quote:

Originally posted by Carolina Counsel:

quote:

jsl3170

Excellent post, jsl3170. I agree with you 100%. There remains more objectivity in morality than most want to recognize.

2th Doc, I simply disagree with Saeed. I do not believe that legal equals moral. They are not always analogous.

I never said it being legal makes it moral.

What I said was it is up to the individual whether to accept doing it the way it is legally allowed there.

Whether I like it or not is really immaterial, and the same goes to everyone else.

The antis claim that killing any animal with a scoped high power rifle is unethical.

Would you listen to them?

Saeed, we agree! Using anything more than a sharpened stick (no arched limb with string) is just down right unethical!

I would like to put this out there.
I was involved through my hunting association, which had to make comment on this canned shooting. Note I said shooting.
On talking to the one lion farmer, which is what he called himself.
He asked this of us.
I take a bull and a cow. I mate them and I get a calf. I fatten up the calf and I send it to the abattoir. I get paid for the animal and it gets killed. The skin gets taken to the leather works. The animal then gets sent to the butcher.
But now I take a lion and lioness. Mate them. I get paid for it. The animal skin gets sent to the taxidermist. The meat gets used by locals.
What is the difference? Both animals have been brought up in a field and used for the same purpose.
One however I get paid a lot more money for and the guy pays me US dollars.
Both animals are farmed and the person coming here knows that. As long as they want to come I am going to carry on farming lions.
What is the fuss all about?

The questions we asked ourselves on the committee.
If the guy coming knows he is going to shoot a tame enclosed lion and is willing to pay for it. Should we stop it?
If the animal is farmed for that purpose is it any different to any other farmed animal going to slaughter?
Our response was this. If the animal is advertised as a lion hunt. That was fraudulent. If not then it was up to the person shootings own personal ethic.
Do we have a right to stop anyone farming any animal and making a lively hood based on our own views on animals? I.E do we stop farming cattle because there is a portion of the population that see cows as sacred?
Be interesting to see the views on this.

Personally I don't care what someone else wants to spend their money on. Nor do I think the fenced/unfenced debate can ever be settled. My issue is a canned lion hunt is no different than a planted quail/pheasant hunt back here in the States. Planted bird shoots are held in the highest esteem by those whom partake in them. An for the most part it is a sleepy bird that needs to be booted into the air from under the pointer's nose.
Those whom would say, "if you can't tell the difference between planted bird shoots and a planted lion shoot" are only fooling themselves at best...planted is planted behind wire or not.
Case point is ...it is legal if you don't like you have just as much right not to do it as someone else has to do it.Spend your energy to change the law.

And the beat goes on!

This thread and its' accompanying thread 'best lions' really strike at the heart of ethics & morality of hunting. Are we shooters or hunters? Are there degrees of canned hunting eg. fenced, pen raised, drugged game or large areas with purchased/driven, baited game?

Are you hunting or shooting?

Consider the following

Your PH is the best. He knows his area/concession like the back of his hand. He is extremely familiar with the trophy game in his area; he knows their USUAL HANGOUTS (SAY WITHIN THE LAST TWO MONTHS). He knows: your shooting ability, your trophy desires, your understanding of fair chase & hunting ethics.

You arrive at camp: hunt several days & finally take your quarry. Your quarry that the PH was very familiar with; he took you to the spots where your chances of success were extreeeeemely high (NOT GUARANTEED)

DID YOU HUNT & SHOOT OR JUST SHOOT?

I am not advocating self guided hunts; I want that PH as I described above. But, there are many things to consider before condemning one mans method of hunting or his hunting ethics/morality.

regarding African hunting we as "hunters" are along to pull the triger and try our best not screw up the real hunters, a/k/a Trackers.

quote:

Originally posted by boerbokrib:
I would like to put this out there.
I was involved through my hunting association, which had to make comment on this canned shooting. Note I said shooting.
On talking to the one lion farmer, which is what he called himself.
He asked this of us.
I take a bull and a cow. I mate them and I get a calf. I fatten up the calf and I send it to the abattoir. I get paid for the animal and it gets killed. The skin gets taken to the leather works. The animal then gets sent to the butcher.
But now I take a lion and lioness. Mate them. I get paid for it. The animal skin gets sent to the taxidermist. The meat gets used by locals.
What is the difference? Both animals have been brought up in a field and used for the same purpose.
One however I get paid a lot more money for and the guy pays me US dollars.
Both animals are farmed and the person coming here knows that. As long as they want to come I am going to carry on farming lions.
What is the fuss all about?

The questions we asked ourselves on the committee.
If the guy coming knows he is going to shoot a tame enclosed lion and is willing to pay for it. Should we stop it?
If the animal is farmed for that purpose is it any different to any other farmed animal going to slaughter?
Our response was this. If the animal is advertised as a lion hunt. That was fraudulent. If not then it was up to the person shootings own personal ethic.
Do we have a right to stop anyone farming any animal and making a lively hood based on our own views on animals? I.E do we stop farming cattle because there is a portion of the population that see cows as sacred?
Be interesting to see the views on this.

The logic works right up until they start selling the bones to the Chinese. The Chinese start getting a taste of it, want more and more, and the poaching squads start hitting the wild stocks.

So if they can be prevented from creating a Chinese market where one does not now exist then great. But if they start getting the dragon interested then it will be all bad for the wild lions.

I'm a newcome here and keep quiet most of the time because I don't have any experience and therefore don't feel qualified to post much.

However, I gotta chime in here.

I honestly have only one problem with someone who wants to shoot a lion in a pen. The problem I have with it is, it makes us (hunters) look bad to the non-hunting public. I personally don't want to do it, but besides the negative attention it recieves, I have no problem if that trips somebody's trigger

Frankly, besides the negative attention, it doesn't effect me. It does have a positive effect on the farmer of course, and I have a hard time faulting the farmer for that.

But ultimately, I believe that the issue helps the antis gain ground against us. It looks bad. And the antis love to paint us all with the same brush. They don't differentiate between slob hunters, canned shooters, ethical fair chase hunters, etc.

My .02

Bake

Just saw a photo taken with a trail cam, nice whitetail buck shot with a "fester stick" he appeared to be in the middle of his second jump. The interesting point is in the lower corner of the photo is a nice pile of corn.

I'm curious, what kind of "sporting achievement" do the people who have hunted lions in a pen believe they have achieved?

Assuming all you lion shooters have your trophy or trophies at home, do you look at them with a sense of pride and achievement?

I don't buy the comparisons of caned lion hunts with those of leopad hunting or deer hunting where the deer have been fed with corn. Both can be criticised, but it's avery weak, and qute pathetic argument to try and justify canned lion by comparing these with the other two examples. Maybe true fair chase hunters despise all three examples.

Just a thought.....

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:
...... Maybe true fair chase hunters despise all three examples.

Just a thought.....

MJ75 therein may lie the downfall of all hunting in the not so distant future. All hunters had better soon learn to play nice together as hunters whom agree to disagree as the old divide an conquer is as deadly today as it was back when humanoids first trod the Nami desert.
My brothers and I fought many a bare knuckle fist fight growing up in that red Georgia clay but no one had better step between the Utley brothers to this day!

I am quite sure that more folks on this site have RSA lions than care to mention.. Active and lurkers both.

Glad I have no interest(in either fashion of hunting; canned or otherwise).. seems like the turd in the punch bowl at the party each and every time it's brought up.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
And you would be surprised at the number of 'corporate Clients* from the USA and the new money from eastern europe who would never, ever, consider a wil lion hunt with the possibility of not getting one - and having to put up with heat, dust, tsetse flies etc....

Yep. Only word that can cover my feelings regarding this issue is: DISGUST
If my only option for a lionhunt was a canned one, I would stay away - even if it were free..
I have been on two lion hunts before - havent shot a lion yet. Hope that my time will come one day.. But you can never be sure with wild cats..

Ulrik

2th Doc and DOJ,

Just curious: When a friend/guest comes visit your trophy room and looks at the mounted lion on your wall (assuming you have mounted it right?) and asks you about it, do you tell them it was a "farm animal" (as in cows, goats, sheep), bred and raised and kept in an enclosure for the purpose of being shot, or do you tell them you went on an African hunting SAFARI, stalked and HUNTED it , etc, etc, etc??

quote:

Originally posted by bakerb:
I'm a newcome here and keep quiet most of the time because I don't have any experience and therefore don't feel qualified to post much.

However, I gotta chime in here.

I honestly have only one problem with someone who wants to shoot a lion in a pen. The problem I have with it is, it makes us (hunters) look bad to the non-hunting public. I personally don't want to do it, but besides the negative attention it recieves, I have no problem if that trips somebody's trigger

Frankly, besides the negative attention, it doesn't effect me. It does have a positive effect on the farmer of course, and I have a hard time faulting the farmer for that.

But ultimately, I believe that the issue helps the antis gain ground against us. It looks bad. And the antis love to paint us all with the same brush. They don't differentiate between slob hunters, canned shooters, ethical fair chase hunters, etc.

My .02

Bake

Good point. So if we REMOVE all mention of canned lions (or any other animal) from the various record books and simply label them as FARM ANIMALS, dissassociate these entirely from the words "hunting", "trophy", "safari", etc, then we stand a chance at sport hunting NOT being lumped in together.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:

The logic works right up until they start selling the bones to the Chinese. The Chinese start getting a taste of it, want more and more, and the poaching squads start hitting the wild stocks.

So if they can be prevented from creating a Chinese market where one does not now exist then great. But if they start getting the dragon interested then it will be all bad for the wild lions.

On the contrary John, canned lion farming will supply a cheaper direct supply of bones to that market. This is the crux of our basic argument that by giving wild animals a true commercial TRADEABLE value then they will be preserved automatically.

If the red tape and restrictive quotas could be removed from rhino then far more land owners would stock them. If ivory could be traded legally then what margin would there be in poaching? The millions of animals slaughtered commercially everyday do not fall into the threatened or endangered category because of this.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I have been present on a couple of these canned lion 'hunts' and if done right they are sport! it may not be hunting but it is one hell of a sight more dangerous than hunting a wild lion!

Ganyana, I’m very curious! How is it more dangerous?

Stephen - my 'speciality' is walk and stalk lion hunts using bushmen (instead of dogs) to follow up fresh spoor. In 27 successful lion hunts using this teqhnique I have been charged by the male once- and it was a mock charge.

I have been charged 13 or 14 times by at least one lioness while the male did a fast disapearing act. In at least half these instances it was enough to distract the client and he din't get the male. I have shoy one lioness in 'self defence' and a client shot one instead of the male (and as gentleman enough to pay for it- It was a real trophy and well earned in terms of adrenaline dump). I am not 100% sure either of those lioneeses shot in 'self defence' was 'necessary' - I am pretty sure the charge woul have broken and she would have stopped and she would have thrown dust at us, growled, roared and run away (like all the others)- However, I have an 8 pace policy, and if she crosses the line, I shoot.

With the canned 'hunt', the lions are NOT afraid of people - they are often very agressive having been coope up for too long in small enclosures. They get chucked out into 2000 acre padock and you wander in to find it-Both canned hunts I have been present on ended with a determined chargeby a big angry male- there was nothing 'mock' about them. Screw up the shot and somebody is going to get hurt, and absolutely no chance for a second shot (unless you had a double). Client killed one, PH killed the other. Both died in full charge within 10 paces.

Like I said- not hunting but it is a darn sight more 'exciting' than most activities in the bush. I would rate it on a par with night elephant hunting and hunting people with AK 47's in terms of adrenaline rush....It is sport

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:

On the contrary John, canned lion farming will supply a cheaper direct supply of bones to that market. This is the crux of our basic argument that by giving wild animals a true commercial TRADEABLE value then they will be preserved automatically.

I can see a certain logic in that argument but I can see an awful lot more logic in taking it a step further by simply allowing the Chinese and whoever else wants the bones etc to farm the species themselves in their home countries and we have nothing to do with that and therefore no-one in the hunting industry can be tempted into dodgy dealings.

There's also the PR benefit of the hunting industry not only being squeaky clean but being SEEN to be squeaky clean.

Stephen, I have to ask who you are referring to when you say 'our'? do you mean some of the guys here or do you mean some kind of breeders association? - Sorry to ask that question but I'm a bit confused by your use of the word.

I reckon Ganyana has a point about habituated lions but it fails to address the most disgraceful issue of the lions being shot whilst under the influence of drugs which is not an unusual circumstance in canned lion scenarios....... to see proof of that, all you've got to do is check You Tube for plenty of examples of that....... some of the lions are so far out of it, they can't even get to their feet.

That isn't just a disgrace, it's a fucking disgrace and as far as I'm concerned, has absolutely no relationship to hunting....... unfortunately, others don't see it that way and tar us all with the same brush.

If we don't police ourselves then sooner or later, someone else will do it for us and then ALL lion hunting will be banned and not just canned lion shooting....... and the ban might not stop at just lion hunting either.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
2th Doc and DOJ,

Just curious: When a friend/guest comes visit your trophy room and looks at the mounted lion on your wall (assuming you have mounted it right?) and asks you about it, do you tell them it was a "farm animal" (as in cows, goats, sheep), bred and raised and kept in an enclosure for the purpose of being shot, or do you tell them you went on an African hunting SAFARI, stalked and HUNTED it , etc, etc, etc??

I can not speak for DOJ but when patients see the mounts in my inner office and those in the waiting parlor, where the full body male is standing, it is the lion that invokes most comments. I tell those whom ask it was killed in Africa on a hunting ranch (there is a brass plate mounted to the base that reads, "harvested in RSA".
** Worthy of note fully 20-30% of the visitors ask what the animal is. A typical comment goes something like this: "Doctor I saw the beautiful animals you have in your waitng area, you must hunt an awful lot", Why yes I do. "That tiger (leopard rug hanging on the wall by my desk) is beautiful, is that a lion by your receptionist's desk", Yes it is. "Oh they are much bigger than I thought they were you must have been scared when you were hunting it. How close was it when you shot it?" My first shot was at 25 paces and yes I was shaken after the lioness with him took offense to my breaking off her courtship!

Bwanamich, the Lioness I shot in RSA on a "farm" is not yet in my office. I will tell people that I shot her on a ranch in RSA which raise lions for hunters. The "pen" I shot her in was if memory serves me correctly was about 30,000 acres. I am sure she was fed well prior to release so she was of little danger to the plains game. I knew I would find her in a relative short time and there would be little risk of the property owner loosing a Red Hartebeest or Zebra etc to her. I was under no illusion that I was hunting a "wild lioness", hell I had been participating in these "canned lion" strings for many years. One way to look at the whole thing I was able to hunt a lioness and not harm the relatively small wild lion population. You see I am not a vegeratarian and every piece of meat I consume means an animial was killed and killing is killing now matter how you dress it up. Maybe the worst killings (which I have done) are those for the "bait" animials as most of the meat goes to rot, but then the "mighty hunter" can thump his chest and say "I out smarted the wylie beast lay the laurels at my feet". I have seen the videos with the tryumphant hunter and crew drive in to the camp with the truck adorned in branchs and blowing the horn. Some would think they were Patton entering a fallen Axis town. Enough.

DOJ do you get the feeling that Bawanamich is the sort whom could not afford any flavor of lion hunt so much like those whom suffer penal envy take pop shots at those whom have done some hunting themselves?

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
DOJ do you get the feeling that Bawanamich is the sort whom could not afford any flavor of lion hunt so much like those whom suffer penal envy take pop shots at those whom have done some hunting themselves?

I can assure you that BwanaMich is the most knowledegeable man on the subject of lions and lion ecology/management etc on this forum by a country mile and the same could be said of his real time experience of lions.

you might not agree with what he says and that of course is your perogative but you're definitely on a loser when you question his experience and/or knowledge.

BTW, why should he be be envious of someone elses's prisons?

Steve he may well be steeped in lion, I have little doubt he is. Though his posting on this thread present themselves as childish seeking little more than confrontational replies.

As you once told me "debate is good". What I have no respect nor time for are personal attacks.

Envy others prisons? Couldn't the same be written about the very profitable PG auctions an the practice of trucking game to hunting ranches thruout Africa. What do you call a fallow deer on the Cape/ a red line reared and stocked buff/ a waterbuck in the Kalihari desert/etc,etc?

I don't know, as he list Tanz as his home I wonder if he is a PH or operator and is worried that canned lion hunting will take from the big buck Tanz lion hunting. I can hear it now the outrage that any "true" hunter would only hunt "wild lions" in Tanz.

2th,

You missed my joke..... you referred to penal (as in prisons) envy when you (presumably) meant penis or penile envy.

Ah well, I thought it was funny!

you thought it was funny but we all know you are not normals. I guess that's why it was funny to me toooo

Hell Steve my daddy spent a small fortune to get me thru skool and I still can not spell. My secretary asks at a minimum of once a day; "errr Doc just what is it you want me to order"
Bill

Steve's a brit he spells like he talks

Steve you may be correct about Bwanamich as I know nothing about him but what he has posted here. Sorry if I offended anyone NOT!

DOJ,

You certainly didn't offend me.

We might rarely agree but your opinion has never offended me.... as far as I'm concerned debate is a healthy thing and think how boring life would be if we all agreed with each other all the time.

DOJ & 2th doc,

Y'all might want to weigh heavily in thought before hitting the send button on insults to Bwanamich.

I'll assure you that "he has been there...done that...and got the t-shirt".

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:
...... Maybe true fair chase hunters despise all three examples.

Just a thought.....

MJ75 therein may lie the downfall of all hunting in the not so distant future. All hunters had better soon learn to play nice together as hunters whom agree to disagree as the old divide an conquer is as deadly today as it was back when humanoids first trod the Nami desert.
My brothers and I fought many a bare knuckle fist fight growing up in that red Georgia clay but no one had better step between the Utley brothers to this day!

I disagree. Hunting caged lions genuinely sickens me. I believe those who see their "caged trophies" as anything other than "cheating" are deluding themselves. If anything ever does limit hunting opportunities, then it won't be fellow hunters disagreeing over the ethics of our sport. But pressure from anti's. Probably fuelled by a similar disgust of canned hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:
If anything ever does limit hunting opportunities, then it won't be fellow hunters disagreeing over the ethics of our sport. But pressure from anti's. Probably fuelled by a similar disgust of canned hunting.

Exactly what I've been saying for years.

And welcome to the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:


I disagree. Hunting caged lions genuinely sickens me. ....

Then I suggest you never do it! Just do not try to tell me what should sicken me 'cause that is my call not yours.
I'm aware the subject of canned lion for some is akin to a puff of air across an exposed nerve. Fortunaetly it doesn't bother me nor do any of the 50 or so past threads on the subject here on AR. Now what AR needs is the subject of leopard hunting with hounds reared once more!

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:


I disagree. Hunting caged lions genuinely sickens me. ....

Then I suggest you never do it! Just do not try to tell me what should sicken me 'cause that is my call not yours.
I'm aware the subject of canned lion for some is akin to a puff of air across an exposed nerve. Fortunaetly it doesn't bother me nor do any of the 50 or so past threads on the subject here on AR. Now what AR needs is the subject of leopard hunting with hounds reared once more!

But my dear doctor, why on earth would I do it? What would I achieve? What possible good would come from me undertaking a canned hunt?

I'm well aware that anything I say will not change your thoughts and opinions. And I don't believe I've told you what to do or what not to do. In fact I think our discussion started up after you replied to one of my posts did it not?

I'd never waste my time trying to tell a habitual crack head that their hobby is bad for them, and won't preach to those who participate in canned hunts either.

But you are deluded if you think that infighting will have any affect on hunting being banned. Infact I've noticed over the years that those who take part in the more questionable and controvertial areas of hunting often try and use the "we must all stand together or else" argument. It's a real pity that the irony of such statements escapes them...

At least I'd like to think that those considering a canned hunt will sit and think about it. Will they really get any satisfaction when looking in the mirror and knowing they've shot a beast that couldn't run away?

Anyway, thank you for making me smile earlier. The attempted justification that it's OK to hunt a caged beast so that it can be mounted and used to educate children is very original. I'll give you that!

All the best
MJ

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:
If anything ever does limit hunting opportunities, then it won't be fellow hunters disagreeing over the ethics of our sport. But pressure from anti's. Probably fuelled by a similar disgust of canned hunting.

Exactly what I've been saying for years.

And welcome to the forum.

Thank you. The anti's do pose a genuine danger to our hobby. People really should give consideration to the areas of our sport which provide them with the most ammunition to attack us and act accordingly.

mj now just where did I say a canned lion should be mounted to educate children? I did not.
Sad but true away from the hunting fraternity most people really don't give a rat's butt how something is hunted. They either are 100% anti hunting, 100% pro hunhting or just do not care one way or the other.
BTW what was your screen name before you reregistered?

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
mj now just where did I say a canned lion should be mounted to educate children? I did not.
Sad but true away from the hunting fraternity most people really don't give a rat's butt how something is hunted. They either are 100% anti hunting, 100% pro hunhting or just do not care one way or the other.
BTW what was your screen name before you reregistered?

Why did you feel the need to tell the story of the child being "educated" about the trophies in your office and the brave man who sot them at such close range?

There are many anti's who can and indeed will differentiate between different types of hunting. But thats not really relevant. You see the more unsavoury forms of hunting can be misrepresented by these anti's and the proporganda employed by them sways public opinion into causing us issues with the people who ultimately decide what forms of hunting are legal or not.

Take fox hunting in the UK as a prime example.

I have not used another forum name on here. I've read the forum for many months. I even registered some time ago, but have only recently decided to post.

Are you trying to insinuate that I'm some kind of troll, in an attempt to discredit my posts? Is that whyyou've asked the question? If the answer is no, then please advise why you asked in the first place.

Admin should be able to confirm that I'm genuine. Why not ask them to check my ip addy etc. I won't expect an apology...... lol

I have watched this thread for a few days and can only wonder why in the world anyone would want to shoot a farm raised lion. Hell, at least fenced in plains game lives in the fenced area since birth.

Lion hunting in the wild is never guaranteed. But I would rather hunt in Tanz and draw a blank than shoot a huge manned lion in SA.

Personally, I wish they canned hunts were illegal. If hunting wild animals with bait is so easy DOJ, why don't you hunt them that way??

One more thing: can we please dispense with the "envy" BS every time one of us is critical of the other? It is so much bullshit.