That one is going to need something to block the bullets from battering the stock wood

Here is a close up on how nice Jeffery solved that problem on the 404

Anyone know where I can send my 25 Pounds?

458Win

Love the Grandpaw's Jeffery poem. Thanks for sharing.

We took the Heym Martini in 404 to Mozambique last September,
A wonderful rifle in a superb caliber,it accounted for Reedbok, Bush Pig, Wart Hog, Eland and Buffalo.
It was easy to shoot, accurate and elegantly styled by Ralf.

Have owned and hunted with other 404's- This one added some "new history" for me.

Everyone agrees, crimp on the cannelure.
There is not much room to do anything else.
No need to seat out.
I am going to check the 404 Jeffery History thread to make sure these drawings are posted there.

Here is the CIP throat:



CIP shows an odd groove and bore diameter (.418" and .412") that does not match the .422" bullet diameter they show.

Dave Manson reamer throat is same as CIP but it it works in the usual bullet and barrel specs accepted as modern now: .423" bullet diameter and groove diameters of .423" to .425".
Note Manson quotes the bore diameter of a Krieger barrel, for piloting purposes.
Krieger groove diameter is .424".



Review:

Barrel groove diameters:

.423" groove: Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther
.424" groove: Krieger
.425" groove: McGowen

I am finally feeling spry enough to have made that .404 J/9.3x70mm switch barrel I have long dreamed of. Only question is, "Winchester or Mauser". As dilemmas go, this is a nice one.

This thread has answered so many questions that I used to have.

Many thanks elder brother RIP.

L/D

Bro'Dart,

M98 Mauser if you are a hopeless nostalgic, and want to spend more money on bottom metal. Best from Duane Wiebe.

M70 Winchester with windowed RUM sheetmetal box, flat spring and RUM follower, easy 3 + 1 capacity.
Parts from Brownells or make your own from a standard M70 .375 H&H box or Duane Wiebe XRM box.

The CZ 550 Magnum .375 H&H ribbed box is "Mauser Co-sine Law" perfect to get 5 down in the box, and easy to feed.

Decisions, decisions ...

Update from the other thread of some starting loads, and one finishing load, for the "loose" McGowen barrels of 1:10" twist: (Just compiling miscellanea.)

****************************************************************************************************************************

Ray gets high velocities/pressures with IMR4831 in a tight barrel of .423" groove and traditional twist, I reckon.

I have to use RL-15 or Varget to get pressure and velocity up in my McGowen barrels with 1:10" twist. They slugged at 0.4245" groove, nominal .425".

Tighter barrels will give higher pressures and velocities.
What I got with the McGowen 24" barrel starting loads,
400 grain Woodleigh RNSN (Weldcore), COL about 3.500" or whatever they are when crimped on the cannelure,
Norma brass, GM215 primer from Federal:

H4831SC 88.0 grains >>> 2162 fps
H4350 85.0 grains >>> 2276 fps
RL-15 72.0 grains >>> 2120 fps (your powder lot may be different)
Varget 72.0 grains >>> 2125 fps (85% load density estimated)

Worked upward to:
Varget 81.0 grains >>> 2401 fps (95.3% load density estimated)

My rifle was chambered with a Manson reamer.

Wow, great historical thread, guys.
Just wanted to thank Rip, Alf, von Gruff, et. al, for all the info and insights.

It will certainly help me to get the most enjoyment out of shooting & reloading for my .404J.



Thanks again!

Full custom from a CZ action, eh, Nick?
Beautiful and fully functional, AHR does great work.
What make is your barrel?

Thanks, RIP. The barrel is a McGowen.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:
Thanks, RIP. The barrel is a McGowen.

Then you have a good idea of some loads to use, same ones I use in my McGowen,
which I will not punish everyone with by repeating, again.
VARGET for everything from 340-grainers to 400-grain bullets.

RIP: was glad to see those loads you listed above that used Varget, as I have plenty of it stocked for several calibers already. But I assume the 340gn-400gn bullets you referred to are standard jacket bullets, such as the DGX Hornady makes, not cast.

I was also interested in knowing where to get cast boolits for my .404J. If you shoot cast in yours, are you also using Varget for them?

Again, great historical thread. Thanks.

Nick,

My loads have been mostly North Fork (380 & 340 grainers), and Woodleigh 400 grainers.
Some experimenting with GSC 320-grainers at +2800 fps also, using Varget.

I have not shot cast lead bullets in 404 Jeffery, but have had great results in .395-caliber wildcat cartridges:
.395 H&H, 400/.395 NE 3", and .395 Tatanka.

Similar should work great in the 404 Jeffery with the right cast bullet, about 400 grains,
and I would suggest up to 2200 fps there.

My bullets were .396-caliber/410-grain (LBT mold) LFN, gas-checked, Lyman No. 2 alloy, LBT Blue Lube. 2200 fps was quite satisfactory.

Varget with filler for loads less than 85% fill would be perfect in the 404 Jeffery, surely.
If there is any air space in the load, nowadays, I use a bit of filler to eliminate the powder shake.

Sizing down the common jacketed or cast lead .429-diameter pistol bullets to 404 Jeffery size would also be great for practice/plinking.
Another exercise on my wish list too ...

Nick,

You need to try your 404 Jeffery for speed against Todd Williams with his double rifle,
but make it a six-shot test not just four.
You'll likely be ahead of him at four shots, and really finish strong at six, way ahead.
I bet that even his friend could not jam your rifle in the competition.
Your rifle feeds and functions perfectly, eh?

In the historical line up in the development of cartridges in various calibers there have been what can be seen as cartridges that sit "in the sweet spot" of overall "shootability".

They are numerous , in my book there is the old 222, the 7x57 and off course the 404 Jeffery.

They share a commonality in enough bang to do the job with above average accuracy for little expense in the form of recoil and muzzle blast.
A 404 loaded to original specs is never brash or sharp on the shoulder.

The 404 is singularly unique in the world of big bores in that is very mild mannered, way more so than say a 416 Rigby or even the 425 WR. It is this above all that endeared the rile to so many old hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Nick,
***
Your rifle feeds and functions perfectly, eh?

So far, yes. Hate to have it not, especially when standing not all that far from a 'Buff, which is what I've envisioned shooting it at, if I ever get over to Africa.

The jamming/feeding issues I'd read about with stock, just-out-of-the-box CZ 550s in .404J were something I discussed with Wayne @ AHR. The CZ actions on his 550 DGRs are worked over to eliminate this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
In the historical line up in the development of cartridges in various calibers there have been what can be seen as cartridges that sit "in the sweet spot" of overall "shootability".

They are numerous , in my book there is the old 222, the 7x57 and off course the 404 Jeffery.

They share a commonality in enough bang to do the job with above average accuracy for little expense in the form of recoil and muzzle blast.
A 404 loaded to original specs is never brash or sharp on the shoulder.

The 404 is singularly unique in the world of big bores in that is very mild mannered, way more so than say a 416 Rigby or even the 425 WR. It is this above all that endeared the rile to so many old hunters.

Great point, and having shot various calibers of rifles for over 30 years I agree. I would add that the "sweet spot" in cartridge selection might vary somewhat from shooter-to-shooter.

Regarding the .404J, I already own, shoot, and reload for both a 300H&H (Ruger #1) and a .375H&H (Lon Paul-customized BRNO 602), but wanted to get a rifle chambered for one of the traditional African ".400-level" cartridges. I did quite a bit of reading & research on the various 416s, 458s, etc., (& Weatherbys too), but kept coming back to the .404J for the reason you stated - its relative "shootability" for a big bore while still delivering on the game-killing end.

Perhaps the biggest influences on my decision were the historical fact that the .404J was so used widely by game-management people throughout African on very dangerous game for culling and/or predator control, which implies it was both shootable for the average guy carrying it afield as well as effective on the big animals, and Gregor Woods' book, "Rifles for Africa." A great book, if you haven't read it. Liked it better than the comparable safari-rifle stuff from Boddington.

Over a couple of the chapters, Woods conveys his experience with American hunters and their somewhat romantic penchant for the heavy-recoiling 400-magnums. He makes the point that very few hunters can shoot these rifles well and they would do much better using a lower-recoiling rifle which they can shoot competently, and he cited the .404J as being a milder example compared, say, to the 416s/458s/460Ws.

For me anyway, recoil-tolerance and shootability tops out with the .404J, although Hornady's factory 400gn load pushes the DGX bullet approx 200fps faster (2300fps) than the original Jeffery load, treading closer to 416 levels. I can handle a magazine full of the Hornadys, but do want to try the same bullet loaded to the original 2150fps spec.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:
Perhaps the biggest influences on my decision were the historical fact that the .404J was so used widely by game-management people throughout African on very dangerous game for culling and/or predator control, which implies it was both shootable for the average guy carrying it afield as well as effective on the big animals, and Gregor Woods' book, "Rifles for Africa." A great book, if you haven't read it. Liked it better than the comparable safari-rifle stuff from Boddington.

Nick,

Alf probably proofread that book for Gregor Woods, fellow Boer Trekkers and riflecranks that they are.
Gregor probably bumped into Alf while growing up "roaming the South African veld with gun and rifle," and their dogs, independently and coincidentally named "Jock."
(See back flap of book jacket.)

I know Alf has one of the greatest shooting libraries around, since I swapped him a copy of the Duncan MacPherson book, "BULLET PENETRATION,"
for his library copies of Prof. Lloyd Brownell's "CHAMBER PRESSURES" papers, thanks, Dr. Alf.

Sweet spot shootability? You betcha!
That also includes the sweet spot for magazine repeater feeding, embodied in the 404 Jeffery cartridge dimensions, so perfectly designed.
It is totally impossible to make any better feeding, functioning, or killing rifle than a 404 Jeffery, out of a Magnum Mauser
(or same-sized, for all practical purposes, action like a CZ 550 Magnum, Ruger RSM, Dakota M76, Granite Mountain Magnum Mauser etc.).
The .416 Rigby, .505 Gibbs, and 500 Jeffery are all just whistling past the graveyard, as make-do feeders, if they are built on the same action
that is perfect for the 404 Jeffery.

While not as pretty as the AHR gun and some of the others--here are my two 404's

Top: Worked over M70LH done by Tip Burns with a 24 in LW barrel NECG sights, and a decent stick of walnut.

Bottom: Montana 1999 with a 23 in LW barrel Ceracoated in Coyote brown with a A-square style syn stock, and NECG peep and masterpiece front sight. Done by Ray Willimson.


imgupload

A also had a 404 in a Mauser M03..but let it go on down the road as someone else wanted it worse than I did...can only shoot one at a time...I love the 404!

Jeffery 404

With acknowledgement to Rege Podraza ( Where Elephants go to die )

It rested between the ivory
That hung on grandpa’s wall
It’s finish checked and yellowed
Like the tusks it helped to fall

It’s barrel smooth and polished
From a hundred bearers hands
It reflected the light warmly
Like campfires flickering bands

The stock of English walnut
Chewed and clawed a bit
It still showed a trace of checkering
And a dent where a horn had hit

Stamped on the barrel lightly
Was a name and not much more
A single word Jeffery
Jeffery 404

If that rifle could only talk
And take us back again
With grandpa in Africa
A time of buffalo, elephant and men


But that day has set it’s sun
And the rifle speaks no more
Oh what I’d give for one last time
To hear that baby roar

Grandpa's Jeffery
His Jeffery 404

Metal work- Tip Burns, Stock by John Valicek. Engraving by ScrollCutter!

Wow, all I can say is what a great treatise on the .404 Jeffery all of you guys have made of this thread - and w/ pics!

505ED: hey, buddy, don't sell yourself short on your .404s, especially that Winchester. They look superb to me.

Same w/ Rusty's, that's a great looking rifle. Excellent group too.

It is good to see hunters/members singing praise to this old warhorse calibre, the .404 Jeffery. Of all the calibres members discusses on rifle forums it is obvious a lot of rifle owners owning a lot of different rifles long for the chance to be a owner of a .404 Jeffery rifle. I am privileged to own a .404 Jeffery rifle with a history behind it. My .404 Jeffery being 80 years old shot the last elephant in the Thembe region when the "Ngana sickness) due to the tsetse flies were rife in this region in South Africa. The owner of the .404 Jeffery shot out /cull most of the dangerous game and especially shot the last elephant in that region. The rifle was re-barreld in 1976 since the old barrel was key-holing. I bought this rifle by sending one e-mail to John Coleman whom send a few e-mails to his friend ....one reply from a person with the name of Mike White whom told me he has a .404 Jeffery available surely made my day/year and whole life...

Today this rifle is used only for big bore shooting competitions one every month, I am already shooting this rifle very comfortable and very accurate, I recently started to re-load and is awaiting my .404 Jeffery mould (.423) to cast my own bullets to shoot from my .404 Jeffery. The mould is based on .404 Jeffery cast bullets I got from a good friend ,known as Von Gruff on this forum, a gentle man and extremely knowledgeable person. This is a working rifle , no bell and whistles , just a straight forward shooting and hunting rifle

Some photos :

quote:

This is a working rifle, no bells and whistles, just a straight forward shooting and hunting rifle.

Given its history, it's obviously a very *special* working rifle. Bells & whistle wouldn't make it better. And thanks for the pictures too!

I reposted the Von Gruff scans on page two of this thread, as they had vanished, now back:

".404 Jeffery -- The Full Monty" By Casey Lewis and Alf Smith
and
"Still More on the .404" Research by Col. Casey & Dr. Alf Smith, Text by Pierre vander Walt

There is now a sort of "history thread" on the 450/400 Nitro Express 3-Inch aka the .400 S Jeffery of 1898.
Go here, if you dare:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/8331048922

That, of course, was the rimmed/flanged, "Smokeless"/Cordite cartridge that the 404 Jeffery started out to duplicate for their rimless, magazine rifle.

J. W. Jeffery & Co. did pretty well with the 404 Jeffery of 1905, even though they did not make it the same caliber as the .400 S Jeffery of 1898.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I have learned to crop and auto-correct with a drag and a click of the mouse.
For better legibility:













































Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

Thanks for the update. An original .404 Jeffery has been at the top of my bucket list since you first started this thread, and remains there today.

Many thanks to all who contributed to this wonderful thread. This is my modest 404 Jeffery:



It started out as a M70 375 H&H. I sent it to Wayne at AHR and told him I wanted a 22" barrel slightly muzzle heavy and not too chubby, to fit the barrel
inletting for the Echols stock. What he installed is perfect, 0.740" muzzle diameter, slightly muzzle heavy, feels great, finished weight is 9lbs.

Installed an UM windowed mag box and UM follower. The RH rail fed fine with no work at all, the LH rail required some work to get it to work OK, it now retains and feeds rounds just fine.

83-85 grains of H4831SC gives 2100-2250 fps with various 380-400gr bullets. Fills the case nicely, modest recoil and superb accuracy. It's a warm fuzzy to have nice 404 Jeffery

RIP,
I think your orginal statement that the 404 was the bolt action version of the 450-3-1/4 is a misprint or brain fart..

It is, in fact, the bolt action version of the 450-400-3-1/4 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS give or take a couple of hundred FPS back then..

I will qualify this by unless "I have miss something over the years Ive championed this caliber"...

Hey I even remember some years back you chastised me over the 404, telling me the 416 could do anything the 404 could, not that you were wrong it just pissed me off!!

The legibility re-do on Pierre van der Walt's article that is based on the research of Casey Lewis and Alf Smith, for the BSA journal:






































Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
RIP,
I think your orginal statement that the 404 was the bolt action version of the 450-3-1/4 is a misprint or brain fart..

It is, in fact, the bolt action version of the 450-400-3-1/4 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS give or take a couple of hundred FPS back then..

I will qualify this by unless "I have miss something over the years Ive championed this caliber"...

Hey I even remember some years back you chastised me over the 404, telling me the 416 could do anything the 404 could, not that you were wrong it just pissed me off!!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Welcome serious scholars of the 404 Jeffery,
the first ever bolt action DGR fit to be called a DGR,
to a place to share the information and point out the misinformation about the 404 Jeffery.

I am overjoyed that the 1905 date has been pushed back to 1904.
The first of its kind,
the 404 Jeffery is to bolt actions what the 450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Thin Rim of 1898 is to double rifles.

Ray,
You have plenty of brain farts and once were of grasshopper status too, so long ago you cannot remember it, I am sure.

I have preserved the original quote on the first post of this thread, at which you take offense,
but accidentally deleted the rest due to trying to listen to somebody at home ("Yes, Dear") while I played with the 'puter.
Yes, another brain fart on my part.

Now I am going to have to go re-create the rest of that post and get back with you on the rest of this fun.

A point for you to consider is that in a hasty reading, "450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Thin Rim" (meaning the larger .45-bore) might be mis-interpreted as
"450/400 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Thin Rim" (meaning the smaller .40-bore)
due to another brain fart on your part, or even my part.

Put it still seems apparent that the 45-bore was the first single-shot and double-rifle Nitro Express loading by Mr. Rigby
that set off the competition that Mr. Jeffery soon won "hands down" in the bolt-action category.

Another sort of brain fart prevention strategy is this:
When speaking of the 450/400 NE 3-Inch "Thick Rim" it is much better to say ".400 S Jeffery."

Right now I have a "Honey-Do" list to attend to, though I am hopeful of resuming this fun shortly,
after I re-post the OP with any possible brain farts by me preserved, of course.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I have serviced The Queen, now for Ray, from one old fart to another ...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
RIP,
I think your orginal statement that the 404 was the bolt action version of the 450-3-1/4 is a misprint or brain fart..

Ray, this is FAKE NEWS you are creating here.
I did not say that at all.
I made a comparison, sort of like the IQ test you might have never had.
Like "A is to B as C is to D."
That is an analogy.

My statement:

"The first of its kind, the 404 Jeffery is to bolt actions what the 450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Thin Rim of 1898 is to double rifles."

The only thing I might change about that is to substitute "1897" instead of "1898." It is still accepted that the 450 NE 3-1/4" Thin Rim was the first full Nitro Express loading for double rifles (and single-shot rifles).
But since the first .400 S Jeffery rifle was delivered in 1897, we must assume that year, no later, for the 45-bore also.

450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Thin Rim = A
Double Rifles = B
404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express = C
Bolt-action Rifles = D

A is to B as C is to D.

Ray, do you get it now?
It refers to the first truly effective and well accepted DGR smokeless cartridges for for any game animal, DG or not.

Of course there is the .400 S Jeffery of 1897 also, close on the heels of the Rigby 45-bore,
but close counts better with hand grenades than historical accuracy.
Probably both were available to the public in the same year, 1898.
Sumbuddy who know different, please do tell.

The 404 Jeffery is, of course, a more direct descendant from the .400 S Jeffery (aka 450/400 Nitro Express 3-Inch Thick Rim).
But the .400 S Jeffery is a descendant of the 450 NE 3-1/4" Thin Rim (45-bore), by way of the 450/400 NE 3-1/4" Thin Rim (40-bore).

There, I spelled it all out for brain fart prevention, yours and mine.


It is, in fact, the bolt action version of the 450-400-3-1/4 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS give or take a couple of hundred FPS back then..

No, the 404 Jeffery is in fact, the bolt action version of the .400 S Jeffery, not the 3-1/4" fore-runner of that.

They turned the rim off and cut an extractor groove for use in the M98 action.
They also had to shorten it from 3.000" case of the .400 S Jeffery to 2.875" case in the 404 Jeffery.
This was so as not to weaken the M98 action by undercutting the bottom locking lug recess, of course, for a longer cartridge.
It did weaken it some, so pressures had to be held lower with a standard M98, early on with the old steels.
No such weakness with modern steels now,
though a true Magnum Mauser M98 is better still.

The shoulder location on the 404 Jeffery was set back to 2.001" from breech face, compared to the 2.1000" of the .400 S Jeffery.
The shoulder angle of the 404 Jeffery was increased to 8*-30' from the 7*-35' of the .400 S Jeffery.
We could discuss those later if you wish.

Same bullet weight and Cordite charge, but with larger diameter bullet in the 404 Jeffery (.422" originally).
This was done to keep pressures low, in the smaller case capacity of the 404 Jeffery for M98 (114.0 grains water weight)
versus the .400 S Jeffery (120.6 grains water weight) for double rifle and single-shot rifle.

I will qualify this by unless "I have miss something over the years Ive championed this caliber"...

Noted.

Hey I even remember some years back you chastised me over the 404, telling me the 416 could do anything the 404 could, not that you were wrong it just pissed me off!!

I was a know-nothing then, fresh from a one-shot kill on my first cape buffalo, with a .416 Rigby Ruger RSM.
With age comes wisdom, as long as you don't lose your marbles.

Ray,
I was enamored of the .416 Rigby in 2001.
It took less than 3 years for me to learn the error of my ways,
yes, thanks mainly to your teaching.
Thank you.
Now I have a new signature line since I was micromanaged out of signature priveleges about 2010. Never banned.
I think DRG did it because I posted a picture of Obama dressed as a witchdoctor with a comment about Obamacare
"coming soon to a clinic near you" as my signature line.
I just have to copy and paste a signature line each post if I want to have a signature line.
Here is my new one:

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery in Nebraska, 2004, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

Some more history may be gleaned from this ad at Champlin Firearms, Inc.
www.champlinarms.com
Very nice rifle, I just do not like the way the grain runs through the grip, what little grain can be seen.
Maybe the lack of marble cake makes it strong, despite the grain flow?



From Champlin:

RODDA 404 JEFFERY - MADE by AUGUST SCHULER for RODDA - 1928 SUHL MADE MAUSER - TALLEY QUICK DETACHABLE LEVER MOUNTS - 1/2 Round 1/2 Octagon w/ Integral Full Rib - 25 1/2" Barrel - 14" LOP - Nitro Proved in England & Germany - Very Good Bore
Style: Caliber: Price:
Bolt Rifle

404 Jeffery $5,950.00
Description:
#8189, R. B. Rodda & Co. Calcutta & Birmingham: A Mauser 404 Jeffery Sporting Bolt Rifle Made in 1928 by August Schuler, Waffenfabrik of Suhl, Germany for Rodda & Co. and marked only for Rodda. Schuler was most known for his 500 Schuler or what we call the 500 Jeffery. This 1928 Suhl made rifle has a 25" 1/2 octagon & 1/2 round Krupp steel barrel with a full length machined integral rib with 1 standing & 2 folding rear sights, It was proved both in England as a 404 (10.75 x 73mm) and in Germany, Barrel sling eye, A cross wedge to secure the barrel in the forend, Standard Mauser action with a modern bolt sleeve to facilitate a Model 70 type 3 position wing safety, Non-hinged floorplate, Modern Talley Quick Detachable Lever release 1" rings with a Leupold matte 1.5 x 5 scope, Shadowline cheekpiece, Horn forend tip, Horn grip cap, Point pattern checkering, 14" LOP over a 1" pad, Very nice cast-off in the stock and comes to the eye with ease, 9 lbs. 4 oz. without the scope and 10 lbs. 1 oz. with it mounted, All of the metal has been reblued, The stock has been refinished, The bore remains in very good condition with sharp rifling from throat to muzzle. This is pre-war Suhl, Germany tough gun with a touch of British Sporting Bolt Rifles that will serve its intended purpose in the game fields of Africa. There is about 100 each 500 Jeffery's built by August Schuler but this is the first one I have known in the great 404 Jeffery.

Rip
.

I've built my last 6 Jefferys on true magnum Mauser actions or knockoff of such over the last 10 years..Im of the notions they feed better, can seat bullets our a bit further, and in general Im more satisfied with them..prior to that all were 98 and mod 70 conversions and they were harder to get done right regardless of who I sent them to that made such claims..The bottom line is few can actually make them feed any bullet you want to use..I had no trouble with the larger actions and I liked the North Fork and GS Customs flat nose solids and especially the North Fork cup points. but when cut for them the spritzer seldom worked, anyway for what its worth.

The downside of the large action to some is weight and size of the finished rifle, in my case was averaged at 9 lbs naked..I had no problem with that and irons nor with about 10 lbs with scope..It helped with the recoil, and back then I din't mind packing it all day long, today I might but Im about through with African hunting, so its a mute questions with me.

Great post and I thank Alf and Rip for all the information and time spent on the subjest.

+1

That's part of what makes AR such a great site.

Did these early carts influence the 404 Jeffery?

I think the 10.75x52 should get some credit as a potent rimless big bore that apparently predates the 404 Jeffery.

http://www.municion.org/10/10_75x52Mannlicher.htm
http://www.municion.org/10/10_75x61Haenel.htm
http://www.municion.org/10/10_75x57Mauser.htm
http://www.municion.org/Dwm/Dwm515.htm
http://www.municion.org/Dwm/Dwm515.htm
http://forums.nitroexpress.com...ain=138413&type=post



10.75 X 52 MANNLICHER (ROTH)

According to Dixon, there is considerable debate over the origins and purposes of both this and the rimmed equivalent (A42). The RWS '10.75x52 G' and the Austrian '10.75x52 Mannlicher' appear to be the same cartridge. Both have a 12.5-12.6mm head which is used by both the "G" (rimless equivalent of the Gründig rimmed case type) and rimless cases based on the 8mm Mannlicher. An RWS factory drawing dated 19.9.1928 shows this case and confirms its relationship to the Mannlicher type. This is likely to be redrawn from an earlier drawing as RWS did much of this in the 1920's. Examples exist with "H/19/K&C/02/" , "R.W.S. NüRNBERG" headstamp. There are reports by Rosenberger that there is also a "GR / * / * / * /, but it has not been confirmed as no Roth or Hirtenberger case number is known for this case . Both FMJ and HP bullet types exist.

Interestingly, Rosenberger states when discussing the 9.3x63 and this rimless case type in general, that: "Since the 10.75x50, 10.75x52 and 10.75x60 were announced in the 1902 ammunition catalog of Keller & Co. of Vienna, Austria, but not in others, one must guess that this cartridge family is of Austrian origin." It appears that he was referring to rimless case types and if so, the 10.75x50 and 10.75x60 are a mystery and not known to exist ?? So, if all of this is correct, then not only is this the rarer rimless version of the 10.75x52R (A42), which it preceedes (being produced by 1902) but also it is a shorter cased version of the 10.75x63 (M57) which also didn't appear to c1908-1910. (Dixon)

I do not believe the 404 started out as a Rimmless !
Jeffery took a Rimmed milled it down a created the 404 just as Gibbs designed their 505 as a Rimmed and then went rimless ! This in response to the then "new age" of reliable bolt gun! Smokeless and clip charged small bore cartridges all but made the old Nitro's redundant ! The history shows this bar off course for the continued use in the very small niche of African DG hunting guiding !

Yes... your documents on the de rimmed 450-400 prove that quite clearly. It just seems there was a flurry of .423” diameter big bore rimless carts around the same time. Still crazy he went .423 over .411.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I do not believe the 404 started out as a Rimmless !
Jeffery took a Rimmed milled it down a created the 404 just as Gibbs designed their 505 as a Rimmed and then went rimless ! This in response to the then "new age" of reliable bolt gun! Smokeless and clip charged small bore cartridges all but made the old Nitro's redundant ! The history shows this bar off course for the continued use in the very small niche of African DG hunting guiding !

OK, that 10.75x52 Mannlicher from Austria in 1902 is a cutie !
Until proven otherwise, I will accept that it was the Austrians who developed the 10.75mm rifles, bullets and barrels about 1902.
It became a truly great caliber with the .404 Jeffery, certainly selling in the form of English rifles by 1905.

Jeffery created the .400 S. Jeffery in 1897 in a single-shot falling block.
It was the first ever "Nitro Express" cartridge,
soon followed by the .450 Rigby Special that survived proof as a double rifle in November 1897.

There was no such nomenclature as "Nitro Express" at that time.

They would later be called the .450/.400 NE 3"
and the .450 NE 3-1/4" during the early Twentieth Century, surely by 1905.
They were the first two Nitro Express cartridges by date of origin.

Jeffery's new .400 S. Jeffery brass was special, with thicker rim and thicker brass in the head, for Cordite loading.

That is the one he successfully turned into the .404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express in 1904-1905.

The bigger bullet caliber (10.75mm) was for keeping pressures down in the slightly smaller-cased .404 Jeffery,
versus the .450/.400 NE 3" of about .410-caliber.
Same bullet weight and powder charge in those two originally.

Rip ...

The origins of the 42 caliber ( 10.75) ( some serious loooooong shot prontification )

I have no doubt that the Austrian 10,75 and the Mannlicher rifle had something to do with the conceiving of the 404 ! The Europeans had perfected the bolt action rifle and the sport hunting world was looking for cartridges to go with them.

However:

I believe that the 10.75 (42 cal) had an American origin at the hand of The Union Army officer Col. Hiram Berdan and a Russian officer by name of Alexander Gorlov circa 1868 !

The cartridge was the "russian" 10.7×58mm R
this was the first Berdan Primed cartridge.

The rifle became the rifle of the Imperial Russian army and saw service in many wars.

Berdan and his family moved to Russia in 1868 for a time where he oversaw the production of the Berdan rifle...... some 3 million were built until it was superseded by the Mosin Nagant.

If we look at the main military rifle contenders of the time we see calibers ranging mainly between 10mm and 11 mm ( 41 cal to 45 cal )

Is the 10.75x52 the first Dangerous Game rimless cartridge?