Was the 404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express supposed to have used a .410-caliber bullet instead of a .423-caliber bullet?




I am studying this subject and hope to get to the bottom of it.
This has inspired me to buy a .410/.400, 1:14" twist Douglas barrel and build a .410-caliber "sporting rifle."

Any technical or historical information appreciated, or suggestions for my .410 Rifle,
not a shotgun slug barrel please, unless you have a Ted Williams Model 300 slug gun for sale.



Above is the ".400 Karamojo."
This is boom stick's suggestion for my ".410 Rifle Project" which is borrowed
from the "450 Thumper" thread for posting here.
My guesses for the .400 Karamojo's max brass dimensions are drawn below.
He may chime in if anything is wrong with this, please.



Boom stick's suggestion is a good one.

Next, though disqualified due to not being a true ".410" rifle, is the 400 Pondoro
(.409-grooved/.397-bored with 1:10" twist, origin 1992, according to A-Square manual).
It was designed for the defunct A-Square Triad of .409-caliber/400-grain bullets.
However it also does very well with .410-caliber/210-grain revolver bullets
at 3172 fps and only 58,000 psi, from a 26" barrel.
The brass dimensions are interesting for neck diameters proven workable
with standard .375 H&H brass necked up for .409 and .410-caliber bullets.



The 400 Holland and Holland Magnum dimensions are from Pierre van de Walt's book.
He lists it as having a .410-groove/.400-bore, 1:12" twist barrel.
But his book's cartridge drawing shows a .411-caliber bullet.
OK, I can shoot .411-caliber bullets in any .410-grooved barrel if I handload.
The cartridge brass specs are a little different from expected with standard .375 H&H brass.
It may have thicker brass in the neck region:



Sumbuddy who know different correct me, but here is my take on background:

In the late 1860's the newfangled centerfire, BP military and sporting rifles started showing up.
The efficient single-shot, breech-loading, centerfire, BPCR was born simultaneously on both sides of the pond,
about 1866, and in service worldwide by 1867.
Colonel Berdan designed a primer in the USA, Colonel Boxer in the UK.
The Brits won the priming event of the "arms games."
Ye olde .58 to .75-caliber flintlock and percussion muskets transitioned to BPCR,
trending downward in caliber, good use for old muskets, re-lined or re-barreled.
The .577 Snider breech-loading conversion of the Enfield Musket was adopted by the British in 1867.
The .50-70 Government was adopted by the U.S.A. in 1866.
This was after briefly trying .58 then .50 rimfire,
and then various centerfire priming methods, etc.,
in the Allin conversion of the Springfield percussion musket, etc.
The 50-70 Govt. lasted until 1873 when the new .45-70 Govt. took over in the Trapdoor Springfield Rifle.
The Brits had their .577/450 Martini-Henry by 1871,
leading the way with ballistics identical to our subsequent 45-70.
This was the "caliber-reduction arms race" of the 1870's. The British were pace-setters.

"Five-hundreds in the eighteen-sixties,
four-fifties in the eighteen-seventies,
four-hundreds in the eighteen-eighties."
That seems to have been the caliber-reduction fad with the BP cartridges.


With the newfangled drawn brass cartridges cases of the early 1870's, things were looking up,
for hotter loads and smaller calibers.
The "small bore" 450 Black Powder cartridge of case lengths 1-1/2" to 3-1/4" evolved
into a favorite stalking rifle for deer and varmints and such.
But the "400" seems to have been bordering on ineffective for the bigger game,
with the lighter lead bullets and BP of the "Sharps" and "Express" days.
Then came smokeless powder, not to mention jacketed bullets.

The French pulled ahead on that lap by adopting their 8mm Lebel in 1886,
the first smokeless powder rifle cartridge adopted by any country as a military arm.
They probably just necked down the 11mm Mauser of 1871, eh? Wildcatting!

But it seems that the wildcatters were at it everywhere, and before 1886.
Necking down of the most popular 450-bore BP Express of the day to 400-bore,
that had to be the most likely thing to do.



You may find reference to the 450/400 BP 3-1/4" Black Powder loads as early as the mid 1880's IIRC.
Surely the NFBP "Express" loads came soon after.

Then it gets a little foggy on the full "Nitro Express" loadings' dates of origin.
Some even claim the bottlenecked 450/400 NE 3-1/4", or maybe even the 450/400 3",
came before the straight-cased 450 NE 3-1/4."
I doubt it.
I think it is a safer bet that the 450 NE 3-1/4" was first in 1898.

Whatever, the 450/400 NE 3" or .400 S Jeffery arose as a solution
for thin-brass extraction problems in the longer, thinner-rimmed, 450/400 3-1/4"
that had been tried early on as a Nitro-For-BP-Express round with the old BP brass.
Better brass cured any problems with the 3-1/4" later on.

According to Hoyem, about the .400 S Jeffery:
'The 1910-1911 Jeffery catalog lists this as the Jeffery '98 Model.
The text suggests that this rifle and the cartridge designed for it
were designed some eight years before the publication.
The meaning of the "S" in the designation is not explained, but probably refers to "Smokeless."'



I have a facsimile edition of the 1912-13 Jeffery catalog.
I better go see what I can glean from that, will post some scans of that, later.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

The pic is the slightly fatter 404-375 instead of the suggested 410-375 AKA 400 Karamojo, so 13 thou different but virtually the same at first glance. The dimensions are spot on and the tiny ghost shoulder should add to the accuracy. Pistol bullets to 405 bullets to 450/400 bullets. Cheap to make and slick as hot goose shit on Teflon.

404 history thread...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


Was this the forerunner to the 404 Jeffery as we now know it. The popular claim was Jeffery tried to emulate their very popular and successful 450-400 in a rimless form for a bolt gun.



The limiting dimension that hogties original Jeffery rifles ! The lack of a long throat for modern bullets.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/4411038851/p/1



That prototype had a .406-caliber bullet!
I never noticed that before: 10.31mm = .4059" = .406 caliber
Ted Williams' batting average in 1941 by the older, tougher rules: .406
That would have been about a .450 by current rules.


So, the .406-caliber 450/400 Jeffery Rimless prototype had a significant rebate on the rim, eh?
That must be why it was not viable and spontaneously aborted.

My reproduction 1912-1913 Jeffery catalog makes it clear that the rimmed 450/400 NE 3-inch or ".400 S Jeffery" existed in 1898.
Apparently Hoyem's 1910-1911 Jeffery catalog was diferent, not so obvious.

It is also obvious that the 404 Jeffery with a .422 or .423-caliber bullet existed by 1904 conception and in the field by 1905.

Rigby was working on similar cartridges at same time as Jeffery and contracted for creation of Mauser 98 Magnum actions to start showing up about 1900.

The turn of the century before last, was an exciting time.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I am sure there are plenty of smiths with a lathe that can make a bakers dozen cases of de-rimmed 450-400 cases to play around with. The good news is that it already is a CIP cart. Not a wildcat sorry

... boom stick himself badmouthing wildcatting is the pot calling the kettle black for sure ... as you were ...

Hoyem may have been reading from a Jeffery 1910-1911 catalog, but he was reading copy that came from 1906.
The same story was reprinted again in the 1912-1913 Jeffery catalog, with no editing for dates on the time-line.
The cartridge we now call the "450/400 NE 3-Inch" was referred to as the ".400 S Jeffery" when it was 14 years old, in 1912.

It seems that the 450 NE 3-Inch "Thin Rim" and the .400 S Jeffery "Thick Rim" were born at the same time.
450 BPE 3-1/4" and 450/400 BPE 3-1/4" "thin rims" had been knocking around together since the mid 1880s.
With the advent of "Nitro Express" loadings,
Jeffery jumped right onto the brass improvement bandwagon early in 1898,
or 1897 for preliminaries.
Initially with the .400 S Jeffery, and subsequently with the 450 No. 2 and 475 No. 2 Jeffery NE cartridges, and so on.
With their .450 and .475 bores they increased diameter and length.
For their initial, smashing success, they had made the brass shorter and thicker in the rim.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, of course.
That was nitro express wildcatting.

Page 34 of same Jeffery catalog from 1912-13, showing some .400 S Jeffery targets shot in 1898:

Page 35, also reporting shooting of the .400 S Jeffery in 1898:

Page 36 testimonials to the .400 S Jeffery:

Get a load of the prices on the double rifles in 1912.
Cash business only. How else could they have just opened a new second location, a bigger HQ in the West End in 1912?
W. J. Jeffery and Company was a happenin' place.

More .400 S Jeffery testimonials on page 39:

Page 42, the bigger bores compared to the .400 S Jeffery, case capacities in water weight:

Back cover:



100 pages counting the covers and a couple of inserts, pages 97 and 98 thereof represented a facsimile, on blue paper,
of the 1930 Jeffery catalog ads for the 500 Jeffery, the ugly duckling latecomer to the party.

I refuse to dwell on the 500 Jeffery, life is too short to be a "hater."

More to follow on the 404 Jeffery, love that Norma 404 Jeffery brass.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

For a rimless 400 maybe you should just be looking at the .400 H&H.

I might as well quit chasing around the cut.

The cut is this:



How did W. J. Jeffery & Co. go so wrong with the 404 Jeffery?


Well, the 404 Jeffery worked out OK for them anyway.
But the first truly qualified and greatest ever "Magazine DGR" might have been even greater.

The ".410/404 Jeffery Justified" has exactly the same case capacity as the 404 Jeffery,
even with a slightly shorter case length,
and even though necked down for .410-caliber bullet instead of .423.
It can be loaded as short as the 404 Jeffery or as long as the .416 Rigby.
It has the same case-body taper and magazine capacity as the 404 Jeffery.
It has greater magazine capacity than the .416 Rigby.
Yet it will be superior in external and terminal ballistics,
due to greater sectional density with same weight bullets,
than either .416 Rigby or 404 Jeffery.

Hey, not even a headstamp problem.
The 404 Jeffery brass will match part of my barrel stamping, a 3-line stamping on a short Douglas knoxform,
might just need to be finely engraved in script lettering:

.410/
404 Jeffery
Justified

There just isn't enough room on a headstamp for everything.
Sort of like Saeed's ".375/404 Jeffery" rifle that uses brass with the "404 Jeffery" headstamp.

And I even get to use .416 Dakota dies from Redding for this.
That works perfectly with the thicker-necked Norma 404 Jeffery brass,
would not work by necking down the thinner-neck-walled .416 Dakota brass.
I JUST need a reamer now, got everything else. This wildcat is justifiable, and I am certifiable.



1. 450 Nitro Express 3-1/4", Dummy with HDS brass.

2. 450/400 NE 3" live cartridge made by Kynoch, but obviously different from Hornady next to it.

3. 450/400 NE 3" (.400 "S" Jeffery NE) factory loaded by Hornady.

4. 450/400 NE 3" new, unfired case from Hornady.

5. .410/404 Jeffery Aboriginal, pre-fire-forming: 404 Jeffery Norma brass FL sized in RCBS 450 NE 3-1/4",
then necked down in Redding .416 Dakota FL die.

6. .410/404 Jeffery Righteous, pre-fire-forming:
404 Jeffery Norma brass FL sized in Hornady 450/400 NE 3" die.

7. 404 Jeffery Norma brass, once-fired.

8. .410/400-grain Hornady bullet (400 CAL .410 400 GR FMJ/RNI#4103)

9. A DWM 10.75x73mm brass case that was part-way shoved into a .375 WbyMag FL die
and topped with a Nosler ballistic tip to produce a rare, double-Weatherby-shouldered wildcat.

10. .375/404 Jeffery Saeed Copycat of 2012. Reloading dies by Hornady, chamber reamer by Dave Manson.

11. .410/404 Jeffery Justified: A 404 Jeffery Norma brass case that has been neck-sized
in a Redding .416 Dakota FL sizing die (expander ball removed),
needs trimming, then ready to fire-form to a shape like #12 shown next.

12. .410/.416 Dakota made with Dakota-brand .416 Dakota brass, FL sized with expander ball removed,
snuggly fits a .410 bullet, but not as nicely tight as when Norma 404 Jeffery brass is used as in #11 above.

13. .416 Dakota with a 400-gr Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I was trying to cure your wildcatting addiction

Are you sure that 400s is the same as the 450/400? Does not look fat enough to be the 450 parent case.

I like the long neck and shoulder angle of the 404. Just needs a 410" bullet
I would rather have a 400 Karamojo though.
Grenadier...Not a fan of shoulders and belts, one or the other. A ghost shoulder is ok though

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I was trying to cure your wildcatting addiction

OK, nice intention, but no use wasting effort on that.

Are you sure that 400s is the same as the 450/400? Does not look fat enough to be the 450 parent case.

Absolutely sure.

Hoyem got that right.

THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION
VOLUME THREE (BRITISH SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES)
by George A. Hoyem

On page 114:

.450/.400-3" NITRO EXPRESS (.400 S JEFFERY)

The shoulder was moved forward, compared to the old thin-rim 450/400 NE 3-1/4",
so the .400 S Jeffery could not be loaded into the old BPE rifles, alluded to in catalog above.
Same base diameter, certainly not thinner.

The ".577 Magnum" that Jeffery said the .400 S Jeffery was superior to (in catalog above) must have been the old BP version, a .577 3-1/4",
or maybe a .577/.500 Magnum Express 3-1/8" shown on page 68 of Hoyem.
The latter used 164 grains of BP with a 440-grain lead bullet,
or 60 grains of Cordite with 440-grain bullet, nitro-for black. "No full nitro rifles were made for this cartridge."
Only a couple of hundred fps faster than a 50-70 Government Trapdoor,
but more than enough for bison.



Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I reposted the Von Gruff scans on page two of the "404 Jeffery History" thread, as they had vanished, now back:

".404 Jeffery -- The Full Monty" By Casey Lewis and Alf Smith
and
"Still More on the .404" Research by Col. Casey & Dr. Alf Smith, Text by Pierre vander Walt

Here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...841029922#3841029922

Thanks to the above gentlemen for the superb scholarship.

I re-read those two articles and the dates are straight in my head now.
I won't forget again:

Rigby's 450 NE 3-1/4-Inch Thin Rim, a "no-brainer," originated in 1897.
The .400 S Jeffery, aka 450/400 NE 3-Inch, a "brilliant innovation," started out also in 1897, though ended up being called the "New Model of 1898."

See the above articles for the story of the 404 Jeffery "wrong caliber bullet caliber."
Also Rigby's experiment with turning off the rims of the 450/400 NE 3-Inch,
well after the 404 Jeffery was available in 1905.
Rigby futzed about for 6 years before bringing out the .416 Rigby in 1911.
Fascinating.

The wildcatter in me still says the .410/404 Jeffery, using Norma brass, is justified.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

If it is possible for factory 404 ammo to be loaded in a 410-404 then perhaps a change in case dimensions as to avoid a big boom. Another reason to go 450/400 rimless

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
If it is possible for factory 404 ammo to be loaded in a 410-404 then perhaps a change in case dimensions as to avoid a big boom. Another reason to go 450/400 rimless

boom stick,

Get your golden spectacles on and look at the dimensions.

Can you fit a .452"(N2)/.455"(N1) 404 Jeffery neck into a .441"(N2)/.442"(N1) .410/404JJ?
ALSO: The 404 Jeffery case length is 2.875" while the .410/404JJ case length is 2.850"

So, some of that .452"-diameter 404 Jeffery neck N2 is going to have to squeeze into the .411"-wide free-bore of the throat of the .410/404JJ.

With a big rubber mallet to close the bolt, maybe?
I think not!

And vice versa, if Homer Simpson is loading the rifles

The base to shoulder distance of the .410/404JJ is 2.2763".
The base to shoulder distance of the 404 Jeffery is 2.001".

You could not load a .410/404JJ into a 404 Jeffery with a sledge hammer.



Rigby tried doing your wildcat in a Magnum Mauser 98, but thought better of it.

Me too.

I just love that Norma 404 Jeffery brass better than having to whittle on Hornady 450/400 NE 3" brass.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

There is some excellent (thought provoking) reading there Rip.

Hello Von Gruff,

The best of all is from the scans you provided for the "404 Jeffery History" thread.

I am going to post them here, as I finally appreciate the .400 S Jeffery to 404 Jeffery transformation.

If they only had better powders than Cordite in 1904-1905,
the "404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express" probably would have been known as the ".400 S Jeffery Rimless."
But to be more perfect is like to be more pregnant ...

The Von Gruff scans:










































I might crop and auto-correct these later:

Still More on the .404
Research by Col. Casey Lewis & Dr. Alf Smith -- Text by Pierre van der Walt
Big Bore Journal No.21 June 2007









Riflecrank Internationale Permanente.
Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.

I'll have to pick up where Rigby left off
But I have many other pressing priorities right now.
Golden spectacles on!

Never too late to make the perfect cartridge huh?? My present 40 is the slightly shortened 405 Win (3.02 coal) on the MLE action. 5 down 1 up in a single stack mag so still think the 40 is the best bore size for a mulitplicity of uses.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Never too late to make the perfect cartridge huh?? My present 40 is the slightly shortened 405 Win (3.02 coal) on the MLE action. 5 down 1 up in a single stack mag so still think the 40 is the best bore size for a mulitplicity of uses.

Watch out, boom stick will want you turn the rims off and headspace on the case mouth.
Don't listen to him on that worthy 6-Shooter, the "400 Von Gruff Light Rifle Express."

BTW, I psoted the second article from your scans in "augmented form" on the "404 Jeffery History" thread.
Thanks for sending those, six years ago. They are still the best info on the .400 S Jeffery transformation into the 404 Jeffery.
Casey, Alf and Pierre did very well putting all that together.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery in Nebraska, 2004, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

RIP, why did you post that pair of asses in the field?
I like the mini 405 idea. Hogs to prairie dogs. In fact, cut it down to 2.1" and it will make a fine lever gun cartridge

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP, why did you post that pair of asses in the field?

Nobody ever accused me of being outstanding in my field.
Out lying in my field, or out mooning in my field, yes, I have been accused of that, as well as just making an ass of myself.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery in Nebraska, 2004, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

Circling back to this thread and thinking of my own .410 bolt gun.

There are a couple things I don't like about the 400H&H.
First, why is the neck so long?
I guess it helps to make a greater shoulder diameter and angle putting the shoulder back further along the case taper but why?
Number two, is the belt.
I know, the belt is sort of an H&H trademark and goes along with the 300 and 375 but its anachronistic IMO.

The 400 Pondoro takes care of the neck length weirdness but somehow is still a bit under the H&H in water capacity (?) How is that?
Shorter neck and broader shoulder but less capacity??

So, how about a beltless Pondoro?
458Lott brass.
Trim the belt.
.5" neck length

Is the shoulder and taper from base to shoulder enough to do away with the belt? Seems like it.
Would a simple rebore/rechamber of a 375H&H work?
Also, does an action set up for belted cases (375H&H) pose any problems if the belts are removed, such as the rails end up a bit too wide when the belt is gone?

I think it is a good looking case.

One thing to also put in was the Russian .42 Berdan to begin the smaller cartridges to come through and be popular.

400 Karamojo?
http://forums.accuratereloadin...511046032#5511046032

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Circling back to this thread and thinking of my own .410 bolt gun.

There are a couple things I don't like about the 400H&H.
First, why is the neck so long?
I guess it helps to make a greater shoulder diameter and angle putting the shoulder back further along the case taper but why?
Number two, is the belt.
I know, the belt is sort of an H&H trademark and goes along with the 300 and 375 but its anachronistic IMO.

The 400 Pondoro takes care of the neck length weirdness but somehow is still a bit under the H&H in water capacity (?) How is that?
Shorter neck and broader shoulder but less capacity??

So, how about a beltless Pondoro?
458Lott brass.
Trim the belt.
.5" neck length

Is the shoulder and taper from base to shoulder enough to do away with the belt? Seems like it.
Would a simple rebore/rechamber of a 375H&H work?
Also, does an action set up for belted cases (375H&H) pose any problems if the belts are removed, such as the rails end up a bit too wide when the belt is gone?

I think it is a good looking case.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
400 Karamojo?

The Karamojo still has a belt (?) and the case I'm thinking of, with a longer neck, has a .485" shoulder.
A cast 400gr bullet seated to the base of the neck
gives an OAL of 3.565"
I like the idea of using cast bullets in big bores and to my thinking a long neck is preferable for cast bullets or is that not something I should not be concerned with?

In that "Case", you could neck up the 300 HH case to get the neck length you desire. If you must rid yourself of a belt, you could paper patch 400 bullets in a regular 404 Jeffery. Someone here has a true 410-404 wildcat Jeffery and he likes it. Perhaps a wildcat on the 8x68 case? Just a neck up for a 410-68?

D.P.C.D. has been doing the 404/.410 for years. I bought one off of him, sort of as a match for my Rodda double 450-400. It shoots well and thats one less bullet size to add to my supplies.

I just saw this; I have build a few 404s with .410 barrels; uses much more common bullets and use dies from the 450-400 and 404 brass. In fact, I have a new one I might sell....
I never was attracted to .423 bullets, although Douglas makes that barrel too. I liked the idea of one bullet, 410, for doubles and bolts. Like Lee does.