Mj75 please quote me where I've mentioned the need to educate anyone least wise a child in this thread, you may have me mistaken with another.
Anotherwriter: Maybe your choice is to hunt a Tanz. leo and take your chances of leaving empty handed with just the memories of the chase, fine that is your choice though it is not mine.
As for following this thread down the slippery slope all these threads on the fenced lion issue seem to skid down I agree. My staff is on vacation this week,the office closed as I take a refresher and write a paper. I checked this thread on and off for a couple days commenting along the way. I now retire to my office to finish that task and enjoy gazing into the waiting parlor at my trophy lion recalling the memories I brought home from that 3 week trip to Namibia and RSA.
Have fun beating this dead horse of a subject my mind won't be chaged nor will those of the anti ranch lion hunt crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
mj now just where did I say a canned lion should be mounted to educate children? I did not.
Sad but true away from the hunting fraternity most people really don't give a rat's butt how something is hunted. They either are 100% anti hunting, 100% pro hunhting or just do not care one way or the other.
BTW what was your screen name before you reregistered?

Why did you feel the need to tell the story of the child being "educated" about the trophies in your office and the brave man who sot them at such close range?

There are many anti's who can and indeed will differentiate between different types of hunting. But thats not really relevant. You see the more unsavoury forms of hunting can be misrepresented by these anti's and the proporganda employed by them sways public opinion into causing us issues with the people who ultimately decide what forms of hunting are legal or not.

Take fox hunting in the UK as a prime example.

I have not used another forum name on here. I've read the forum for many months. I even registered some time ago, but have only recently decided to post.

Are you trying to insinuate that I'm some kind of troll, in an attempt to discredit my posts? Is that whyyou've asked the question? If the answer is no, then please advise why you asked in the first place.

Admin should be able to confirm that I'm genuine. Why not ask them to check my ip addy etc. I won't expect an apology...... lol

MJ75,

Enjoyed reading your comments on this debate and agree with all that you say.

For me a Lion symbolizes Africa and all that is wild. It is a privilege to enter the pristine domain of such a creature, to acknowledge his call and to dare follow his footprint.

I walk the Luangwa floodplains because I can, and I cherish the wilderness and all that goes with it. Now and again I walk with Lions and there is something raw, something ancient about our encounters.

We are a fortunate few to hunt beasts such as these and in their wild places.

Those who understand what I write are hunters in my book. Those that do not then I invite you to come and walk with me.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I can see a certain logic in that argument but I can see an awful lot more logic in taking it a step further by simply allowing the Chinese and whoever else wants the bones etc to farm the species themselves in their home countries and we have nothing to do with that and therefore no-one in the hunting industry can be tempted into dodgy dealings.

There's also the PR benefit of the hunting industry not only being squeaky clean but being SEEN to be squeaky clean.

Stephen, I have to ask who you are referring to when you say 'our'? do you mean some of the guys here or do you mean some kind of breeders association? - Sorry to ask that question but I'm a bit confused by your use of the word.

Steve, pardon my arrogance at the use of "our" in that respect. I am referring very specifically to the concept of "Conservation BY Utilisation" as against "Preservation by Charity" which I (perhaps arrogantly) believe to be the majority view here. Would be interesting to canvass perhaps?

Within that general view though, I do concede that there will be a myriad of lets say "sub-opinions" where individuals hold differing views on specific issues. This canned lion thing being a major case in point.

My opinion is an extra US$3000 just for bones per lion bred in SA buys a lot of cat food, which in turn means we'd have lions as part of our biodiversity for a long while yet.

The concern about the negative perceptions and the antis is not to be underestimated, but I'm of the opinion that the true antis are beyond any help so why bother model our entire existence around them?
We are labouring the subject of bad ethics so much that it is WE who are in fact perpetuating the connection. Do lawyers' forums focus on those that embezzle the trust account? Are doctors locked in a constant debate about medical malpractice? Of the MILLIONS of shots fired each year by hunters the amount fired at captive bred lions cannot equate to the tiniest smidgeon of a percent. Yes, there will always be guys like Derek Watts (SA TV Show, Carte Blanche) who will blow it all over the media, but I do not see myself even remotely associated to such practices so I don't see myself living in a state of perpetual vicarious apology.

I cannot see lion bone farming different from ostrich or crocodile farming. The added benefit for the farmer that some moron will come pay top dollar to come do the killing is no different from some middle class kid going to a kibbutz and landing the job of slitting chicken throats at the kosher abbatoir.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I'd be willing to bet more than 75% of the nay sayers to canned lion hunting would suddenly have a chnage of heart if they would suddenly come into a cash windfall allowing for them to make such a hunt.

If your offer were to a group of 100 true hunters --and I do mean the term literally--, I think you'd lose that bet. By a large margin. I can only hope so. I'd no sooner shoot a penned lion than kill my neighbor's dog, free or not. I speak for me only, naturally...

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Mj75 please quote me where I've mentioned the need to educate anyone least wise a child in this thread, you may have me mistaken with another.
Anotherwriter: Maybe your choice is to hunt a Tanz. leo and take your chances of leaving empty handed with just the memories of the chase, fine that is your choice though it is not mine.
As for following this thread down the slippery slope all these threads on the fenced lion issue seem to skid down I agree. My staff is on vacation this week,the office closed as I take a refresher and write a paper. I checked this thread on and off for a couple days commenting along the way. I now retire to my office to finish that task and enjoy gazing into the waiting parlor at my trophy lion recalling the memories I brought home from that 3 week trip to Namibia and RSA.
Have fun beating this dead horse of a subject my mind won't be chaged nor will those of the anti ranch lion hunt crowd.

You know, I expected more intelligence from a doctor. I'd have thought an educated man would have engaged more in the debate.

I see you have chosen not to answer my questions. Ah well, I always thought those who hunted lions in a pen, or shot rats in a barrel were "cowardly". I'm not saying running away to your office is a cowardly act. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions. Anyway, seeing as you're hiding away, sorry, I mean working on your paper, I'll withdraw from this thread too.

You were at least correct about the fact that no ones mind will ever change after all.

Anyway, I need to go and call my man in the RSA. I have details to finalise for my next hunt there....

TTFN

MJ75

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Mj75 please quote me where I've mentioned the need to educate anyone least wise a child in this thread, you may have me mistaken with another.
Anotherwriter: Maybe your choice is to hunt a Tanz. leo and take your chances of leaving empty handed with just the memories of the chase, fine that is your choice though it is not mine.
As for following this thread down the slippery slope all these threads on the fenced lion issue seem to skid down I agree. My staff is on vacation this week,the office closed as I take a refresher and write a paper. I checked this thread on and off for a couple days commenting along the way. I now retire to my office to finish that task and enjoy gazing into the waiting parlor at my trophy lion recalling the memories I brought home from that 3 week trip to Namibia and RSA.
Have fun beating this dead horse of a subject my mind won't be chaged nor will those of the anti ranch lion hunt crowd.

You know, I expected more intelligence from a doctor. I'd have thought an educated man would have engaged more in the debate.

MJ75

He is not a doctor; he is a troll who has been banned from the site under several different names. In reality he works at a school in Pennsylvania.

AAZW, I have sat in blinds for leopard. I hunted "baited" Leopards on 3 hunts. I then decided to try hunting them with hounds. I was sucessful on the hound hunt and it only took 4 days and I am sure in some eyes I didn't earn the Leopard.

I hunted in a camp in SE Zim for 10 days for Leopard on bait and was unsuccesful, but at the same operation there was a hunter who was on his first African hunt and he shot a Leopard the first night of the hunt. His basic comment was "Man that was easy".

I posted above the basics of my Lioness hunt in RSA and the approximate size of the "cage". It is interesting on here how a "canned" lion hunt = 'caged" lion hunt. You will also note I did not opt to hunt a HUGH MANNED LION.

This pointless debate will go on as long as there is a forum to debate the subject.

I cringe every tine I see a new post about Lions as I know as sure as God (I guess I can say that) made little green apples it will end up just like this string, eh.

LHook7 I beg your pardon but just whom do you think I am? I've been a member here since sometime back in 2008 (I believe) and to my knowledge have never been banned.
You are correct I do live in Pa., eastern to be more exact.
I turned on my personal laptop this AM to check eamils,banking, etc. like millions of others. While on line I checked a few forums, like millions of others an to my disappointment find your personal attack directed at me. Ill concieved as it is I cannot help but wonder whom you and on occassion one or two other posters here seem to think I am. I can assure you I am not a troll whom I believe the moderators would have sniffed out in the past two years of posting.

quote:

He is not a doctor; he is a troll who has been banned from the site under several different names. In reality he works at a school in Pennsylvania.

Thank you. That explains a lot. I'll assume it's not in the english department after reading his posts!

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:

quote:

He is not a doctor; he is a troll who has been banned from the site under several different names. In reality he works at a school in Pennsylvania.

Thank you. That explains a lot. I'll assume it's not in the english department after reading his posts!

I believe he specializes in Janitorial Arts.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by MJ75:

quote:

He is not a doctor; he is a troll who has been banned from the site under several different names. In reality he works at a school in Pennsylvania.

Thank you. That explains a lot. I'll assume it's not in the english department after reading his posts!

I believe he specializes in Janitorial Arts.

Lhook:

I've disagreed with 2th Doc on this issue, but like a gentleman he has always attacked the position not the man. You've made some serious allegations against 2th Doc with the intent of impugning his character. He's denied what you've said. In all fairness, you need to either support your allegations or offer an apology.

Kpete,

Here is a quote from you to me when a PETA member had flamed the board and you thought the guy was well meaning newbie. I was proven correct, but you never bothered to acknowledge it:

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
KPete,

You should have read this douchebag's other posts. They were in the misc. forum before they were deleted, and I thank Saeed (or whomever deleted them) for doing so, the jist of them was that hunterers are murderers and PETA is watching us. This POS is that same troll who has been banned from these forums under several other aliases.

Strong words and even stronger allegations; I suppose you have some evidence to back them up? And since we're talking about a man's reputation, perhaps you'd share that evidence with us. One has to wonder: If Tex isn't Tex, then who was that guy in the picture with the dollar bill? I'm probably not the only person who'd like to know.

Here is the link to that thread: http://forums.accuratereloadin...631056411#7631056411

If you doubt my statement I encourage you to do your own research and prove me wrong.

Gee this is slowing down, which is good as the current SCI rant is underway and it is time consuming to keep up with both.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
AAZW, I have sat in blinds for leopard. I hunted "baited" Leopards on 3 hunts. I then decided to try hunting them with hounds. I was sucessful on the hound hunt and it only took 4 days and I am sure in some eyes I didn't earn the Leopard.

I hunted in a camp in SE Zim for 10 days for Leopard on bait and was unsuccesful, but at the same operation there was a hunter who was on his first African hunt and he shot a Leopard the first night of the hunt. His basic comment was "Man that was easy".

I posted above the basics of my Lioness hunt in RSA and the approximate size of the "cage". It is interesting on here how a "canned" lion hunt = 'caged" lion hunt. You will also note I did not opt to hunt a HUGH MANNED LION.

This pointless debate will go on as long as there is a forum to debate the subject.

I cringe every tine I see a new post about Lions as I know as sure as God (I guess I can say that) made little green apples it will end up just like this string, eh.

Hell, I would say you earned that leopard. But I would have said that if you shot one the first night in the blind.

I don't know much about hound hunting, but if it means 100 percent success, then I am not in favor of it. But I don't think that is the case. And I am definitely not in favor of hound hunting if you aren't chasing the hounds yourself.

But in a all due respect, you didn't earn that lion - you bought it. But at least you are honest.

Well I have not read every single post on this thread, but isn't that the difference ...if the success rate is 100% and you are guaranteed a kill, then, IMHO it is not hunting. Same with fishing, it is called fishing not catching for a reason.
Peter.

I'm going to try and not say what I think, but I'm against any shooting of animals that is not fair chase of totally wild game. That includes game ranches and canned lion hunts. About as sporting as shooting my neighbors cow, or their dog.

AAZW, by your prespective when I shot my Elephant I didn't earn it because I was sure I would get one. I had a mgmt permit and Elephant were so numerous in the area thus the management permits. Now if I messed up and missed the side of the barn maybe then I wouldn' have taken an elephant. I have bought every Africian animial I have taken, I go along with the PH and Trackers and then pull the trigger and it is my job not to F*ck up.

I consider only Whitetail, Bear and Turkey I hunt alone to be true hunts. Some may convince themselves they have hunted other game i e Leopard, Buffalo etc but they truly have not. Of course unless they have hunted them alone.

I remember a PH in Bots saying he was saving an Elephant permit for himself so he could truely hunt it for himself with out the aid of a tracker etc. By his own words this would be truely a "Hunt" for elephant. Now if memory serves me correctly it was Jeff Rann.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
AAZW, by your prespective when I shot my Elephant I didn't earn it because I was sure I would get one. I had a mgmt permit and Elephant were so numerous in the area thus the management permits. Now if I messed up and missed the side of the barn maybe then I wouldn' have taken an elephant. I have bought every Africian animial I have taken, I go along with the PH and Trackers and then pull the trigger and it is my job not to F*ck up.

I consider only Whitetail, Bear and Turkey I hunt alone to be true hunts. Some may convince themselves they have hunted other game i e Leopard, Buffalo etc but they truly have not. Of course unless they have hunted them alone.

I remember a PH in Bots saying he was saving an Elephant permit for himself so he could truely hunt it for himself with out the aid of a tracker etc. By his own words this would be truely a "Hunt" for elephant. Now if memory serves me correctly it was Jeff Rann.

I disagree a management hunt is guaranteed. There is no fence keeping them in - if there is, then it is a shoot, not a hunt.

I have said several times here that a good 6x6 elk is a much better trophy than a run of the mill buffalo for the simple fact shooting a run of the mill buffalo is not difficult at all.

And I also place a high value of the animals I hunted myself. I have a rather small grizzly (but beautiful long blond hair) that I shot myself on a DIY hunt when I was in the Army stationed in Alaska. I value mountain game, even when taken with a guide, for the simple fact you have to be in shape to do it.

We probably agree on a lot of things. We just don't agree on your lion. Next subject...

AAZW, you made a point about mountain game "you have to be in shape to do it". This is something I never understood the physicality of hunting. i e it must be physically challenging to be good or respected. If climbing mountains were my goal that is what I would do - climb mountains. I have never hunted sheep but the only tough part of sheep hunting (from what I have read and see on shows) is it takes physical endurance and long shots. Personally I don't know of a more diffucult "hunt" than a trophy whitetail. JMO

I guess that is why I prefer to hunt the Pygmy Antelope as a specfic hunt not a chance encounter.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Stephen - my 'speciality' is walk and stalk lion hunts using bushmen (instead of dogs) to follow up fresh spoor. In 27 successful lion hunts using this teqhnique I have been charged by the male once- and it was a mock charge.

I have been charged 13 or 14 times by at least one lioness while the male did a fast disapearing act. In at least half these instances it was enough to distract the client and he din't get the male. I have shoy one lioness in 'self defence' and a client shot one instead of the male (and as gentleman enough to pay for it- It was a real trophy and well earned in terms of adrenaline dump). I am not 100% sure either of those lioneeses shot in 'self defence' was 'necessary' - I am pretty sure the charge woul have broken and she would have stopped and she would have thrown dust at us, growled, roared and run away (like all the others)- However, I have an 8 pace policy, and if she crosses the line, I shoot.

With the canned 'hunt', the lions are NOT afraid of people - they are often very agressive having been coope up for too long in small enclosures. They get chucked out into 2000 acre padock and you wander in to find it-Both canned hunts I have been present on ended with a determined chargeby a big angry male- there was nothing 'mock' about them. Screw up the shot and somebody is going to get hurt, and absolutely no chance for a second shot (unless you had a double). Client killed one, PH killed the other. Both died in full charge within 10 paces.

Like I said- not hunting but it is a darn sight more 'exciting' than most activities in the bush. I would rate it on a par with night elephant hunting and hunting people with AK 47's in terms of adrenaline rush....It is sport

I have not given much thought to lion hunting either wild or ranched. But the above quote was the most interesting of the thread. Thanks for sharing your first hand experience as a PH.

Saeed,
Sorry that I did not respond earlier, but I have been working. Just to be clear, I was responding to someone else's characterization of your position, rather than something that you actually said. I hope that was clear.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
AAZW, you made a point about mountain game "you have to be in shape to do it". This is something I never understood the physicality of hunting. i e it must be physically challenging to be good or respected. If climbing mountains were my goal that is what I would do - climb mountains. I have never hunted sheep but the only tough part of sheep hunting (from what I have read and see on shows) is it takes physical endurance and long shots. Personally I don't know of a more diffucult "hunt" than a trophy whitetail. JMO

I guess that is why I prefer to hunt the Pygmy Antelope as a specfic hunt not a chance encounter.

Actually, you can get quite close to sheep. I have shot five; the closest was 15 yards and the farthest was an estimated 360 yards (used my scope subtension before rangefinders existed).

Whitetails? Perhaps the smartest animal, but not very hard to hunt. Hunting whitetails off a stand is zero physical effort.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Archie Nesbitt. He has killed as many animals as anyone who posts here, yet he does it with a bow. Mountain sheep with a bow...wow, there is a challenge!

To kill most African game all you need is a wallet - especially so if you shoot a canned lion (which ironically costs less than a 21 day in Tanz). How many posters here have a huge trophy room full of African game surrounded by a 5x5 elk, a so-so whitetail, and zero sheep or goats? Why is that?

To kill most African game all you need is a wallet - especially so if you shoot a canned lion (which ironically costs less than a 21 day in Tanz). How many posters here have a huge trophy room full of African game surrounded by a 5x5 elk, a so-so whitetail, and zero sheep or goats? Why is that?

John,

You do realize that some could take offense at your above statement? I really don't think that many people book Africa just because it's physically easier than other hunting. I think like myself they probably have always wanted to hunt the "Dark Continent". I personally find Africa far more interesting than North America and that's why my money goes to African hunting rather than NA.

I've done lots of the DIY hunts and busted my ass climbing mountains, slogging across tundra and packing literaly tons of meat in addition to hunitng Africa. What I found out from all that experience was that the physical part was not that important to the total hunt. I found I could have just as much fun if not more if I did not bust my ass and fun is what it's all about for me anyway.

Mark

Mark,

In my experience, the number one thing you need to kill most African game is money. If some take offense to that, sorry - it is my opinion as quite probably the truth. The proof is some of the recent African shows we have all watched. Hell, you don't even have to carrry your own rifle if you have a hard time walking.

It isn't to say it is not enjoyable. But part of this thread is the subject of "challenge" - it is why after killing a bunch of buffalo I am not particularly interested in killing a run of the mill buff. Same reason Aaron doesn't kill some lion any number of us would. Same reason almost all of us have no interest in a canned lion hunt.

The bottom line with Africa is this: you can be the greatest "hunter" in all respects, but if you don't have the bucks, there is a limit to what you can shoot.

Again, not to take away anything from Africa. I love the place. Unlike some, even though I have hunted DG, I still get a kick out of PG. I would love to shoot a big bull gemsbok over 40 inches - I have shot 4 but none over 40. I love sitting over a bait for lepard - probably the most sendentary way to hunt in Africa.

But I also like a horse packstring hunt for elk. On a per animal basis, it is expensive when compared to Africa. In terms of fun, I love it. I just wrote Ron Spomer an email to tell him how much I enjoyed his recent story about the Thoroughfare in American Hunter. His photos and manuscript really captured the essence of that hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I have not read every single post on this thread, but isn't that the difference ...if the success rate is 100% and you are guaranteed a kill, then, IMHO it is not hunting. Same with fishing, it is called fishing not catching for a reason.
Peter.

An interesting aboutface from a guy who fought this postion recently!

quote:

To kill most African game all you need is a wallet - especially so if you shoot a canned lion (which ironically costs less than a 21 day in Tanz). How many posters here have a huge trophy room full of African game surrounded by a 5x5 elk, a so-so whitetail, and zero sheep or goats? Why is that?

AAW,
For the most part us guys here in AZ & you know why, it's called the AZGFD. While I feel we have one of the finest game dept. anywhere, it is becoming more and more difficult every year to draw the good stuff. Most AZ hunters aren't interested in going elsewhere to hunt sub-standard elk for 7500.00.

I personally have been waiting for my sheep hunting to draw a tag here but well....................................................you know. I am starting my sheep hunting in three weeks in the Brooks.

Is physical effort or financial reasons or both the point of your question?

Steve

One of the reasons I like Africa was after the first trip I found out I didn't have to eat crappy food, stink for lack of facallities etc to have a good time hunting and guess what IT WAS CHEAPER!

"In my experience, the number one thing you need to kill most African game is money"

Same is true in many parts of the US

Also, try and draw a tag in many areas, hell by the time you can afford the hunt, you are looking at years to have enough points. By the time you have the tag , money, and time you might be so old you are unable to go on many of the hunts.

I go hunting as my vacation, the most important thing to me is that I am having fun, everything else secondary.

There are many types/styles of legal hunting that have no interest to me but I am not forced to participate and would never criticize someone that wants to hunt in that way.

I would also say that I have had far more negative hunting experiences in North America than I have had in any other part of the world.

"I would also say that I have had far more negative hunting experiences in North America than I have had in any other part of the world". Truer words were never spoken. I forgot to add to my comments above. Another thing I (my experience) have never heard near the "stories" about hunters mistake in other countries as I have heard in North America. I always thought when I would do something wrong "The is the story for next camp". I once told a guide in western US when he was telling about another hunters mistake to just SHUT THE F*CK UP! and you can guess what size of tip I left him.

If guides or PH"s feel the need to tell stories about hunters only tell good ones. I just can't imange they are that stupid to think the person hearing the story isn't setting there think well I guess I will be the next story. Maybe we should start a forum "Guides Screw ups". Sorry to go off on a tangent.

I read these threads with interest as there are usually no clearcut answers to the question, "when does hunting cross the line from fair chase to a simple execution."

I've hunted on high-fenced properties twice. Once in New Zealand and once in Namibia. In both cases I did so without knowing what I was getting into. I won them at the silent auction at the DSC convention. I signed up for both after getting off of active duty, and anxious to make up for lost time. I should have asked better questions, but as I'd never been on a guided big-game hunt the questions I should have asked just didn't occur to me.

I can honestly say that neither hunt was the easiest hunt I'd been on. The easiest would be a caribou hunt just north of the Alaska peninsula. We could have shot our bulls without ever getting out of our sleeping bags, they were coming into camp in such numbers. The fact we hiked a mile out of camp to shoot them was more due to the fact we wanted to stretch our legs than the necessity to go looking for them.

The fence around the ranch in Namibia didn't bother me as the place was the size of Delaware. I have hunted on far smaller islands. The situation in New Zealand was somewhat different. It's hard to guess the acreage as it was mostly vertical, but it was a lot smaller. So I tried to make the best of it. I spotted a Red Stag in the distance and told the outfitter that was the one I wanted and I wouldn't shoot any other. He was hard to stalk considering you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting another deer that would panic the rest.

I could have shot "a" deer several times a day. But it took me several days to get close to "that" deer.

Still, lesson learned. I now know where to draw my personal line. I'd challenge anyone to tell me that what I did in Namibia wasn't hunting, as these animals could cross the horizon and never encounter a fence. Eventually they would, but hours away. The New Zealand thing? It wasn't shameful but not my finest hour.

quote:

To kill most African game all you need is a wallet - especially so if you shoot a canned lion (which ironically costs less than a 21 day in Tanz). How many posters here have a huge trophy room full of African game surrounded by a 5x5 elk, a so-so whitetail, and zero sheep or goats? Why is that?

I disagree. I have shot more N american game than African game, but you are right, its mostly the African trophies that are displayed. Why? more exotic, to my eye more spectacular,and, lets face it, dangerous game is just that; dangerous!
I hunt whitetail and elk every year,go on safari every other year. I dont mount every whitetail or elk, but i do mount most african trophies.
By the way, african plains game is much cheaper than similar N american hunts
cheers

Well, okay.

Anybody else care to re-open the "30.06 vs.308 on PG" debate?

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Well, okay.

Anybody else care to re-open the "30.06 vs.308 on PG" debate?

Why bother. Anyone who can shoot well and understands shot plavement knows either will do a job. It's the shooters skill that matters. Not any difference between these two calibres. They're pretty damn similar anyway. The clue is in the history of these two.....

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
"I would also say that I have had far more negative hunting experiences in North America than I have had in any other part of the world". Truer words were never spoken. I forgot to add to my comments above. Another thing I (my experience) have never heard near the "stories" about hunters mistake in other countries as I have heard in North America. I always thought when I would do something wrong "The is the story for next camp". I once told a guide in western US when he was telling about another hunters mistake to just SHUT THE F*CK UP! and you can guess what size of tip I left him.

If guides or PH"s feel the need to tell stories about hunters only tell good ones. I just can't imange they are that stupid to think the person hearing the story isn't setting there think well I guess I will be the next story. Maybe we should start a forum "Guides Screw ups". Sorry to go off on a tangent.

I totally agree. I've heard stories of otherr peoples misfortune. Any true proffesional would show some discretion.

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I'd be willing to bet more than 75% of the nay sayers to canned lion hunting would suddenly have a chnage of heart if they would suddenly come into a cash windfall allowing for them to make such a hunt.

2th doc,

I'm afraiad I'm going to call BS on the above quote. I hunted/toured in RSA a couple of times and covered quite a bit of territoy there. One of the most interesting non-hunting adventures was a visit to a lion breeding facility. The place was immaculate, very secure and the lions were obviously well taken care of but it never crossed my mind that I'd want to shoot one of them. They were zoo animals and nothing else. At that time for $25,000 I could have picked the one I wanted, had it released and shot it in about 3 days. It just did not appeal to me in the slightest. If that's what someone else would like to do it would be fine but it's not my cup of tea.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Originally posted by 2th doc:
I'd be willing to bet more than 75% of the nay sayers to canned lion hunting would suddenly have a chnage of heart if they would suddenly come into a cash windfall allowing for them to make such a hunt.

2th doc,

I'm afraiad I'm going to call BS on the above quote. I hunted/toured in RSA a couple of times and covered quite a bit of territoy there. One of the most interesting non-hunting adventures was a visit to a lion breeding facility. The place was immaculate, very secure and the lions were obviously well taken care of but it never crossed my mind that I'd want to shoot one of them. They were zoo animals and nothing else. At that time for $25,000 I could have picked the one I wanted, had it released and shot it in about 3 days. It just did not appeal to me in the slightest. If that's what someone else would like to do it would be fine but it's not my cup of tea.

Mark

Totally agree Mark. The "windfall" 2th Doc describes won't buy a regular 21 day hunt. So lots of guys who have bought a 21 day hunt with no guarantee of success have obviously passed on a canned hunt.

I have absolutely no desire to do this. I wouldn't do it if it were free.

155 replies prior to mine on the topic really does not account for much. My taste does not run towards hunting confined animals of any breed but I can not see where the doctor's quote could be proven or not.
I witnessed a truck loaded with huge whitetail bucks being hauled to a hunting ranch in south Texas pull into a rest area. The driver told me the ranch had a client list that contained some of the best known names in the camo industry so someone must enjoy it.

Degas, those were for the tough hunts to be recorded for TV shows promoting the various camo patters that were the main reason for the sucessful hunt shown Sat morning. I guess they are correct in saying the camo was the main resason for the sucess since it provided the big bucks, pun intended, for the "hunt". Granted those Texas hunts are not canned they are preasure "cooked" and served up.

I've never hunted Texas for deer or exotics but from what I've read some of those fenced ranches are every bit as large as some fenced game ranches in Africa where the animals are also reared as livestock and trucked in for the great safari hunter. My point, fenced or not some of these hunters go days before seeing the game animal they seek.It would seem to me there is a vast difference in shooting a deer or lion in a 1 hector pen vs. seeking them on 3,000 hectors.

wanna be a hunter? come run down a whitetail deer in Maine. find it, track it and kill it.

your opinion may vary, bwana.