THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM AFRICAN HUNTING FORUM

Page 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11

Moderators: Saeed
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Cecil the Lion Killed by American?
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of Todd Williams
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by editor-ant:
Good Evening All.

I am posting this on all the relevant links on this subject, as I believe we have been able to gather information and fact, hopefully devoid of emotion circulating at present, and which I think will answer many of the questions being posed. Please visit www.africanhunteronline.com to see “Lion Conservation Under Threat - Cecil the Lion, the Facts”.


You might want to "check" that photo of Palmer with his "Trophy Elk" however!

shocker
 
Posts: 7366 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by editor-ant:
Good Evening All.

I am posting this on all the relevant links on this subject, as I believe we have been able to gather information and fact, hopefully devoid of emotion circulating at present, and which I think will answer many of the questions being posed. Please visit www.africanhunteronline.com to see “Lion Conservation Under Threat - Cecil the Lion, the Facts”.


Thanks for an insightful article. It clarifies a number of points. tu2


As Todd said. The trophy elk looks kind of odd. rotflmo
 
Posts: 575 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 05 March 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of 505 gibbs
posted Hide Post
quote:
I believe we have been able to gather information and fact, hopefully devoid of emotion circulating at present

Ant, the above is unacceptable and completely immaterial around these parts, take that "fact" horseshit somewhere else....
 
Posts: 4931 | Registered: 30 July 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of TREE 'EM
posted Hide Post
Facts are facts, and the fact is none of us on here are in possession of all the facts.
It makes my blood boil when people on this forum rush to judgement instead of letting the story unfold with real, credible facts.

Mr. Palmer, if you can hear me, you need to spend your next 50k on a good publicist to represent you in the media ASAP. If not to help your reputation then to help the hunting communities reputation collectively


All We Know Is All We Are
 
Posts: 902 | Location: E Central MO | Registered: 13 January 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Whatever the facts are, Cecil has become the new Bambi.


Full time professional trapper
 
Posts: 313 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 13 February 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Use Enough Gun
posted Hide Post
News Release
July 29, 2015
Contact: media@safariclub.org
For Immediate Release
SCI Suspends Membership of Hunter and Professional Hunter Involved in Death of Cecil


Washington, D.C. – Safari Club International (SCI) supports a full and thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe. SCI has imposed immediate emergency membership suspensions of both the involved hunter and his guide/professional hunter, and they will remain in place pending the outcome of an investigation.

Safari Club International condemns unlawful and unethical hunting practices. SCI supports only legal hunting practices and those who comply with all applicable hunting rules and regulations, and SCI believes that those who intentionally take wildlife illegally should be prosecuted and punished to the maximum extent allowed by law.

Safari Club International is a 501(c)4 corporation, has approximately 47,000 members worldwide, many of whom also hunt worldwide. Safari Club's missions include the conservation of wildlife, protection of the hunter’s rights, and education of the public concerning hunting and its use as a conservation and management tool.









Safari Club International – First For Hunters is the leader in protecting the freedom to hunt and in promoting wildlife conservation worldwide. SCI’s approximately 200 Chapters represent all 50 of the United States as well as 106 other countries. SCI’s proactive leadership in a host of cooperative wildlife conservation, outdoor education and humanitarian programs, with the SCI Foundation and other conservation groups, research institutions and government agencies, empowers sportsmen to be contributing community members and participants in sound wildlife management and conservation. Visit the home page www.safariclub.org or call (520) 620-1220 for more information

* * * *
 
Posts: 14095 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
The other thing in the article which "I believe" to be incorrect is the statement on 'quota transfer'.

I believe the practice is totally legal at the moment...at least if handled properly.

I do agree...that it should be stopped.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
Hunter/Conservationist

DSC Life Member
NRA Life Member
APHA Honorary Member

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans. – Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
 
Posts: 24653 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Interesting that both parks and safari operators of zim put this out together. I for one know that I have spent the last two days answering emails and talking with people about Cecil the Lion, lion hunting, and what's legal and ethical. These are from the 90% of people who are in the middle and willing to listen. This has blown up in a huge way and is now the new "Bambi" that will be the rallying cry for the anti's.


JOINT PRESS STATEMENT BY ZIMBABWE PARKS AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY AND SAFARI OPERATORS ASSOCIATION OF ZIMBABWE ON THE ILLEGAL HUNT OF A COLLARED LION AT ANTOINETTE FARM, HWANGE DISTRICT ON 1 JULY 2015 IN GWAYI CONSERVANCY BY BUSHMAN SAFARIS PROFESSIONAL HUNTER, THEO BRONKHORST.


Theo Bronchorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris is facing criminal charges (VIC FALLS Police CR 27/07/2015) for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015. The lion named ‘Cecil’ was well known and regularly sighted by tourists in the Main camp area of Hwange National Park.

It is alleged that the hunter connived with the Antoinette land owner, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu to kill the lion. Ongoing investigations to date, suggest that the killing of the lion was illegal since the land owner was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015.

Therefore, all persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.

Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management as the Regulatory Authority and custodian of all wild animals in Zimbabwe issues hunting permits and hunting quota for all hunting areas in Zimbabwe so that only animals on quota are to be hunted. In this case, both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt.

Both professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst’s licence number 553 who was involved in the hunt and the owner of Antoinette farm, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu are being jointly charged for illegally hunting the lion. The two are due to appear in court on Wednesday, 29 July 2015. Efforts are being made to interview the other professional hunter, Zane Bronkhorst, licence number 558, who was also involved in the illegal hunt.


The Professional Hunter Theo Bronkhosrt’s Licence has been suspended with immediate effect. The lion trophy has also been confiscated. The relevant stakeholders have been informed and are being updated about this matter.


The danger of civilization, of course, is that you will piss away your life on nonsense
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Baltimore, MD | Registered: 22 July 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of PWN375
posted Hide Post
Ant,

Great post. Well done.

Theo is a crook. I wouldn't hunt cockroaches with that guy.

Perry
 
Posts: 1128 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-

The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place."authority to hunt"

Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form

All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get

Any off take of animals be it for cropping,management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.

1.government hunting concessions
2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas
3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies

All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc

99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter.So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting.off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting,have the intent to hunt,look for,track stalk etc

Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck,hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form,but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!


1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.

2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc

3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.

4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.

5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.

6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.

Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas,with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners,moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments,and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degre our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.
 
Posts: 114 | Location: Africa | Registered: 29 July 2015Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Let's assume that the situation did not involve a lion but involved an elephant. And not just any elephant but it was Duke (who is dead now), one of the magnificent elephants in Kruger National Park. Duke lives in Kruger, is collared and is well known to anyone that is familiar with Kruger. Duke has been in Kruger since he was born decades ago. He is accustomed to seeing vehicles and people virtually everyday that are touring the park. One day Duke wanders out of Kruger on to an adjacent property . . . or perhaps Duke is lured out of Kruger to an artificial waterhole dug to take advantage of a drought in the Kruger area. * Do you believe it would be responsible for a hunter to shoot Duke?* Do you believe that a hunter shooting Duke is contributing to the long-term sustainability of elephant hunting?



I rarely post here my answer to the "Duke" question is a resounding NO if I knew that was a famous Park elephant accustomed to being around people. The trophy would not be the same to me and I would view it as only killing and not true hunting. If Palmer knew that was Cecil then he deserves all that is coming to him. Just like one idiot can F it up for everyone like the little d-bag in GA that gunned down those people in the church. Now the country is falling all over itself to erase any Confederate history or symbols.

As a note. I had a 50 yard shot at a nice legal male lion in the Niassa in Moz last year and didn't shoot. It was incredible to be that close and simply observe the great beast. BTW, he was wearing a collar but was still legal. Cutting a collar off would have ruined any sense of a real hunt for me.
 
Posts: 55 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 26 February 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-

The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place."authority to hunt"

Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form

All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get

Any off take of animals be it for cropping,management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.

1.government hunting concessions
2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas
3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies

All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc

99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter.So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting.off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting,have the intent to hunt,look for,track stalk etc

Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck,hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form,but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!


1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.

2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc

3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.

4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.

5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.

6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.

Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas,with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners,moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments,and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degre our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.


Great first post. I was concerned with what the attitude might be before i read this.

I wonder just how far up the food chain this goes?
 
Posts: 10044 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-

The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place."authority to hunt"

Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form

All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get

Any off take of animals be it for cropping,management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.

1.government hunting concessions
2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas
3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies

All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc

99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter.So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting.off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting,have the intent to hunt,look for,track stalk etc

Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck,hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form,but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!


1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.

2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc

3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.

4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.

5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.

6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.

Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas,with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners,moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments,and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degre our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.


Good post...thanks for doing it!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
Hunter/Conservationist

DSC Life Member
NRA Life Member
APHA Honorary Member

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans. – Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
 
Posts: 24653 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boarkiller
posted Hide Post
Excellent info
Funny how we live and die by myriads of government ( read Wildlife authorities ) rules and regulations that change like chameleon across counties, states and countries.
And Antis know it and love it, because they know it's a minefield for hunters a every
Wrong step gets blown out of proportions
I just had conversation with Hunter/friend and he told me hunting elephants is not cool a it is not a hunt because you just walk up on the. And kill them.
Wouldn't even listen to my argument.
So I called him prick and anti in camouflage.
He wasn't that good of a friend anyway.
It started over this Cecil thing in brew pub last night.

Funny how I actually stayed cool and he got hot and pissed. And he was always the one that wanted to poison all the predators in MT so they won't eat his elk, while I defended wolfs ( to a degree )


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...
 
Posts: 9932 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
having lived through two phases of governments changing from Rhodesia , to Zimbabwe... Sorry and for a brief few months when it was Zimbabwe-Rhodesia before independence in April 1980, we have seen the transition going from bad to worse...Moreno in the past 10yrs

Unfortunately it does go to higher offices..

Everyone seems to forget the current SOAZ chairman was at one time in business with "out of Africa"... Need I say more. He was convicted of externalising foreign currency, from hunts he conducted with OOA safaris.. He was fortunate in that by the time he was brought to book and ended up being convicted in a Zimbabwe court, the local currency had devalued so much, that the fine imposed by the courts was literally a few hundred us$ if my memory serves me correctly...for an amount of roughly $100k+

Quota transfer keeps rearing its ugly head!! It is happening, even with members of our so called esteemed associations, plain and simple, no matter which way you try look at or justify a quota transfer - it is unethical, it is scientifically not plausible ,and should. Be stopped immediately. Let's see how co operative the authorities are, as it takes funds out their pockets,coffers and who knows where else..

Unsustainably high quota's handed out to concession holders because of political partners or connections... Just look at once pristine areas like chirisa , chete, sapi Safari areas to name a few, reduced to wide open spaces devoid of the once teeming wildlife.

It's an absolute disgrace, even more so the fact that some of our so called Operators / professional hunters who are members of the local hunting associations were directly responsible for these areas demise.
One just has to look at the numbers, there are over 3500 hunters, guides, learner guides / hunters license holders registered/licensed with the Zimbabwe parks and wildlife authority, yet our so called esteemed associations have less than 350 members total... One has to wonder

An association is only as good as its members /base etc, look at the NRA is the USA ,they have some clout and are a force to be recond with... How do less than 15% of licensed hunters,guides etc become a force to be reconded with here?

At one time our local association approached the Zimbabwe parks authority and tried to get then to enforce / rule, that if you wanted to hold a valid license, you had to be a member of the local ass... Needless to say they got a frosty reception, quite rightly so too.

Membership of any association is purely voluntary , not compulsory .

No body sticks together, speaks with a united voice anymore. It's dog eat dog here, sadly in all of this the true conservationist get drowned out, or intimidated from various angles.
 
Posts: 114 | Location: Africa | Registered: 29 July 2015Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
having lived through two phases of governments changing from Rhodesia , to Zimbabwe... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...


Any post by a representative of any reputable governmental, non-governmental or other organization should be signed by the Rep. himself and include his or her title and position, contact information, website link and so on.

For one thing, it establishes their credibility and the fact that they do, in fact, represent said organization ... (this IS the internet, after all) ...
 
Posts: 861 | Registered: 17 September 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Frostbit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by SteveGl:
quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
having lived through two phases of governments changing from Rhodesia , to Zimbabwe... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...


Any post by a representative of any reputable governmental, non-governmental or other organization should be signed by the Rep. himself and include his or her title and position, contact information, website link and so on.

For one thing, it establishes their credibility and the fact that they do, in fact, represent said organization ... (this IS the internet, after all) ...


Translation for Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation: welcome to AR. Wink

Thanks for taking the time to post.

Cheers
Jim Wojciehowski
Retired and not representing anything.


______________________
DRSS
______________________
Hunt Reports

2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112
2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141
 
Posts: 6830 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
It will be interesting to see the email correspondence between the outfitter and Palmer if and when that comes out. I would give good odds that Palmer was far more complicit in this than some want to believe. Once (the bear) may be a mistake; twice (the bear and the lion) is a pattern. This notion that he was a poor, misguided soul is damage control. He and the PH were executing a plan. My guess is that Palmer and the PH are deleting emails faster than Hillary Clinton and destroying hard disks and cell phones faster than Tom Brady.


Mr. Jines, two occurrences of anything regarding human nature is not a pattern. You should be well aware to save your condemnation until facts are presented and not continue with your speculation. Sincerely you've provided ample ammunition for liberals to quote announcing you agree with them, in and out of context. I hope you'll reconsider your pattern, you have provided more than enough.
 
Posts: 316 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 August 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
Sport hunting is under attack certainly you can appreciate that fact. What this hunter did was wrong. Was wrong legally and in my view was wrong ethically. The longer we attempt to defend such conduct the less credible all of us are as hunters. If you choose to ignore his involvement in a similar instance in the not so distance past, have at it. In terms of arming the anti-hunters, I am quite confident that hunters defending and standing by Palmer do far more to undermine sport hunting than hunters condemning him and his actions.


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Great first post

quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-

The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place."authority to hunt"

Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form

All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get

Any off take of animals be it for cropping,management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.

1.government hunting concessions
2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas
3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies

All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc

99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter.So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting.off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting,have the intent to hunt,look for,track stalk etc

Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck,hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form,but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!


1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.

2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc

3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.

4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.

5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.

6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.

Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas,with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners,moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments,and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degre our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.
 
Posts: 882 | Location: Chico California | Registered: 02 May 2010Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Sport hunting is under attack certainly you can appreciate that fact. What this hunter did was wrong. Was wrong legally and in my view was wrong ethically. The longer we attempt to defend such conduct the less credible all of us are as hunters. If you choose to ignore his involvement in a similar instance in the not so distance past, have at it. In terms of arming the anti-hunters, I am quite confident that hunters defending and standing by Palmer do far more to undermine sport hunting than hunters condemning him and his actions.


May I suggest that awaiting judgment until all facts are presented is more of an allegiance to common sense than a particular person.
Just wondering, are you completely familiar with current Zim laws?
 
Posts: 316 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 August 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of The Artistry of Wildlife
posted Hide Post
I liked this...I will say tho' If anything was illegal pay the price. It's all 'rumors has it for now'.

https://ideas.aeon.co/question...someone-hunts-a-lion



Brigid Hains Society
Editorial Director, Aeon
The meaning of an individual animal

Among the reasons not to feel outraged about the killing of Cecil the lion are these two: he had a human name and he was a well-known tourist attraction. I say ‘tourist attraction’ instead of 'beloved lion’ because that hackneyed phrase seems to me a concept empty of meaning. How can a lion be wild and be 'beloved’ by people who saw him once from a safari jeep? You don’t earn the right to 'love’ a lion that way. Cecil was a wild lion who was habituated to humans, collared for a biology study, long-lived and good looking. All those factors have been offered as intensifiers of emotion in the reaction to his killing, but not one of them seems a good reason to care more about this individual lion than any other.

'Cecil’ isn’t the first lion to die when he ventured outside the Hwange National Park. In fact you could argue that a lion of his age has done extremely well to stay alive this long. In a study conducted between 1996 and 2004, 24 out of 62 tagged lions in the Hwange study area were shot dead by sport hunters. Each year around 250 lions are killed - legally - across Africa by trophy-hunters, most of them foreigners who pay staggering amounts of money for the privilege of flying home with a lion head for their wall. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? That’s a very complex question and the only simple answer is that twitter isn’t the best place to decide it. So here’s a start: there are two very different moral issues here which are being confused: the ugly death of a lion at the hands of a sports hunter on the one hand, and the conservation of charismatic predators in Africa on the other.

How do I feel, at a visceral level, about a hunter with a bow and arrow shooting a magnificent big cat; that intelligent, powerful, fierce animal then taking many hours to die, only to be decapitated and shipped to America as a trophy? Well, I don’t feel good. I can’t imagine doing it myself. It is a sad and grotesque end for such a magnificent animal. Still, wild animals come to sad and grotesque ends all the time, especially apex predators. Not many go gently. Canine distemper virus periodically kills many of the lions in Serengeti National Park - a horrible lingering death including grand mal seizures and encephalitis. Many lions die of starvation. When the male lions of a pride die or are killed by rivals, their place is taken by other males who routinely kill all the cubs in order to free up the reproductive potential of 'their’ lionesses. The general estimate is that half of all lion cubs die before the age of two, many from starvation, and only 1 in 8 males makes it to adulthood, as they are forcibly ejected from their maternal pride. Wild lions live with porcupine quills in their faces, intractable bacterial infections, and the constant threat of violence from their own kind. Not many nature documentaries are brave enough to follow a 12 year old lion like Cecil to his slow and painful natural grave. So while it’s an important question whether it is right for a hunter to kill, deliberately, a healthy, adult male lion in a fashion that ensures a painful and lingering death, let us not be blinded to what kind of end awaits such an animal otherwise.

More importantly I’m not sure that one can feel disgusted at the death of this one lion while not protesting the killing of bears in the United States. In California alone there is a hunting quota of 1500 black bears per year. That’s 6 times as many lions as are killed in the whole of Africa each year. The black bear population of California is exactly the same size as the African lion population, yet is deemed to be sustainably harvested at 6 times the rate of African lions. Bears are routinely hunted with dogs in the US (yes that is the origin of the term 'hounding’) although some states, including CA in 2012, have banned this practice. 1 in 10 black bears killed by hunters in California are killed with bows and arrows - in 2013 that was around 100 individuals. None of those bears were 'beloved’; had human names, or were tourist attractions. None of their deaths sparked outrage. Black bears are intelligent, magnificent, fierce animals. Bear hunters skin and behead their catch (why else would they hunt?) and thus they furnish the lounges and dens, just as a lion hunter does. A bear killed with an arrow is unlikely to die a clean and polished death. A bear wounded with an arrow even less so. So why are there over 300,000 tweets about Cecil the Lion and none about Californian black bears? The answer is obvious - it’s a viral moral outrage storm, and it obscures the second moral question at stake here: the conservation management of African lions.

The African lion population has declined steeply in recent decades to its present level of somewhere between 23000 and 39000 individuals. The terrible reality is that charismatic apex predators do not flourish anywhere in the world where they co-exist with large, dense human populations. Tigers in India, grizzlies in the US, wolves in Europe, sharks off the coast of eastern Australia, cougars in Florida, none of them will find it easy to survive without vigorous management and protection. Complete quarantining of predators from people is possible only in protected areas (national parks and the like) but such areas will never provide enough habitat for large wild populations to be sustained. Large predators need territory to follow their prey through the seasons and they cannot be contained, short of fencing national parks. Nor can they be domesticated enough to be guaranteed never to kill livestock and even humans. So there must be compromises reached in how these predators live in proximity to human populations outside of national parks, because conflicts with humans are the most important causes of mortality for lions in edge zones.

One reasonably promising model is to develop buffer zones around protected areas in which wildlife can live, if not being strictly protected, and in Africa these often take the form of hunting concessions, Wildlife Management Areas, game controlled areas and so on. These are not empty places, but are full of people as well as wildlife. Buffer zones around national parks are often intensely contested lands. In East Africa they are - at best, for wildlife - home to traditional pastoralists, whose livestock practices (mobile, seasonal grazing at low population densities) have enabled them to co-exist for centuries alongside a rich biota of wild animals. But all too often, land that abuts national parks is needed by farmers whose populations are expanding, and whose land is already poor in financial return. The great conundrum for African governments and their advisors is how to balance these competing needs for resources. In an ideal world, local peoples have both economic use of their land and economic incentives to foster healthy populations of wild animals on that same land. So far, this is extremely rare. There are only a few ways for that to work and in East Africa it’s usually some combination of pastoralism, tourism, and hunting concessions. For species like lion and elephant, who are dangerous, who kill local people, and are destructive of their livelihoods (eating, respectively, livestock and crops), the incentives need to be particularly strong to offset the costs. That is where hunting licences can play a role. As everyone now knows, the cost to an American tourist of hunting big game in Africa is stupendous. Right now, very little of that tends to flow back into local communities. I’ve seen myself the armoured vehicles and machine-gun toting guards of the Game Controlled Areas around Longido in northern Tanzania. They are leased to Arab hunting companies and in constant conflict with local Maasai pastoralists. But in other parts of Africa, notably Namibia, hunting concessions are in fact run by local communities, who benefit substantially from them. And these include those expensive, rare, lion hunting licences. Most African states only allow the off-take of adult male lions, who are after all reproductively the least valuable individuals. By contrast, in Kenya, where trophy hunting was banned in 1977, and traditional pastoralism largely dismantled by privatisation of common lands, national parks are surrounded, cheek by jowl, with farms growing vegetables and flowers for the European market. And Kenyan wildlife populations have declined by up to 70% since then.

The liberal conscience may revolt. Isn’t trophy hunting the crudest replay of imperial violence? Aren’t we thrown back to Teddy Roosevelt, killing hundreds of creatures in a rampage around southern Africa at the turn of the century? Isn’t it shameful to see an American toting a dead leopard with a big smile on his face?

Maybe. But surely the generous response is to think not only of the tourists who 'loved’ a lion; and of the lion himself; but also to think of the black bears of California, and the struggling pastoralist communities of East Africa: of all the living beings implicated in this web of global transactions, before we jump to moral outrage about this one death.
 
Posts: 657 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 03 August 2010Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RichardAustin:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Sport hunting is under attack certainly you can appreciate that fact. What this hunter did was wrong. Was wrong legally and in my view was wrong ethically. The longer we attempt to defend such conduct the less credible all of us are as hunters. If you choose to ignore his involvement in a similar instance in the not so distance past, have at it. In terms of arming the anti-hunters, I am quite confident that hunters defending and standing by Palmer do far more to undermine sport hunting than hunters condemning him and his actions.


May I suggest that awaiting judgment until all facts are presented is more of an allegiance to common sense than a particular person.
Just wondering, are you completely familiar with current Zim laws?


I have maintained all along this is an ethical failure in my view . . . I am not aware that hunting ethics should vary in Zim from elsewhere. If you see the ethics differently, I would suggest you consider whether you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:


Unsustainably high quota's handed out to concession holders because of political partners or connections... Just look at once pristine areas like chirisa , chete, sapi Safari areas to name a few, reduced to wide open spaces devoid of the once teeming wildlife.

It's an absolute disgrace, even more so the fact that some of our so called Operators / professional hunters who are members of the local hunting associations were directly responsible for these areas demise.


HHK and Graham Hingeston come to mind.
 
Posts: 168 | Location: Somewhere in a sale-barn | Registered: 07 June 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Apparently ethics do differ from culture to culture and one hunter to another..24 collared lions were shot and the standard practice was to turn back in the collar for research purposes. Its also stated that its unlikely the hunter would know whether there was quota available for lion or not and had a proper license
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by RichardAustin:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Sport hunting is under attack certainly you can appreciate that fact. What this hunter did was wrong. Was wrong legally and in my view was wrong ethically. The longer we attempt to defend such conduct the less credible all of us are as hunters. If you choose to ignore his involvement in a similar instance in the not so distance past, have at it. In terms of arming the anti-hunters, I am quite confident that hunters defending and standing by Palmer do far more to undermine sport hunting than hunters condemning him and his actions.


May I suggest that awaiting judgment until all facts are presented is more of an allegiance to common sense than a particular person.
Just wondering, are you completely familiar with current Zim laws?


I have maintained all along this is an ethical failure in my view . . . I am not aware that hunting ethics should vary in Zim from elsewhere. If you see the ethics differently, I would suggest you consider whether you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.


So now your opinion is the ethical standard. Interesting.
 
Posts: 316 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 August 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
Stated by whom, another person that chooses to post using a pseudonym? When I know who the person is I will decide what credibility to assign to their remarks. Roll Eyes

If your view is that shooting a collared animal (other than for PAC or the like) is acceptable, I am sure I will not convince you otherwise. I would hope that you would at least consider the implications on the sport before you do so.


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Artistry of Wildlife:
I liked this...I will say tho' If anything was illegal pay the price. It's all 'rumors has it for now'.

https://ideas.aeon.co/question...someone-hunts-a-lion



Brigid Hains Society
Editorial Director, Aeon
The meaning of an individual animal

Among the reasons not to feel outraged about the killing of Cecil the lion are these two: he had a human name and he was a well-known tourist attraction. I say ‘tourist attraction’ instead of 'beloved lion’ because that hackneyed phrase seems to me a concept empty of meaning. How can a lion be wild and be 'beloved’ by people who saw him once from a safari jeep? You don’t earn the right to 'love’ a lion that way. Cecil was a wild lion who was habituated to humans, collared for a biology study, long-lived and good looking. All those factors have been offered as intensifiers of emotion in the reaction to his killing, but not one of them seems a good reason to care more about this individual lion than any other.

'Cecil’ isn’t the first lion to die when he ventured outside the Hwange National Park. In fact you could argue that a lion of his age has done extremely well to stay alive this long. In a study conducted between 1996 and 2004, 24 out of 62 tagged lions in the Hwange study area were shot dead by sport hunters. Each year around 250 lions are killed - legally - across Africa by trophy-hunters, most of them foreigners who pay staggering amounts of money for the privilege of flying home with a lion head for their wall. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? That’s a very complex question and the only simple answer is that twitter isn’t the best place to decide it. So here’s a start: there are two very different moral issues here which are being confused: the ugly death of a lion at the hands of a sports hunter on the one hand, and the conservation of charismatic predators in Africa on the other.

How do I feel, at a visceral level, about a hunter with a bow and arrow shooting a magnificent big cat; that intelligent, powerful, fierce animal then taking many hours to die, only to be decapitated and shipped to America as a trophy? Well, I don’t feel good. I can’t imagine doing it myself. It is a sad and grotesque end for such a magnificent animal. Still, wild animals come to sad and grotesque ends all the time, especially apex predators. Not many go gently. Canine distemper virus periodically kills many of the lions in Serengeti National Park - a horrible lingering death including grand mal seizures and encephalitis. Many lions die of starvation. When the male lions of a pride die or are killed by rivals, their place is taken by other males who routinely kill all the cubs in order to free up the reproductive potential of 'their’ lionesses. The general estimate is that half of all lion cubs die before the age of two, many from starvation, and only 1 in 8 males makes it to adulthood, as they are forcibly ejected from their maternal pride. Wild lions live with porcupine quills in their faces, intractable bacterial infections, and the constant threat of violence from their own kind. Not many nature documentaries are brave enough to follow a 12 year old lion like Cecil to his slow and painful natural grave. So while it’s an important question whether it is right for a hunter to kill, deliberately, a healthy, adult male lion in a fashion that ensures a painful and lingering death, let us not be blinded to what kind of end awaits such an animal otherwise.

More importantly I’m not sure that one can feel disgusted at the death of this one lion while not protesting the killing of bears in the United States. In California alone there is a hunting quota of 1500 black bears per year. That’s 6 times as many lions as are killed in the whole of Africa each year. The black bear population of California is exactly the same size as the African lion population, yet is deemed to be sustainably harvested at 6 times the rate of African lions. Bears are routinely hunted with dogs in the US (yes that is the origin of the term 'hounding’) although some states, including CA in 2012, have banned this practice. 1 in 10 black bears killed by hunters in California are killed with bows and arrows - in 2013 that was around 100 individuals. None of those bears were 'beloved’; had human names, or were tourist attractions. None of their deaths sparked outrage. Black bears are intelligent, magnificent, fierce animals. Bear hunters skin and behead their catch (why else would they hunt?) and thus they furnish the lounges and dens, just as a lion hunter does. A bear killed with an arrow is unlikely to die a clean and polished death. A bear wounded with an arrow even less so. So why are there over 300,000 tweets about Cecil the Lion and none about Californian black bears? The answer is obvious - it’s a viral moral outrage storm, and it obscures the second moral question at stake here: the conservation management of African lions.

The African lion population has declined steeply in recent decades to its present level of somewhere between 23000 and 39000 individuals. The terrible reality is that charismatic apex predators do not flourish anywhere in the world where they co-exist with large, dense human populations. Tigers in India, grizzlies in the US, wolves in Europe, sharks off the coast of eastern Australia, cougars in Florida, none of them will find it easy to survive without vigorous management and protection. Complete quarantining of predators from people is possible only in protected areas (national parks and the like) but such areas will never provide enough habitat for large wild populations to be sustained. Large predators need territory to follow their prey through the seasons and they cannot be contained, short of fencing national parks. Nor can they be domesticated enough to be guaranteed never to kill livestock and even humans. So there must be compromises reached in how these predators live in proximity to human populations outside of national parks, because conflicts with humans are the most important causes of mortality for lions in edge zones.

One reasonably promising model is to develop buffer zones around protected areas in which wildlife can live, if not being strictly protected, and in Africa these often take the form of hunting concessions, Wildlife Management Areas, game controlled areas and so on. These are not empty places, but are full of people as well as wildlife. Buffer zones around national parks are often intensely contested lands. In East Africa they are - at best, for wildlife - home to traditional pastoralists, whose livestock practices (mobile, seasonal grazing at low population densities) have enabled them to co-exist for centuries alongside a rich biota of wild animals. But all too often, land that abuts national parks is needed by farmers whose populations are expanding, and whose land is already poor in financial return. The great conundrum for African governments and their advisors is how to balance these competing needs for resources. In an ideal world, local peoples have both economic use of their land and economic incentives to foster healthy populations of wild animals on that same land. So far, this is extremely rare. There are only a few ways for that to work and in East Africa it’s usually some combination of pastoralism, tourism, and hunting concessions. For species like lion and elephant, who are dangerous, who kill local people, and are destructive of their livelihoods (eating, respectively, livestock and crops), the incentives need to be particularly strong to offset the costs. That is where hunting licences can play a role. As everyone now knows, the cost to an American tourist of hunting big game in Africa is stupendous. Right now, very little of that tends to flow back into local communities. I’ve seen myself the armoured vehicles and machine-gun toting guards of the Game Controlled Areas around Longido in northern Tanzania. They are leased to Arab hunting companies and in constant conflict with local Maasai pastoralists. But in other parts of Africa, notably Namibia, hunting concessions are in fact run by local communities, who benefit substantially from them. And these include those expensive, rare, lion hunting licences. Most African states only allow the off-take of adult male lions, who are after all reproductively the least valuable individuals. By contrast, in Kenya, where trophy hunting was banned in 1977, and traditional pastoralism largely dismantled by privatisation of common lands, national parks are surrounded, cheek by jowl, with farms growing vegetables and flowers for the European market. And Kenyan wildlife populations have declined by up to 70% since then.

The liberal conscience may revolt. Isn’t trophy hunting the crudest replay of imperial violence? Aren’t we thrown back to Teddy Roosevelt, killing hundreds of creatures in a rampage around southern Africa at the turn of the century? Isn’t it shameful to see an American toting a dead leopard with a big smile on his face?

Maybe. But surely the generous response is to think not only of the tourists who 'loved’ a lion; and of the lion himself; but also to think of the black bears of California, and the struggling pastoralist communities of East Africa: of all the living beings implicated in this web of global transactions, before we jump to moral outrage about this one death.
jbrown@easternapplicators.com
 
Posts: 55 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 26 February 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RichardAustin:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by RichardAustin:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Sport hunting is under attack certainly you can appreciate that fact. What this hunter did was wrong. Was wrong legally and in my view was wrong ethically. The longer we attempt to defend such conduct the less credible all of us are as hunters. If you choose to ignore his involvement in a similar instance in the not so distance past, have at it. In terms of arming the anti-hunters, I am quite confident that hunters defending and standing by Palmer do far more to undermine sport hunting than hunters condemning him and his actions.


May I suggest that awaiting judgment until all facts are presented is more of an allegiance to common sense than a particular person.
Just wondering, are you completely familiar with current Zim laws?


I have maintained all along this is an ethical failure in my view . . . I am not aware that hunting ethics should vary in Zim from elsewhere. If you see the ethics differently, I would suggest you consider whether you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.


So now your opinion is the ethical standard. Interesting.


Not "the" simply "mine".


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
well considering you were ready to hang a man because of a report by the BBC..before anything was really known ill take this anonymous poster at face value for now..he or she seems to have some credible information and speaks a whole lot more knowledgeably than any of the news you have been reading.
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
You're now down to not believing what is written by whether one uses their real name on here or not..but you'll believe everything that the media writes regarding this story. got it...he still may be guilty but in your world he would already be swinging from a tree and we would never know
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
Sorry, on an Internet blog I will wait to see who is posting and why they are posting before I take it as gospel. May be credible, who knows. You want to accept it all as factual without knowing the source, be my guest.


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
My point was you are quick to accept some information that comes for extremely questionable sources but when someone posts something against your message it becomes suspect.
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
So go back to hiding and making sure hunters fly under the radar so the general public tolerates you. What a way to live. Begging for their approval

W
That coming from someone that posts using a pseudonym. Is anyone holding you back from starting a website, opening a Facebook page or otherwise publicly taking up the defense of hunting?


As long as everything is nice and quiet so you don't have to worry about whether you can trophy hunt or not. Everything will be just fine. I do my conservation by donating and letting the experts fight and represent me. Much like the NRA. But I definitely don't give a shit if antis like what I do or not. And as far as the general public they go back and forth with a flip of a channel. They will have long forgot about Cecil the lion as soon as the next Cosby story breaks


So once again, reingageging your circular logic, if something is legal albeit shady, screw the hunting public and what it does to us cause I am gonna do what I damn well please.

Do I have that correct? Or perhaps I am being obtuse?

Jeff
 
Posts: 2707 | Location: FL | Registered: 18 September 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Who's it shady to..you?

It seems its fairly common practice to shoot collared lions in Zim and turn in the collars for research. So if it was legal then it appears shady to some and not so much to many others
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
and no..your just being an ass
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MJines
posted Hide Post
Help me appreciate why Palmer deserves the benefit of the doubt:

* A hunter with a tremendous amount of international hunting experience, including at least one lion, and who apparently likes to see his name in game record books decides to book another lion hunt.
* He books the hunt on a property that was illegally seized from its owner. Perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* Turns out, there is no quota for lion on the property booked. Perhaps he was ignorant of this fact too.
* The property is adjacent to a National Park known to be home to a number of exceptional male lions. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He and the PH bait the Park boundary. Again, perhaps he was ignorant of that fact.
* He shoots a collared lion that is an exceptional lion. Once more, perhaps it was just ignorance.
* He and the PH track the lion for 40 hours and kill it.
* They skin the animal in the field and leave the carcass. Then someone in the party tries to destroy the collar. Well, perhaps he was blissfully unaware of this latter fact too.
* Turns out, the hunter pled guilty seven years ago to illegally killing a bear in a area without quota, moving the bear to an area where there was quota, reporting it killed in the latter area and then lying to investigators looking into the matter. Must just be serendipity.

Sorry, I have a hard time under the circumstances believing this fellow was a blissfully ignorant victim and had no complicity in the matter. Call me a cynic. Give the guy his day in court, but he is not going to get any sympathy from me. He has seriously set back sport hunting at a time when we were already losing the battle.


Mike

"Living dangerously is twice blessed -- it blesses the moment with elation; it blesses the after-day with warm memories." ~Major P.J. Pretorius

"The man who declares that he is not afraid of elephants is either an ignoramus or a liar." ~Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke

". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan

"Danger not only adds zest to all forms of sport, it also tends to sharpen the faculties and to bring into focus all that is to be seen and heard in a forest. Danger, which is understood, and which you are prepared to face, does not in any way distract from pleasure." ~Jim Corbett

". . . he wasn't aware of it then, by the time he left he had been infected by a disease known to many born outside the continent as the call of Africa -- an incurable disease indeed. ~ Peter Stiff

 
Posts: 16699 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
and no..your just being an ass


I think you have pretty well labeled yourself here.

Jeff
 
Posts: 2707 | Location: FL | Registered: 18 September 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I don't know how this affects Palmer's veracity but he settled a sexual harassment suit brought by one of his receptionists for $127,000. This from an AOL news line.

465H&H
 
Posts: 5686 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Not everyone accused of sexual harrassment is guilty, but many settle anyway rather than pay the lawyers. It's standard practice in corporate settings NEVER to be alone with a female subordinate for this reason.

It's not clear whether the hunter knew the hunt was shady. Quota is normally opaque to the client, he relies on what he is told by the PH and/or operator. Even if he inquires, there may be quota today in an area and not tomorrow. The hunter can only be sure of three things: the PH has a licence or not; there is a TR2 (hunting licence) or not; the area is a legal hunting area or not. (The TR2 is not issued at the time of booking, it's normally issued just prior to the hunt, sometimes on the first day of the hunt, so there is no way to check this in advance).

Quota swapping is an old story unfortunately. It's a sin but it's usually not pursued unless the authorities have a hard-on for the operator.

It's not illegal to hunt a cat using a drag bait. It's not clear that the cat was "lured out of the park", we all know animals move back and forth particularly at night. If the drag commenced in the park that's illicit. If they merely dragged the boundary road that's not illegal or even unethical. How many elephant hunts on the Gona boundary have been conducted successfully and with bravo's from this audience? There is a reason that the Safari areas surround the National Parks. The Park is a reservoir and a refuge (at least it's supposed to be). Controlled hunting in the adjacent areas is all sound management practice.

It's not illegal to hunt at night on private land, or to use a light. We all know that. (It is in a Parks' Safari Area). 90% of cats are killed at night over bait with a light.

It's not illegal to use a bow or crossbow on private land, and poachers do not use bows in Zimbabwe even though the press would like you to believe that it's somehow sinister to use one. It's a bit stupid to shoot a lion with a bow or crossbow though, particularly at night.

There may be an issue regarding doing business with the landowner. The farms in the Gwaai conservancy are pretty much all ill-gotten gains, and the landowner is probably on the black list or should be.

Sadly none of this matters. The fact is the 'social media' crowd have gotten a hold of this and the dentist is toast. He may as well retire. Lion hunting may also be toast in both RSA and Zim, as it is in Bots and Zambia, as USF&G people will bow to the baying masses and their political houndsmen.

I am not saying this is all legit and ethical. At least some of it stinks. But from 1000 feet, this is what happens when you confiscate private game farms from good stewards and hand them over to political cronies. I don't hear the 'social media' types working themselves into a frenzy over that ecological disaster.

Bottom lion: get your Lion this season. Sad because from personal observation the lion hunting in Zim is actually better now than it's been for a long time.


Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC
BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris
Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns
VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear
 
Posts: 2352 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 
 


Copyright December 1997-2019 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia