ttp://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx348/Ron395/404J/scan0026.jpg[/IMG]



This account hardly gives the sheep kill to the 404 in my book. If an animal is only superficially hit and is followed up and killed by another then I think it stretches things a bit to credit the 404 with the kill. The rifle wasn't carried on a specific sheep hunt as the sheep was a target of oportunity at best, even if it was a spectacular target of oportunity.
That dose not detract from a 404 being a viable sheep rifle though. The 320gn GS Customs at 2700fps in a light rifle would certainly fill the bill for a go to rifle.

Von Gruff.

Obviously!
That was still the greatest North American trophy of all time, and first blood was drawn by a 404 Jeffery, minor scratch though it was.
Just some 404 Jeffery History,
no flies on the 404 Jeffery.

The flies were on the tongue of L.S. Chadwick, hanging out there while he was panting and pulling the trigger.

I wonder what kind of contraption Mr. Chadwick attached to make the bolt action work faster?
That would be a picture for the 404 Jeffery History book.

quote:

I wonder what kind of contraption Mr. Chadwick attached to make the bolt action work faster?
That would be a picture for the 404 Jeffery History book.

Cant even begin to imagine anything, other than practice that is.

Von Gruff.

8 or 8.5 pounds weight is what the early 404 Jeffery M98s were often advertised at.

Here is my 8.5 pounder, that shot the targets at bottom of page 2 of this thread, 340-grain North Forks at 2706 fps,
and slew a big bull bison with one North Fork,
380-grainer at 2526 fps.
Varget loads.

That's 8.5 pounds of dry-weight, rifle with scope bases only. There's lots of steel cross bolts and epoxy in and on this stock:







Above is the Winchester Model 70 "40-plus-caliber 4-shooter" 404 Jeffery, in a Brown precision Stock.
Rebarreling and metalwork by Rusty McGee.
Stock work by me.
It started off as a short action Winchester stock that I rebuilt internally to fit the long action RUM,
and cross-bolted, and wrist bolted and pillar & glass bedded to the n-th degree.
I liked the J B Weld camo pattern so much that I painted the map of Africa on the butt, complete with peak of Kilimanjaro.

Below is a CZ Kevlar stock on the CZ 550 Magnum 404 Jeffery, a freebie from CZ after the fancy walnut stock snapped off at the wrist, right through the grip.
It holds 5 down in the box, a 6-shooter:



The common CZ 550 Magnum box is "Mauser-Cosine-Perfect" in width for the 404 Jeffery.
No other rifle they make is so slick feeding.
True, the box is too long, but it does not seem to hurt anything there.
It could easily be blocked shorter AND a reinforcing heat-treated, polished steel plate soldered inside the box at the front wall,
and bevel it to blend into the feed ramp.

Now to get back to the historical mood, an ad for the India market:



Nice pair from Champlins.
Claiming Magnum Mausers that weigh 8.5 and 8 pounds respectively, Left and Right below.

I think the 404 Jeffery case diameter is the biggest case that is a perfect fit in a perfect, staggered magazine box,
for all the old Mausers, new Mausers, standard and magnum, CZ 550 Magnums, Winchesters, Rugers, Sakos, Dakota 76 Africans, and even Remchesters.

Sure a straight-line feed, vertical single stack, will work well, and it's a must for some oddballs.

The common actions are just not wide enough in the rails and ports to allow "Mauser Cosine Law" perfection of box geometry,
with anything bigger than the 404 Jeffery case ... unless some shoe-horn-rigging techniques are applied.

Trapezoid tapers of side walls of boxes (wider at bottom than top), angular folding, ribbing and windowing of imperfectly sized box sidewalls,
extra deep and far too skinny boxes, and more tricks?

Perfection with three or four down in a standard depth stock and box is possible only with a 404 Jeffery case or smaller, like the H&H belted.

The 404 Jeffery was the first DGR/big bore bolt action rifle, made to fit the Mauser, in 1905.
They got it right the first time.

Nothing else is perfect, except the 404 Jeffery or some wildcat of that cartridge case,
but we get by, somehow, and happy we are to try to make the imperfect do,
with all the master gunbuilders of the world trying to make the sow's ear into a silk purse.

Excluding the in-line single stack magazine,
can somebody tell me where the custom rifle is with the perfect box geometry for a .416 Rigby, a 500 Jeffery, or a .505 Gibbs?

Has one ever been made?

Prove it with the the inside box widths at base and at shoulder.
Measure three cartridges rubber-banded together,
or use trig and a single cartridge's diameters at base and shoulder.
Do they match the box width?

I am waiting for the perfect rifle, that is based on something bigger than the 404 Jeffery case.

It's truly a "custom rifle" if it exists, eh?
Sumbuddy who know?

(Not you shootaway.)

I'm not sure the caliber used to kill a record ram has much to do with anything other than he killed it..JOC is right thats not a sheep rifle and never was intended to be, but it was the hunters choice, not Jacks..

The biggest Mule Deer I ever killed was with my .25-35 iron sighted Win 94 Carbine, but I could have killed him just as well with a 404 or 270 or for that matter a 22 Hornet..again the caliber used is only interesting, nothing more and makes no point.

To me a better example of the greatness of a 404 is to shoot elephant with a heart shot, or a Lion or Buffalo..That is where it shines IMO..That will cause some discention in some groups and praise be to Alla for others, but the bottom line is that the 404 has proven to me what a good 404 can do. I determined long ago that I had no need for a larger caliber, others disagree and that is fine, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Rip the closest thing to a perfect box for the big bores mentioned is the Rem or Win Enfield IMO, but I am sure some will find fault with any action if they look hard enough and believe what they say.

Ray,
You miss the point.
The Enfield box width is used for everything from 30-06 to .505 Gibbs.
It is made to feed by other tricks than perfect geometry, with the larger cartridge cases.
Imperfection.
But in the real world, everything is relative, it depends, and there are no absolutes:
VIKING LAW
The Vikings never new about the 404 Jefery.

Nobody can tell me of the rifle with a perfect box for anything bigger than a 404 Jefffery or a wildcat based on that 404 Jeffery case diameter?

Just as I thought.

Screw the Vikings!

The 404 Jeffery is perfect.

RIP

You are overlooking the :

416 Taylor in a Pre-64 M 70



SSR

Cross L,
Nope, we are talking anything bigger than the 404 Jeffery case.
A .416 Taylor in a Pre-64 M70 Winchester sounds perfect to me.

Nobody?

Gotcha--my mistake then

SSR

RIP,

I like your .404 Winchester M70!

I'm just finalising the details on how my own .404 will take place, however it will be built on a Montana MRC 1999 long action. I had an email back from Jeff at MRC, and I can expect the action in 2 months time.

It will be blued steel, and walnut, essentially a modern classic.

What contour, barrel length and barrel manufacture did you use for your .404?

Regards,

Michael.

This is my rifle , VZ action , 5 shot magazine buildt by gunsmith up here, Had it for a few years . I have a Leupold 1-4 on it , longest range on it i have shot with it was 450 meters, with 300 grain lead bullets.





Various bullets i have tried in it . The rhino i havent tried it was just a couple of it when it came with the rifle.

When i get back into the reload and shooting , 450 grain woodleigh is hig up on the try list .

the bullet on farthes left is the Tonheim PBP now, 300 grain, unfortunaltely the bullet maker has put his business on shelf depending on better economic times,

nr 2 Barnes X 400 grain, torpedo is better word for it , dont stop in much . 400 grn Barnes solid, old model, 400 grn Rhino, 300 grain Mimek

caleld yesterday to check on my 10,75x68 .. which i am having setup to crimp on hornady DGX bullets (tad longer than 3.18ish) .. should be right there in the ball park of the 404.

why not a 404? cuz "everyone" has a 404!

kiwiwildcat:

You like my "African Sheep Rifle?"
Thank you!

That M70 has a McGowen No.4 Medium Sporter contour that is cut down to 24" length and is 0.700" at the muzzle.
That barrel comes in at 0.650" diameter at 28" length.
It is plenty heavy enough for a 404 Jeffery at 24" muzzle.
The No.5 Heavy Sporter would be about .750" at 24" length and it would be about 1/2 pound heavier, @24" length for both.
That is the only other choice. No.4 light, No. 5 heavy, for a 404, IMHO.
My twist is 1:10". Accurate at 300 yards, even though the groove diameter is a nominal 0.425",
the nominal bore diameter is 0.416" from McGowen.
It is accurate with .423" and .424" diameter bullets.
It slugs about 0.4245" best i can tell.
Might not be good with the Barnes TSX that is a nominal 0.422", though often QC's out to 0.4205"!!! Thanks Barnes!

Barrel groove diameters:

.423" groove: Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther
.424" groove: Krieger
.425" groove: McGowen

So, nobody can show me a perfectly-sized, staggered-feed magazine box for anything bigger than the 404 Jeffery case size?

Just as I reckoned ...

Rip,
Good point, fortunately, and so far, my new 404 Enfield feeds like poop through a goose, I guess I owe one to Dennis Olson..of course you realize that after I get it back from the bluer, it won't feed and the inletting will be to tight!

Here is my William Evans 404




And thought I would post a couple pictures of a "split" bullet. As a kid, I wondered what Taylor meant when speaking of "soft nose splits" and admittedly didn't know exactly what they were until I came across a box.
Split on the left, regular soft nose on the right - both original Kynoch.

Fun Thread ..Hornady loads ammo for the 404 Jeffery 400gr.bullet at 2300fps

http://www.hornady.com/store/404-Jeffery/

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever measured the box dimensions of some old big bores? A survey of these boxes, with each cartridge listed, might be a good reference source.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever measured the box dimensions of some old big bores? A survey of these boxes, with each cartridge listed, might be a good reference source.

Rusty,
Thanks for paraphrasing for me.
If anyone cares to reveal the inside width at the back of the box, where the base of the cartridge goes:
I think we will find that only those cartridges as large as or smaller in base diameter than the 404 Jeffery, were ever built properly in box geometry.
All the cartridges bigger in base diameter than the 404 Jeffery use various tricks to make them load and feed "adequately."
I am still looking for that rare exception.

Rusty,
You do not even need to know anyway.
Your genius with parts available works as well as "Ye Olde English" and the Krautmaster pieces for anything bigger than the 404 Jeffery case.
The 404 Jeffery or smaller case is an easy perfection.
No one here wants to reveal the imperfections of their magazine boxes.

I guess the 375 is not a big bore sice the 404 is the first rimless big bore cart and the 400/375 patent was out in 1904 and introduced in 1905 Not to mention the 9,5x57 designed in 1905

BS,
That piddly little 400/375 belted forerunner of the .375 H&H of 1912 is not even in the running for DGR consideration.
The 404 Jeffery of 1905 is the first and still best DGR bolt action.

According to Hoyem, volume three:

".400/.375 Belted Nitro Express (.400/.375 Holland and Holland)
(imagine two pictured cartridge specimens here)
This cartridge appeared in 1905, the first of Holland and Holland's belted case rifle loads. The charge was 43 grains of cordite and a 270-grain bullet. It was used for the most part in bolt action magazine rifles. The specimen at bottom with the sectioned bullet has the wood-filled metal cap fitted over the jacketed body. this round was somewhat under-powered for large game."

Remember the British "velopex" dum-dum bullets of WWI for the 303 British?
Alf told us about that one long ago.

The .375 Rimless Nitro express (9.5x57 Mannlicher Schoenauer) is more of the same inferiority. British loaded, Austrian origin.
43 grains of smokeless powder with a 270-grain bullet was the "modern" ICI loading (1955).

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Not to mention the 9,5x57 designed in 1905

Doesn't count, they lost the war so Britain was able to re write history


.

No staggered magazine box perfection out there for anything bigger than the 404 Jeffery, eh?
I have long suspected this.
I sure wish someone could prove me wrong on this.

Oh drat, I left an eraser crumb on the scanner:



The cartridges stack into an equilateral triangle in cross section,
so the case head diameter determines how wide the box should be inside, at the back.
And about 0.010" of extra slop inside the box does not hurt, better than too tight ...
like all the other make-do boxes for cartridges bigger than the 404 Jeffery in the case head.

Maybe the .280 Ross could be the exception.
The rim diameter on the .280 is greater than the rim or base diameter than the 404 and the box widths at the rear are very close. Of course, the width of the box at the front end is much narrower on the .280 than the 404 which has an effect of staggering the cases at the rear while keeping the tips of the bullets nearly inline.
Are the dimentions of the 404 box you are using from a standard or magnum action?

Huvius,
Thanks for keeping this thread alive.
But, rimmed cartridges are disqualified from consideration in bolt action rifles.
The fussiness of loading them with successive rims in front of the lower one in the magazine precludes them from consideration. No good for a DGR.
280 Ross rim diameter = .5600".

The CZ 550 Magnum box width at the rear is 1.052" (inside width).
This is greater than needed for the .404 Jeffery, however, my specimen (pictured above),
uses the same box width at rear, but ribbed box as used for the .375 H&H thus decreasing the effective width to perfection for the 404 Jeffery.
It is too large for the .375 H&H, and too small for the .416 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, and .505 Gibbs,
even when used without the ribs.
CZ uses the same box rear width for all of these cartridges.

The Winchester M70 in 404 Jeffery, pictured above uses the 300 RUM box which is a windowed box that is 0.975" in width at the rear.
This is how the "make-do" techniques work.
It seems to work well for the the 404 Jeffery.

************************************************************************************************************************************************
Some ideal box widths at the rear according to CIP maximums:

.375 H&H rim diameter of .5318" and belt diameter of .5339" maximum: box width at rear = 1.86603 x 0.5339" = 0.99627"
This is more than enough, since manufactured brass is always smaller than the CIP max.

404 Jeffery head diameter of .5429" maximum: box width at rear = 1.86603 x 0.5429" = 1.01307"

.416 Rigby rim diameter of .5902" maximum: box width at rear = 1.1013309"

500 Jeffery head diameter (rebated rim abomination, rim diameter 0.5751968") head diameter of .6188976" maximun:
box width at rear: 1.86603 x .6188976 = 1.1548814"

.505 Gibbs rim diameter of .6401574" maximum: box width at rear = 1.1945529"

Forget about adding slop unless using the "rubber band method" to measure.

Using the max spec brass diameter will build in enough slop since the manufactured brass diameters are smaller than max spec anyway.

Rusty:

The closest I can come to an old masterpiece of box geometry:

Pre-64 Winchester M70 in either .375 H&H or 300 H&H:

Inside box width at rear is 1.000".
That is about as close at it gets to calculated perfection for the .375 H&H (0.99627").
It also holds 4 down in the standard, slim stock with flush floor plate, no drop belly.

Why in the heck would post-64 Winchester go with 0.975" instead of 1.000" for the .375 H&H?

So a 404-375 would be best in a pre 64
Thanks

Is it easy to get a Model 70 Win in 300 RUM? I understand that it can be rebarrelled to a 404 Jeffery & ready to go.

Any one with experience or info????

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Is it easy to get a Model 70 Win in 300 RUM? I understand that it can be rebarrelled to a 404 Jeffery & ready to go.

Any one with experience or info????

I think their is another thread on this subject.

I think finding a Win Mod 70 in a RUM would be the hardest thing.

.

quote:

But, rimmed cartridges are disqualified from consideration in bolt action rifles.

Although the rim is of greater diameter than the base of the case, I wouldn't consider the .280 Ross a "rimmed" cartridge in the traditional sense. I am thinking that the body has such taper that the rim is more or less inline with the taper of the case.
I didn't measure my Gibbs .280 but did measure my .416 (1.023")and 404 (.965").
Also, other than facilitating the addition of one more cartridge, there has to be a trade-off somewhere and a good reason why the bigbore bolt guns were not generally offered with wider boxes and thus a more staggered cartridge arrangement.
I would think that spring life would be shortened with the extra work to do.

If the 404-375 came out a hundred years ago would it be lauded as the best DG hunter bolt action ever?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
If the 404-375 came out a hundred years ago would it be lauded as the best DG hunter bolt action ever?

No, because the 404 Jeffery would have had a 6 year headstart on it.

The feeding design of the 375 and the performance of the 404
Whats not to like if it was 106 years old.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Is it easy to get a Model 70 Win in 300 RUM? I understand that it can be rebarrelled to a 404 Jeffery & ready to go.

Any one with experience or info????

It is the easiest way to build a 404 Jeffery.
Many have done it.
None are as ugly as mine, few are as accurate:



The last one I found was purchased used for $600 and became the 49-10.

You can use any long action Winchester M70 with a replacement RUM box, follower and spring.
I ordered one set of parts once from Winchester back in the Classic days.
Brownells might still have the magazine parts.


I have turned three of them into one each of:
.416 Dakota
404 Jeffery
49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010

With the too skinny, windowed box, they are make-do feeders,
but it works very well for the 404 Jeffery make-do.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So a 404-375 would be best in a pre 64
Thanks

No, better is the CZ 550 Magnum box, if striving for perfection, and that box length is required for use of the long-nose Walterhog bullets.

Huvius,
Your .416 Rigby (?) box is adequate for a 404 Jeffery.
What are the diameters of the 280 Ross head and rim on either side of the extractor groove, on real-life brass?
What is the inside width of the box on that Gibbs 280 Ross?
Magazine box length is not of importance because that is easy to fix within the action length size available, block the back, etc.

No perfect boxes yet except a CZ 550 Magnum in 404 Jeffery and a Pre-64 M70 in .375 H&H?

Did Jeffery get it right on any of the original Mausers they built from 1905 onward?
Maybe not.
No one is talking.