quote:

Originally posted by Jungleboy:
Michael,
Did you ever get enough interest to do a run on .468 bullets? If so, I would
be quite interested, Thanks, Jim

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Jungleboy:
Michael,
Did you ever get enough interest to do a run on .468 bullets? If so, I would
be quite interested, Thanks, Jim

Jim

No man, never have got to .468, but not for lack of interest, but for me personally lacking anything to shoot them in. As I recall Don was trying to get some of you 465 guys together to have a run of 15 boxes done, but he never got any interest built up.

If interested start a new thread here, see if you can churn any interest up and we will get a run done!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I don't need a double rifle bullet of the future, I use the double out of pure nostalgia and it needs a RN woodleigh soft and solid. I gave in to the North Fork cup point, but even that good bullet turned me off and was regulated to my bolt guns..

I am not interested in modern society and in new inventions when I am in the high grass of Tanzania. I am there to escape this shit,..

I would prefer they used those bullets in the long range rifle camps where they have given up all hunting skills and shoot the legs of animals at up to 3000 yards, you never see that on TV...Oooops now I'm in trouble!

quote:

Atkinson:
I don't need a double rifle bullet of the future, I use the double out of pure nostalgia and it needs a RN woodleigh soft and solid

quote:

Shoot what you want and have fun tracking.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:


Woodleigh makes a damn fine expanding bullet.

quote:

In part, it went "you should deliberate with open minds, freely exchange views and opinions concerning the case, give respectful consideration to the opinions of your fellow jurors and not be afraid to change your mind when reason and logic so dictate." Food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Lane and Dave, not sure exactly what Atkinsons problem is with me, I have actually never had a conversation with him? But, don't matter it is what it is. I expect I will be just as cantankerous one of these days myself, or at least I plan on it! HEH HEH.................

No problems boys, no worries! It will sort out in the end!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well now, that got your attention eh? The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future! Sorta catchy I think!

HI all, those of you that don't know me, I am just Michael, I stay upstairs for the most part in the big bore forum, but I have something that is so very important, or at least I think it is, I simply must share it with you, as it pertains more to you than it does even to me. I am a bullet nut, and love solid bullets. I started the Terminal Performance Thread upstairs from you last November.

So what do I have for you, and what in the hell am I talking about, the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future?

Well here is the story! My good friend and buddy, SRose, you boys see him here from time to time. We have been working hard for many months testing new nose profiles for solids to see what we could come up with. Sam does the bullet making, I do the testing! Some time ago I handed him a sample of a bullet, and asked if he could come up with something. Well he did, several variations of the nose profile, and just so happens we hit on one, we call it the BBW #13, as it has a 13 degree nose angle! Penetration is extreme with this bullet, it's dead straight line penetration, and it seems to go across to any caliber we have tested and worked with, and that has been fairly extensive. Please, if you want to know more, got up to the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, they are posted there. Currently we are working on these bullets with Cutting Edge Bullets, new to the dangerous game bullet market. All CNC bullets, copper or brass of course. I have placed orders now for this bullet in my own .500 caliber rifles, and in addition to that .510 caliber, 474 caliber, .458 caliber, 416 caliber, to work thru my bolt guns and my own cartridges the B&M Series.

Now Sam is our double rifle fan, and expert as far as I am concerned. Sam owns a lot of double rifles, I don't know how many, I have seen a dozen different ones so far, and I am quite sure I have not seen them all! Sam wanted this BBW #13 for his double rifles too. It's performance enhances the capabilities of any and all cartridges you can put it in! But our concern was shooting monos that are ill designed in the double rifles, splitting the barrels apart and so forth, and whatever damage you can do to one. I am not a double expert, but understand the concept. Sam came up with several band designs that we have been trying and working with in his doubles. We sent prototypes to Cutting Edge Bullets, from here out known as CEB! And we received a couple of weeks ago a run of prototypes in copper, with a 2 band design.

Here are some of these samples we tested.





What is so impressive about these bullets is the consistent straight line penetration. Now it was Sam's contention that the two band design had to put less stress on the barrels than normal fmj bullets, or even multi band bullets. This obviously made good common sense to me too. Here is a comparison of a 3 band version.



Obviously as you can see, much less bearing surface, has to cause less stress. Or one would think so anyway.

I run a Pressure Trace system when I need to test pressures of any of my cartridges, and loads. Sam saw this one day, and decided we should hook the system up to a double rifle, a strain gage in the rear to measure actual pressures, and a strain gage on the barrel to make an attempt at measuring the stress put on the barrel at the point of where the strain gage is attached. With some thought on that matter, I could see no downside to at least make the effort to see what we could learn. I could not find a reason that it would not work, since that is what a strain gage does, it measures the amount of barrel stretch either by pressure, or the passage of a bullet down the bore!

The Pressure Trace had been very reliable for me on all matters in the past, and I have tested it against factory ammo, and my own case measurements and observations, so as long as the gage is attached properly, and the connections are good, then it is a viable tool that one can use to measure pressures. It may not be exact, but it has always correlated will with all other factors, including factory ammo tests.

So last week we attached the strain gages to one of Sam's 470 Nitro Double rifles, one in the rear for pressure readings, and one 5 inches from the muzzle to see if we could get a reading as the bullet passed that point on the barrel. Sam did all the loading and used the same load throughout the test, 106 grs of IMR 4831, Federal 215 Primers, New 470 Nitro brass, to keep things as consistent as possible. Sam did have some old, original Kyoch loads with Cordite that we tested in addition to the other loads. We tested the 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ and Soft Point, 500 gr Barnes Banded, 500 gr Hornady DGS, old orginal 500 gr Barnes Copper Tube bullets, a 466 gr Brass BBW #13, and a 500 gr Copper BBW#13 by CEB.

Since we did not know what the results might be we decided to test only 2 rounds for pressure, and two rounds for barrel strain. Extra rounds were loaded in case there were any foul ups, anomalies, or any questions. The only problem we had during the test, on one of the loads I had the wrong setting on the computer, and we had to use a 3rd round. Other than that, there were no anomalies or other strange happenings. Everything correlated down the line with pressure readings, barrel strain, and velocity readings, so there is a high amount of confidence in the test work, and I am very sure it can be repeated, and we already have a plan in place to do more test work, and repeatable test work.

Now, before I go further, I am very excited about this, and get carried away with it sometimes, so my apology.

I have to explain something to you--I have nothing to sell you, I am not trying to sell you anything, I am nor is Sam, in the bullet making business, I am not part of any bullet manufacturing company, and I am not looking to be, I have a job, and I don't want another one. I don't even own a double rifle, and I never have, and I probably never will, it's just not my thing. So I have time and money invested in this project, not for myself, but for you! I do love bullets, and only good ones! I shoot a lot, test a lot, and love to do it! All my stuff is primarily big bore, I dabble some in 9.3 caliber, but that is about it, the rest of my total interest is larger bore rifles. So I am not here for myself, nothing to sell you, and I could care less whether you like this, believe this, or not. It's for you, not for me, so do with it as you please, if it helps, great I will do everything I can to help you, if you don't like it, fine with me.

Something else too, I am not nor is Sam, claiming that this is 100% safe in your rifles, that's for you to decide based on the data I am getting ready to present you with. Sam says it's safe in his double rifles and that is what he is going to use, that's good enough for me, and the data speaks for itself. But if you go blow your crap up with one of these because you filled the case full of bullseye instead of IMR 4831, and then blame it on the bullet, well that's your problem, not mine, nor Sams, nor the maker of the bullet, no claims made, you make your own mind up on that.

I can tell you this, even though I have no double rifle, and don't want one, I was way more excited about this data as it came across the computer screen than any of you guys, I was dancing on the floor of the range yesterday!! Ask Sam, he was there!


My good friend Capoward has made an excellent spreadsheet that has all the data listed on it in easy order to read, I think he may post that after I do this post. In between, I am going to post the actual data reports for you to look at. I hope it's of some use to you and will assist you in future choices of bullets, but it's totally up to you to choose what you think is best, I can't tell you what is best for you. All I can tell you is what I would do, and that is all.

Please remember #1 Reports are for actual Pressure Data

#2 reports are for what I have been calling barrel strain, for lack of a better term.



Before Capo gets his spreadsheet up, I have it summary for you here;


1. 500 Woodleigh FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44899 PSI--Velocity 2110 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--23667


2. 500 Woodleigh Soft Point #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 36892 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--21903


3. 500 Barnes Banded Solid #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 46738 PSI--Velocity 2169 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22848


4. 500 Barnes Original Copper Tube Solid/FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 43214 PSI--Velocity 2126 fps
#2 Barrel Strain--21525


5. 500 Hornady DGS #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44147 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22533


6. 500 Kynoch Original Cordite Load #1 Pressure---45909 PSI--Velocity 2084 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--18250


7. 466 Brass BBW #13 #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 39172 PSI--Velocity 2141 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--20013


8. 500 Copper BBW #13 CEB #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 30029 PSI--Velocity 2142 FPS

#2 Barrel Strain--20265


Over the next few minutes I will be posted all the actual reports for you to look at.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd,

If I may jump in? As I said before the tests are to show what bullets may be SAFER in doubles. I am not saying other bullets are UNSAFE but in my opinon there are very few solid or mono bullets I will shoot in my doubles.

OH and if someone has a few TSX 470s I'm sure Michael and I can shoot them through my 470 for conparison. The barrel strain gage was damaged on my double but we could put another on it.



Sam

quote:

I think I will begin working up loads in both the solid and non-con now for my 500NE.

quote:

If I have offended anyone, and especially Micahael by using the word bullet pimp then I must apologize it was my approach to humor, Apparantly some are more thin skinned than I realized so again I am sorry..I have referred to myself as a gun pimp on ocassions.

quote:

I was in Kansas the week you were running the barrel strain tests, trying to poke a hole in a monster Whitetail