Mickey1 a charging buff or elephant with either a bow or a 45-70 is not the topic here. But as you brought it up I will reply to you. I am not Mark sullivan nor a wannabe MS but I ask no backup, though realize the legal ramification for the company .
Pay my way and I'll hunt the buff or elephant with either weapon as well as pay a videographer's trip to record the events.
I've never killed either animal with anything but I do not lack the courage that apparently some posters here do to accomplish the hunts.
What say you, Sir? are you willing to run the camera?

I would like to add to this topic by adding what none less then Ray Atkinson has said in the past. I will not quote him as I do not recall the exact words but the gist of his post was that many American Bison are killed each year an the bison is at least the equal of a Cape Buffalo for size, toughness and sheer ornery tempermant when riled.
The 45-70 has dispatched, cleanly I may add, many an American bison...train loads. cats

Apparently one can add poor reading comprehension skills in addition to poor headwork to the 45/70 crowd. NOBODY's saying that you can't kill an elephant or a buffalo with a 45/70, it's just not a poor choice and sencondly, my original posts about folks that claim 2200 fps plus can be attained with the 45/70 are either one sandwich short of a picinic basket or have issues with truth-telling. And I don't know what Ray Atkinson said, but I will be very surprised if he equated the American Bison to a Cape Buffalo when it comes to hunting a wounded one. jorge

An interesting 45-70 thread. Both for and against it's use on D/G are representing their point is a civil and well behaved fashion. (highly surprising but good nonetheless)

Just for the record my 45-70 load is as follows:

420 grain Hard Cast moving at a consistent 2120fps

This is shot out of a 26inch barrel not the 18 .5 inch guide guns so I do get over 100fps more velocity.

Energy is over 4000 foot lbs and meets the minimum standards for Buff both by caliber size and engery for most African countries. (some will dispute this).

I don't believe it's possible to push a 500 grain bullet at 2100 fps or higher in the 45-70 without SERIOUS risk to the shooter.

The recoil in my load is comparable to a .458 win. I am writing this note from Africa right now and I wish I had my trusty 45-70 with me to fend off the locals

Anyway, just thought I would weigh in.

adead horse???? why refer to the 45-70/DG conversations as that? 3 pages of posts on this oft posted topic proves interest .

jorge: do a search for "Buffalo on America's Serengetti" look for Atkinson's post where it reads....an American bison is the toughest animal on the face of the earth.......

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

Surestrike, I like the new caliber. Could it also be known as the 45/70 TrollMag?

Rusty,

Yeah i like that too. We'll combine them into the .458WTRTM (.458 White Trash Redneck Troll Mag.)

I hesitate to post this load so no bitching please and do not load this at home I have a p17 A-square copy in 45-70 loaded with 60 gr of rx 7 my rifle has a 28 in bbl and i have no signs of pressure this load will kill a buff i have no question in my mind but my 458 lott it is not.

Cats,
A Cape buffalo can be killed with a .22 L.R., an elephant with a 357 Magnum, and have been speared as a matter of fact, so your correct, but your post lacks common since, real world fact, and intelligent thinking, its an off the wall statment if you will, no disrespect intended.

I have but one question for you and the 45-70 and arrow crowd, would you stand a Cape Buffalo charge with your weapon of choice? I have stood 3.5 charges and I want nothing less than a 416 Rem or 404, and bigger is better in all probability..

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:


Just for the record my 45-70 load is as follows:

420 grain Hard Cast moving at a consistent 2120fps

And I bet you can run a marathon in under 3 hours.

Crusher,
In a bolt rifle you can bring the 45/70 up to respectable power.
Look at Garret's site for his killer rounds.






If you drop down to a 350 grain bullet you can get a whopp'n 2000 FPS!

Cats,
I have no axe to grind and just finished my first hunt for cape buff. The buff I shot, along with his companion, inadvertantly came very near to me after I shot. I fired twice more, one shot hitting the chest and shoulder and one shot going above the spin. The PH put one in the head at 5 or 6 steps that stopped him cold. THey are not indestructable, but if the buff had crashed into me on the way to the ground, I would have been maimed badly. When he did hit the ground, it was at 7 steps angling toward the PH and I. He skidded about 4 feet as well.

I would use a .375 H&H again or something bigger. The PH used a .458 Lott.

I have never shot a 45/70, but would like to. However, after seeing first hand how fast things can wrong and how quick a buff is, I would not use anything less than the .375 H&H. I would also want a back up, just in case. Even with a killing shot, which my first shot was (frontal that grazed the heart and tore out most of one lung), my buff had enough get up and go to run over me.

I would not hunt one with a bow and arrow or a spear for sure.

quote:

420 grain Hard Cast moving at a consistent 2120fps

This is shot out of a 26inch barrel not the 18 .5 inch guide guns so I do get over 100fps more velocity.

Energy is over 4000 foot lbs and meets the minimum standards for Buff both by caliber size and engery for most African countries. (some will dispute this).

yes the physics are there

"I would not use anything less than the .375 H&H. I would also want a back up, just in case. Even with a killing shot, which my first shot was (frontal that grazed the heart and tore out most of one lung), my buff had enough get up and go to run over me."

the garret tungsten can penetrate enough it is the placement.

o.k. now that most here agree that a 45-70 CAN kill a buff even a brain shot as a stopper lets get the lotto going

like i said and i'll say again, my first choice is a 416 but i will gladly do it with a 45-70

i know it hurts some feelings here that it does not take a $10,00 double gun to kill a dugga but it has been done and will be done again.

because i think the 45-70 CAN put down a buff does not make me a troll, red neck or white trash. although some of the best people i know are red necks and half the people on a.r. are red necks. i dont think red neck is a slam unless they are racist. there is nothing wrong with being country, self sufficient, god fearing flag waving or poor but there is something wrong with pompisity

Cats: I think if you read Ray's latest post, it basically duplicates what I said with respect to a 22lr, spear, etc., when it comed to killing a buff, but if he indeed said that regarding bison, well, he's wrong too.

A Bison doesn't even come close. I'm sorry but I can come to no other conclusion that you and others here that keep resusitating this dead horse are just plain THICK. I say again NOBODY's saying that killing a buff with a 45,/70 can't be done because it can, but it falls far behind the 416 and other calibers that are more suited for dangerous game. It's really very simple, if the 45/70 was such a hot round for Africa, professional hunters would have adopted it long ago. Today the only time you see 45/70s in africa just like I said previously, is with guys that want to sell it as something it's not, and folks who don't know any better. jorge

Ray: while my answer to your question is a resounding YES I do confess to owning a larger caliber.
Have I ever stood a buffalo's charge with a 45-70...no I have not. I have stood my ground on a rutting 1500# Yukon bull moose that I killed at 2 long paces with my 45-70 after hitting him on the flat of the shoulder though. As you should be aware a big bull moose is a mountain of muscle and most of it is found in the front half of the body. I also have dusted a few bison with that 45-70 ( 1897 Buffalo Classic 32" barrel)and they weren't the shoot out the pickup window type meat hunts often passed off as sporting adventures in Mt./SD/etc.
bone is bone, muscle is muscle, 2000 lbs is 2000 lbs

Surestrike: although I see myself fairly well removed from your "White Trash" racism I must ask why would you inject that type of comment into a civil message board conversation?
Have you no sense of common courtesy,man? For God's sake get some class.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
[QUOTE]i know it hurts some feelings here that it does not take a $10,00 double double gun to kill a dugga but it has been done and will be done again.

I'd like to know the maker of a $10,00 double rifle! It must be chambered for 45-70!



It has always made me wouder at the thinking of those who claim that with some magic this or that is just as good as............. Why not simply use ............. instead!

Posted by Cats:
adead horse???? why refer to the 45-70/DG conversations as that? 3 pages of posts on this oft posted topic proves interest .

I disagree CATS, I believe it proves ignorance, not intrest!

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
bone is bone, muscle is muscle, 2000 lbs is 2000 lbs

Sorry, but you are wrong. The average eland bull will equal and in some cases exceed the weight of a Cape Buffalo and somebody correct me, but I don't think they qualify as dangerous game. As for moose, sorry, but I've hunted them also and most people use a 30 cal or thereabouts. Let's see, moose in the long grass or M'Bogo? Try again. jorge

The old 45-70 is now a real killer, but there are still those who think the 458 Win. Mag. won't kill a mayfly.

Go figure.........

Hey Carmelo, what part of Africa are ya'll writing from? The Bronx?

AD

Hey, have you guys seen the size of the tits on Prince Harry's girlfriend?



Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I wonder how much more mileage I can get out of this Chelsy thing. Maybe I need some new pictures.

jorge excuse me I confess to not owning the wealth of experiences you seem so intent on proving to all that you posess with the cape buffalo. Surely someone as yourself so steeped in in fending off countless buffalo charges has much more experience than I.
Apparently you've never hunted bull moose in the rut though. The same bull moose known to charge a locomotive engine rather than cedeing the rails to that smoking iron beast. I must assume your bison hunting is limited as well. You do know the American Bison do you not? The same Bison that can hook a horse and toss him over his shoulder, the same bison that outweighs a mature cape buffalo by age 2 ok maybe 3 if he is on weak grass.
I've said it before in previous posts. The bow and arrow is efficent enough for me to hunt cape buffalo, moose,and bison with. Therefore a 45-70 will suffice for me . If you are from the school that a Searcy is the only gun "worthy" of hunting cape buffalo God bless you, enjoy. Me I'll bid on the 45-70 tuskless elephant hunt for 45-70s if Saeed oks the lotto.

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
Hey, have you guys seen the size of the tits on Prince Harry's girlfriend?


Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I wonder how much more mileage I can get out of this Chelsy thing. Maybe I need some new pictures.

Yes, we missed your moderator's touch while you were in Africa.

yes Terry those are some tits!

I hate this argument and as I said before I hesitate to post this because some prick will say im lying and that is sort of a problem for me but here goes.

using hogden or rx7. 350 grain at 2300 and 300 grain at 2500 50000 psi load for bolt or number one book loads not some far fetched bs or magic fary dust load. how is this less than 375 for killing whatever.

again and with more emphasis THIS WILL KILL WHATEVER YOU CAN HIT WELL but may not be first choice or best choice.

If it hits where you aim weighs 350 gr and travels through the air at 2300 fps from my rifle over my chronograph I will have to say it will kill the buff.

I still would use my 458 lott thats what it is for but if you want to buy the safari or just pay the triphy fee ill do it with 45-70 because i can and dont give me some far flung 22 wmr spear or bow bs
the 45-70 will work but why wold i use it if i have so many better choices.

Crusher: I agree 100% with you!
I own a 458 lott as well a mdl 70 375 H&H both good rifles for buffalo. they'd be the 2 I'd pack for my trip for buffalo. BUT if I was limited to just 1 of my 45-70s I would not hesitate to tkke it either.
Hell! I might even give it to a tracker to hold for me while I try to stick a dugga boy in the ribs with a pointed stick from my bow!

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
....
using hogden or rx7. 350 grain at 2300 and 300 grain at 2500 50000 psi load for bolt or number one book loads not some far fetched bs or magic fary dust load. how is this less than 375 for killing whatever.

again and with more emphasis THIS WILL KILL WHATEVER YOU CAN HIT WELL but may not be first choice or best choice.

If it hits where you aim weighs 350 gr and travels through the air at 2300 fps from my rifle over my chronograph I will have to say it will kill the buff. ...

Those 300 gr and 350 gr .458" diameter bullets are lacking in sectional density to be optimum for Buff hunting. You may not get the needed penetration to reach the vitals.

.458"
300 gr SD = .204
350 gr SD = .238

.375" 300 gr SD = .305
.416" 400 gr SD = .330
.458" 500 gr SD = .341


One thing that I seem to find is that many of the .45-70 supporters do not realize that this level of ballistics, a 350 gr bullet at 2100 to 2200 fps out of a .45-70, is really nothing new.


.450 Nitro for Black Powder Express rifles
350 gr bullet at 2150 fps (Kynoch current loading. I think the original Nitro for Black load used a 365 gr bullet.)
This is the lighter nitro loading of the .450 cartridge for black powder Express rifles.
http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/

These ballistics weren't considered adequate for dangerous game hunting back in the "good old days" and they aren't optimum ballistics for dangerous game hunting now. The Brits knew about this level of ballistics long before shooters here in the U.S. started hot loading the .45-70 to increase its performance.

Just my two cents worth....

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Crusher: I agree 100% with you!
I own a 458 lott as well a mdl 70 375 H&H both good rifles for buffalo. they'd be the 2 I'd pack for my trip for buffalo. BUT if I was limited to just 1 of my 45-70s I would not hesitate to tkke it either.
Hell! I might even give it to a tracker to hold for me while I try to stick a dugga boy in the ribs with a pointed stick from my bow!

stick it to em cats!

i am going to practice my bow at 50 25 and 5 yards and see how fast i can get off three aimed shots under four inches to simulate a charging bull with the goal of under 4 seconds

Y'all be sure and post some pictures of those bad boys when ya get em!

Cats: Actually my experience is quite limited. You've answered your own question, but apparently your grasp of the queen's english is lacking. Did you even bother to read my post? I never said you couldn't do it, just it it wasn't adequate and it certainly doesn't even come close to a 416 much less a 458. You are talking about a case that barely holds 55grs!! As to your bison/moose comparisons, haven't hunted bison (nor do I want to) and I do have some experience with moose, and your analogy of comparing a moose and a bison to a cape buff, it's just no supported by the facts, but don't let those get in the way. jorge

jorge: one item I do think you and I agree upon is Mr. Ray Atkinson's knowledge of cape buffalo, alsohis claim to have stood 3.5 charges from them. Do we not?
Was it not him that called the American bison ".....the toughest animal on the face of the earth..."???????????
As for your esteemed knowledge of facts I suggest you do some reading on the bison. It is very well documented how they treat/treated horse flesh.

how do you stand .5 of a charge? interesting. I'll let Ray tackle this one I think. jorge

.5 charge is when you run half way through

Faucett I do not support huntin g buff with 45-70 22wmr spears rocks slings or bows when i hunt them it is with 458 lott .
but there are people here that would use 450 2 in and think thats great while they scoff at 45-70 and the sd and bc are not without merrit I like to use the info gained
WHERE THE METAL MEETS THE MEAT!
SO one more time no 45-70 is not myh choice for buff or any other but to say it will not work because your calculator says so or the load books say so is not exactly scientific evedince



The bumble bee flys anyway!

saeed...what say you about the lotto?

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:
He is getting his bullets mixed up. Tell him what he means is that he might get 2100 fps with a 45-70 with a FOUR HUNDRED grain bullet.

Boy, I hate to get into this again and I don't know what all has been or will be said but from where I sit I can say the old 45/70 is a great caliber, actually it is three calibers. I'll explain: 1) The original 45/70 BP load or equivalent is all you should ever even think about using in the trapdoor and the like, and it was this cartridge that started the splendid reputation of the 45/70 2) Early 'hot' loads for the big lever guns. The Winchangers and the Marlins, upped the performance of the 45/70 and these loadings should NEVER be used in the Springfield or the like. 3) the 'modern' hot loads, safe only in the likes of the Ruger No 1 or maybe the Siamese Mauser (I'd really want to know more about these before using it) and maybe the
Browning repros. These last loads move the 45/70 into the realm of the 458 Winchester. But after all the loads I've sent myself and seen sent downrange, why bother? A couple of facts here: The 45/70 works 'as is' so why try and redo it? I've seen a lot of really hot loads fired out of the 45/70 and believe me, 2150-2200fps with the 405 gr bullet is possible but it ain't easy. And the price you will pay in recoil etc is very high. I have not seen very much the 45/70 with the 405 moving along at 1600 FP won't do a number on and it changes a dragon at 2000fps+ into virtual pussy cat.
If you are bound set and determined to get yourself killed and blow up a rifle, have at it. I love the 45/70 and I shoot one as much as possible. A DGR it ain't and I don't think it should be - if you need a DGR, get one and learn to use it. Hell, you could haul coal in a Cadillac but it ain't a coal truck, is it? Save a lot of possible grief in the process. I have often wondered what a reputable PH would say if you showed up to hunt safari with a 45/70? Anyone here know the answer to that?

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
adead horse???? why refer to the 45-70/DG conversations as that? 3 pages of posts on this oft posted topic proves interest .

Perhaps because of my experience of Deja Mooo - the feeling that you have heard the same bull before...

/Marterius

Conley Precision Cartridge

45/70 Gov't Ruger #1 Ballistic Tables



Bullet Type & Weight Muzzle Velocity / Energy 100 Yard 200 Yards 300 Yards 400 Yards 500 Yards
300 Gr. Barnes O (Spire Point) 2300 / 3523 +3.87 / 1949 / 2529 +0.00 / 1639 / 1789 -16.94 / 1377 / 1263 -52.42 / 1175 / 920 -112.85 / 1049 / 732
300 Gr. HP 2300 / 3523 +4.14 / 1899 / 2401 +0.00 / 1554 / 1609 -18.72 / 1276 / 1084 -58.97 / 1092 / 794 -127.56 / 981 / 641
300 Gr. Nosler Partition 2260 / 3402 +4.30 / 1867 / 2322 +0.00 / 1532 / 1562 -19.32 / 1261 / 1059 -60.64 / 1084 / 783 -130.61 / 977 / 636
350 Gr. Hornady JRN 2200 / 3761 +4.72 / 1796 / 2506 +0.00 / 1458 / 1651 -21.30 / 1196 / 1111 -66.80 / 1041 / 842 -142.52 / 944 / 692
405 Gr. JFP 2150 / 4105 +4.70 / 1796 / 2865 +0.00 / 1494 / 1981 -20.47 / 1248 / 1383 -63.36 / 1086 / 1047 -134.97 / 985 / 861
400 Gr. Barnes O (Spire Point) 2100 / 3916 +4.05 / 1903 / 3216 +0.00 / 1720 / 2628 -15.88 / 1554 / 2145 -46.15 / 1404 / 1751 -94.16 / 1273 / 1438
500 Gr. Hornady Round Nose 1800 / 3597 +6.35 / 1569 / 2731 +0.00 / 1367 / 2075 -25.03 / 1203 / 1607 -74.16 / 1090 / 1318 -151.78 / 1010 / 1132

some good info for 45-70 loads