When Sam and I were first starting the barrel strain work one of the big discoveries, which was a great advantage for us as shooters, was that the brass was equal to, less than, and just slightly more in each test than the copper. They were right on top of each other test after test. That is when we decided brass was the way to play, cheaper, harder and deforms less, in my opinion a bit more accurate at ranges we work at, and equal or less barrel strain. There was no downsides to brass.

Then the hoopla about number of bands. In 458 we had Dan make special runs of 3 bands, two top, one bottom. Various sizes of bands to test everything, and found it made little or no difference from the standard 4 band bullet as well. That's when we ceased those tests as it was moot. So 2-3-up to 4 it makes no difference to matter in barrel strain. I think 4 bands as they are current is the perfect match. 3 Bands top-neck tension, ease of loading, plenty of bearing surface for accuracy and options in which to seat the bullet, with the rear band keeping everything lined up as it enters the bore! You have to have that rear band, we know that for a fact. So the current 4 band BBW#13 is the perfect setup in my opinion for all purposes.

Accurate! I can tell you this, at the ranges we shoot DG bullets there will be nothing that can beat the brass BBW#13s, and some other CNC brass bullets! All of them will be in hole at 50 yds, and the only fliers will be YOU. Since I started shooting the Lehighs some years ago it was incredible. Everything I shot the brass in, all big bore calibers over time it has proven the most consistent, followed by the CNC coppers and then all the rest. Accuracy test is a waste of time, no "component" bullet can consistently perform with a CNC bullet in any big bore rifle I have ever shot here. Fact.

Again, all data for the 500 Nitro work is located here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html

Other work and data on the other doubles and 458s are on the same page with this work, under Additional Research

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html

Just FYI for those not familiar and that are just now seeing if any.

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Jim,

Remember we are dealing with a different caliber and cartridge in these tests. Most of what we did in the 470 has shown the same results in the 500.

Sam

10-4... Thanks Sam.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam and I had our work cut out for us yesterday, we spent from around 8 am to around 5:30 pm or 6 on the range. It was a long day to say the least.

When we first started the pressures and barrel strain work we had a short test of fillers, dacron and foam backer rod. Of which there were some major differences in pressures and velocities of those, much to our surprise. Yesterday we investigated this with some different fillers with the same load.

Here are the results of that;




As you can see there are some EXTREME differences with some of these fillers that could drive pressures beyond safe limits and cause lot's of issues for you!

Michael

I thought I'd bring this one back up because there have been questions about fillers.

Sam

Sam,

Have y'all tested the "real Kynoch" foam plugs?

Lane,

I have used open cell foam like Kynoch but not the actual Kynoch product. We did test some rounds with this but I don't know why we didn't include it in data. We probably had some issues with chrono or PT and just didn't get it written down. As I recall they were very similar to foam backer rod. If you have some of the real ones we can surely test them.

Lane,

I just noticed that we had two foam backer rod results at the top. This could be one backer rod and one open cell foam. Not for sure but I know we tested open cell foam. Maybe it just got written down wrong.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Lane,

I just noticed that we had two foam backer rod results at the top. This could be one backer rod and one open cell foam. Not for sure but I know we tested open cell foam. Maybe it just got written down wrong.

Sam

Very Possible, one that it could be open cell, and the other, it could have been written down incorrectly and recorded incorrectly. When we did the 470 Nitro, I was still undecided as to how to save, and label some of the data. I have improved on that today and since.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Lane,

I just noticed that we had two foam backer rod results at the top. This could be one backer rod and one open cell foam. Not for sure but I know we tested open cell foam. Maybe it just got written down wrong.

Sam

Sam,
Supposedly...the Kynoch foam is unique and is not treated with fire retardants which could alter "stored" ammo.

I would be happy to send y'all some to test if you want to.

Lane,

If you would like to see them tested send them.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Sam,
Supposedly...the Kynoch foam is unique and is not treated with fire retardants which could alter "stored" ammo.

I would be happy to send y'all some to test if you want to.

Lane

Yes, Send some samples of that and we can take a look at it. Also, for barrel strains send some samples of any of the bullets not tested that you might have in .510 caliber. Do you have my address, if not I will PM it to you.

Michael

Michael,

Please do PM the address. I am going to send the following:

1) Kynoch brand .510 foam fillers.

2) Swift .510 570's (tell me how many you need)

3) .510 570 NF FPS

4) 450 gr .510 Woodleigh Softs - please test these as follows: load over 86 gr of R-15 some with a Kynoch wad AND some with a foam backer rod wad. Supposed to be a good regulating practice load. I can send these loaded if you would rather...your call.

Lane

Let's see, # of bullets? Have been doing two in a test, but would be happy with anything from 6 or so at least, in case of a retest for any weird reason.

For the 450 Woodleighs I can't find having any of those? We have 440s. Sam? Send enough Kynoch wads, have plenty of foam backer rod. Will load here no problems.

Sent address on our PM powder thread. Good to go.

I think Sam is planning on Tuesday to go back to work on the project! So we might get some of this done then, and I can fill in the gaps in his absence.

M

Unless something happens...I will overnight them via Fed Ex tomorrow.

Lane if you are talking about 450 grain .510 bullets for the 50-110 I have those and Michael should have some in all the stuff I left him. We'll get those tested for you. Sorry Lane I'm thinking of Barnes originals. I don't have Woodleigh 450s.

Just Re-Posting some of the barrel strain data taken. Keeping it together.









Michael

OK Michael458, I gave up and ordered several boxext s of BBW(what, Big Butted Woman?) in .474 for my Ferlach 470 double, am planning on taking them to the Selous in August. I have got plenty of good soft nose waited to be loaded but could not stand reading all about the BBW13 and feel like I have got to try them or be left out! I appreciate your hard work on these new bullets for old men! Thanks kld

quote:

BBW(what, Big Butted Woman?)

That’s a good one!!!

Actually BBW is the acronym that Michael bestowed upon Sam’s prototyping bullet work early within the ‘Terminal Bullet Performance’ thread in the BB Forums…basically alledging that Sam was cutting his bullets by hand with a bastard file and it grew from that. The BBW actually stands for Bastard File Bullet Works.

Michael and Sam
I had a chance, before I sent my Searcy off for a new stock and before my shoulder surgery, to shoot the 500 gr CEB's and the 460 gr Noncon's in the .470. With 106 gr of IMR 4831 and a fed 215 primer, they printed to the same poi as the regulation load that Butch gave me for Woodleighs. They shot very well. I did not get a chance to Chrono them but Butch told me that his reg load is chrono'd at about 2250 in his .470's. Thanks. When I get it back I will have plenty of time to fine tune the load a bit but I believe that they will work.

pagosawingnut,

Glad to hear those bullets worked out for you and shot well. Depending on your barrel length you should get around 2150 fps with those loads.

Sam

When I get it back from Butch and the doc clears me to shoot again, I will chrono those loads and let you know what they do. Thanks
Rick

Rick,

Sometimes it can be the can of powder that changes things. The first lot of 4831 I used in my Searcy and my Chapuis 470 gave me 2230 fps but I have not found anymore that would do that with 106 grains. 2150 is all you need and really want out of a double.

Sam

Well men here they are, freshly loaded BBW's for my 450NE 3 1/4". I used the same load as I do for the Hornadys. I'll report back this weekend after the range session. For comparison, I've included a 480gr DGX and Woodleigh as well. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Well men here they are, freshly loaded BBW's for my 450NE 3 1/4". I used the same load as I do for the Hornadys. I'll report back this weekend after the range session. For comparison, I've included a 480gr DGX and Woodleigh as well. jorge

I predict you will not be going back to Hornady or Woodleigh!

Jorge,

I'm with Todd on this. Verney-Carron doubles seem to love CEB #13 solids and Non-Cons.

BTW Michael and Sam,

I've PM'ed and emailed Gerard about the sizes of his 500NE and 600NE GSC FN bullets. Just trying to understand why the difference in the "commonly accepted" diameters i.e. .510" and .620" vs. what he produces, i.e. .512" and .613".

Guys, I certainly hope so. Did you guys have to vary the charge to adjust the bullets to POI?

Jorge,

Not for the 375Flanged, 450/400 or 600NE. I never tried them in the 450NE and hope that you have the same results.

Perfect, that is exactly what I was hoping for as I'm almost to the limit in case capacity with H-4831 and I'm not changing powders.

Our boy 450NE, Mike, has a 450NE of course and he is shooting BBW#13s in his. I forgot about that, maybe he is paying attention and will chime in on it for you Jorge.

Bad luck today.. Had a very ambitious plan this morning! Started at 7 am hoping to get the Barrel Strains completed in 500 Nitro! One of those little tiny wires disconnected from the connector on the strain gage! Gees--Damn thing is so tiny I have to have a lope and my glasses to even begin to see. So I am hoping that I can straighten the wire and put it back in the connector and glue the hell out of it! OK, after much fumbling I actually get the little wire back in, and ShaZam I have a connection! So I pour the glue to it--set it aside and give it a couple of hours to dry.

In the meantime I do some finalizing on a 500 MDM loads that is going to Africa, and get Andrews rifle 100% good to go.

Figure my glue is dry now. So I get the 500 Nitro, hook up, and YES I Have a connection! Excellent!

First is always the BENCHMARK BULLET--570 Woodleigh Soft! Trace 1--15700 Trace 2--31000????
Giant Bump at the end! OK, but 15700 falls in close to the very first Barrel strain we did with the 500 Nitro. OK, next I will try something I have plenty of left over--570 Wood FMJ. Trace 1 18000 +-, Trace 2 22000 +-, but the 22000 is not 22000, big bump at the end causes it to be 22000! OK, well 18000 is a little less than the last test, so lets do another. 570 Hornady DGS. Trace 1 35000+- ???? Trace 2 17000+- OK OK--the gage is buggered! And then I would just breath on it and it would give a flat trace! So it was over--NO BARREL STTRAINS--Have to do another strain gage now. All data today invalid.

So now I am back to shooting sticks again! Definitely not going to get as much done as I had planned to do today! Sorry!

Back to it!
Michael

Michael, do you need me to send you some more TSX's?

Jorge,

I didn't change a thing on powder or load from what I was using with the Barnes Banded. What I did get was about 100fps more velocity which caused the bullet holes to just touch at 50yds. I might back down 1 grain but haven't been to the range in a bit. I think you'll like the CEB's.

Thanks, I have two loads ready for testing one at the same amount the other a grain less. I'm very much looking forward to the testing this weekend. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks, I have two loads ready for testing one at the same amount the other a grain less. I'm very much looking forward to the testing this weekend. jorge

Jorge,

My Merkel .500 NE did not like the CEB's seated as deep as you have yours...although I know Sam has a rifle that does. I had to move mine out the width of the top band and crimp againt the bottom of it in the top groove.

If they don't shoot great there...you could try that provided you have enough throat. That will give you a tad bit more capacity as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael, do you need me to send you some more TSX's?

No Todd, still good to go, I did not shoot any of those or anything that I did not have more of. When I saw the second trace on the 500 Woodleigh I knew there was an issue with the gage, so I only tried bullets that I could replace. I only shot about 8 rounds before giving up. Thanks however.


I am going to get another gage on it by this weekend.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks, I have two loads ready for testing one at the same amount the other a grain less. I'm very much looking forward to the testing this weekend. jorge

Jorge,

My Merkel .500 NE did not like the CEB's seated as deep as you have yours...although I know Sam has a rifle that does. I had to move mine out the width of the top band and crimp againt the bottom of it in the top groove.

If they don't shoot great there...you could try that provided you have enough throat. That will give you a tad bit more capacity as well.

I didn't look at the picture close enough. I also seated and crimped mine in the first groove from the nose.

Guys: seated to the last groove gives you close to max OAL according to the reloading manual and exaclty the same OAL as the Woodleigh and DGXs. I figured I'd go that way first.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Guys: seated to the last groove gives you close to max OAL according to the reloading manual and exaclty the same OAL as the Woodleigh and DGXs. I figured I'd go that way first.

Yep...a good to start for sure. Use the "cleaning rod method" to get a max OAL for your rifle with the CEB BBW#13. You might be surprised to see how "jump" you have with the bullet seated where you have it.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Our boy 450NE, Mike, has a 450NE of course and he is shooting BBW#13s in his. I forgot about that, maybe he is paying attention and will chime in on it for you Jorge.

Michael

Actually I haven't tried to send any down range yet Michael. It's still winter here for some reason!?

I was about to send a PM to Sam about a load that ZZZ posted in this thread BUT Jorge may have solved it already. I was thinking that the IMR4831 load was at 100% capacity with a 500 Hornady. I was considering swapping to ZZZ's load using RL15.
Jorge please give an update on your shooting this week end !!!

Hi guys, went to the range today. I just loaded four rounds, two each with 97 and 98 gr of H-4831 respectively. That is the same load I use with my DGX loads. While I achieved passable hunting accuracy, (4"@ 50) that's over twice what I am getting with DGXs and Woodleighs. Bullet hole geometry was almost identical to what I get with the aforementioned bullets so that is a good indicator in my view. I just need to figure out a way to bump up the speed but like I mentioned before, I'm running out of case capacity and I do not want to change powders (H-4831). I can cheat a bit I suppose by seating them out farther, but I am loathe to run into pressure issues with the bullets too close to the lands. Too bad there isn't anybody that has experimented with the 450NE and the CEBs so I could use that as a starting point. I think I can get away with 99-101 gr and still seat to factory OAL. jorge

Jorge,
PM sent
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 450NE:
Jorge,
PM sent
Mike

It's about time you showed up!

Where in the hell have you been? Heard nothing from you in way too long!

M

OK guys I just loaded some more, bumping up the charge to 99 & 100 grains respectively. I also expended the OAL to 3.995 and just for reference, the Woodleighs are loaded to 3.995. Still plenty of room. I won't get to shoot until the weekend, so I'll report then. jorge