Yes, I know that canned lion hunts exist, but I had no idea that lions were singled out and priced out individually and this was publicized (not that it makes that much of a difference). I received this email yesterday from an outfitter who has operations in RSA. Turns my stomach. The prices ranged from $19K-38K. Wow, $38K to shoot a lion named Zebo in a pen.

We have several Lions (Pic's attached) available for discounted hunts during the 2010 season. These Lions are available only because of the strong possibility that Lion Hunting in South Africa will be closed in the near future. The prices are written as the name of each picture. Anyone interested, can contact me for further info. Please keep in mind that these Lions have to be taken in 2010.

A marvelous day to all!

Yep, common! Pick the one you want.

And you would be surprised at the number of 'corporate Clients* from the USA and the new money from eastern europe who would never, ever, consider a wil lion hunt with the possibility of not getting one - and having to put up with heat, dust, tsetse flies etc....

quote:

We have several Lions (Pic's attached) available for discounted hunts during the 2010 season. These Lions are available only because of the strong possibility that Lion Hunting in South Africa will be closed in the near future. The prices are written as the name of each picture. Anyone interested, can contact me for further info. Please keep in mind that these Lions have to be taken in 2010.

A marvelous day to all!

That's not lion hunting? Glen, call me, you have some 'splainin to do.

It's hunters who need to have a long hard look at themselves. There wouldn't be things like this commonly offered if there was not a big demand for it.

But it is ok. We have to all stick together as a group and say that all 'hunting' is ok as long as it is legal...........no matter how distasteful and against your personal hunting morals you find it. Well at least that is what I am told.

I will never need a lion that bad for my 'collection' that I have to kill one behind fence...............any more than I would entertain the thought of hunting black bear or grizzly behind fence, or bighorn or dall sheep............oh wait, they are doing that already.

It can't be called unacceptable or unethical as hunting because it's not hunting.

Whether it's ethical or not as wildlife management or species preservation is another question entirely.

Got the same offer-I must say those are some beautiful animals.One looks to be very blonde, an albino perhaps.Would never seen one so clean and pretty if it were free range and fighting for territory and survival.

what was the name of the outifitter?

Dries Visser. I have actually watched a lot of their videos of bow hunting, and while it's not my style (I prefer a more challenging spot and stalk approach), they seem to run a good outfit. They do also offer night-time leopard hunts, but I don't consider that quite in the same light (oh, I kill myself) as the canned lion hunting. I just can't imagine wanting to kill something badly enough to "hunt" this way. What is the trophy or reward when it hasn't been earned?

Where does it say it was in a pen? How big is the pen?

Did he happen to link a website or a way the rest of us could see the pics and read the pitch?

Post the link please.

I love this holier than though. It is ok to entice a cat (nice juciey Impala carces) to a tree specifically selected for stragic reasons and when the cat appears in the tree (miked the tree to hear) the light is brought up with a reastat covered with a red shade so as to make the cat think the moon is comming up. The rifle is on a dead solid rest with a target distance of say 30 yds. The "hunter" or maybe one should say the "shooter" has to make a very dificult shot.

Gentlemen at least be honest with yourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I love this holier than though. It is ok to entice a cat (nice juciey Impala carces) to a tree specifically selected for stragic reasons and when the cat appears in the tree (miked the tree to hear) the light is brought up with a reastat covered with a red shade so as to make the cat think the moon is comming up. The rifle is on a dead solid rest with a target distance of say 30 yds. The "hunter" or maybe one should say the "shooter" has to make a very dificult shot.

Gentlemen at least be honest with yourselves.

Please explain to us the correct way to hunt leopards.

I am not saying the above post was an incorrrect way to kill a Leopard or Lion. Just the way it is done most of the time. Some say running a cat with dogs is wrong, but to each his own. I am just tired of this "canned Lion" ragging. Anyone that kills a lion in RSA knows the way of the "hunt" and he or she is OK with it so what others think is not relative. It is all a matter of opinion and the only opnion that matters is that of the "hunter". The hunting fraternity is just like a family we will kick the shit out of each other (on ethics) but don't let a non hunter say a thing about our ethics or lack there of..

Damn I told my self to keep out of this, this time.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
It can't be called unacceptable or unethical as hunting because it's not hunting.
.

I think this statement says all that needs to be said about the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I love this holier than though. It is ok to entice a cat (nice juciey Impala carces) to a tree specifically selected for stragic reasons and when the cat appears in the tree (miked the tree to hear) the light is brought up with a reastat covered with a red shade so as to make the cat think the moon is comming up. The rifle is on a dead solid rest with a target distance of say 30 yds. The "hunter" or maybe one should say the "shooter" has to make a very dificult shot.

Gentlemen at least be honest with yourselves.

If you can't see the diffrence between shooting a wild leopard with light and shooting a (tame) cat in cage you should see a eye specialist

Well Caracal, I don'tnow about in "cages", I was speaking about "canned" i e raised to be "hunted" in a large private area. The fact of the matter I do believe you are in more danger from a "tame" cat that is not afraid of man than a wild lion that does not know "man". The wild lion is more likely to run from man vs the "tame" lion.

Larry,
I don't know that the email I got explicitly stated that they were in a pen. I assumed it based up the close-up photos of each lounging cat and the price tag affixed thereto. Maybe I was jumping to conclusions, but I sincerely doubt it.

There isn't a link I can post. It was an email.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Well Caracal, I don'tnow about in "cages", I was speaking about "canned" i e raised to be "hunted" in a large private area. The fact of the matter I do believe you are in more danger from a "tame" cat that is not afraid of man than a wild lion that does not know "man". The wild lion is more likely to run from man vs the "tame" lion.

How many tame lions have you shot to base this opinion on? Have you hunted "wild" lions as well?

Thanks Trey. I perceived it as something like a dog pen. I hope that isn't happening but one never knows. That is why I was curious.

I don't really care one way or the other on canned hunting until I someone mentioned that some canned hunting operations are selling lion parts to areas east for medicinal purposes (as a substitute for tiger). They are working to create a new market as lion hasn't been the apex cat of choice. IF they succeed in convincing the asians of using lion instead of tiger then that may have a direct impact on the wild population.

So you shoot a canned lion, they skin it and give you the hide. Where does the rest go?

Pandoras box

John, I found the back strap to be very tasty!
dogcat, only one. Like Buffalo one is enough, in fact to me one of each of the Big Six is enough. I would much rather hunt Pygmy Antelope and the spiral horned Antelope than DG. But that is just me. There are those that want to hunt Buffalo till the cows come home, oh poor choice of words. You shoot one bovine and that is enough.

Great point John. They already sell lion to people as if it's tigger.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I am not saying the above post was an incorrrect way to kill a Leopard or Lion. Just the way it is done most of the time. Some say running a cat with dogs is wrong, but to each his own. I am just tired of this "canned Lion" ragging. Anyone that kills a lion in RSA knows the way of the "hunt" and he or she is OK with it so what others think is not relative. It is all a matter of opinion and the only opnion that matters is that of the "hunter". The hunting fraternity is just like a family we will kick the shit out of each other (on ethics) but don't let a non hunter say a thing about our ethics or lack there of..

Damn I told my self to keep out of this, this time.

DOJ,
To put an apex predator in a tree (leopard) or out in the open (lion) in the light of day, at a place of your choosing...is more of a chess game, moves and counter moves.

I agree the use of light changes things a bit, but I won't criticize it either. To each his own, but trying to make a moral equivalent to canned hunting is like trying to equate dating and prostitution.

Just sayin...

Steve

Ngana, you are quite correct in your equating dating to prostution. the dating may take longer and in the long run may cost more. You end up with the same thing, a little pussy.

And here we are talking about getting a big pussy...cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Ngana, you are quite correct in your equating dating to prostution. the dating may take longer and in the long run may cost more. You end up with the same thing, a little pussy.

prof, how true. But some shoot little ones also. Like one of those guys that does videos said if you shoot a little Leopard it proves you are a better shot, or something like that. Hope to see you in Dallas, the drinks are on me Sat night, big spender I am.

Ain't we having fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I am not saying the above post was an incorrrect way to kill a Leopard or Lion. Just the way it is done most of the time. Some say running a cat with dogs is wrong, but to each his own. I am just tired of this "canned Lion" ragging. Anyone that kills a lion in RSA knows the way of the "hunt" and he or she is OK with it so what others think is not relative. It is all a matter of opinion and the only opnion that matters is that of the "hunter". The hunting fraternity is just like a family we will kick the shit out of each other (on ethics) but don't let a non hunter say a thing about our ethics or lack there of..

Damn I told my self to keep out of this, this time.

DOJ,
To put an apex predator in a tree (leopard) or out in the open (lion) in the light of day, at a place of your choosing...is more of a chess game, moves and counter moves.

I agree the use of light changes things a bit, but I won't criticize it either. To each his own, but trying to make a moral equivalent to canned hunting is like trying to equate dating and prostitution.

Just sayin...

Steve

Steve well said.

DOJ you speak like someone who took his lion from SA.
How may videos have you seen of canned lions running away beside a fence. How many videos have you seen the can lion miss the hunter on a charge.
When your shooting in a say 1000 acres pen. How many lion are there ONE. Usually not the case in the wild. Like Steve said its a chess match.
Your comment that canned lions are more dangerous than their wild cousins. I have heard before by the people trying to sell me a canned hunt.
Just don't hold water.

This is a good example of where the "If it is legal then, perforce, it is ethical" argument falls flat.

I posted an enquiry about a South African company that is looking to set up a game farm in Zambia as I was concerned that it would be another canning factory.

The biggest threat to our sport in the short term is the behavior of hunters.

These canned hunts and pen hunts have given many folks I have spoken with a distate towards South Africa.

I am not a big fan of baiting, I prefer hunting with hounds. To each his own, but I like either spot and stalk hunting, or hound hunting. In America hound hunting also creates a sense of anger. I believe the HSUS and other organizations drive this hatred.

quote:

Originally posted by Carolina Counsel:
(....) What is the trophy or reward when it hasn't been earned?

A phrase that sums it all ... but only understood by those of us who feel the hunt as the challenge of overcoming our own limitations - within which money is not one of them

By these attitudes, our beloved sport just turn out to be a contest of egos, often adorned with false stories where importance is given to "what" and not to the much honorable (& honored !) "how"....

Too bad for those who happen to kill in this way (I dare not use the word hunt here!), because I think that this trophy once hung, would surely not have much more to transmit... Not to mention the memories that it could evoke (if it even might have any to do so)

OK Jeff, yes I hunted a lioness in RSA, I also did a Rino green hunt in RSA. I have set many nights ina blind for Leopard but I took my Leopard with dogs (which by the way they also hang baits). I shot a Hippo in the Sangwe River in Binga Zim. I hunted my elephant on a management permit which means NO trophy just the fun of the hunt and providing a hugh amount of protein for a local village. I hunted my Buffalo in the Omay, Zim. which is not quite like the walk in the park hunt for Buffalo in Tanz.. You ask I will answer. I will try for the 4th straight year for Suni in Zululand in 7 weeks to complete the tiny ten of southern Africa.

Personally I don't care if you have ever hunted, if you have, any where other than the Low Country.

I don't have to justify my self or actions to you, I was just clarifying for your edification, nuff said.

One other thing I don't watch a whole lot of edited videos, I prefer to "been there done that"!

hell i tell you i have even seen lions up for shooting on facebook, what next lion up to shoot in the adult section of the classifieds.... one blonde, willing to travel, easy as pie, body to die for...

What was it the owner of this site, Saeed said? It went along the lines of...if it is legal it is ethical an the hunter's choice whether or not he chooses to do it.
DOJ,as you I too killed a lion (male) in RSA. The hunt was given to be as a gift by a friend whom went well out of his way to arrange it for me. Do you think I give a rip what some others may think of my doing it? I'd be willing to bet more than 75% of the nay sayers to canned lion hunting would suddenly have a chnage of heart if they would suddenly come into a cash windfall allowing for them to make such a hunt.

I lack an elephant to complete my Big 5 an honestly have little interest in collecting that lapel pin. As I will never choose to kill an elephant under any condition...my choice. While some others just must have a Big 5 pin to proudly display...their choice to make, too.

One of the interesting things that jumps out on this thread, and which serves as a microcosm for most of the current state of affairs in at least American modern culture, is the rise of me-centric moral relativism.

In other words, morality is relegated to the dictates of the individual's tastes and damn what others may think. Me, me, me.

And while I realize what I am about to type will never come to concensus here or anywhere else these days it is this: we have largely lost our moral compass here in the good old USA and perhaps elsewhere in the modern world as evidenced by the posts made here.

Reminds me of the old SCOTUS opinion by I forget whom when he wrote that he may not be able to define pornography but he knows it when he sees it. Moral relativism is not morality gentlemen, but rather an explanation of one's relation to a moral code. Let's not confuse the two.

On today's menu...
Would you prefer the one on the right or the one on the left?

You could turn these boys out on 1,000,00 hectares and the only hunting involved would be finding them. After that, it would just be execution.

Blacktailer, I have taken like photos of Buffalo, Rino, Elephants, Hippos etc.. What does it prove? Other than male Lions are a lazy bunch.

jsl3170, when will you next be walking on Moosehead Lake?

I do not see much difference in this park photo and the way I saw a nice male lion killed in the Selous a few years ago. The hunter whom I was sharing a camp with was less than a mile out of camp on the sandy 2 track when 3 females and a legal male were spotted padding down the track. Bwana got out of the cab and killed the male. Got back into the cab an drove up to the dead lion for photos. Granted the Selous lion was happened upon by chance an the hunter as he put it, "took what Africa offered him" but that was all the "hunt" involved in that lion kill.