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Excellent post, jsl3170. I agree with you 100%. There remains more objectivity in morality than most want to recognize. 2th Doc, I simply disagree with Saeed. I do not believe that legal equals moral. They are not always analogous. | |||
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Morality is like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder, and in the heart. jsl3170 and Carolina do you include yourselves in that group? Are you refering to Justic Potter Stewart? | |||
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With all due respect, what bullshit. With such existential sophistry, everything is moral and nothing is immoral. When we as hunters abdicate taking a stand on what most recognize as unethical hunting practices (e.g., canned lion hunts, hunting over the internet), never mind the legality, we aid and abet the anti-hunters. Internet hunting is still legal in some states, and PETA and others use it as leverage to persuade the public to limit hunter's rights. Is there anyone here that is prepared to support someone shooting an animal chained to a tree from the comfort of their computer? The bottom line is this: Supporting the ethically unsupportable, such as canned lion hunts, effectively plays into the hands of our enemies. More importantly, it is neither sporting nor 'fair chase', and as sportsmen and hunters we should have the courage to say so. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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KPete, what about hunting deer with dogs, in the north you would be shot for doing so, but in parts of the south it is Ok, what about settting in high stands in Texas watching a operating feeder for whitetails or hogs, the list goes on and on. I see you list home as DC & FL, retired beaurcrat? We have a lot of them here in southern Pa. | |||
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definition: hunting; the act of moving thru an area where animals are, uncivilized, unfettered, and able to move about freely to evade hunters. Finding such animal and shooting it is the acto of hunting. Whether fifteen minutes or fifteen days out, God places you and the animal in such proximity as to allow you to shoot the animal. definition: canned hunting; the shameful shooting of an animal artificially restrained or pen raised so as to have either no means of evading the hunter or no desire to do so. Principally because they are not truly wild animals, but domesticated. If you are too obtuse to understand and adhere to, you probably are the shooter, not hunter category by preference. Rich DRSS | |||
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DOJ, My point is that when lions or any other game are accustomed to being unmolested in close proximity to humans, the whole fair chase equation differs dramatically. Tell most people who have been on a photo safari in any NP that you are going buffalo hunting and they will assume that you are going to drive through the herd, pick the one you want and shoot. It's a different situation when hunting wild animals in the jess. You may drive up on game in the wild like was stated in a previous post but that, thank God, is the exception rather that the rule. If it was the rule, I for one would give up hunting. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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What I find strange is how someone whom has hunted on game ranches for PG, red line buffalo or micro chipped elephants that were trucked straight from the auctions suddenly takes a hard line against another species being hunted by the same methods."Oh but this is a lion" they love to comment. As if somehow the species matters. Look right here in the forum of Outfitter Advertised Hunts for the current thread on the kudu up to the highest bid. | |||
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DOJ, My next walk on Moosehead Lake is scheduled for approximately January, 2011. And I'm not trying to stand above the fray, but rather to point out the facts as they are. I am as guilty in my own life as the next guy at times of justifying my choices. I believe it was Justice Potter Stewart though don't recall for sure. Let me cite an example so as to make my point: golf is perhaps the truest of all games since it asks the player to police himself at all times. And the truest golfers are those willing to call penalties on themselves even when playing alone. those who do call penalties on themselves even when alone are simply demonstrating adherence to a moral code of golfers. Afterall, who'd know, right? so, Saeed and others who share his view concerning legality and morality aside, there it is; shooting canned pussy ain't hunting. it's shooting. but, since it's all about the me who should give a damn? Every man is an island, right DOJ? Cheers. See you in January at Moosehead? | |||
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The Ethos of Hunting lie, no doubt, along a continuum, with pure fair chase at one extreme and the canned hunt at the other. There is, on the other hand, absolutely no justification for exterminating the wildlife and substantially reducing all other biodiversity, in order that one might chase a little ball around. Get real. Venor ne letare, sed ne pilamalleus lusi. (I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.) (originally by RAC) | |||
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DOJ, Since you implied I never hunted other than the low country. Lion Tan., 2 leopard Zambia, 2 elephants Nam. and Bots, 3 buff. Tan. and Zambia. Let me ask you one simple question, What was the chance you would have come home empty handed on you lion hunt in SA? My chances were good in Tan. on my lion hunt. I got lucky. Its called hunting not shooting. I believe most canned hunts if not all, are are put and take. Than ain't hunting. You can defend it all day long but most know this. I love to duck hunt. There is a shooting perserve near here that puts out ducks. I can go there and shoot 30 ducks. I would rather go to our swamp and shoot one or none. I responded to you not that you have to justify yourself to me but because this is a AFRICAN HUNTING BLOG, NOT A AFRICAN SHOOTING BLOG. If you don't get it by now I cannot explain it any better. Good Luck you to. NRA LIFE MEMBER DU DIAMOND SPONSOR IN PERPETUITY DALLAS SAFARI CLUB LIFE MEMBER SCI FOUNDATION MEMBER | |||
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So you claim you have taken the "Big 4" because you shot your lion from a "canned operation" because it was for free? In your own dreams my friend..... "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Without meaning to criticise any individual, we all have our own reasons for hunting and our own standards and to confuse things even more, we all have our own understandings of commonly used terms. For example, what some might consider hunting, others will consider shooting and then there's the fact that there are different degrees of canning. At one end of the canned scale is a lion that's been released a few days before into relatively small fenced area that he doesn't know and hasn't had time to learn but is clear headed and at the other end of the scale is a lion that's drugged up to it's eyeballs and in an even smaller area. To me, neither are hunting and never will be but to some others, the lesser degree of canning is acceptable...... As I said, I won't comment on individuals. Sher Jung wrote a book many years ago called 'Tryst With Tigers' and in it, he wrote: The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it. He got it about right for me. | |||
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Voltaire once said "I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" Perhaps we as hunters need to say "I do not like the way you kill it but I'll defend to the death your right to hunt it"  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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What is legal other than the average of our collective ethics? Some will only approve of shooting lions that are happened upon (through luck or tracking without dogs) in full daylight, without baiting. Some are perfectly happy to shoot a drugged lion in a tiny pen, even when they know it is drugged, etc. These are the statistical outliers. The majority of us (non-hunters included) fall somewhere in the middle and to a certain extent game laws follow the same trend. Of course there are other forces at work that influence game laws--hatred, ignorance (Tanzanian crocs, for example), business, politics, etc., etc. Hence the "OK if it's legal" mantra. If a practice is legal chances are good that legality is a reflection of what is considered ethical in that jurisdiction. | |||
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silkibex, but it has not passed mustard on AR and we all know AR is the Alpha and Omega of hunting. | |||
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Hi Old Hunter, is cold sliced lion good with mustard? Or did you mean "muster"   http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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I dare say if we were to take "free" (no cost to the hunter) as a reason to disqualify trophies from the Big 5 the makers of that coveted lapel pin would be laying off employees. Bwanamich what next? A cow PAC elephant doesn't qualify when compared to an 60 pounder? I am able to say with all honesty that my RSA lion was alot harder won than my free range leopard taken from a hide prebaited prior to my arrival in camp on the first evening I hunted for him. We drove within 1/2 mile of the blind walked into it in our stockings, I sat down read 7 pages of a novel when my PH nudged my elbow and nodded towards the tree. Bang dead leopard...WOW what a hard won trophy. My green rhino was darted after just a 1/4 mile stalk from the truck. I used an air gun I had first shot back at the lodge 20 minutes prior to the grand hunt. I killed a buff in the Selous after a 1/2 hour ride in the hunting truck. we crossed tracks on the sand road and followed them maybe a mile at most before the three duggas were spotted and I sniped the largest at 80 yds. In my collection of "MY Big 4" I doubt I actually hunted more than 10 hours total...guess that's why I find North American big game hunting more of a thrill than the pursuit of the Big 5, give me high country elk any day over that. | |||
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2th Doc, 1- Did you request "pre-baiting" on your leopard hunt? If so, it was your choice to make it easy and the PH did the "hunting" part on your behalf. If not, find another operator who will allow you to "hunt" your leopard. 2- I agree on your darted white rhino hunt. Most rhino "hunts" aren't hunts - but then you ought to know that going in  3- Your buff was simply the Godess Diana smiling down on you. This can simply be rectified if you discuss your preferences with your PH beforehand. I'm glad you found Africa hunting so easy. Maybe the PH/outfitters did too good a job!  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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2th doc, I think you need to change your box on the left. If you made a canned lion hunt and are not embarrassed to talk about it, you are NOT "one of us". You're a shooter, not a hunter. Rich I hunt for my game | |||
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IS is for # of posts as you well know, maybe you need to have say 6 african hunts under your belt before you would be considered as one of us. Stephen spelling is not my strong point, but mustard or mustar many posters on AR consider themselves and their opinions to be the Alpha and Omaga of Hunting Just ask Idaho Sharpshooter (interesting name for a hunter vs shooter) he will tell you. I am not sure if he is the Alpha or Omega. It appears he thinks of himself of Alpha #1. 2th doc look out we will be banned when IS is the forum moderator. | |||
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Idaho: I've made a total of 16 hunts across the pond to date with the majority being for free range PG in Namibia. While still being a mere greenhorn when compared to some on this site I do believe that is more than the majority of posters here have made. Your assumption of my lack of embarassment over my lion hunt is correct, I haven't any. | |||
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What do you have the problem with, the price, $38K, or the name, Zebo?  | |||
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Doc: Just curious, but what did your canned lion taste like? Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Putting a lion in a cage (and most farms are not more than a big cage for a lion) and shoot it is a shame. You can never call that hunting and I distance myself from people like that because they missed the reason why hunters want to hunt big game. To make that clear I think those people missed completly what hunting is about  Hunting in fenced areas can be ok as long as the animals live there on their own(no excessive feeding) in a self-sustaining population and the place is big enough for the species. | |||
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KPete if you are so interested to know what canned lion tastes like, pony up your own bucks to discover the taste. | |||
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DOJ: My curiosity doesn't extend that far. But inasmuch as the good doctor professes to only shooting what he eats, I had to ask ...
You raise a good point, and indeed the list of questionable, if not dubious, strategies for shooting game is undoubtedly lengthy. So long as we hunters at least take the time to ask ourselves, "is my hunting strategy consonant with the rules of 'Fair Chase'?" then we've gone a long way to ensure ethical practices within our sport. As you point out, there will be gray areas to be sure. But in some cases – internet 'hunting' and canned 'hunting' as examples – only through tortuous definition would most of us see these as anything other than just shooting an animal. They are most certainly not true forms of 'hunting' in either spirit or intent. No more so than shooting live pigeons released on a firing range is 'hunting'. As for me, I'm not retired but I may have been a bureaucrat; isn't that a Republican who holds some government position that a Democrat wants? Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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I have never heard of "live pigeon shoot" referred to as hunting. The only one I ever attended about 40+yrs ago was never considered anything but a shooting contest and I have never see so much money "side bets on each bird" change hands so fast. I never felt good enough of a shooter to participate in those shot locally. If I remember in the sixties they usuall shot for a few thousand dollars on a 50 bird run. | |||
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Well done, sir! (or perhaps medium-rare? you didn't say). Your example demonstrates that Africa serves up adventure in more than just hunting. Most of us have found ourselves face-to-plate with some local delicacy that is rarely served at our home-town steak house. Backstrap of lion must certainly qualify. Yet, while it may be a rare event, we the visitor may provide an unexpected victual to our native hosts. Oscar Wilde once wrote, "Whenever cannibals are on the brink of starvation, Heaven, in it's infinite mercy, sends them a fat missionary." Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Thank you for making my point: The similarities to canned lion hunting are obvious. Game is held in captivity; confused and disoriented, it is released into an unknown environment; it is then shot with all the ceremony and respect accorded a target in a carnival shooting gallery. You're right, it's not hunting. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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K: I always make it a practice to at least a meal or two from any animal I harvest an see to the donation of the edible parts that I can not transport to my residence to those whom may put them to use. I have partaken in more than a few fine feasts prepared over the coals of a campfire or dried in the sun. Hence I've tasted my fair share of hideous meats as well, baboon being the worst to cross my palate. | |||
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KPete, the birds I saw shot at were anything but disoriented. It appears you know little about "live pigeon shoots". It is a damn site harder than bird hunting or sporting clays, trap or skeet. | |||
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Don't confuse a flight for survival with cognitive orientation. Fleeing from what is perceived to be dangerous surroundings is instinctual. While I will grant you that shooting a fleeing lion or pigeon is no doubt more difficult than shooting a paper or clay target, in the end I still see it as 'shooting' and not 'hunting'. That said, I will grant you my ignorance regarding 'live pigeon shoots' – among many, many other subjects. But only through discourse with good folks like you and the doc will I ever learn more than I do now ... Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Live pigeon shooting is very tough. In a match the pigeons your are going to shoot are trained by your opponent and you train the pigeons your opponent will shoot. The "pull" and the shot time are controlled. Some birds are taught to fly upon the sight of open sky and other are trained to hold. The birds are trained to fly certain patterns like low and away right or left or straight and some are taught to sky. There is a "kill ring" in which the birds must "die". The shooters use runners, young boys to geather the "dead bird" before thay can escape the "ring" if not fully dead. I personally don't see that as anything to compare to any form of hunting, just like I can't relate sporting clays, trap or skeet to hunting. The only likeness is all use a shotgun in the execution of the sport. I guess you could compare them as baseball to football or scoccer or rugby in that all are played with a ball. | |||
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KPete it is not often I exert much effort in passing on any form of wisdom though as I exit from this conversational debate I'll leave you with my most cherish iota: One good turn gets you most of the blanket! KPete you have presented yourself as a gentleman an I enjoyed the banter. W.U. | |||
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Never before having heard a pigeon shoot described, my immediate reaction is simply that some people have way too much time and money on their hands, no sense of decency and no respect for life. | |||
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I assume you are appaled by say Dove shooting in South America, where 1,000's are shot on a daily basis. Go troll elswhere. | |||
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And back on thread... I fully approve of canned lion shooting. There are many that wish to harvest animals in this way or cwertainly accept no discomfort in aquiring a dead lion. We breed cows and we kill them to eat. In Zim it is common to use horses as lion or leopard baat...why not just raise and kill lions? What it really does for the industry is remove those individuals that want an 'easy' lion from booking a hunt for a wild lion. The real problems in the industry arrise when Mr Y with more money than pride books a wild lion hunt and then proceeds to start 'buying' a better sucess rate- like trying to bribe the parks game scout behind my back so we could sit in the blind in a parks area and shoot after last leagal shooting light, I had one client bring large quantity of valium powder and tabs to 'lace' the bait with one we had a lion feeding so that it wouldn't go far... I hit one of the above mentioned cads and left the other in the bush...but then canned lion hunting in SA opened up and all such 'problem' clients went elsewhere. I have been present on a couple of these canned lion 'hunts' and if done right they are sport! it may not be hunting but it is one hell of a sight more dangerous than hunting a wild lion! | |||
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