quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The 404 name is purely conjecture and one that I came up with after researching the origens of the 404 with Casey Lewis. We were going to publish our research but somehow never got to it.

The caliber .423 ( 10.75) is old BP European, the case is British, the load on original form is British. The caliber originally was not 423 but 422 as per the Birmingham proof house records

Why do I claim that it's not German:

Propellant used:

Stick nitro ! The Germans went BP then Flake, no intermediate in the form of Stick Nitro as the English did, and to boot the Germans went flake with the 7x57 when the Brits were still smoking the world up with BP.

From inception ? 1904 introduced 1905 the 404 was Stick Nitro unitll about 1926 when the Germans load for it in Flake.

The second pointer is bullet weight.

Unlike modern wildcatters the Germans did not simply take a existing case, tweak and load, they, true to their reputation for precision actually worked out loads and optimal bullet weight mathematically and verified loads in ballistics labs. They were very proud of these facilities and rightly so.

So you see the odd bullet mass choices in their original cartridges. The 10,75 x 68 is an example, it's optimal bullet weight for charge weight was mathematically deduced and verified in a lab.

The case: it's Jeffery 450-400 and the volume is to accomodate Nitro not Flake. If it were German and designed for the Mauser action size of the time the case would have ended up the same size as the 10,75 x 68.

The Germans did not extend action use beyond the dimensions of cartridges designated per action size. If and when they needed to use a large case cartridge they designed a special action to match or else they altered the case making it fatter and rebating the rim

So to get to the 404, if it were German it would have been loaded with flake and we would likely have seen a different optimal bullet weight and case size for it.

The forerunner of this cartridge is a 450 -400 Jeffery with the rim turned down and an extractor groove cut. The caliber of these specimens = .409

Cartridges exist for this but I know of no rifle in existance today chambered in this format. It also has the large cap Berdan Primer of the original 450-400 Jeffery.

The first commercial 404 was by Eley.

There are many fallacies about the 404 and one is that it came in many variations, this is not true, the cartridge itself retained it's basic dimension and caliber .422 and then later .423 from start to current, this based on the various drawings as submitted to the Birmingham Proof House over the years.

As too bore size now there are different sizes out there, the German derived barrels were all standard. The British Vickers barrels however were smaller diameter and the reason possibly two fold. The difference in the Way the Germans measured bore ( they did not designate bore as land to land, they went groove to groove ) Hence their propencity for larger bullets for caliber .

Secondly then the fact that the Brits were shooting Nitro and needed to opitimize on pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


Was this the forerunner to the 404 Jeffery as we now know it. The popular claim was Jeffery tried to emulate their very popular and successful 450-400 in a rimless form for a bolt gun.



The limiting dimension that hogties original Jeffery rifles ! The lack of a long throat for modern bullets.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by 303epps:
Why did a lot of publications state that the .404 Jef was introduced in 1909?
Did Jeffery put it open to the trade then.

quote:

Could I suguest that we dont quote a post with multiple pics in its entirety

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"Jeffery had co-designed a shorter rimless cartridge by reducing the case length of his popular .450/400x3" case from 3" 76.2mm to 73mm.
This still marginally reduced the safety margin, but was sufficiently strong as long as the pressure was kept at the original specification of 17.2 tons per square inch (2,240 lbs to the ton).

The net result of the modifications to the .450/400x3" was the shorter, fatter, rimless cartridge we know as the .404 Jeffery and which used the weight of bullet and propellant as its rimmed predecessor."

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
The thing I like about the 404, as is shown in the A Square loads is the velocity.

It doesn't seem to need to be pushed to high velocities to work.

Although of course some like to stick it on "Speed drugs", it doesn't need it.

Comments / Thoughts ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
History is endlessly interesting.

But when I'm standing there in killing range of something like an elephant or a buffalo, I only care about now.

As in the present.

I will trade history for the same bullet, or even better, a bigger, heavier and stronger one, driven faster, and with far more deadly effect.

Bigger, heavier, stronger and faster are better, in my book.

But feel free to bang away with smaller, lighter, weaker and slower, if you please, as YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
History is endlessly interesting.
But when I'm standing there in killing range of something like an elephant or a buffalo, I only care about now.
As in the present.
I will trade history for the same bullet, or even better, a bigger, heavier and stronger one, driven faster, and with far more deadly effect.
Bigger, heavier, stronger and faster are better, in my book.
But feel free to bang away with smaller, lighter, weaker and slower, if you please, as YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Michael, This thread is for the history of the 404, not for those oponents of this wonderful cartridge. Please dont let it degrade into a cartridge bashing series of posts. It is for positive imformative posts rather than negative attitudes. There are plenty of other threads where negativity might be relevant but this is not one of them.
It was started so afficianado's could put all the relevant historical to present imformation in one thread on a singular cartridge and the rifles chambered for it.
I apolagise if you take this amis but you have added nothing to this endevour.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by 303epps:
What happend to all the .404 rifles that all the game departments have?