never met rich PH or camp stuff, so they deserve tips if they work hard. But I am against of tipping whole camp: people I’ve never saw, road crew etc.

I had situation in Tanzania. I had 10 days safari. In the end of safari I was going to left $2000 as a tips, but PH insisted to have 5000+ because Americans left such sum after 21 days safari. We even had satellite call with owner about this situation. The owner even mentioned this situation few months later on the hunting exhibition.

Disgusting behaviour and I would have told the PH to piss off. That would be a good verbal tip.

100 bucks a day for a tip is pretty good for most hunts. I asked three different Dall sheep guides from the NWT what the minimum tip should be and they said $1000. Their hunts are 10 days.


All three of them said "tell them this hunt was a major extravagance for you, and you can only afford $1000", and they will be fine with that. These hunts are $20,000. So that's a 5% tip.



If they are not professional and make me wait for 3 hours for them to fix a fence, or attend to personal business for an entire day, or some other bullshit I don't tip.



Here is my guided hunt record of tipping. Tipping is uncommon here among Europeans on hunts in Germany. On the three group hunts I have been on I would have been the only one tipping.



First guided hunt Spain. tipped a Iberian cured ham leg (about $150), a new Barbour jacket ($300), $200 cash, and a new $50 buck knife. These were all items I was asked for. Price of the hunt was about $800 for two days plus trophy fees. Killed nothing, missed a big wild boar at night.

Second guided hunt Namibia. Tipped the owners wife $100 for cooking. PH, left me in a camp for an entire day the 3rd day of the safari to attend to personal business. We also spent most mornings fixing game fence. Expensive hunt while on active duty for an E6 $10500. Did not tip the PH.

Third guided hunt Germany. Roe deer killed a nice buck on the 4th day. My fault actually forgot to tip. He was gentlemanly about it, and didn't say anything. Cheap hunt less than $1500.

Fourth guided hunt Maine. Was grossly lied to about the size of the operation. After shooting a smallish pig 10 minutes into the hunt, I realized I was in a 15-20 acre pen, and not a 1000 acre ranch (it was heavily timbered). Spent $500 on this 100 pound pig. Didn't tip.

Fifth guided hunt Germany. Roe deer, killed two very small bucks on the first night. Got jerked around and put into blinds in the forest with no game for 3 days then I screwed up an opportunity on the last morning. Felt jerked around by them overbooking the hunt. It was a group hunt. Didn't tip because of the bullshit.

Sixth guided hunt Germany. Driven hunt. Got told we would hunt from 0900-1500. Didn't get into the seat until 11:30, and they called the hunt over at 1330. Never fired a shot. Sounded like world war three around me. Never had a safe location to shoot, saw a 25 pound pig, and 3 foxes. Foxes were not on the menu. Could have killed any of them. Did not tip. Hunt was 750 Euros.

This Namibian hunt?
You should put name to it
That’s the only way to make sure these things don’t happen to someone else

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Tipping again:

Feeling manipulated by digital tips for coffee? The struggle is real.

I had meant to add a link to this, but now I can’t find it.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
This Namibian hunt?
You should put name to it
That’s the only way to make sure these things don’t happen to someone else

It was in 2005. Kalahari Hunting Safaris. There are probably 8 different companies called that today.


Other people hunted with them and had no problems. I have a foul mouth, and I am a joker. They were hard core Christian bible bangers, and it went poorly from the beginning.


I am bible banger now, but I still have a foul mouth and still a joker.

Roman,

What you described is totally inappropriate. If a PH approached a client I had booked with a request for a $5,000 tip on a 10 day hunt that would be the last time he hunted one of my clients. I'm all for tipping but a particular amount should never be requested. The PH should have just accepted the tip with polite "Thank you" even if it was 10 cents.

I don't mind a PH asking what a client thinks about a staff tip at safari's end as he's asking for the client's input not demanding an x,y,z amount.

Mark

I like Saeed's rule...

If the guide/PH/outfitter ever suggests an amount or percentage for a tip - they get NOTHING

Funny we are arguing about tips here, and looking at the media we see bankers in New York getting obscene bonuses!

Amounting to several times their salaries.

I don't come from a tipping country therefore I always ask my PH to include the tip in the total price. That makes it easy for me.
I always do this with any PH I know.

It’s almost engrained in me to tip wherever I am. It’s almost an automatic 20% (on meals and such, but I may adjust accordingly). My ex Argentine girlfriend was always shocked. Those were meals. Guides are different. One in Africa had beat up Steiner Binos. He ended up with fairly new Swarovski binos. It’s all relative, I suppose.

AB109,

That defeats the purpose of a tip. A tip is an extra to say "I got good service" or "you did something special."

I am fortunate, I guess, in that all of my African trips I have never been told that tips are expected at the start. Towards the end of the hunts I asked my PH what he suggested for tips. The amounts that were suggested to me, each time I asked, were always less than what I thought was deserved, especially on my elephant bull hunt.
When booking my multiple South American bird shoots I do ask, in advance, what is suggested for tips, as I always want to have enough cash to cover those. On all but one trip I gave more.
What concerns me now is that I see South American trips advertised via email and when the email lists the expenses involved some list tips with a "minimum". This tells me that the outfitter is not paying his staff/bird boys a decent amount and is looking to the shooter to cover that. I never consider these outfitters.

On my last safari, I left $200.00 ($20.00 a day) for the camp staff to be split up by the camp manager. The manager looked at me as if, I had pissed in the soup.

BH63

I forgot to mention in my previous post-on my bull elephant hunt in 2015 the camp manager was the same guy who managed my first safari in 2011 in a different camp (same Safari Company). The 2015 camp was in much worse shape than the camp I stayed at in 2011. Even had to get my PH to fix the flush valve on the toilet so it wouldn't run all night and keep me awake (as well as waste the borehole water supply) after multiple requests of the camp manager. He got a token tip.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
It’s almost engrained in me to tip wherever I am. It’s almost an automatic 20% (on meals and such, but I may adjust accordingly). My ex Argentine girlfriend was always shocked. Those were meals. Guides are different. One in Africa had beat up Steiner Binos. He ended up with fairly new Swarovski binos. It’s all relative, I suppose.

A buddy of mine guides in New Mexico, almost everyone is from Texas they guide for, and almost 100% of them give more than 20% for a tip. $1000 on a $5000 deer hunt kind of thing.

Told me he got nervous if the hunter was not from Texas.

My father in law told me when he was younger and had a young family that life cost more and he could not afford to be a big tipper. Wife and I as a practice tip 5% unless things suck, we have a young family wife doesn't work (because she is a school teacher and in turn she home schools our three girls).

We were joking about tips one day and he said as a single man he was broke, they had been married his entire adult life. He only started tipping after the kids were out of the house and now he was a big tipper.

I didn't get married until I was a 37, I remember being single and having a decent job for a single guy and big tips.

It will be a long time before any guide or PH gets more than 5%. Because any money I have toward the hunt at this stage in my life is a struggle to get.

Been guide when I was young
I did it because it kept me in woods and I was good at it
I remember when some guides got pissy if tip wasn’t big enough and that’s stupid and moronic to me
I wouldn’t hang around them and had no respect for them

If you have to and want to rely on tips to make living in guiding business, then that’s your prerogative
But it shouldn’t be main source of income( tips )

Just for the record, I do tip on hunts. That being said its kind of turned into a racket. In an earlier post someone mentioned tipping at a restaurant. My question is do you have your waitress/waiter get a list of everyone at the restaurant? You know, the cook, the cooks assistant, the busboy, the dishwasher, the dishwashers assistant, the manager, well you get my drift, so you can tip all of them? I've had a PH give me a list of fifteen or twenty people at the end of a hunt that they expected me to tip. I didn't even know who most of them were or what they did. I once had a PH badmouth the camp manager the entire safari (he was quite right by the way). At the end of the safari he recommended a tip for the manager that I thought was ludicrous!

For all of the complaining I just did I'll keep tipping. I actually enjoy it for the most part. I just don't like being strong armed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
AB109,

That defeats the purpose of a tip. A tip is an extra to say "I got good service" or "you did something special."

As I always hunt with same PH I know it is special every time, so no problem.
Personally, this tipping has got out of hand.
If I book a hunt and pay good money, I expect it to be "special". its not that the PH's are living on the poverty line...............
If I go on a hunt with a new PH, I ask up front what they want in tips. Then I give it to them to get it over and done with. If the hunt is bad, well I just don't go with them again.
20% tip is just plain crazy. I would prefer if they build it into the price and make the hunt 1st class.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Roman,

What you described is totally inappropriate. If a PH approached a client I had booked with a request for a $5,000 tip on a 10 day hunt that would be the last time he hunted one of my clients. I'm all for tipping but a particular amount should never be requested. The PH should have just accepted the tip with polite "Thank you" even if it was 10 cents.

I don't mind a PH asking what a client thinks about a staff tip at safari's end as he's asking for the client's input not demanding an x,y,z amount.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. My outfitter thinks the same like you