To go off on a bit of a tangent, WHAT is so special about "African Heat"? There are countless references as we go along on various threads about, "Yeah, but wait until you try THAT load in the (gasp) "African Heat"!!!!

I do realize that there's a lot more cool/cold weather hunting in North America than there is during hot weather, but RIGHT NOW the antelope season is opening in Nevada and the temps are well into the 100-degree-plus range. Desert bighorn are often hunted in similar temperatures, and so are a few other species, I'm sure. Most hunters of such game are using high-intensity rounds to get the flat trajectory they think is needed....not many "moderate" cartridges here.

Any handloader worth his salt is WELL aware of the possible effect of ambient hunting temps being above the temperature range at which he created his loads. 100 degrees in the USA is exactly the same as 100 degrees in Africa, and in either place it's a mighty fine idea to keep your rounds in the shade. It also behooves us to err to the moderate side, wherever we intend to use our ammunition.

Note too that a lot of the "peakiness" reputation attached to ammo in high heat began with Cordite, a long time back at the dawn of the smokeless era. We now have modern powders which are much less temperature sensitive. Even so, moderation should STILL be the watchword. Just don't keep citing "African Heat" as a bugaboo to frighten us kids.

I had my Shiloh .45-70 out this morning with blackpowder loads. It's fun, and it absolutely WILL kill anything it's pointed at....eventually. If I ever go to Africa, my .404 and .416 Rigby will go with me, and the Shiloh can guard the homefront while I'm away....

Ha! 104 (F) in Nevada is only 40 (C) in Africa. Imagine how hot 100 in Africa really is! (Hint, dip your finger in boiling water)

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
WHAT is so special about "African Heat"?

"Yeah, but wait until you try THAT load in the (gasp) "African Heat"!!!!

100 degrees in the USA is exactly the same as 100 degrees in Africa,

Note too that a lot of the "peakiness" reputation attached to ammo in high heat began with Cordite, a long time back at the dawn of the smokeless era.

Just don't keep citing "African Heat" as a bugaboo to frighten us kids.

.

Bren MK1, I agree with you, and I know what you mean by 100 Degrees African Heat. However, there are many places that are not as hot as Nevada, AZ, NM, and West Texas, and this forum sends advice to many places that never get above 85 deg. Addtionally, in the high season in Africa, the tempratures will often go to 115, to 120 degrees in Botswana, and Namibia's Kalahari. A MAX load that was worked up at 40 degrees in the fall in Colorado, or at 80 degrees in June, in Santa Fe, NM while getting ready for a September/October hunt in the Kalahari, may just be the subject often given in warning as THE AFRICAN HEAT BUGGER!

We tend to think in terms of EVERYBODY posting being where we are, and so these warnings should not apply, since we live where it is HOT. Any African loads should always be less than MAX as a rule! The same goes for the guy from Canada going to Nevada to hunt your speed goats, with his max loads.

If you want to understand African Heat simply go to the Zambezi Valley during late October. Day temps in the shade hover around 118-120. You can actually burn your hand on exposed metal during the day. But the nights are a comfortable 100 until you enter into your rondaval (aka Easy-Bake oven) climb under the mosquito netting...

Other than fiction writer Vince Lupo, are any of the 45-70 guys actually going to hunt a buffalo?

No?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Other than fiction writer Vince Lupo, are any of the 45-70 guys actually going to hunt a buffalo?

No?

I would bet most who think a 45-70 is a fine DGR, have never shot anything bigger then a whitetail with a 45-70, and most only paper!

Of course that's only a guess!

wow, you guys should spend more time in the alaska forum. how many buffs griz browns moose musk ox wapiti need to die to convince you guys

Back to the Heat for a sec....

Yep, very true, that not everyone lives where it gets on the warm side of 100 degrees. I lived in the Northwest Territories for 35 years, where 85F was indeed a VERY VERY hot day...if it ever occurred. A good number of my favorite handloads got dialed-back before I even tried them here in the Silver State. I intentionally picked some hot days for testing, and gradually worked the loads back up to where they seemed reasonable. In most cases, (about 20 different rifle calibers) I'd say that a reduction of less than five percent of the charge did the trick to my satisfaction.

Mind you, after eight years from my escape out of Canada, I'd plumb forgotten about them "different" degrees. I still get the same BS about "Yeah, but it's a DRY heat!" when talking about Nevada summer temps, where in the Territories it was, "Yeah, but it's a DRY cold"....when it was fifty degrees below zero. That "dry" stuff must be magical.

"....only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun."

quote:

wow, you guys should spend more time in the alaska forum. how many buffs griz browns moose musk ox wapiti need to die to convince you guys

Well, bears, including browns, and elk are soft skinned animals and don't have overlapping ribs and muskox are small and dumb.

the garret 45-70 tungsten flat nose is enough to do a brain shot shoulder to shoulder shot and i would think up the butt to the heart if needed. shot placement is the key.

ribs schmibs, thick skin not steel plate.

If you go after an Alaskan Brown with a 45/70, is just as ill-advised as going after buffalo or other dangerous game in africa. jorge

jeorge...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i love pissing contests

my 45-70 guide gun is my favorite! its fun to shoot handles well and dangerous stuff under 100 yards (all dangerous game is under 100 yards)dies with little tracking. the "miracle" is in the bullet material shape and speed. hard above 400 grains with big meplats and moderate velocities is the magic if i am hunting in the timber with scary animals around i want this gun. if i am out of the trees and can hit an animal undisturbed i can get away with a 270 on a big bear ect. i feel safer with this reliable fast acting combo knowing i can put 5 rounds in a bear in 10 seconds if i am not distracted by the pee running down my leg. i can put out a bears lights with one hard cast through the skull. thats all i need. some good reading is the june issue of shooting illustrated. on the cover is a guide gun with the words bear buster. this guy put two of garrets 540 grain hard casts lengthwise through a large black bear. this is the perfect set up just like mine, 2.5 power leupold scout scope backed up by a ghost ring set up. but more impressive than that is the story about the guy who killed two cape buffs with une shot! i am not a "true believer" fanatic, but this is my favorite gun and hunting cape buffs i will pick the 416 but deer out to 250 yards and elk out to 200 yards bear and bison out to 150 yards this gun will do it. its not perfect and has limitations but i love it. thus my call sign "boom stick"

jorge: now you're just talking out your ass to look for a fight! The 45-70 kills Brn Bears every spring and fall. That is a fact! So is the statement that a Brn Bear's bone structure is built better than some over stuffed mud caked boggie man bull so many of you have nightmares over.

quote:

Hey, have you guys seen the size of the tits on Prince Harry's girlfriend?

Silicone or Saline? They can't be natural can they? Who gives a rat's ass about a 45-70 stats. Lets see....at least a C cup 36 inch. Damn, quit posting those pictures. You're making me sweat and it ain't from the 105 degree heat here.

500 grains: do you want to pay my way? I'll show you quick enough how to kill a buffalo with a 45-70, Shit I'll even swallow my pride and kill some poor elephant with one just to see you eat crow!
what a few of you such as yourself and jorge don't seem to get is : Certainly we 45-70 lovers could use other calibers to do the job, but it is doing the job with a 45-70 that we love. Just as some pompus ass loves killing things with their DBL gun, thinking it is the only way to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the garret 45-70 tungsten flat nose is enough to do a brain shot shoulder to shoulder shot and i would think up the butt to the heart if needed. shot placement is the key.

Speer discontinued the tungsten solid, so unless Garrett laid in a lifetime supply, he is just selling off old inventory.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
500 grains: do you want to pay my way?

This is a common theme in the 45-70 discussions. For some reason quite a few of the fellows who advocate the 45-70 either cannot afford to pay for their own hunts, or they think that someone else ought to pay. It's sort of a welfare momma attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
500 grains: do you want to pay my way?

This is a common theme in the 45-70 discussions. For some reason quite a few of the fellows who advocate the 45-70 either cannot afford to pay for their own hunts, or they think that someone else ought to pay. It's sort of a welfare momma attitude.

ouch!

its too bad that younger less established financialy people would have the most fun and get the most out of an african safari but cannot afford it. another reason for the lotto!

i dont want to go on a safari when i am old and cannot get around anymore. i am a newly married guy with lots of expenses but i guess i could dump the wife and the american conformist middle class expenses and i will be fine to hunt the world over. hmmmmmm...she did talk back to me today i will save up and go in about 5 years on the track i am on. i think i will bring the 45-70 the rem 3600 30-06 375 h+h and the 416. maybe the 405 too

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Mickey1 a charging buff or elephant with either a bow or a 45-70 is not the topic here. But as you brought it up I will reply to you. I am not Mark sullivan nor a wannabe MS but I ask no backup, though realize the legal ramification for the company .
Pay my way and I'll hunt the buff or elephant with either weapon as well as pay a videographer's trip to record the events.
I've never killed either animal with anything but I do not lack the courage that apparently some posters here do to accomplish the hunts.
What say you, Sir? are you willing to run the camera?

cats

I'll stick to your original offer to pay your own way and I will pay mine and film it as I have offered.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by cats:
Roger: you find a place that will let me hunt both the buff and ele with a 45-70 and I'll hire and pay for the camera operator. May even bring the bow along and poke a big old non trophy ele with it too!

Anyone man enough here to run the camera? How about jorge he runs of at the mouth fairly often like in his last post.


Cats

Tell you what. I'll pay my own way. Supply the Video Camera an help with the hunt. In return you prove that the 45-70 and any Bow Arrow combo you choose is a Dangerous Game weapon.

You will do this by taking a charging buffalo with your bow, straight on, with no back up. Also a charging non-trophy Ele, straight on, with no back up with your lever action 45-70.

If you are successful we will have the tape to prove it and probably a spot on Television. If you are not, well you will still be a spot.

If a weapon will not kill under the worst conditions it is not a Dangerous Game weapon but just another toy that works, mostly.

I have read the rest of your posts and I think that your mouth is writing checks your ass won't be able to cash. A charging Ele or a charging buff is not something to dismiss lightly and they account for any number of dead people every year.

Do you know what the Black stuff between the Elephants toes is?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
How much do you have to tip if you bring a Marlin LA .45/70 loaded with hard cast flat 'point' bullets on a 7 days Cape Buffalo hunt ?

I think this is a very important question.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
500 grains: do you want to pay my way?

This is a common theme in the 45-70 discussions. For some reason quite a few of the fellows who advocate the 45-70 either cannot afford to pay for their own hunts, or they think that someone else ought to pay. It's sort of a welfare momma attitude.

I am not sure thats quite it. I'd say its either just classic trolling, or an attempt to get far enough under someone's skin that they'll get a free trip to Africa. Or maybe both.

Either way, or your way, it's still pathetic.

And I still haven't figured out what it would possibly prove anyway, so why people would continue this arguement on the basis of "proving it" is beyond me.

Cats/wynnwood,

When you were a moderator at Phil Lozano's website, did you troll this same 45-70 topic, or do you reserve it for AR?

i am fairly new here but i have a couple of questions. i realize you cannot get the fps out of the 45/70 as you can with a 458wm or lott. Heres my question-Will a 500grain fmj solid going 1600fps penetrate more than a 458 win mag 500grain solid. if so why is the marlin a bad choice? It holds 5 rounds has a quicker action than a bolt does.. i have read on ar that sometimes the slower loads penetrate deeper than faster ones of the same caliber..has anyone ever done any testing.

Cats: I don't own any doubles so once again I ask you improve on your reading and comprehension skills or try swimming at the deeper end of the gene pool, the water is more oxygenated there.

I never said you couldn't kill a brown bear with a 45/70, just that it was ill-advised when there are better calibers out there. Is that too hard for your zygot-like intelligence to comprehend? jorge

jorge go back and reread the second half of my post to 500 grains. The part that begins with:what a few of you don't seem to get....
and you type I have poor reading skills

500grains in reply to your comment about paying my way. I can readily afford to pay my way luckily for me that is not a problem. Eventually I'll smack a buffalo or two or even maybe three over in Tanzania, though I really have not interest in killing a elephant( but would consider doing it on your dime).
It is just a matter of priority to me as there are some sheep I have yet to hunt as well several NA game animals I enjoy hunting more than African game.
BTW I need not tote my 45-70 to do that shooting but with the exception of sheep where I use a 257 Roberts an an occasional wheelgun in 45 Colt I do

Jim; Thanks for the PM , now I understand the wynwood referals

Quite a few in this thread. And they all have one thing in common; They looooove their 45-70

Grizzinator, It's not simply about penetration. Mushrooming bullets cause significantly more damage to soft tissues. I would no more use a FMJ on a grizz or cat even a buffalo then I would shoot one with a field tip arrow rather then a broadhead.

FMJ rarely penetrate straight but rather tend to pinball around when bones are hit. Hard cast bullets with a flat nose are far supoerior for straight line penetration then FMJ's are.

Solids(not FMJ) were the prefered bullet for years because no soft point could be relied upon to maintain integrity. As velocites get higher more pressure is put on lead core copper jacket bullets. They start to crumble and fall apart reducing functional penetration. Years ago the only solution was a solid. Not that it was a good choice but it was the only choice in some situations. They still have their place on several species. Elephant, Rhino, Hippo, Giraffe in many cases, and for some folks(not me) Buffalo too. No way I'm choosing one for leopard, lion, or any bears.

Have you ever seen a thin skinned game animal hit with a FMJ at under lets say 2000 fps? You will not know if you even hit it, it will run off as if it were a complete miss. Even though the bullet exits you will get no reaction from that kind of bullet. The round nose of a FMJ will often push organs out of the way rather then rip through them. This means you have an animal that has just been punctured but with lower then expected internal damage. Hit a rib or any other bone and that bullt could end up anyplace. hip, neck, in a leg! they are not a predictable bullet for anything but cycling through the action in my opinion.

Modern bonded core soft point bullets are in my opinion the best bullets for hunting today. They are consistant, predictable, and have a nearly zero failure rate. I have not seen a single one yet I was dissapointed in. That's out of many hundreds of game shot and maybe 100 or more recovered bullets.

In my opinion a FMJ is the last choice for me to shoot anything with. Especially something dangerous!

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
......<snip>.....
P.S. - I wonder how much more mileage I can get out of this Chelsy thing. Maybe I need some new pictures.

Well, it's not Chelsy but....

-Bob F.

Has everyone come down with a male version of PMS=picking fights, inventing problems and dumb solutions, mindless bickering?

So what if someone wants to use the 45-70 and so what if they enjoy their guns?

It ain´t no skin off my ass...or is that nose?

I once owned a Wnchenster in .444 Marlin.

Then I grew up.

cewe,

It's been a while since we had an invasion of Trolls, Posers, Fakers and Wannabes. I guess we were do. This comes and goes in cycles every few months around here.

-Bob F.

BFaucett,

Yeah and seems that I always have to put my nose ion it...must be the estrogen in the beer I´m drinking (see post on Humor forum)...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the garret 45-70 tungsten flat nose is enough to do a brain shot shoulder to shoulder shot and i would think up the butt to the heart if needed. shot placement is the key.

ribs schmibs, thick skin not steel plate.

Absolutely that bullet can, if it is loaded in the front end of a proper case like the 458 Lott, 458 RCBS, or 450 NE,even the problematic 458 Win Mag, with porper loads! Trying this with a 45-70 is a little like trying to drive pileing with a tack hammer!

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
......<snip>.....
P.S. - I wonder how much more mileage I can get out of this Chelsy thing. Maybe I need some new pictures.

Well, it's not Chelsy but....

-Bob F.

bfaucett...

i am a healthy guy, when i scrolled down and saw that beauty i almost lost my religion and had a heart attack. you almost sent me to hell with a smile on my face

I usally do not get in on the 45/70 threads. It's an african hunting forum first off.

It seems these threads about 45/70 vers the world always migrate to other animals, like bears and deer.

Well, I've done a fair amount of hunting, Alaska about 5 or 6 times, Africa, quite a bit of western US, to many years of South Texas hunting to remember and 8 yrs seasons in a row hunting in Mexico. Not to say I've seen it all, but I've yet to see a 45/70 in any hunting camp, yet to see a guide with one. I've been in line at Holiday Air in Alaska with more hunters than I wished to count waiting to get on a plane to go hunt, with guys from all differnet walks of life, from movie stars to guys that used rent money to get there, and I've yet to see a 45/70.

I've been inline at the airport in Jburg waiting to permits signed off on and watched many hunters pull guns out of cases, and I don't recall seeing a lever gun or anything that looked like a 45/70.........but then I would know a 45/70 if it bit me on the ass.

I'm sure it's a fine round, but if its the double throw down stop anything round and the favorite of the I've never hunt in Africa/not sure if will ever get to go crowd, why does the cover of shooting times show winchesters most powerful model 94 to be a 450 Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by grizzinater:
i realize you cannot get the fps out of the 45/70 as you can with a 458wm or lott. Heres my question-Will a 500grain fmj solid going 1600fps penetrate more than a 458 win mag 500grain solid.

...............NO! That 1600 fps is at the end of the barrel not at the Buffalo, and it isn't enough even off the end of the rifle, unless everything is perfect! Cape Buffalo, seem to have a knack for pushing things out of the "perfect" catagory.

All this discussion, if you can call it that, is simply nonsense. The 45-70 is illegal in every country, where they exist, to hunt Cape Buffalo. There is a reason for that law, that seems to fall on deaf ears with the 45-70 advocates. Even the 458 Win Mag is not well designed for this purpose, and it has more powder capacity then the 45-70, and is straining to get any speed with a 500 gr bullet.

There is no arguement, that the 45-70 WILL kill a cape Buffalo, it will,but so will a .22 lr, but that fact doesn't mean either of them is a Buffalo chambering, no matter the rifle type! There is nothing magic about Garrett ammo other than the fact so many have been taken in with it's claims! It is even anemic 45-70 ammo, and many good handloads are far more suited to Buffalo than Garrett ammo, but all fall short of being a real choice, for that persuit!

All this was started by a action anyway, so believe what ever you want! I believe it is better than a prayer, but not much. NOW! On Brown Bear it make more sense, and the Lever action is most likely the best action type for the alders, and willows of Alaska. Still I'd far rather have somthing like a 470 NE double, with 500 gr North Fork cup points @ 2150 fps, if I'm going into the bushes with one that is gut shot, and looking to get revenge! In the open the 45-70 with good bullets, of around 400 grs would be OK,on the bear, but a 375 H&H with a 300 gr Swift a-frame @ 2550 fps would be much better, for the bear, or certainly better for Cape Buffalo, than anything in a 45-70.

[/QUOTE]

Faucett what makes you so certain others don't peg you for a wannabe?
Have you ever given serious thought that many posters here are casual African hunters to begin with? Comments such as you made refer to anyone whom does not list African species at the forefront of their hunting goals only proves your shallow egotism.
I myself have only hunted Africa once to date, though I've hunted extensively throut NA. In truth I enjoyed my mountain hunts on my homeland than I did my trip to Africa. not to say i won't go back to Africa, hell i've got the deposits paid as I type.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
a Brn Bear's bone structure is built better than some over stuffed mud caked boggie man bull so many of you have nightmares over.

The above quote is absolute bull shit, no other way to say it! Only a person who has never seen the bones of both would even consider saying such a thing! I doubt you have seen the bones of either, if the truth were known!

I have shot, and cut up both, and I can tell you you simply do not know what you are talking about! The leg bones of a cape buffalo, in actual lab tests, have taken 1500 lbs of hydrolic pressure to break in a press. The skin of a cape Buffalo is often used to wrap a broken leaf spring on a hunting vehicle to hold it together till it can be replaced. This hide, especially if caked with dried mud will destroy an inferior bullet on empact that would whiz right through a Brown Bear at the same speed. Then you get past the mud, and hide, you hit the steel cable muscle structure of the old buff, and the toughest bone of comparible size in the world, all before you get to anything that will kill the buffalo. So far, you have only pissed him off! You use your 45-70, and good luck to you, but, if I were you I'd stick to bears if the 45-70 is all I had to hunt with, and wanted to hunt Dangerous game. If your smart, you'll be sweating even then!

The 45-70 is a nice old nostalgic cartridge, and is fun to hunt with, but trying to make it something it isn't, doesn't make sense. I have several rifles chambered for 45-70, and I love them all, but I'm under no illusion that they are the proper tool for anything more dangerous that a Bear, and are margenal even there. I have a 1895 Marlin 45-70, straight stock, with ballard rifleing, that I had cut down to a 16" barrel, with a full length mag tube,(TRAPPER style) that I carry on a sling while fishing in Alaska. The 400 gr loads in it are loads that are "HOT" even for a Ruger No1, and would trash the rifle if used in it on a regular basis, for long. Brownies are most time encountered in the open while fishing, and this gives you time to get a few shots off before he gets to you. That's the only reason I use this rifle here! In the weeds, give me something bigger!

Don't bother to respond, unless you have a need to read your own posts, because I'm out of this craziness! BYE!