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The 458 seems to have shut that moose down pretty well. Even with such a soft bullet.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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Thanks to all for The Mission Support.
Well on the way to page 60. beer

Dirty Harry Meets Bigfoot Harry:
Elmer Keith said the Remington factory loads (510gr soft and 500gr FMJ) shot to same POI as the Winchester factory loads, back in 1968.
Ought to be adequate for bigfoot if adequate for big bears. Wink

That 1983 piece by Meehan and Thilenius was pre-revival of the .416, though both George Hoffman and Robert Chatfield-Taylor were both at it by then.
Of course, James Watts claimed that Taylor got the .416 Taylor idea from his earlier .416 Watts Short, just like Remington later turned the .416 Hoffman into the .416 Rem.
A modern ranking would certainly have to include at least the .416 Remington and .416 Ruger.
But the .458 Win. would still be the winner if any such study were scientific in the least.
Objective more than subjective anyway.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
A modern ranking would certainly have to include at least the .416 Remington and .416 Ruger.
But the .458 Win. would still be the winner if any such study were scientific in the least.
Objective more than subjective anyway.


I grant that the 458 Win with the 400 gn GSC is a tad more gun than the 416 Ruger with the 330GSC. But the 416 Ruger with a 330gn GSC would be a pretty awesome tool in most situations, and adequate for any buffalo or bear.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4251 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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I really like the stock on your rifle 4sixteen. Good shooting also !


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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4sixteen,

Always gratifying to see some good shootin' with a .458 Win.
Excellent accuracy with the stubby 350-grainers.
With proper powder charge and MV for that rifle and bullet, you have found the node.

That is an interesting 200 meter target. Is that a 5-centimeter grid?



tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I had that brochure from A-Square also.
In point of fact , the 465 gr Dead Tough expanding bullet was a very good load. And the 465 gr Monolithic Solid factory ammo was a good penetrator. Maybe not as good as the modern flat nose solids. But still a good bullet.
A lot of the advertising from A-Sq was just that. Advertising. Still , it got me to buy a Hannible in 500 A-2.
Wish I had put a muzzle brake on that rifle. I would still have it if I would have.
Tho the Coil Check stock worked well. After I got clobbered by trees a couple times. Got my bottom lip tore almost completely off , took a couple semi spectacular falls . I in no way could handle recoil like I could before those injuries.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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4sixteen,

Thanks for the A-Square pamphlet blurb, commercially colored as it is.
Their reloading manual shows the 465-grain "Lion Load" softpoint (BAD BULLET!) from a 1:10" twist, 26" long barrel.
75.0 grains of IMR-3031 was the top-velocity load: 2256 fps

I reviewed my results in shooting their 465-grain Monolithic Solid (brass roundnose) in 2 rifles;

1. Chimera WinCzechster with 1:14" twist, 24-7/8" long barrel: MV = 2167 fps
(I typo-ed that previously as 2157 fps MV, but it was actually 2156 fps at 5 yards, 2167 fps corrected to MV, for BC = 0.327)

2. Woodelle Whitworth with 1:14" twist, 23-3/4" long barrel: MV = 2139 fps
(corrected from 2128 fps @ 5 yards)

The ammo seemed to be very accurate, but the brass was funny. Soft. Just another one of the straws that broke the A-Square Company camel's back.
That ammo was about 20 years old when fired, at 76*F.

For comparison to some 40-year-old Winchester factory ammo in Chimera WinCzechster (24-7/8" barrel), also at 76*F, same day:

510-grain RNSP (BC = 0.287): 2023 fps MV
(corrected from 2010 fps @ 5 yards)

FWIW. The .458 Win. never had any problems except factory ammo problems, and South African powder problems.
Hornady finally learned how to load their 500-grainers reliably to about 2140 fps MV from a 24" barrel,
though their powder might be temperature sensitive.
I estimate their 2140 fps to be at 70*F.

About 70.5 grains of Hodgdon BENCHMARK will equal their ammo and be less temperature sensitive, or just use 71.0 grains and beat their load.
Or, use more AA-2230 and beat it by a lot more.
Both those powders seem to have good TBI potential in many cartridges.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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2014 (C) date on the website for A-Square rifles by Broadsword.
Are they still in business?

There Art goes again, badmouthing the .458 Win. when he should know better. Just ignorant, or purely commercial agenda driven.

Funny how his reloading manual section on the .458 Win. was written by Saint Aagaard himself.
I'll go dig it up and post that as counter-propaganda. Wink

Also funny how Art Alphin claimed to have designed the same cartridge that John Buhmiller did 2 decades earlier.
That's why when I built a couple of .500 A-Squares in the late 1990s I called mine ".510/460 Weatherby Improved Jenkins and Berry" aka the ".510 JAB."

Art also designed the .470 Capstick, right?
No, there was the near identical .475 OKH about 4 decades before.

Art is right, about one thing. Prone with a .500 A2 is not recommended.
But I found it quite nice from a sitting position with a tall bipod.

Finn Aagaard: "...there is still nothing I would rather have in my sweaty paws,
in a hairy situation with dangerous game,
than my Winchester M-70 or my old Westley Richards in .458 Winchester Magnum."

Maybe he would have liked Alderella Shilen-Ruger too ...
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Waiting for her turn in the hot tub at the spa, Ms. Alderella Shilen-Ruger:



 
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The 6x48 original mounting screws on this Wisner African rear sight have been replaced with 8x40 screws:



 
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This front sight is going to be really nice when the folding hood and beads are installed, fashion accessories for Alderella:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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And the thread protector diameter matches the muzzle diameter, for a KDF brake, for prone shooting.



What? Still on page 59 of this thread?
Less than 400 pages to go.
tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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A .458 Win. comes into the world and another passes away, reincarnated as a .458 WinRuger:



It's gonna be tight in the box for three down with the .458/.416 Ruger Winchester-Throated.
Maybe a thinner follower will do it.
Only 0.1" or less of additional depth is needed.
A pocket floorplate certainly could be more than enough.
Windowing of the Mauser integral box hopefully will not be necessary.
She is CRF-plus-PF, feeds well. Maybe a 2+1 three-shooter at first, hoping to become a 3+1 four-shooter soon.
Just a re-chamber, replacement trigger & safety (Timney), and hiding of some steel allthread and epoxy bedding.
Overall external appearance will not change but for this:
Barrel stamping will just add the "RUGER"
above the factory-stamped "Cal. 458 Win"

The case body will be done with the .395 Ruger Max with removable pilot, uses .375 Ruger headspace gauges.
Neck will be lengthened by 0.080" with the .458 Lott reamer.
Current .458 Win. throat should not be touched beyond the 0.080" of new neck.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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About 1971or 1972 I had my first of two M70 458s that were the Push Feed SuperGrade. Slickest action I ever felt and very large sharp checkering, definitely for grip not looks Big Grin 22" barrels

Across the Ohler 10 the Winchester 500 grain FMJ did 1960 f/s. Winchester 375 270 grain Power Points did 2640 f/s and the 300 grain Silvertip did 2450 f/s. Those 375s were loaded with non canistered 4064, 68 grains for the 300 grain and 71 grains for the 270 grains.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Mike,

Thanks for the contribution.
Was the "African" M70 rear sight still present in 1971-1972?
Do you reckon Winchester ammo was using Win-748 ball powder in the ammo?

When Hornady was loading the old "Heavy Magnum" loads to 2260 fps claimed with 500-grainer, they were using Winchester-made brass.
Since then Hornady learned to make their own brass, and it is near identical to the old Winchester brass. Faithful copy.
I consider Hornady and Winchester brass to be interchangeable for all practical purposes.

I now consider the HORNADY HANDBOOK OF CARTRIDGE RELOADING TENTH EDITION to be as good as it gets for load data.
Compare the generic SAAMI-chambered .458 Win to theirs:
barrel length 24" and 1:14" twist (stated)
groove diam. in the .458"-.459" ballpark (assumed)
temperature 70*F (assumed)
powder lot not too variable (hopefully)
Winchester WLRM primer
Winchester brass case
COL 3.310"
with both Hornady 500-gr DGS and DGX bullets (must be some kind of averages of the two):

Win 748
74.0 gr >>> 1950 fps (minimum)
81.4 gr >>> 2150 fps (maximum)
The Winchester factory ammo that Mike shot circa 1971 was on the bottom end of that.

H335
67.5 gr >>> 1950 fps (minimum)
76.3 gr >>> 2150 fps (maximum)
Hornady said that H335 was best in accuracy with 500-grain bullets.

IMR 3031
64.1 gr >>> 1950 fps (minimum)
70.1 gr >>> 2100 fps (maximum)
This old standard was a bit disappointing. But powder lots can change over time ...
I consider Hodgdon BENCHMARK to be the new benchmark powder for the old traditional 450 NE ballistics in the .458 Win.
Use same charge weights as for IMR 3031 and see what you get: Better.

H4895
66.5 gr >>> 1950 fps
75.7 gr >>> 2150 fps
Another great Hodgdon Extreme powder, like BENCHMARK, has excellent TBI (thermoballistic independence).

Accurate 2230
71.5 gr >>> 1950 fps (minimum)
78.3 gr >>> 2200 fps (maximum)
That is the top velocity load per Hornady with 500-grainers.
I consider it to be the new benchmark for any 400-500 grainer in the .458 Win. hotrod.
It is a ball powder that avoids compression and has excellent TBI also. Wow!

All of the above 500-grain loads are at or below 60,000 psi MAP per SAAMI, though we can easily exceed these by going up to the 62,500 .458 Lott MAP.
All of the above 500-grain loads are at COL = 3.310", though we can exceed that also.
Either single-shot loaded with a short magazine box, or use a long magazine box.
The .458 Win. throat allows wonders to happen.

Hornady said of their test rifle, used to produce the above data:
"Our test rifle was exceptionally accurate."
It was identified as: "Ruger 77"

BTW, Hornady manual top-velocity load with the .458 Lott in a "Wiseman Custom" 24", 1:10" twist (twist difference is inconsequential here)
Hornady brass case
Winchester WLRM primer
COL 3.585"
500-grain DGS and DGX bullets:
Win 748
72.9 gr >>> 1900 fps
86.8 gr >>> 2250 fps
Just keeping at less than or equal to 62,500 psi MAP.

So, the .458 Win. did 2200 fps with AA-2230 at </= 60,000 psi MAP, at 3.310" COL.
Lower pressure, less recoil, shorter magazine stroke and only 50 fps less MV.
The shooter can tell the difference, even if the game cannot.
Finn Aagaard:
"... there is still nothing I would rather have in my sweaty paws, in a hairy situation with dangerous game, than my ... .458 Winchester Magnum."
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Mike,

Thanks for the contribution.
Was the "African" M70 rear sight still present in 1971-1972?
Do you reckon Winchester ammo was using Win-748 ball powder in the ammo?



The sight was a very wide V and without elevation adjustment.

I never pulled a factory load apart but I did use some 748 with 500 grain bullets. However, I switched to a local stick powder that had a burn rate like 3031. From memory it was the powder for Australian 7.62 with the 144 grain boat tail. 70 grains gave 2070 with the 500 grain Hornady and just over 2100 with 400 grainers.

I swapped stopped using 748 because no good for reduced loads and 3031 like burn rate powder was also excellent in the 375. In fact that burn rate will probably get you the closest to original 375 ballistics and not much more weight of powder than the cordite. 65 grain with 300 grainers nd 68 grains with 270 grainer for 2450 and 2620.

Maybe I did pull a factory round apart or perhaps I read something that made me get the 748 in the first place.

One interesting thing on those M70s. One day I had an electrician come to my house and I also had a Mark V 460 (ordered over the phone with Roy himself, actually a pair of them as one for a mate as well) and both rifles were on the lounge room floor. He was not a shooter and he said 'that rifle" which was the M70 looks like it was the one meant for business. Smiler

As a side note Roy was great to deal and seem to have a keen interest in his rifles being sold overseas. The rifle still had to come through the importer. Till this day Wby is still regarded as the prize agency for a gun or gun related stuff importer and because of dealing with them beats all other companies. They won't sell direct or have another agent etc.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
https://huntforever.org/2016/0...=DangerousGameSafari

That 45-70 with 400-grain North Fork FP with BBW#13 nose profile was adequate:



Velocity was probably about 1900 fps MV:

"The next day we saw quite a few buffalo, but no mature bulls, then as luck would have it we came upon fresh buffalo tracks that were crisscrossing the road. We eventually spotted a small herd with a nice mature bull and Sam, Andrew and the tracker made a stalk while I followed behind. They went 50 to 60 yards before Andrew positioned the shooting sticks for Sam’s Marlin Model 1895 chambered in .45-70. He was shooting 400-gr. BBW No. 13 solids developed by Michael McCourry and produced by North Fork Technologies. Sam made a perfect heart shot and the mortally wounded buffalo ran about 30 yards and rolled head over heels. The buffalo appeared to be quite dead, but as experienced dangerous game hunters know, what appears to be is not always what actually is. No one had bothered to tell the buffalo that he was dead and, as it started to get up, Sam anchored him with another 400-gr. solid. One buffalo in the salt."

That buffalo would have died quicker if it had been a .458 Win. with 450-grain North Fork FP/CP/SP at 2350 fps MV.
And even more surely with a 400-grain GSC HV at 2500 fps.
tu2
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Kind of makes me want to shoot a Buffalo with a 45/70!
 
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So I guess huge thumbnail on Imgur is as big as I can get it for the site; unless anyone has instructions on how to get it different. What's showing is a Win M70 from about 1995, that came in 458, was rebarrelled by CP Donnelly to 458 but with 2 more inches and significant weight added to the barrel. The scope is a Zeiss Diatal 1.5, post reticle. It does shoot very well.
 
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Same 458 but original barrel also shown.
 
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Or not.

All for the mission.
 
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Ray B,

Way to go, onward to page 60, making the most of it toward page 458 and beyond. beer
Well and good. Your rifle is a Super Super Grade, eh?
It is a prime candidate for knocking the spacer out of the back of the box and adjusting the MassiveFixed Ejector-Boltstop to make it feed and eject 3.6" COL through the magazine.
I will get around to doing that to my factory Winchester .458 Win.



after I get through birthing Alderella Ruger and reincarnating Woodelle Whitworth.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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4sixteen,

You are doing great work too. With a handle like yours, this is amazing. Maybe you should change that to 4fiveEight. Wink

I heard of a couple of buddies who both went to Alaska with their .338 Win. BAR rifles for a bear hunt.
In the freezing conditions, both of their rifles became nonfunctional.
They each had to use the guide's rifle to shoot their bears.
I am forgetting about that .458 Win. BLR too.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Speaking of 4sixteens, R. F. Chatfield-Taylor said this in the April 1962 GUNS magazine article "AN AFRICAN BATTERY"
about a decade before the first .416 Taylor wildcatting
(yes, wildcatting is insanity, but it makes the world go round):

"Never underestimate the .458 Winchester.
A gigantic amount of thought, money and
research went into this load. The boys at
New Haven deided to produce the world's
finest big game rifle -- or should I say biggest game rifle?
They acknowledged the unquestioned
efficiency of the .450 to .476 family of
British calibers, which produce from 4900 ft.lbs.
of muzzle energy to about 5100 ft.lbs.,
with bullets ranging from 480 to 520 grains ...

"Accidentally or on purpose, they produced
one of the world's most accurate large bores.
I have had more three-shot, 100 yard groups which went under an inch than over.
It is a tack-driver to any citizen who does not mind the quite substantial recoil.

"In any case, no one can go wrong with a .458 as a biggest game rifle."


I think he did the .416 Taylor just to obsessive-compulsively fill the gap between his .375 Belted Newton (a straight-out .375/.338 Win.Mag.) and the .458 Win.,
so he could finally name a cartridge for himself.
The first .416 Taylor rifle was born in 1973.
Rip ...
 
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“Why? Why not? Who wouldn’t want a 10-shot semiauto .458 Win. Mag?” I asked. “Hell, man, every red-blooded Texan would buy at least two—one for his pickup and one for his wife’s SUV.”
rotflmo
Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.co...n-458/#ixzz5KaYWcWww

They are claiming 2090 fps with 500-grain Federal Fusion ammo in an 18.5" barrel?
https://www.federalpremium.com...0Winchester%20Magnum
0 results for ".458 Winchester Magnum" Confused
Maybe Federal will bring back the ammo when they hear about this thread. animal

tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 4sixteen:
.416 Taylor information from the old A-Square brochure.



Just when I was starting to settle down you post this up.
I really like the 416 Taylor. It works well in short barrels and can make a very nice little general purpose rifle.
About 2300 fps was what I got with 400 gr bullets in my 19" barreled Taylor. And almost the same with the 18" barreled one I had built.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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Seems a little redundant nowadays to build a Taylor when the 416 Ruger Guide Gun is available. Maybe Ill have to follow in Alf's foot steps and get a 416 Ruger GG. ???


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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RIP

I'm not sure what the various Super grades are, this is a Super Express.

 
Posts: 1421 | Location: WA St, USA | Registered: 28 August 2016Reply With Quote
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There is a spacer that I could remove

 
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But as the caliper shows, I'd have to have the leade extended - the cartridge as measured, fits tightly against the rifling. The rifle was barreled by CP Donnelly and since his passing I have been unable to build a relationship with a gunsmith that I've had trust enough for such a project.
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: WA St, USA | Registered: 28 August 2016Reply With Quote
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I wonder how well Norma's 458 Win ammo is put together. ??


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Ray B:
But as the caliper shows, I'd have to have the leade extended - the cartridge as measured, fits tightly against the rifling. The rifle was barreled by CP Donnelly and since his passing I have been unable to build a relationship with a gunsmith that I've had trust enough for such a project.


try 330 GSC or 350gn TTSX -- they may allow some forward seating


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4251 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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CTF,

Yep, with your proclivity for short barrels, you better go with the .416 Ruger.

For the .416 Taylor to do what the .416 Ruger does, it needs all of 2 or 3 inches more barrel, call it 2.5".

So, a 22.5" .416 Taylor about equals a 20" .416 Ruger.
Knowhuttahmean?

My .416 Taylor has a 26" barrel, so it easily beats a 20"-barreled .416 Ruger with Hornady factory ammo.
My .416 Taylor handloads go 2431 fps MV with 400-grain Hornady RNSP.

The longer barrel will make the rifle a better walking staff for old age hill climbing.

It is always good to have a .416 Taylor for old age, or a .416 Ruger,
for when one can no longer handle a .458 Win. as well as he used to.
tu2
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:


It is always good to have a .416 Taylor for old age, or a .416 Ruger,
for when one can no longer handle a .458 Win. as well as he used to.
tu2
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I thought that was the purpose of the 404 Jeffery.
 
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Ray B,

OK, so you have a Super Super Express. tu2
And it must have a custom chambering of that custom barrel, short throated.
Any gunsmith worth his salt can extend the throat to SAAMI spec, just short of getting into belt recess with the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. reamer.

As it is, the rifle chambering is a ".458 Winchester Special" like Gil Sengel did purposefully for cast bullet and lighter jacketed bullet shooting.
Pressures with .458 Win. standard ammo will be higher.
Do you have any handload or factory ammo chronograph data?
I bet the rifle is fast for grains of powder burned, within pressure limits, due to 26" barrel and short throat.
tu2
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4sixteen,

Thanks for that link and pasting to the thread.
That is a pretty good summary, limited as it is,
but coming to a good conclusion.
But why can I not find the .458 Win. ammo at their website? Confused

"Soft points – like the Woodleigh Weldcore – are a good choice for thinner skinned beasts, but a good solid (non-expanding) bullet is required for elephant, and a good idea for backup shots on buffalo. Norma offers a 500-grian non-expanding bullet in their Solid line at 2,100 fps. This is perfect for a Professional Hunter who needs to have guaranteed penetration when the shots are measured in feet instead of yards, as well as for clients who are serious about elephant and buffalo hunting."

tu2
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