I vote on moving this thread to the miscellaneous forum or even better to worldshooter.com.

45/70 in a lever gun is an effective tool for big bears. I often carry a short, lightweight Winchester lever rifle when fishing in areas w/ big bears. I understand that Phil Shoemaker does the same thing and I think it's fair to say he has as much experience w/ big bears as anyone.

This is a link to User comments and field experience w/ Buffalo Bore Ammo. There are comments and photos of various game animals including African game taken. Phil Shoemaker has a short comment in there as well:

http://www.buffalobore.com/hunts/Default.htm

I've been using a 350gr bullet in the 2100fps range. I've seen a few 400gr loads in the 2000fps range, but not a 500gr load @ 2100fps. I think the guys at Wild West Guns did some testing w/ their proprietary stuff during a culling operation on bison. I seem to recall they were able to get lengthwise penetration. But, I don't see it is a viable replacement for the 416Rigby or 458Winchester.

Gary

MAC all that big chest thumping chatter and you failed to mention cape buffalo die each year from arrow shafts,and a bump from an auto,etc.
"...bands of steel muscle..." you read too much! I have never doubted a buff's makeup or strenght, but surely you haven't allowed yourself to believe they alone are constructed as such.
See I knew you'd read that

Mac: Great post, those commnets about a bear's skeletal architecture being stronger than a buffalo just about covers that idiot's level of expertise.But we are all wasting time with this troll. At least we got him to admit there are better rifles out there than the 45/70 for buffalo, bear and elephant. Hey cats, you say you've been to africa and hunted Alaska. Let's see some pictures and outfitters/PHs you hunted with. With your 45/70 of course. jorge

quote:

Posted 04-08-2005 11:44 AM - Originally posted by cats:
Faucett what makes you so certain others don't peg you for a wannabe?
Have you ever given serious thought that many posters here are casual African hunters to begin with? Comments such as you made refer to anyone whom does not list African species at the forefront of their hunting goals only proves your shallow egotism.
I myself have only hunted Africa once to date, though I've hunted extensively throut NA. In truth I enjoyed my mountain hunts on my homeland than I did my trip to Africa. not to say i won't go back to Africa, hell i've got the deposits paid as I type.

quote:

Posted 05-07-2005 6:39 PM - Originally posted by cats:
I've never been to Africa ,at least not to hunt. Yesterday at a 4th cookout I mentioned I am going soon getting some strange looks and questions.
My favorite: You're not going to shoot a kangaroo are you? This from a 28 year old college grad.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp...1043/m/408104903/p/4

quote:

-------------------------
Kathi Posted 10-07-2005 2:55 PM

Cats,

Send me a PM with your phone number. We can discuss flight options and the cost of business class tickets.

Kathi

kathi@wildtravel.net

-------------------------

cats Posted 10-07-2005 5:03 PM

It is sent, thanks

-------------------------
From this thread

quote:

DRG Posted 29-06-2005 7:50 PM
Our buddy Wynwood was on an AOL IP..the same block that CATS is now logging in under. Let me say I have no proof CATS is another reincarnation of Wynwood, I am just pointing out the trouble you have trying to ban an IP block, and often when you log out and then back in the ISP will give you a new IP (at least the last few digits).

It's not an exact science.

Sorry CATS to use you as an example, but all your posts to date on our forum seem to be in topics that contain Wynwood.

Probably just coincidence.

Don

From this thread

So cats, did you go on your first hunt in Africa between July 10 and August 4 of this year? You sure seemed to be asking Kathi about tickets rather late (on July 10) if you've already been and come back. How long have you been back from your first hunting trip to Africa? How about posting some pics from your hunt?

-Bob F.

Bingo, Bob, well done! let see "mr. pussy" get out of explaining his "hey I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it." Hey, I went to africa but I've never been there." What a buffoon. jorge

jorge what part of I'd like to meet you out back in the alley are you afraid of/
Why can't you simply disagree without all the name calling buffoon/
I've NEVER stated anywhere that I thought the 45-70 is the only DG rifle ever produced. Ah, I think I've even as much as stated I own a Lott and a 375 that would be my first to picks to go for buffalo.
Yes I've traveled to Africa, several times on business. Even made a few kills between meeting and dinner but I don't consider that "hunting Africa"

MAC
Have to disagree with you buddy.

.458 caliber is legal or Buff in EVERY country you can hunt buff. The other factory determining legality is Engery measure in joules or foot pounds. I am not sure of every countrys minimums but I believe there for the most part right around 3900foot pounds.

You've said in the past that the laws in most countries regulate manufacturers published energy levels but I would challenge you to produce some evidence of that....

If you would please?
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by grizzinater:
i realize you cannot get the fps out of the 45/70 as you can with a 458wm or lott. Heres my question-Will a 500grain fmj solid going 1600fps penetrate more than a 458 win mag 500grain solid.

...............NO! That 1600 fps is at the end of the barrel not at the Buffalo, and it isn't enough even off the end of the rifle, unless everything is perfect! Cape Buffalo, seem to have a knack for pushing things out of the "perfect" catagory.

All this discussion, if you can call it that, is simply nonsense. The 45-70 is illegal in every country, where they exist, to hunt Cape Buffalo. There is a reason for that law, that seems to fall on deaf ears with the 45-70 advocates. Even the 458 Win Mag is not well designed for this purpose, and it has more powder capacity then the 45-70, and is straining to get any speed with a 500 gr bullet.

There is no arguement, that the 45-70 WILL kill a cape Buffalo, it will,but so will a .22 lr, but that fact doesn't mean either of them is a Buffalo chambering, no matter the rifle type! There is nothing magic about Garrett ammo other than the fact so many have been taken in with it's claims! It is even anemic 45-70 ammo, and many good handloads are far more suited to Buffalo than Garrett ammo, but all fall short of being a real choice, for that persuit!

All this was started by a action anyway, so believe what ever you want! I believe it is better than a prayer, but not much. NOW! On Brown Bear it make more sense, and the Lever action is most likely the best action type for the alders, and willows of Alaska. Still I'd far rather have somthing like a 470 NE double, with 500 gr North Fork cup points @ 2150 fps, if I'm going into the bushes with one that is gut shot, and looking to get revenge! In the open the 45-70 with good bullets, of around 400 grs would be OK,on the bear, but a 375 H&H with a 300 gr Swift a-frame @ 2550 fps would be much better, for the bear, or certainly better for Cape Buffalo, than anything in a 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:
I vote on moving this thread to the miscellaneous forum or even better to worldshooter.com.

WOW.... I knew it wouldn't be long before some dip s h i t dragged my name or forum into this thread in a negative forum..

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
I am writing this note from Africa right now and I wish I had my trusty 45-70 with me to fend off the locals

Are you still in Africa? Hopefully hunting somewhere?

Hey, have you guys seen the size of the boss on this buffalo?



Regards,

Terry

Hey, have you guys seen the size of ...



Regards,

Terry

-Bob F.

an article from American handgunner

In the early 1980s a number of us hunted Africa with the .45-70 Contender quite successfully. SSK Contenders took all of the big animals including eland, buffalo, rhino and elephant with the 500 grain bullet. I believe Ray Guarisco was the first in modern time to take a bull elephant with the .45-70 using a Contender, in about 1985.

I distinctly remember one incident when I was helping track down a Cape Buffalo wounded by a rifle hunter. It was nearly dark and the buff presented itself to me at an angle. I shot for his spine at the shoulder and rocked him. A patch of white showed where I had hit his previously invisible horn. My next shot avoided the horn and struck his spine dropping him instantly. Later that night examination showed the first bullet had penetrated his horn and shoulder yawing as it went through and came close to cutting his lung fully as it was traveling sideways as it passed through, stopping in his stomach. I've witnessed penetration of over six feet with the 500 Hornady bullet in large animals from the 14" Contender when only minor bones were struck.

this fron a 45-70 HANDGUN

another one from american handgunner


This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.

Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.

We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.

For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.

Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.

Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.

Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.

Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.

Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.

As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.

Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".

The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.

Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.

Other Cartridges

The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.

We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.

How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.

Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".

We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.

This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.

Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!

Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.

The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.

Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.

"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27"
.480 Ruger 325 gr. XTP 1,350 fps 17"

My, My, what a lovely set of bosses. Although they are probably soft so much the better.

read this all the way please...

go to this web page foor the full disertation and graphs....if you dare

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#solids



6. Large-Bore Bullets

Of some interest is the compared performance of some notably larger calibers, presumed to be proportionately more effective, particularly in terms of penetration (see Table and Figure).

Observe that the potent 45-70 yields very similar penetration as compared to the .308 caliber bullets examined in detail and generally less than the medium bore loads described in the preceding table. Necessarily these .458 caliber bullets typically produce wound tracks larger in diameter than produced by smallbore projectiles, but not evidently than medium bore bullets when the effect of generally higher velocities is considered (and compare the .458-300 grain Barnes X-Bullet at 1930 fps with the .284-150 grain Swift Scirocco described earlier).

Although most of these loads produce similar velocities, the two 403 gr Trophy Bonded bullets (an old design very similar to Barnes copper tubing bullets) exhibit the same penetration with different impact velocities, consistent with the observed behavior of .308 caliber bullets. This is further borne out by the 350 grain Hornady FN bullets in my testing at velocities 500 fps apart, where similar depths of penetration are found although the cavities produced are quite dissimilar. In contrast, when there is little or no expansion they penetrate roughly twice as deeply.

Jamison indicates in the reference that the 350 gr Hornady RN soft points yawed during penetration and were recovered in a base forward orientation. This curious result (from 2 shots) differs considerably from the behavior of the slower (1765 fps) and faster (3000 fps) tests. Probably the jacket failed to deform evenly; the photograph seems to demonstrate this failure. Nevertheless the penetration is the highest among tests of this bullet and the cavity produced must have been of respectable dimensions, so it is difficult to characterize the result as a failure. Surprisingly, the Barnes Original 300 gr failed to deform at a very high (for the 45-70) velocity of 1992 fps; only the exposed lead nose was scraped away. Deep penetration and probably a larger wound path was created by the similarly non-deforming Remington 405 gr soft point, but this had an impact velocity of only 1103 fps.

In my own testing two bullets were recovered in a sideways or base forward orientation: the 300 grain Barnes X-Bullet at both 1400 fps (sideways) and 1930 fps (reversed) and the low velocity Hornady 350 grain Interlock FN. The latter bullet is a new design very similar to the older round nose bullet, apparently in response to the demands of Marlin users who were concerned about the round nose impacting the primers in a tubular magazine. This bullet must be seated below the crimping groove to feed in a Ruger No. 1, which is not Hornady's fault, but Ruger's for making such a short throat, a long time problem on that rifle. The high velocity load created a gigantic cavity that exploded outward toward me (rather like the .338-275 Speer semi-spitzer had done at high impact velocity), but the bullet retained 93% of its weight! I am surprised that the X-Bullet lost its petals at the relatively low velocity of 1930 fps, but its cavity is gaping and so the walls are unusually thin. It could be improved by a narrower taper so that the petals opened but held on. It did not penetrate as I expected but it made a respectable hole. This bullet will expand at very low velocities as evidenced by the second shot at 1400 fps, which performed very similarly to a magnum handgun bullet.

The Speer 350 gr. FN is billed as a high velocity soft nose for the .458 magnum, so I did not expect much expansion at the 1930 fps impact velocity out of the .45-70, but it performed well. It also performed well at a near muzzle velocity (from the .458 Winchester Magnum) of 2400 fps, but at a very low impact velocity of approximately 1400 fps it apparently did not expand or did so only to a very slight degree and unfortunately exited the test box (Incidentally, this is the sort of hole that would be made by a non-deforming hardcast flatnose bullet, hence the need for a very broad flat point). It is a good bullet in the .45-70 where deeper penetration is required but needs a minimum velocity probably closer to 1600 to 1700 fps for expansion. I was impressed by the 500 grain Hornady RN softpoint at the rather modest velocity of 2000 fps. It cavitated a surprisingly large hole yet achieved just over 20 inches of straight-on penetration.

In the .450 Ackley Magnum the 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet performs about as well as the 500 grain Hornady soft point, and the 500 grain X-Bullet penetrates significantly deeper. Observe that the 600 gr Barnes Original bullet fired from a .460 Weatherby Magnum penetrates less deeply than the Hornady 500 gr softpoint, despite its greater sectional density; here being a classic example of the misleading character of the calculated sectional density of an unfired bullet as applied to its terminal effect. The extremely high velocities of the .460 Weatherby Magnum (though these impact velocities are practical muzzle velocities, not reasonable field conditions) removes bullets of normally robust construction from consideration as projectiles of choice to be used against heavy game at close range, though their use at extended ranges is perfectly acceptable. Again, magnum cartridges do not necessarily provide more killing power, merely extended range (and in this case a potential close range non-engagement zone for some loads).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reported Data for Large-Bore Rifle Bullets
Caliber / Cartridge Bullet Type / Mass Impact
Velocity Expanded
Diameter Depth of
Penetration Retained Weight Ref
.444 Marlin 240 gr Remington Softpoint 2350 fps
13 in 204 gr / 85 % 5

250 gr Nosler Partition 2315 fps 0.627 in 20 in 242 gr / 97 % 5

265 gr Hornady FP 2253 fps
17 in 229 gr / 86 % 5

270 gr Speer Gold Dot 2240 fps 0.707 in 17 in 204 gr / 76 % 5

280 gr Speer Gold Dot 2310 fps
21 in 246 gr / 88 % 5

300 gr Speer Plated Soft Point 2201 fps
20 in 293 gr / 98 % 5

300 gr Hornady XTP HP 2205 fps
18 in 226 gr / 75 % 5

315 gr RCBS Cast SWC 2041 fps
32 in 301 gr / 96 % 5

335 gr Buffalo Bore Cast LBT FN 2078 fps
36+ in 318 gr / 95 % 5
.45-70 Springfield 300 gr Barnes Original FN 1992 fps 0.458 in 30 in 293 gr / 98 % 1

300 gr Hornady HP 2173 fps 0.710 in 11.5 in 208 gr / 69 % 1

300 gr Sierra HP 2001 fps 0.740 in 10.5 in 228 gr / 76 % 1

300 gr Federal HP 1653 fps 0.700 in 10 in 232 gr / 77 % 1

300 gr Remington HP 1868 fps 0.700 in 10 in 193 gr / 64 % 1

300 gr Winchester HP 1696 fps 0.670 in 15 in 264 gr / 88 % 1

300 gr Barnes X-Bullet 1400 fps 0.790 in 9.9 in 300 gr / 100 % 6

300 gr Barnes X-Bullet 1930 fps 0.635 in 13.5 in 222 gr / 74 % 6

350 gr Trophy-Bonded Spitzer 1750 fps 0.760 in 16 in 347 gr / 99 % 2

350 gr Trophy Bonded FN 1765 fps 0.852 in 15 in 336 gr / 96 % 2

350 gr Hornady Interlock RN 1942 fps 0.670 in 18 in 284 gr / 81 % 1

350 gr Hornady Interlock RN 1765 fps
14.5 in 215 gr / 62 % 2

350 gr Hornady Interlock FN 1400 fps 0.702 in 13.8 in 332 gr / 95 % 6

350 gr Hornady Interlock FN 1900 fps 0.871 in 12.1 in 327 gr / 93 % 6

350 gr Speer Hot-Cor FN 1400 fps NA 20.3+ in NA 6

350 gr Speer Hot-Cor FN 1930 fps 0.644 in 16.3 in 310 gr / 89 % 6

350 gr SAECO FN 2250 fps 0.458+ in 25 in
7

400 gr Speer FN 1758 fps 0.950 in 11 in 364 gr / 91 % 1

403 gr Trophy Bonded RN 1730 fps 0.850 in 15.5 in 401 gr / 99 % 2

403 gr Trophy Bonded RN 1900 fps 0.936 in 15.5 in 400 gr / 99 % 2

405 gr Remington SP 1103 fps 0.458 in 28 in 406 gr / 100 % 1

405 gr Remington SP 2000 fps 0.87 in 13.8 in 390 gr / 96 % 8

415 gr LBT LFN 1850 fps 0.458+ in 23 in
7
.458 Winchester Magnum 350 gr Speer Hot-Cor FN 2400 fps 0.721 in 14.5 in 256 gr / 73 % 6

500 gr Hornady Interlock RN 2000 fps 0.770 in 20.2 in 437 gr / 88 % 6
.450 Ackley Magnum 400 gr Barnes X-Bullet

23 in
4

465 gr A-Square Dead Tough 2340 fps
25 in 419 gr / 90 % 4

500 gr Hornady Interlock RN 2370 fps
23 in 425 gr / 85 % 4

500 gr Barnes X-Bullet

28 in
4
.460 Weatherby Magnum 350 gr Hornady Interlock RN 3000 fps
10 in 113 gr / 32 % 3

500 gr Hornady Interlock RN 2550+ fps 0.950 in 24 in 365 gr / 73 % 3

600 gr Barnes Soft Point RN 2300+ fps 1.265 in 22 in 440 gr / 73 % 3
.460 Weatherby Magnum 350 gr Hornady Interlock RN 3000 fps
10 in 113 gr / 32 % 3
.470 Nitro Express 500 gr Woodleigh RN 2125 fps
23.6 in 493 gr / 99 % 8
.500 A-Square 570 gr Woodleigh RN 2500 fps 1.625 in 14.5 in
7



1 -- Rick Jamison, "Big Power at Close Range", Shooting Times, May 1997.

2 -- John Wooters, "Premium Big-Bore, Big-Game Bullets", Guns & Ammo, December 1984, pp. 61,91.

3 -- Bob Hagel, ".460 Weatherby", Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges, Wolfe Publishing, Inc., 1991, pp. 328 - 332.

4 -- Independent testing by Øyvind Hannisdal

5 -- Brian Pearce, "The Underrated .444 Marlin", Handloader, Wolfe Publishing, Inc., No. 206, August-September, 2000, pp. 62 - 67.

6 -- Independent testing by the author

7 -- Kent M. Batchelor, "Penetration Test at the Linebaugh Seminar", http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm.

8 -- Independent testing by Michael Strandberg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Legend - (L-R) Some tested .458 caliber bullet designs: (1, 2) 300 gr Barnes X-Bullet (unfired and recovered from 1930 fps), (3 - 5) 350 gr Hornady Interlock FN (unfired and recovered from 1400 and 1900 fps), (6, 7) 350 gr Speer Hot-Cor (unfired and recovered from 1930 fps)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Legend - (L-R) A range of .458 caliber bullets (recovered from wetpack tests): (1, 2) 300 gr Barnes X-Bullet (1400 fps and 1930 fps), (3, 4) 350 gr Hornady Interlock FN (1400 fps and 1900 fps), (5, 6) 350 gr Speer Hot-Cor (1930 fps and 2400 fps), (7) 500 gr Hornady Interlock RN (2000 fps)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IV.c. A Model for Terminal Performance

Experiments described in the preceding two chapters demonstrate several things about the terminal performance of bullets:
Non-deforming bullet penetration and cavitation is described by a nearly linear function of velocity, mass and represented frontal area (or diameter)
Deforming bullet penetration is weakly dependent upon impact velocity and varies over a narrow range
Bullet deformation depends upon a critical upset velocity determined by material and design features
Bullet deformation generally occurs within a relatively short penetration distance
For increasing velocities above the critical upset velocity, penetration is more likely to decrease than to increase

Any model which attempts to predict bullet penetration and cavitation must account for these observations. An understanding of what is taking place is a necessary starting point for developing a realistic model. In non-hydrodynamic (non-deforming) penetration the depth of penetration and cavity diameter are a linearly increasing function of velocity, since bullet diameter and mass are constant (note that the tissue in the target is in hydrodynamic flow until penetration stops). For deforming bullets, there is an initial phase of penetration in which no deformation occurs. This is usually termed the upset distance. Deformation occurs suddenly due to pressures exceding the flow stress of the bullet. The penetration of the upset distance is a reflection of the resistive forces (molecular friction) within the bullet. The hydrodynamic (deforming) penetration phase is very brief and at the conclusion of this phase the bullet will have traveled only a short distance. The stronger the bullet, the longer a distance it will travel while it deforms. Correspondingly, at higher velocities a bullet will travel a shorter distance as it deforms due to more rapid deformation. The final phase of penetration is non-hydrodynamic, starting at the threshold critical velocity, and accounts for most of the penetration and cavitation of a bullet. This explains why a deforming bullet has a nearly constant penetration over a wide range of impact velocities and frequently a diminishing penetration with increasing velocity. Penetration terminates when the velocity reaches a point where the flow stress of the tissue exceeds the stagnation pressure of the penetration. Elastic penetration may occur at this stage, wherein the bullet travels forward some distance before the tissue returns to its original position. This is similar behavior to temporary cavitation but occurs in the axial direction and is most commonly recognized in a bullet being found "lodged under the skin" on the far side of an animal.

Very nice Bob F. I'd rather study her stats than a frikkin 45-70.

In case you're into Italian versions of the .45... uh what was that other number?

is that monica belucci??

For those who haven't thought that this thread was fully entertaining, check out the Gangsta Rap 45/70 Shimizzle .

Put's a whole new spin on it, don't it.

-Steve

thats funny stuff man...fo shizzle!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
is that monica belucci??

Yes it is. And she's a true classic unlike the pretenders other's have posted pix of. Kinda' like the .45-70 thinkin' it's equal to a .416 Rigby or .458 WinMag. It'd do the job, but not in a classic manner.

paladin...you have good taste but that reef honey makes me drool

b.t.w. read my posts...the 45-70 will never be a lott 416 rigby or 458 win mag. but i still love it.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
b.t.w. read my posts...the 45-70 will never be a lott 416 rigby or 458 win mag. but i still love it.

Something we can all agree on before we move on to the CRF vs PF argument.

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:


WOW.... I knew it wouldn't be long before some dip s h i t dragged my name or forum into this thread in a negative forum..

vintage carmen...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i love pissing contests

my 45-70 guide gun is my favorite! its fun to shoot handles well and dangerous stuff under 100 yards (all dangerous game is under 100 yards)dies with little tracking. the "miracle" is in the bullet material shape and speed. hard above 400 grains with big meplats and moderate velocities is the magic if i am hunting in the timber with scary animals around i want this gun. if i am out of the trees and can hit an animal undisturbed i can get away with a 270 on a big bear ect. i feel safer with this reliable fast acting combo knowing i can put 5 rounds in a bear in 10 seconds if i am not distracted by the pee running down my leg. i can put out a bears lights with one hard cast through the skull. thats all i need. some good reading is the june issue of shooting illustrated. on the cover is a guide gun with the words bear buster. this guy put two of garrets 540 grain hard casts lengthwise through a large black bear. this is the perfect set up just like mine, 2.5 power leupold scout scope backed up by a ghost ring set up. but more impressive than that is the story about the guy who killed two cape buffs with une shot! i am not a "true believer" fanatic, but this is my favorite gun and hunting cape buffs i will pick the 416 but deer out to 250 yards and elk out to 200 yards bear and bison out to 150 yards this gun will do it. its not perfect and has limitations but i love it. thus my call sign "boom stick"

I have the same gun set up the same way. I shoot 300 grain nosslers doing 1900fps. I plan to switch to 400 grain Barnes X at about 1800fps when I run out of Nosslers.

I killed a Moose up here in Maine last year with it. One shot at 175 yards full pass through both shoulders. I have shot deer in CA with it and a few coyote. I will use it on a black bear this year if my far bait stand gets
hit and I can't use the bow.

I only wished that I could of gotten stainless like they sell now, things need to be cleaned and oiled well up here.

I on

quote:

6. Large-Bore Bullets

After reading a whole bunch of this stuff, a few things really stick out>

45-70 is really marginal on dangerous game.
However, it is capable of being carried in a light, gun, that's easily packed, usually a guide gun, lever action.

Now, everyone takes great joy in bashing the 45-70, but, the 45-70 you have with you is much better then the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, or 458 Lott you left in the truck, or by the tree, because it was twice as heavy, and bigger, then the guide gun.

So, all that said the real question is:

WHAT PRACTICAL DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE CAN YOU CARRY THAT GIVES YOU THE SAME WEIGHT, NUMBER OF ROUNDS, AND PORTABILITY, OF A 45-70 GUIDE GUN?

Solutions I've scene are a Ruger 1 in .510 Wells, with an 18" barrel. Theory here is if the first shot doesn't kill the bear, the shooter won't notice being eaten, cause he's knocked out.

I'm open to suggestions, but, I think the end result is going to be that it's sort of like the 38/357 snubbie for self-defense:
the 38 you have with you, that has 5 shots, and weighs 12 oz is far better then the full-size 45 you can't conceal, and stays on the nightstand, or in the truck.

Finally, maybe the real answer to this question is if you are going to be under gunned, at least
have 5-6 shots, and a packable revolver. A redhawk 454, or 480, or even SA Ruger .500 on your hip would be better then a rifle you don't carry.

Finally, if you can't come up with a gun that does what the 45-70 guide gun does, quit bashing it. It's a heck of a lot better then a big stick...


G

quote:

Finally, maybe the real answer to this question is if you are going to be under gunned, at least have 5-6 shots, and a packable revolver. A redhawk 454, or 480, or even SA Ruger .500 on your hip would be better then a rifle you don't carry.

GS

I agree with this 100%. It has been a discussion for along time in regards to fishing in Alaska. Which is better, a shotgun/rifle propped on the bank or in the boat or a pistol on your hip.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

Finally, maybe the real answer to this question is if you are going to be under gunned, at least have 5-6 shots, and a packable revolver. A redhawk 454, or 480, or even SA Ruger .500 on your hip would be better then a rifle you don't carry.

GS

I agree with this 100%. It has been a discussion for along time in regards to fishing in Alaska. Which is better, a shotgun/rifle propped on the bank or in the boat or a pistol on your hip.

Who in hell leaves a self defense gun proped against a tree on the bank?

My question is, which is better a pistol on your hip, or a short powerful rifle on a sling on your shoulder while fishing in Alaska? As much as I dislike the idea of a 45-70 for Cape Buffalo hunting, I find the 45-70 in it's place,properly set-up, in a 16" berreled lever action loaded with hotter than hell loads, mounted with hard ghost ring sights, on a sling on a fisherman's shoulder while fishing! IMO, it beats a shotgun, or pistol, hands down, for that purpose. I know that in Alaska most folks carry Ruger Blackhawk 44 mags on their hip at all times, and that is a good idea, when going about your daily work where both hands are needed often for work. For fishing, however, I prefere my 1895 45-70 custom TRAPPER rifle with loads that are "HOT" for even a Ruger No1. I use one of the Uncle Mike's neoprene slings that grips your shoulder and doesn't slip, while fishing. It isn't even noticeable, much less in the way, and will absolutely ruin a big bear's day, with one to six rounds!

This thread is getting onto familiar ground for me, because I lived and worked for decades in bear country. Both employment (mineral exploration) and recreation took me into some of the most-remote places on this planet, sometimes literally hundreds of miles from any road or other form of civilization.

There is no question in my mind that a thoughtfully-selected heavy rifle is superior to a handgun for defense against wild animals. HOWEVER....

Did you ever try to use an axe all day with a slung rifle? Did you ever try carrying heavy electronic instruments all day, and use them, while carrying a rifle? Did you ever try paddling a canoe, while carrying a rifle? Even when shore fishing, unless the rifle is slung across the body somehow, a proper cast is almost impossible if carrying a rifle. If the rifle is carried so that one CAN cast, it is dangerously unavailable in emergencies. How about answering a call of nature in the wilds, or doing the camp cooking, with a slung rifle? I've met a bear at the cooktent door, and prevailed at VERY close range.

The handgun is WORN, not "carried". A spill from that canoe could leave you bereft of everything except what's on one's body. What then? I ALWAYS had a gun, ammunition, firestarter and rudimentary shelter (plastic sheeting) ON MY PERSON. Water was never a problem in that country, and food can be dispensed with for a few days if need be, but fire, shelter and defense are critical, anywhere in the world.

The best solution I found was to carry a heavy handgun (and the .44 magnum is enough, with good heavy cast bullets) and to leave the camp rifle OUTSIDE CAMP a few hundred yards when leaving, so it could be picked up on the way back in. No rifle is more useless than the one in the same tent as the bear (or African fauna, for that matter).

It's not a case of "handgun OR rifle"...it's a case of using both types to our maximum benefit.They complement each other, and having both is a great comfort to me.

BruceB:

What about a short, lightweight 375? Only problem is they don't seem to come cheap...

s

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
There is no question in my mind that a thoughtfully-selected heavy rifle is superior to a handgun for defense against wild animals. HOWEVER....

Did you ever try to use an axe all day with a slung rifle?


Even when shore fishing, unless the rifle is slung across the body somehow, a proper cast is almost impossible if carrying a rifle. If the rifle is carried so that one CAN cast, it is dangerously unavailable in emergencies.


The handgun is WORN, not "carried".
It's not a case of "handgun OR rifle"...it's a case of using both types to our maximum benefit..

Bren, I agree with you in the areas you speak of, but we were not discussing cutting wood, or frying potatos, of takeing a crap, we are talking about while fishing. And I do it every year. All that is needed is the proper sling, and the short little rifle is carried on my left shoulder, I'm right handed and cast with my right hand. I have zero trouble keeping the rifle on my shoulder while fishing and wadeing in the river. I can have the rifle in action as quickly as I can the pistol, and it doesn't interfere with my casting at all.

I do carry a Ruger blackhawk 41 mag in a tanker's chest holster, when I'm moveing around camp or anything where I need both hands for chores. Addtionally, my kitchen is always 75 yds from my camp, and all food is there, and if I have left camp to fish, the little trapper rifle is with me. If I leave camp to hunt, then the 45-70 stays in camp, and I carry my 375 H&H FN Mauser bolt rifle, and the 41 mag inside my rain gear in the chest rig. For hunting we hunt in pairs, but fishing I do that alone usually.

Where we usually camp is on some of the little lakes about 40 miles west of Katmai park, and we have bear comeing through three or four a day, from the park heading back into the hills for den up. These bear are used to people haveing spent a month or more feeding on the salmon runs while folks take pictures of them. They are not timid about coming into camp with you standing right there, night or day.

All I'm saying is, I have hunted, and fished the Mulchatna basin every year since 1982, and the old rifle has always been on my shoulder while I fish.

Mac

I've never managed to figure out how to fly fish and work a river with a rifle on a sling Without having it over my neck also. I also have trouble on a 4 wheeler and slung rifles.

I know the pistol is not as good but it is better to have it handy than to have to struggle to get a rifle out of a scabbard or off of my neck.

I have never needed to use it but I came close one time as I came around a corner on a 4 wheeler and ran over a Grizzly Cub in the track. It let out a scream and I knew the mother must be in ready to rip me apart. I kept going and never saw her. If she would have been on the side and came at me the rifle in the scabbard would have been useless and only the pistol might have saved me.

quote:

41 mag inside my rain gear in the chest rig. For hunting we hunt in pairs, but fishing I do that alone usually.

Do you know what brown bears call 41 magnums?

Dental floss


G

no your not missing something, this guy is. I've heard of 45-70 approching the lower end of the 458 win mag, but the Lott!!!
500 gr bullet does not leave much room in the case for powder and the max I have ever heard of for the 500 gr in the 45-70 is 1700 fps
I own a 45-70 and the max loads for the highest pressure are 350 gr 2100 400gr at 2000 and 500 gr at 1700. and thats pusshing it.
maybe out of a 30 in barrel with a super deep throat so the bullet sits 1 mm in the case.
theres no way to reach Lott levels with the 45-70 legitimately