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Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
Tip whatever you wish. but unless he's the owner of the company, please remember the PH probably makes a hell of a lot less income than the client, and any tip is really, truly appreciated!

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Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

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Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
As Zimfrosty correctly says: For many PH's this is their main job & scorce of income. Example: in Tanzania, where most hunting safaris are done July to mid November; if a PH did 4 - 21 day safaris (which is quite good in these days) based on salary alone, he would most likely still (I believe) be below poverty level income in America! (assuming his only employment) and I know quite a few PHs who do far less number of safari days per year.

Tip whatever you wish. but unless he's the owner of the company, please remember the PH probably makes a hell of a lot less income than the client, and any tip is really, truly appreciated!

But still substantially more than the poverty line in whichever African country they choose to live and operate in. It isn't comparable. The cost of living, housing, etc is also substantially less. In other words, an average US wage in Africa would in most cases make you comparatively rich locally.

If it isn't possible to cover costs and make a reasonable/good living, they need to charge more or do something else. Tips shouldn't have to be relied upon...

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So because tipping is not accepted in the medical or other professional fields, that makes it inappropriate in other service industries? I do not buy that.

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Originally posted by JabaliHunter:


If it isn't possible to cover costs and make a reasonable/good living, they need to charge more or do something else. Tips shouldn't have to be relied upon...

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Originally posted by zimFrosty:

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Originally posted by JabaliHunter:


If it isn't possible to cover costs and make a reasonable/good living, they need to charge more or do something else. Tips shouldn't have to be relied upon...

ok, so if an operator charged say $150(varying DG and PG obviously) a day, more on the daily rate and published all tips and gratuities were included in the rate, how many hunters would go for this as a set in stone policy rather than voluntarily pay the PH and camp staff what they feel is a deserved tip.......I would be really interested to hear everyones views on this .
My view is that it should not be a set in stone principle as it allows poor service to creep in and as the amount is set, the tip amount is the same.
No I still believe that a PH and staff should work as hard as possible to make a clients trip the best it can possibly be, and it is purely and simply the clients decision to tip as they see fit. Debating the cost of living and earnings of PHs and Clients etc is irrelevant. The general consensus in this entire thread is simply that Tips should never be expected, but are always welcomed and the decision on whether to tip,or how much to tip lies squarely with the client.

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......and only time I did not receive a tip from a a very wealthy and well known individual was when I booted him out of camp for swearing at my staff. I gave him a tip, a verbal one.

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Originally posted by 500 Fan:
First off lets not call this fee that is EXPECTED a tip or at least not in the traditional terms.

My wife and I experienced, what we consider, the ultimate embarrasment pulled by our PH in Tanzania 3 1/2 years ago and yes it still makes me hot! We had arranged, ahead of time, with a well known Safari company-who posts here-to pay the majority of our tip after the safari due to the fact we were traveling to two other countries after we left TZ and did not want to have over 2K of U.S. currency on us.

After hunting on the last hunt day our PH sat us down in the lodge and we talked about tips and gave him some med's we had and told him we would send more from the U.S. and gave him $350.00 U.S. and some clothes he had expressed an interest in when we were hunting and told him he would get more $$$ from the company when we settled up on the account as had been agreed upon.

He then proceeded to bring the Government scout in and told us to give him $350.00 for his services. Nice way to solidify things with the G-man at our cost, which we did. After I expressed my displeasure at this stunt he then called in all 11 of the hunting and camp staff and paraded them in front of us saying they, meaning my wife and I, want to talk to you!!! We gave all the cash we had and half of our clothes not to mention the 10 multi-tools we had already given as gifts to many of these same guys and the anti-poaching staff and all of the school items we brought for a local school, almost a suitcase full. When I got in the PH's face about this he said, "I want to make sure everyone gets something they are very poor."

Although this guy had a vested interest in his countrymen, as he grew up in the is area of Tanzania, this is still a cold blooded stunt.

No I did not tell the U.S. owner until months later after we paid the balance of the increased government fees-no fault of the safari company and in all fairness they did help us get a better rate on our returned trophies. But we did send the med's we promised and a pair of binoculars to the head tracker. We've never heard one word after that.

Did it matter that we had to put up with a rich asshole from Texas and his mini-me adult son and all of their "me first" condesending crap? No offense to nice rich Texans. But hey, they are wealthy and regular customers of the safari company. Did it matter that another very well known PH spent a few days in camp with his "VERY VOCAL" AND USUALLY DRUNK WIFE? Or did it matter that they would have drunken arguments in their tent after lunch when we all were "taking a few minutes"? No, we were still expected to "tip" as usual.

I read a comment,that is part of this thread, that we should tip cuz the PH has had to "risk his life". Now this is the biggest of all. PH's are PH's because it is prestigeous and a good life, for the most part, and it is what they want to do. They work as a PH for the same reasons we hunters Hunt, especailly dangerous game!

I was in Law Enforcement for 33 years with a major state agencey and about 20 of that undercover---don't tell me about risking your life--- I've risked my life too, I don't ask anything of anyone cuz I knew that was part of the deal going in like Law Enforcement Office AND EVERY PH.

If that is the criteria then we better start paying out to our two sons, one in the Army and one in the Air Force who truly do risk their lives and the thousands of other men and women who do the same. But you know what even if we did our sons, and I'm sure most others, would not take a penny because they too knew that going in and they are doing what they do for reasons far greater than money.

How about the safari company to whom we paid their recommended amount at about 15% and on top of that an additional $150 to the tracker, $75 to the cook and $40 to the housekeeper--US $$$'s. Then when we felt we were being double charged by the company that did the dipping and crating because they said their is an extra shipping charge "over and above" we were told by the PH, that's between you and them. No matter they recommended that company and they were the ones who had sent our head, horns and capes to them.

If my wife and I were hard to get along with I could understand but if we have a fault I guess it is we are not.

So let's call "tipping" what it is, it IS A SURCHARGE that you will pay even if you have to put up with crap in camp or things don't measure up like it or not.

So, is just that and let's not be trying to cover it up like a cat in the sandbox by using excuses of people risking their life and other veiled comments to hide the fact of what it is and Americans get the jab everytime and if we don't like it--I guess the safari companies figure there are enough fish in the sea. Maybe being the guppy is my own fault!

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Yes staff sometimes expect it everytime but that is not the client's problem it's the outfitters to resolve the matter.

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Originally posted by RayRay:
Fairgame,

If a client set you down and explained his position was not in favor of traditional tips how would you react? In other words, it was nothing against you and no problem with the safari, only that his stance on tips were in conflict with yours. Both you and the client have polarized views on the subject, what do you do?

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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
this is a long thread and I am not sure I have commented before, but one thing that really pisses me of is a PH who treats the staff like crap. If you want a nice tip, treat others with respect.

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Originally posted by Pepperpot:
without names your post are worthless. do your fellow forum members a solid and give them a heads up. i cannot imagine why you would want to protect a ph who pulled a stunt like this, its not like you are going to hunt with them again, is it?

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Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Coming from New Zealand where we do not have a tipping culture (I know some will try & dispute this!) I struggle with this subject.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by Pepperpot:
without names your post are worthless. do your fellow forum members a solid and give them a heads up. i cannot imagine why you would want to protect a ph who pulled a stunt like this, its not like you are going to hunt with them again, is it?

I tend to disagree and 500 Fan has well illustrated a negative example of tipping without calling names.

I am sure if you sent him a PM or gave him a call he would be able to satisfy your interest.

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Originally posted by 7kongoni:
I feel compelled to add my most recent tipping experience....In 2010 I retired and as my retirement gift to myself I decided to go for one of those big Botswana elephant bulls. They are expensive but I figured it was "now or never". I had a great hunt and when it came time to settle up I gave the PH $2K and said "this is all I have--for everyone". He did a lot of figuring and then passed out the tips in the traditional manner by calling the staff in one at a time, handed them the money and indicated it was from me. Towards the end of the process it occured to me the PH had taken no money for himself. I felt horrible that I had not brought enough money and asked him why he kept zero for himself. He replied that both he and the staff enjoyed the hunt and that was good enough for him. The following day we were off to Kasane where he found me lodging, took me shoping and refused to allow me to pay for lunch stating that he "was not only my professional hunter but my host as well". He was a perfect gentleman and very gracious despite receiving no tip. Some months later, after getting a federal income tax refund, I contacted him as how to send him his proper tip. He refused, citing the same reasons as before...he and the staff had enjoyed the hunt and that was good enough for him. His name is Gareth Flemix--he works for Greg Butler Safaris and I highly recommend him.

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Originally posted by 500 Fan:
JBrown does a nice job of detective 101 but making assumptions like that is just as wrong as...

fairgame seemed to grasp the point of what I was trying to get at and back it up with fact and experience. I was not trying to bury the Safari Company if that were my intent I'd have done that long ago in other ways.

I've made my point you all can make whatever rookie assumptions you like.

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Originally posted by 500 Fan:
our trophies from Tanzania were a breeze for a more than reasonable price even considering all the trouble in Tanzania in 2007. Adam Clements of Tanzania Game Trackers/Bundu Safaris. Same deal over the top on game/trophy quality, camps, staff, FOOD--everything. I expected difficulty with the shipments, they were a breeze and Adam and the staff were very apologetic for things beyond their control.

Thus, we highly recommend both of these businesses without reservation but pay attention to ALL the details and discuss these things on the front and back end (have All the details worked out) before you sign on the dotted line and send the $$$'s.

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Originally posted by 500 Fan:
The 470 class cartridges will put a real hurt on a buffalo but the 500 will crumple or send them looking for cover as best they can. However, as we discussed shot placement my Tanzania PH Paul Horsley told me the week after my wife and I hunted Masiland and killed two buffalo with two shots each with my 416 Rigby a gun brought a 577 and gut shot a 45" bull that got away. About 5 days later it was found in the park and after almost 10 days of negotiation with the game dept. they were able to go in and recover the skull and horns. Not something I'd be proud of.

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starting to get very expensive

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Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

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starting to get very expensive

Starting? The PH "recommend $2000", for himself? And you ended up giving a total of $4700.

IMHO the whole system is out of control.

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Originally posted by Hallgeir Gravrok:
What were the total cost for the safari?
I think this is way too high.

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Originally posted by sandyhunter:
Aaron, on my hunt last year, I did almost exactly what you did with tips. Sure, it's a lot of money, and sure, I worked very hard to earn it, but that doesn't make it any less deserved by the people who received it. As I noted above, when one budgets ahead for tipping (and airfare, taxidermy, side trips, etc.), there's no problem with unexpected expenses. Especially when dreaming of and planning a first safari, hunters often think of the price of a hunt in terms of only daily rate and trophy fees, and don't consider many of the extras. I was guilty of this when I first started planning my safari, but I quickly realized I was dealing with big numbers and needed to get a firm understanding of exactly how much I would be spending. I put together an Excel spreadsheet detailing expenses, e-mailed the safari company every question that I had (to the point of annoyance, I'm sure), and ended up with nothing but positive surprises on my trip. And I feel good about giving healthy tips to everyone who made the experience great.

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As I noted above, when one budgets ahead for tipping (and airfare, taxidermy, side trips, etc.), there's no problem with unexpected expenses.