Lane, I think using one day of daily rate as a baseline for the PH's tip may be fine for a short hunt, especially in a DG area where daily rates are decently high. But that may not work as well on a long safari. In some cases, it may be better to use a baseline of 10% of the total daily rate paid for all days, and then go up or down from there. And that's just for the PH. For staff, it makes sense to ask the PH ahead of time what is normally given and then use a little discretion at the time of payment. The same goes for game scouts, if the practice in the area is to tip them. With these numbers, you can figure out a range to prepare for and include that range in your budget. Another way to frame it is to put a fixed tip figure in your budget but then also budget an extra thousand or two to cover the unexpected, including the unexpected need to tip extra for an exceptional experience. Of course, this is just what makes sense to me, and I don't claim that it's a hard and fast rule everyone should follow.

I think OldHandgunhunter has it right.....everyone has their own view on tipping . To tip or not to tip and how much to tip is a personal opinion and no amount of discussion will ever create consensus. Tipping is completely the jurisdiction of the Client. Ask the PH/Outfitter for input by all means.....but being instructed or forced into tipping is bad form indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Wow! A rather heated topic, but understandably so.

I'm not sure I can say what's right or wrong, but I do believe this. Never should the PH/Outfitter assume or insist the hunter MUST tip anyone, him included. I do appreciate when they give me guidance as to the amount I should give, when I ask. But lately I have seen it feel more like, "here's the tip bill too", don't forget it! And frankly, the bill is often pretty expensive as well.

Last week, I finished a 3 week safari in the CAR. Now, by no means did the PH/Outfitter insist I tip anything, they handled it just fine. I asked for their input, they gave it to me, but told me the final decision on tips/amount was totally up to me. I gave the PH $3,000.00, they recommended about $2,000.00, but I was really please with his efforts. The staff, including the trackers, I tipped $1,350.00 total, as they suggested. Then, I gave each tracker (3), an additional $100.00 as I too was pleased with their efforts. Lastly, the shower water dude, I kept him so busy with bringing me cold water during the day to quickly rinse off with, that I gave him an additional $50.00 for his efforts as well! Total, I tipped $4,700.00, plus some socks, a couple leatherman's for the trackers, etc. This tipping game is starting to get very expensive, but not sure what to do about it???

Aaron there is probably not much you can do about it now in terms of the general practice of tipping but by paying the sort of tips you are, the situation is only being exacerbated and expectations being driven up to the point where the less well off hunters will never get to experience a hunt in Africa.

It continues to amaze me that most on these forums complaining about the practice or asking for guidance on what is the expected level of tipping, are your own countrymen from the country that invented the insidious practice and who continue to perpetrate the practice.

I have always viewed the practice as only a tiny step away from graft and of course it takes two parties to tango.

All I would ask is that you never come to my country and stuff it up by tipping. Despite what some may try to pass as accepted in NZ, tipping is mostly definitely not acceptable here and the average kiwi will not tolerate the practice so please please leave it at home.

Eagle27:

quote:

All I would ask is that you never come to my country and stuff it up by tipping. Despite what some may try to pass as accepted in NZ, tipping is mostly definitely not acceptable here and the average kiwi will not tolerate the practice so please please leave it at home.

If feel this gesture to be a malpractice all you have to do is politely reject it when and if offered - no big deal.

Questions: when dining out in NZ does one find a service charge on the bill? - Bellhops and Hotel doormen never get a "handshake"?

As stated time and again on this subject, tipping is regarded as a sign or token of appreciation for a service well rendered and is never to be considered as compulsory on the part of the benefactor.

Aaron you naughty naughty fellow...Imagine exacerbating an insidious practice

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Eagle27:

quote:

All I would ask is that you never come to my country and stuff it up by tipping. Despite what some may try to pass as accepted in NZ, tipping is mostly definitely not acceptable here and the average kiwi will not tolerate the practice so please please leave it at home.

If feel this gesture to be a malpractice all you have to do is politely reject it when and if offered - no big deal.

Questions: when dining out in NZ does one find a service charge on the bill? - Bellhops and Hotel doormen never get a "handshake"?

As stated time and again on this subject, tipping is regarded as a sign or token of appreciation for a service well rendered and is never to be considered as compulsory on the part of the benefactor.

Most definitely not, the only thing I pay on any bill is the usual 15% Goods & Service Tax (GST)which is a Government tax. Some restaurants try adding a surcharge on Public Holidays to recover the extra holiday in lieu they must pay to staff but this was met with such resistance when tried that most do not attempt it now.
As for doorman or bellhops as you call them, they can stand with their hand out as much as they like, I carry my own bags and park my own car and they will never see anything from me. They are paid fair wages in our country. I bet they would be the first to squeal if they went to the supermarket, doctor, dentist or motor mechanic and were expected to tip them for their service.
Why the hell do hotel or eatery staff or as it seems hunting guides, think they should be treated different than anyone else when providing a service, in my country anyway.

The point is ,quite simply, that it is your decision on whether to tip or not. If Aaron chooses to tip handsomely for what he considers is excellent service, then that is his choice. Telling him not to do it simply because you dont believe in it or it isnt the norm in your country is certainly not your prerogative.You are telling him not to tip in your country because you dont like it......sorry, but your expecting Aaron to live by your beliefs and abandon his own......does that mean when you visit his country, you would abandon yours???

Its been said through out this entire thread. The decision to tip, or not to tip is or should be made entirely by the client. As Fujo said, if you choose not to then no one will castigate you for it.....your choice...simple.

Oh and the biggest tip I ever received was from a Kiwi ....so they cant all be bad blokes

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Wow! A rather heated topic, but understandably so.

I'm not sure I can say what's right or wrong, but I do believe this. Never should the PH/Outfitter assume or insist the hunter MUST tip anyone, him included. I do appreciate when they give me guidance as to the amount I should give, when I ask. But lately I have seen it feel more like, "here's the tip bill too", don't forget it! And frankly, the bill is often pretty expensive as well.

Last week, I finished a 3 week safari in the CAR. Now, by no means did the PH/Outfitter insist I tip anything, they handled it just fine. I asked for their input, they gave it to me, but told me the final decision on tips/amount was totally up to me. I gave the PH $3,000.00, they recommended about $2,000.00, but I was really please with his efforts. The staff, including the trackers, I tipped $1,350.00 total, as they suggested. Then, I gave each tracker (3), an additional $100.00 as I too was pleased with their efforts. Lastly, the shower water dude, I kept him so busy with bringing me cold water during the day to quickly rinse off with, that I gave him an additional $50.00 for his efforts as well! Total, I tipped $4,700.00, plus some socks, a couple leatherman's for the trackers, etc. This tipping game is starting to get very expensive, but not sure what to do about it???

Aaron there is probably not much you can do about it now in terms of the general practice of tipping but by paying the sort of tips you are, the situation is only being exacerbated and expectations being driven up to the point where the less well off hunters will never get to experience a hunt in Africa.

It continues to amaze me that most on these forums complaining about the practice or asking for guidance on what is the expected level of tipping, are your own countrymen from the country that invented the insidious practice and who continue to perpetrate the practice.

I have always viewed the practice as only a tiny step away from graft and of course it takes two parties to tango.

All I would ask is that you never come to my country and stuff it up by tipping. Despite what some may try to pass as accepted in NZ, tipping is mostly definitely not acceptable here and the average kiwi will not tolerate the practice so please please leave it at home.

Eagle27 - I wasn't really complaining about tipping, just agreeing that to some degree it can be a problem for folks, me included.

I have hunted NZ, and yes, I tipped my guide/staff. As they did an excellent job, and I felt the earned/deserved it.

Perhaps tipping is an insidious practice, started by us Americans. Or perhaps, its our way of sharing with others, and rewarding those who worked hard on our behalf. I would rather spend a little extra, and share my good fortune with others who helped me along the way. Than be selfish and cheap, simply because I want everything all for myself! I couldn't imagine a world where sharing with others is NOT ACCEPTABLE?? Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!!

Aaron, I'm afraid your wrong. It should read Australia, The greatest..
And we don't need to rely on tips for a living..

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!!

Aaron, I'm afraid your wrong. It should read Australia, The greatest..
And we don't need to rely on tips for a living..

OZ - I haven't hunted Australia yet, but I do look forward to it soon. So my question to you is this. Would my guide/staff on the hunt, honestly not be expecting/hoping for a tip? I mean that as a sincere question.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!!

Aaron, I'm afraid your wrong. It should read Australia, The greatest..
And we don't need to rely on tips for a living..

I thought Austalia was the land of gun control where fellow hunters had to hand over there guns that did not meet government criteria...like a good Benelli semi-auto shotgun for instance.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!!

Aaron, I'm afraid your wrong. It should read Australia, The greatest..
And we don't need to rely on tips for a living..

I thought Austalia was the land of gun control where fellow hunters had to hand over there guns that did not meet government criteria...like a good Benelli semi-auto shotgun for instance.

Ya OZ, what's up with that?? We might tip too much, but at least we have full gun ownership rights, etc!

Aaron,

That's a very good question. I too hope to hunt a water buffalo and a banteng at some point. It would be hard to imagine that the PH and crew on the hunt would not expect some sort of gratuity. If that really would be insulting I'd like to know about it up front. I mean no sarcasm here as I'm completely ignorant on the subject of hunt tipping in Australia.

Mark

[/QUOTE]

Eagle27 - I wasn't really complaining about tipping, just agreeing that to some degree it can be a problem for folks, me included.

I have hunted NZ, and yes, I tipped my guide/staff. As they did an excellent job, and I felt the earned/deserved it.

Perhaps tipping is an insidious practice, started by us Americans. Or perhaps, its our way of sharing with others, and rewarding those who worked hard on our behalf. I would rather spend a little extra, and share my good fortune with others who helped me along the way. Than be selfish and cheap, simply because I want everything all for myself! I couldn't imagine a world where sharing with others is NOT ACCEPTABLE?? Maybe that's why we silly Americans still refer to the good ole USofA, as the greatest country on earth!!![/QUOTE]

Nice to be generous and to share your good fortune with those who helped you along the way. So you tip your surgeon, doctor, dentist, gas station attendant, utility serviceman, fireman, insurance agent, the checkout girls, the shop assistant, etc, etc ,etc. I think not!!!!

Tipping seems for some reason to have developed in the hotel, restaurant trade and now spread of all places, into the world of professional hunters or guides. In this latter area and going by some of the stories on this forum, it is expected as part of the deal to tip and to tip well. Despite everyone saying it is up to the individual as to what he tips if indeed he does, when it is a practice that is expected on every safari, it is not then a voluntary sharing of good fortune.

What about the many who have not had the good fortune, who come from countries who may not enjoy the same fruits of their labour as many in the USA, but nevertheless have worked hard and saved towards their dream to hunt in Africa and are prepared to sign a contract for that hunt based on the quoted prices for that hunt, and then be faced with the dilemma of forking out some not inconsiderate sums of money for a line up of staff just waiting for the occasion.

Many say that tips are what enables some of the PH's, their families and their native assistants and their families, to live. In that case they are not being paid properly and fairly for their services. That is a shame and a blot on their employers and their country. In these cases relying on tips is nothing short of begging.

Back to my country, anyone involved in the guiding business makes a good living and they themselves would never likely tip anyone else in NZ. They won't tip the deliverer of their supplies, the postman, the fuel delivery for their chopper, etc, etc. Plenty of us kiwis give generously of our time, companionship, experience and friendliness as many of your compatriots attest to, and we do this without any expectation to receive, or as I see it, to be embarrassed, with these under the table payments.

Of course when I do realise my dream of a safari in Africa I will tip, not because I get a great hunt as I expect any guide who calls himself a PH will provide that anyway, but because 'it is the expected thing to do' and god forbid, a part of the culture in that country.

There I think I've ranted myself out enough on this subject now.

Sadly a lot of Aus Outfitters have been corrupted by our northern cousins.
And in all fairness who wouldn't like the reward of a wad of $$ at the end of a job? its just when its required or expected that doesn't makes sense.

On the subject of Semi auto's and gun control.
A good hunting friend of mine owns 2 Mini 14s, two Valmet Hunters and 2 SLRs, so yes If you want a Semi Auto and are not unstable you can get them. And in all honesty I prefer it this way. Oh and me, well I've got more than enough rifles..

It has been said here on this forum(in years past) that if you can't afford to tip, you should not book the hunt. I will inform you that that is just BS.

Very few PHs are booked solid. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority would rather have a 3 week safari booked that did not provide a tip, than no safari booked at all.

This whole tipping thing is out of hand. I have seen several "outfitters" state that the PH relies on his tips to provide for his family. If that is the case I would say that the "outfitter" is underpaying his employees.

And if we are expected to "tip as we can afford", then us public school teacher types should not be expected to tip as well as the oil baron types.

If you are worried that your meager tip might leave your PH and his family in a bind, just remember that someone like Aaron or handgunhunter will likely come along and make up the difference.

I hope what I say does not upset people along national boundaries as that is not my intention. Just looking at facts, I would conclude that tipping is largely an American custom. A high percentage of global hunting is done by Americans and therefore this American practice is setting a trend. As I have indicated in earlier posts, the minimum wages in the US are not fair wages and that is where the problem lies. If everyone paid fair wages in a capitalist system, then we could tip for EXCEPTIONAL service - NOT JUST good service, which is part of the job, for which a fair wage is already paid. That is how bonus systems are supposed to work for sales reps and most managers. You get paid a wage to meet targets. You fall below targets and you get fired. You exceed targets and you get a bonus.

Now we all know that capitalism does not operate in its purest form anywhere. No one even knows what PURE Capitalism is, except for Mr. Forbes of Forbes magazine! Entrepreneurial innovations have evolved in different forms. Modern day institutionalized corruption has much of its roots mostly in colonial history. The developing countries have now taken blatant corruption to new levels. But the sophisticated countries often have a lot of fine print, complex laws, lobbies and "service agents" who oil the wheels with "service fees" that are just hidden bribes. Large western armament companies get huge deals in Africa or Asia. Giant mining & oil companies get similar rights in south America like they used to in Africa and the middle east. Now China is doing it around the world. Yes China is corrupt & pays huge bribes. But did the other western companies not pay such bribes in the past or use indirect lobby groups and "service agent" to do so now?

What is the link between corruption & tips? It is the institutionalization and the automatic expectation. That is the real problem. Now the Australian hunting industry gets more American clients and so tips are becoming an expectation. I hear that tips are also being expected in NZ from all American clients. I know some Kiwi guide who do not like to take on local hunters.

May be it is time that Americans started following the practices of the host countries rather than "export" their own American practices to the rest of the world. May be it is time that the US had a federal law that forces people to pay a fair minimum wage and then cut out all the other state funded extras. Then may be tips will get back their real meaning & people will be encouraged to provide EXCEPTIONAL service more often.

There was a discussion recently here on tipping in the South Pacific http://forums.accuratereloadin...5621043/m/6581084251

if anyone is interested??

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
It has been said here on this forum(in years past) that if you can't afford to tip, you should not book the hunt. I will inform you that that is just BS.

Very few PHs are booked solid. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority would rather have a 3 week safari booked that did not provide a tip, than no safari booked at all.

This whole tipping thing is out of hand. I have seen several "outfitters" state that the PH relies on his tips to provide for his family. If that is the case I would say that the "outfitter" is underpaying his employees.

Are we going to get to the stage where tipping is going to be mandatory?

As in restaurants where they add it as "service charge"?

It might be a good idea, and we can react just as we in a restaurant.

That is refusing to pay it if the service is not up to what we expect.

On at least two occasions, both in 5-star hotels, I have refused to pay the "service" charge because the service was absolutely atrocious, and I made sure they knew about it.

I spent 5 weeks in Australia a few years ago. Circumstances led to me eating in the same place most nights. I was unaware that tipping was not the custom. The first week or so the waiters would chase after me when I left saying,"Sir, you forgot your change". By the third week they were fighting over which of them got to serve me. I don't know if I got better service for it but they were very attentive.

On the other hand, I recently passed through Joberg on a hunt. Despite a 2 hour layover, I was told there was no way that my rifles could possibly make my flight. Once I went in my pocket we had plenty of time. On my way back I used a porter to help carry some bags. He carried 3 bags, I gave him 12 bucks and he called me a cheap bastard and stormed off. Worst part of the trip.

Skinners, trackers, PH all seemed happy with what I thought modest tips.

I guess you never know.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholosi:
through Joberg ......On my way back I used a porter to help carry some bags. He carried 3 bags, I gave him 12 bucks and he called me a cheap bastard and stormed off. Worst part of the trip.

This is part of the problem. You tipped far too much, as many others have, and the porters have come to believe that travelers are "made of money", so they expect huge tips.

If any reasonable tip is accepted in an ungracious manner then you tipped far too much.

JBrown,
I agree that I tipped too much. You can bet it won't happen again. The next guy may have to be satisfied with a hearty thank you.

PH and trackesr/skinners seemed genuinely please with their tips. Maybe it's the difference between someone hoping for repeat business and someone that thinks he'll never see you again.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
On at least two occasions, both in 5-star hotels, I have refused to pay the "service" charge because the service was absolutely atrocious, and I made sure they knew about it.

Although I'm quite sure I have not stayed in as many 5-star hotels at Saeed, I do believe that the 5-star designation can be a "kiss of death", although it may take many years for the public to take their business elsewhere. 5-star tells the staff that they can do nothing wrong and thus the deterioration begins.

Folks,

Sometimes I tend to be black and white on a particular subject and tipping is one of them. It seems like a great deal of people don't like the idea of tipping at all or find it a stressful subject. That's great so don't tip. Who give a crap if people expect it or not. It's your money to do with as you see fit. If on the other hand you want to show someone your gratitude for a job well done do tip and give what you think is appropriate and makes you feel good. If you give a tip it should be a pleasurable expereince for you too. I personally enjoy tipping if it's handled correctly. I do not want anybody telling me what I SHOULD give.

BTW I would have not given the porter in question more than 5 bucks unless he was doing far more than just transporting my bags from point A to B.

Mark

quote:

I would have not given the porter in question more than 5 bucks unless he was doing far more than just transporting my bags from point A to B.

You want to 'splain that one, Lucy!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

... If on the other hand you want to show someone your gratitude for a job well done do tip and give what you think is appropriate and makes you feel good..........

Mark

That is where I have a problem. The wage is for a job well done. If the job is not well done the employee could get fired. I see tipping as something to show appreciation for EXCEPTIONAL service - like the PH who took care of a sick hunter in hospital or similar ....

Russell,

I get the levity but we did have a guy take our bags from curbside, wait an hour with us and then help us check in. He got a $20 and I think it was well worth it.

Nakihunter,

Like I said if you don't want to tip don't. If you think a tip is only appropriate in the case of service far beyond the norm do that too. My point was that folks obsesse or seem to about tipping when they really ca ndo whatever they feel is appropriate. That of course also means that a client can leave a huge tip too if that makes him happy.

Mark