Alf,

I would like to think that is true.
A Russian-American collaboration !
OK. Thanks for that, never occurred to me,
I have neglected the Russia angle.
But wasn't that the 10.66x57R Berdan No.2 of 1868 that had such widespread use by Russia ?
I refer to Hoyem, VOLUME TWO chapter "Russia" pp. 187-194 and page 282 of "Centerfire Arms and Cartridge Data."

Russian Colonel Gorloff spent a time from 1866-1867 at the Colt factory in Connecticut developing rifles and ammo with Hiram Berdan.
(Gorloff also designed the improved .44 Smith & Wesson "Russian" cartridge.)
First they had a Berdan version of a trapdoor-like breechloader for transforming muzzleloaders,
with 10.16x57R (.407-caliber bullet) and 11.7x57R (.461-caliber) experimental cartridges for this "Berdan No.1" rifle.
They quickly moved on to the single-shot, bolt-action Berdan No.2 rifle for the 10.66x57R, a nominal .42-caliber,
but Hoyem says that was actually a .431-caliber/370-grain bullet, and 78 grains of BP propelled it.
Later Russian Berdan No.2 bullets also included
Carbine load: .428-caliber/370-gr/60-gr BP
Gatling load: .418-caliber/(no bullet weight or BP charge specified)

But wait !
The original 10.66x57R Berdan No.II cartridge had a paper-patched bullet.
Assume the patched diameter was .431" diameter.
Remove the paper patch and the slick lead bullet diameter might be 0.423" = 10.7442mm
That is close enough to 10.75mm for me.
I will buy the story, and stick to it.
Thanks be to Berdan and Gorloff.


I will also say that the .458 WIN-V 3.6" evolved from an experimental U.S. rimfire with drawn brass case 1.409" long
and with COL of 2.527". The .459-caliber/500-grain grease-grooved bullet was loaded LongCOL in 1864, during the CIVIL WAR.
Hoyem called it the .44-45-500 (11.18mm) U.S. Experimental, 1864-1865 (pp. 164, 202 of VOLUME ONE).

An even earlier ancestor was the .45-caliber Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle,
from which the Brits took inspiration for their "Express Rifles."
Thank the Americans.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 10.75x52 the first Dangerous Game rimless cartridge?

Maybe, but not the first truly successful one.
That happened with the .404 Jeffery rifle of 1905,
the first truly competent, smokeless, magazine-repeater DGR
that also happened to use a rimless cartridge.

Rip ...

All of that is true RIP. Not many question the importance and ability of the 404 Jeffery, I just never knew about some carts and developments that spawned the great cartridges to come. I never would have given much thought to this “cutie” 10.75x52 but it may be the 404 Jeffery is the Buzz Aldren to the 10.75x68 Neil Armstrong. I would think a Mauser 10.75x52 set up like the original for hunting tigers etcetera would be a great addition to a nostalgia snob collection. Maybe there are others worthy of the “First” title, I just don’t know. What year did Gibbs and Jeffery start taking the rims off of rimmed cartridges? If you were a 404 Jeffery man, wouldn’t you want the grand daddy to the cart as well for say, hunting hogs in a nice light stalking set up? 10.75x68 brass is easy to come by to form this unknown cutie.

its not that they made cases from rimmed cartridges per se it has to do with the evolution of both cartridges.
The legend is that Gibbs intended for the 505 to be a rimmed cartridge but then switched plans and went rimless but not to forget kept the cordite and the large cap primer ! Kynoch kept it that way until they stopped making them in the late 60's ( round about 69 ) As for the Jeffery we have this single example of a Nitro HS case turned down formed and loaded to Jeffery spec.... what we don't know was this a run up to the Jeffery or someone who made them when not having Jeffery brass ? it appears to be a factory loading !

boom stick,
The .404 Jeffery is a most interesting footnote in history.
That is the history of the development of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
All roads lead to the .458 Winchester Magnum.

As far as collecting the forerunners, I would rather have the U.S. experimental rimfires from 1864,
even if they were Gatling guns.



But of course I would not turn my nose up at a rifle like xausa's 404 Jeffery on a single-square-bridge Magnum Mauser, with Wiebe bottom metal,
a custom rifle with excellent wood:







Rip ...

quote:

The .404 Jeffery is a most interesting footnote in history.
That is the history of the development of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
All roads lead to the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Hmmm nice try RIP Sorry but no go ! The 404 is a 404, the 458 Win is a 458 Win !

Each a place in history, one came first and the other followed ! I believe that one day not to long from now new shooters will look back and long fondly for both of these calibers ! I venture a bet that with time this all be something we will only read about !

This long running thread has been great and I am sorry that Photobucket "lost" all my photos I had posted earlier of my 1906 Jeffery 404.
But I still have the photos and can email them, or I suppose set up a Dropbox, so interested parties can see them.
I do have an update on my early Jeffery. I had always intended to take it to Africa but when I had a chance to hunt buffalo in Zimbabwe with my son and daughter last summer, and was looking for a way to finance all three airfares, I put the Jeffery up for adoption and let it take us to Africa !
We had a fantastic trip in the SAVE conservancy with Phillip Smythe and with my old 458 and my daughters Echol's 416 Remington we somehow managed.

I regret I could not buy that gun without being wildly irresponsible.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
This long running thread has been great and I am sorry that Photobucket "lost" all my photos I had posted earlier of my 1906 Jeffery 404.
But I still have the photos and can email them, or I suppose set up a Dropbox, so interested parties can see them.
I do have an update on my early Jeffery. I had always intended to take it to Africa but when I had a chance to hunt buffalo in Zimbabwe with my son and daughter last summer, and was looking for a way to finance all three airfares, I put the Jeffery up for adoption and let it take us to Africa !
We had a fantastic trip in the SAVE conservancy with Phillip Smythe and with my old 458 and my daughters Echol's 416 Remington we somehow managed.

I still have few paper wrapped bricks of the old Kynoch ammo that came with it.

For the Greater Good Phil. I admire that. I do want to know, whose Ruger #1 in what caliber was snuggling up to Old Ugly in the Africa photo's?
I am guessing your Son's and would love to hope it was a 35 Whelen but I'll wait patiently for a factual answer.
Best to you Sir.

Phil,

Is this one of the photos of which you speak?



If you can send them to me, I will post as long as Imgur is still working.
Above is only 640 wide.
I prefer 1024 wide, can size the originals to whatever you like.
PM if interested.

What was financed by the above rifle:
320 wide


3000 wide


1280 wide


All roads lead to the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Rip

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
This long running thread has been great and I am sorry that Photobucket "lost" all my photos I had posted earlier of my 1906 Jeffery 404.

Check again.
All of my photos have been restored and are showing on my old posts again.
Whew!!

Enough said ! No defence required

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
For the Greater Good Phil. I admire that. I do want to know, whose Ruger #1 in what caliber was snuggling up to Old Ugly in the Africa photo's?
I am guessing your Son's and would love to hope it was a 35 Whelen but I'll wait patiently for a factual answer.
Best to you Sir.

It was a 375 H&H that he left for the PH as a tip. And promptly replaced when he got home.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I still have few paper wrapped bricks of the old Kynoch ammo that came with it.

Hamilton Bowen wants them, dead or alive,
but he might prefer to trade his work for them, at fair rates.

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/wanted.html

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I still have few paper wrapped bricks of the old Kynoch ammo that came with it.

Hamilton Bowen wants them, dead or alive,
but he might prefer to trade his work for them, at fair rates.

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/wanted.html

I don't know what he does with old Kynoch ammo other than sell for collector value. I have 404 Kynoch ammo in original boxes date coded 30 January 1963 and out of each 5 round box fired, at least one if not two cases will split the neck on firing.

Not a big deal I suppose in that the ammo shoots fine and in my case I anneal the good cases to reload and also repair and then anneal the split cases and use these for cast loads.

Some probably wouldn't risk using old Kynoch ammo on dangerous game and no need to with today's supply of good factory ammo and reloading components for the 404, still would add to the nostalgia factor if you dropped a buff or flattened a lion with a Kynoch soft in 404

When I purchased the rifle, which had been originally purchased for an Alaskan brown bear hunt by an Oregon lumber baron, it came with 20 or so boxes of original Kynoch ammo.
The original owner's grandsons had been using the rifle and ammo for elk hunting.

But if Hamilton Bowen is interested in trading I am sure we could use another of his pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
For the Greater Good Phil. I admire that. I do want to know, whose Ruger #1 in what caliber was snuggling up to Old Ugly in the Africa photo's?
I am guessing your Son's and would love to hope it was a 35 Whelen but I'll wait patiently for a factual answer.
Best to you Sir.

It was a 375 H&H that he left for the PH as a tip. And promptly replaced when he got home.

Thank you Sir! I appreciate it.

The 1905 vintage .404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express and a few other rifles, photos by Phil Shoemaker:



Over a century passed after this .404 Jeffery was crafted, then came the .416 Ruger Hawkeye "African," a ballistic fraternal twin,
remarkably about same 8.5 lbs weight:



.416, .500, .458, .375, any further details from Phil:



Ol'Ugly and a different kind of AK, not the 49th State of the USA:



All roads lead to the .458 Winchester by way of the .404 Jeffery.

Rip ...

Thanks for posting those.
The Ruger siding on the bear skull with the Jeffery 404 is a .416 Ruger.
They are more similar than not and both weigh right at 8 1/2 pounds and velocities virtually identical as well.

Fixed it, above:

Edit: Over a century passed after this .404 Jeffery was crafted, then came the .416 Ruger Hawkeye "African," a ballistic fraternal twin,
remarkably about same 8.5 lbs weight ...