quote:

J Wisner
one of us

Posted 04 March 2008 02:40 Hide Post
Allen.

The one 404 Obendorf that I had in the shop years ago was as follows.

ID rear width, 1.010
ID front width, .950, raduis in front aprox .200 dia
ID length inside, 3.650

I hope this helps.

quote:

I believe these two were listed as from Alf's Original 404 Jeffery

the first was in metric:
Width Rear 25.8 mm
Width Front 23.8 mm

My conversion to inches if correct:
Width Rear 1.02"
Width Front 0.94"

An additional one in inches listed as Alf's Original 404 Jeffery:

Rear 1.016"
Front 0.937"

And one listed as from urdubob (said to be from an Original M98 Jeffery)

Width Front 0.885
Width Rear 0.946

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
If I had a chronograph I could tell you since I do have some original Kynoch and RWS.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Biggest problem with many of the .505's on the market today is they are built with a magazine box that is too thin (the makers try and use the .416 rigby magazine box. One for the Gibbs should be .15" wider) This can cause the cartridges to pop out of the magazine at awkward moments and is particularly severe with nickeled cases like the Norma PH (which uses the 600grn woodleighs at 2100fps).

quote:

Review of ideals:

Some ideal box widths at the rear according to CIP maximums:

.375 H&H rim diameter of .5318" and belt diameter of .5339" maximum: box width at rear = 1.86603 x 0.5339" = 0.99627"
This is more than enough, since manufactured brass is always smaller than the CIP max.

404 Jeffery head diameter of .5429" maximum: box width at rear = 1.86603 x 0.5429" = 1.01307"

.416 Rigby rim diameter of .5902" maximum: box width at rear = 1.1013309"

500 Jeffery head diameter (rebated rim abomination, rim diameter 0.5751968") head diameter of .6188976" maximun:
box width at rear: 1.86603 x .6188976 = 1.1548814"

.505 Gibbs rim diameter of .6401574" maximum: box width at rear = 1.1945529"

Forget about adding slop unless using the "rubber band method" to measure.

Using the max spec brass diameter will build in enough slop since the manufactured brass diameters are smaller than max spec anyway.

quote:

"Oh, yes, you need to always add .015" to the width; that is if you want it to feed right".

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
RIP,
You don't shoot a 4 shot group and then only count 3 of the shots, thats not cricket my man!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
RIP,
You don't shoot a 4 shot group and then only count 3 of the shots, thats not cricket my man!

Ray: You are just jealous. Fouling shots from a clean barrel do not count.


"Shot number one was the fouling shot from a clean barrel, then it settled down."

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
This might be a good time to jump into this thread. In regards to WORDS OF WISDOM from Burgess and magazine dimensions I can say without any doubt that arbitrarily adding +.015 or more to your width calculations is not what Tom ever told me. My statement is not made to kick sand in anyones face that may have posted before me. Tom's typical lectors can only be described as enigmas wrapped in controlled chaos.

Having spent many hundreds of agonizing hours on the phone with Tom or in his presence I can see why what Tom was addressing at any giving time could get a bit confusing. I have file folders filled with many, many hand written letters from Tom going back to 1980. Some I have never been able to completely decipher. When he typed a letter to you it was to make you very clear his ideas and thoughts. When he went to e-mail the cat was out of the bag and the readers learning curve went up if they paid attention.

In short Tom used the equilateral triangle method for Sakos, 98's, Mod-70's, Zkk's etc for the 222 Rem up to the 404 Jeffery diameter cases. The limiting factor at this point is the width of the actions underside. With an approximate rear ID Mag box width of 1.013 as an example for the 404 Jeffery the action side walls at the areas just above the rear end of the magazine starts getting pretty thin if your fitting a sheet steel Magazine box machined into the the recess of say a Mod-70.

When you get into the Rigby diameter cases and larger the rule that Tom used was to make a Rigby ID Box width about 1.032 or wider if he had to clean up the feed well in a wallowed out Mag Mauser or Brno. He would then duplicated the taper from the base of the case to the shoulder of the case. If the combined taper was .020 then he duplicated this taper forward on the INDIDE OF THE MAGAZINE BOX and the re-cut the feed well of the action to match the magazine box geometry. The few Gibbs he did ran about 1.060 for ID at the rear and the ran forward with the Gibbs case taper. I used this same specs for the 2 Gibbs I did recently. The followers were made accordingly to match the boxes. The larger the case diameter makes the LAW OF THE EQUILATERAL EQUATION become more problematic when you get into cases such as the Gibbs or 500 Jeffery. If you make the magazine as wide as you determine with your rubber bands or tape the position of the bullet nose is now placed further to the right and left of the centerline of the action, further from the bullet ramp and radically increases the angle of approach that the round now has to make as it clears and releases itself from under the rails, into the bolt face and up under the extractor. While this may seem minor I can assure you that the pin in now out of the grenade. I believe reference to the extra width was in fact made in error which I can sympathies with completely. I often thought the Navaho Code Talkers would even be befuddled in a conversation with Burgess.

However I do have have many of Toms written instructions on this subject and have used these instructions for 25 years. Many have said that he followed the "Mauser Formula" exactly but a close examination of his specs for the 375, 404 and the 416 Rigby etc will prove that they are not at all the same. Tom developed his own specs and followed them accordingly. I have stocked a lot of Burgess's barreled actions over the years and I have put the calipers to everyone of them and they all follow the same principal. I own a Magnum Mauser in my shop right now that was a 350 Rigby when it left London long before I was born. It made the rounds around the gun show circuit and eventually made its way to Tom's to be turned into a 416 Rigby. As a complete barreled action it is fit with one of his Magazines & followers, holds 4 down, 1 up and works flawlessly. The box is made as I described above, to a T.

There are many ways to get the same results. All are a variation on the same basic theme. Ralf Martini, Stephen Heilmann, Duane Weibe, Mark Penrod H&W, H&H, Max Ern, Prectl (you get the idea) may approach this procedure using different specs, widths and geometry . The bottom line is the end result, not how it got to there.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
7MMNut,
Thanks, but only from my cold dead fingers.

quote:

This might be a good time to jump into this thread. In regards to WORDS OF WISDOM from Burgess and magazine dimensions I can say without any doubt that arbitrarily adding +.015 or more to your width calculations is not what Tom ever told me. My statement is not made to kick sand in anyones face that may have posted before me. Tom's typical lectors can only be described as enigmas wrapped in controlled chaos.

Having spent many hundreds of agonizing hours on the phone with Tom or in his presence I can see why what Tom was addressing at any giving time could get a bit confusing. I have file folders filled with many, many hand written letters from Tom going back to 1980. Some I have never been able to completely decipher. When he typed a letter to you it was to make you very clear his ideas and thoughts. When he went to e-mail the cat was out of the bag and the readers learning curve went up if they paid attention.

In short Tom used the equilateral triangle method for Sakos, 98's, Mod-70's, Zkk's etc for the 222 Rem up to the 404 Jeffery diameter cases. The limiting factor at this point is the width of the actions underside. With an approximate rear ID Mag box width of 1.013 as an example for the 404 Jeffery the action side walls at the areas just above the rear end of the magazine starts getting pretty thin if your fitting a sheet steel Magazine box machined into the the recess of say a Mod-70.

When you get into the Rigby diameter cases and larger the rule that Tom used was to make a Rigby ID Box width about 1.032 or wider if he had to clean up the feed well in a wallowed out Mag Mauser or Brno. He would then duplicated the taper from the base of the case to the shoulder of the case. If the combined taper was .020 then he duplicated this taper forward on the INDIDE OF THE MAGAZINE BOX and the re-cut the feed well of the action to match the magazine box geometry. The few Gibbs he did ran about 1.060 for ID at the rear and the ran forward with the Gibbs case taper. I used this same specs for the 2 Gibbs I did recently. The followers were made accordingly to match the boxes. The larger the case diameter makes the LAW OF THE EQUILATERAL EQUATION become more problematic when you get into cases such as the Gibbs or 500 Jeffery. If you make the magazine as wide as you determine with your rubber bands or tape the position of the bullet nose is now placed further to the right and left of the centerline of the action, further from the bullet ramp and radically increases the angle of approach that the round now has to make as it clears and releases itself from under the rails, into the bolt face and up under the extractor. While this may seem minor I can assure you that the pin in now out of the grenade. I believe reference to the extra width was in fact made in error which I can sympathies with completely. I often thought the Navaho Code Talkers would even be befuddled in a conversation with Burgess.

However I do have have many of Toms written instructions on this subject and have used these instructions for 25 years. Many have said that he followed the "Mauser Formula" exactly but a close examination of his specs for the 375, 404 and the 416 Rigby etc will prove that they are not at all the same. Tom developed his own specs and followed them accordingly. I have stocked a lot of Burgess's barreled actions over the years and I have put the calipers to everyone of them and they all follow the same principal. I own a Magnum Mauser in my shop right now that was a 350 Rigby when it left London long before I was born. It made the rounds around the gun show circuit and eventually made its way to Tom's to be turned into a 416 Rigby. As a complete barreled action it is fit with one of his Magazines & followers, holds 4 down, 1 up and works flawlessly. The box is made as I described above, to a T.

There are many ways to get the same results. All are a variation on the same basic theme. Ralf Martini, Stephen Heilmann, Duane Weibe, Mark Penrod H&W, H&H, Max Ern, Prectl (you get the idea) may approach this procedure using different specs, widths and geometry . The bottom line is the end result, not how it got to there.

quote:

However I do have have many of Toms written instructions on this subject and have used these instructions for 25 years. Many have said that he followed the "Mauser Formula" exactly but a close examination of his specs for the 375, 404 and the 416 Rigby etc will prove that they are not at all the same. Tom developed his own specs and followed them accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Well done Saeed. Congratulations! I did not know that 404 J ammo was available in India, but then you get anything now as long as you pay for it!

Good luck my friend.

quote:

Grandpaw’s Jeffery



It rested between the Ivory
That hung on Grandpa's wall
It's finally checked and yellowed
Like the tusks it helped to fall

It's barrel smooth and polished
From a hundred bearers hands
It reflected the light warmly
Like campfires flickering brands

The stock of English walnut
Chewed and clawed a bit
It still showed a trace of checkering
an a dent where a horn had hit

Stamped on the barrel lightly
Was a name and not much more
A single word "Jeffery"
"Jeffery .404"

If that rifle could only talk
And take us back once again
With grandpa in Africa
A time of Buffalo,Elephants and men

But that day has set it's sun
And the rifle speaks no more
Oh what I'd give for one last time
To hear it's mighty roar