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Again with that, J.D.? Come off it. No one in his right mind buys a bespoke rifle with a high price tag until he's had a chance to learn about it and ideally look at one and at least handle if not shoot one. That’s why I started this thread. To get input from people who've had actual EXPERIENCE with the Soroka rifle. I have got precious little of such input, although I have got some, and it has been uniformly good and I have appreciated it. Both of the writers, Ron Spomer and fellow AR member TT, who've handled and shot the rifle are singing its praises, and TT has bought one based on his direct experience with it. By their accounts, again based on actual EXPERIENCE with the rifle, it's a fine, bespoke rifle, well made of top grade materials, including modern steels and exhibition-grade walnut, and embellished with fine engraving. Plus, they report that it handles well and shoots very accurately. And Glenn Soroka himself has spent considerable time and patience on this thread describing the practical difficulties he has encountered in designing and manufacturing a modern day, improved Farquharson, as well as his long term goals and business plan for the company he founded. All great information, which is useful to me and which should be useful to any other potential buyer. Again, that’s why I started this thread. Although at this point I almost regret having done so. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I am in the market for a nice SS rifle and have looked at Blaser K95 and Kreighoff Hubertus , and also contacted Glenn Soroka to look at his rifle. Glenn was good enough to bring the rifle to my house for viewing and handling [YES i live in New Zealand] . His rifle is beautiful to say the least ,you dont have to be a rocket scientist to recognise the quality and finish of this rifle and would strongly suggest that if you are considering purchasing a high end SS [ which what it is ]you should definitely check out the SOROKA in the flesh the pictures never do justice to firearms of this quality , i think any opinion should be with-held until you have actually handled one .And yes i am refining details with Glenn to have a SOROKA 07 of my own . Regards Allen | |||
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Hey JD and others, I think you may have mis-interpreted what I tried to communicate in one of my last posts when I said that I had a medium term goal of making and selling 50 Soroka 07 rifles. Somehow you seem to have interpreted that to mean that the making of 50 rifles of this quality is not a "business". Well I can assure you that making one is a hell of a business, so why you would think that the prospect of making 50 isn't a "business" is beyong where my head can go. For me it was a way of saying that I am committed to making that many because for me that will be a significant achievement. If I am "done in" having achieved that then I will hang up my boots and call it quits. If there is a resurgence in high end single shots and the demand is there then of course I will continue. Before I under took this excercise I had significant discussions with Wal Winfer, the author and co maker of the dozen or so Farquharson Rifle Co rifles that were made and sold approx 25 years ago for U.S.$12,500 each, ($12,500 25 years ago, and they were cast. Do the maths on that for current equivalent pricing ) and Mr Allan Hall, about their falling block experiences. They both told me there was no market and no money in making falling block single shots. They both emphasised the no money aspect repeatedly. I know from firsthand experience that Martin Hagn agrees wholeheartedly with this fact. So for those that are "concerned" as to how and where my actions are made I will happily confess the how and why's. Having received the good oil from those who have been in the industry for a while I decided to spend my money on making rifles - not on buying high end CNC equipment. What is more important? - I decided the finished product rather than owning the CNC machines upon which they were made. Given the small manufacturers that have gone by the way side spending people's deposits to survive and not then supplied, I have focussed on making the finished barrrelled actions, buying a decent supply of high end wood and some finished/engraved rifles, so when someone pays a deposit I can show them their barrelled action and wood in the flesh (which is in the U.S) and not the machine that it would be made on (which is in N.Z). This decision was made quite easily given that the machines that make my receivers EFFICIENTLY cost around $500,000 each to buy here (and there's 2 of them). It is exactly the same business structure that Martin Hagn uses and other boutique manufacturers use, and is especially appropriate when getting larger quantities made. I have recently received an order for 4 rifles from very well known, well established and respected dealer of fine firearms in the U.S.A. The owner handled them at the SCI show at Reno and was extremely impressed to say the least. He has also made it very clear that he will do what is required to help in anyway he can to help me gain acceptance into the U.S.A market. So J.D, we have a big name that is "putting up" for 4 rifles, a 7x57, a 300H&H, a 300 Win and a 375H&H. Perhaps that will help allay some of your concerns about people buying? I will not publish their order for that would be inappropriate. I have many emails from some of the biggest names in the U.S gun industry praising the quality of my rifle and the effort made in producing them. Unfortunately I am not at liberty to share them with the public because they have "arrangements" or the magazines they represent get paid tens of thousands of dollars annually from these large companies and therefore they cannot be seen to be praising my rifle above the products from those with the BIG advertising dollars. Its not they don't want to, its that they cannot afford to run the risk of offending the money source. There are of course the editors that guard "the source" most juduciously. I understand their position but it helps me not. So contrary to what the old Beatles song says - Money, it seems, can buy you "Love". Anyway, here's a copy of an email I received a few days ago from a well known and published single shot expert of international fame, (which helps counter some of the "wisdom" from some of the less than supportive voices). I will not publish his name for obvious reasons- " Dear Mr. Soroka, Having seen your website, and the current on-going discussion of your rifle on the Accurate Reloading Forum, I find that your efforts are extremely praiseworthy. Plus, what nobody seems to have so far mentioned on the forum, the existence of the option which you offer, of a visibly accurate, but improved, reproduction of what is probably the most graceful of all single shot rifles, and the most pleasant to handle and shoot, MAY just help to preserve un-modified those few remaining examples of original Gibbs-Farquharsons, instead of us seeing them butchered into things that they were never intended to be. I have been fortunate to have owned seven original Gibbs made weapons, including four original Gibbs-Farquharsons, which I have restored and used and enjoyed, ranging from a Metford percussion Long Range Match rifle, down to a Gibbs-Farquharson-Metford rook rifle in .380" Long Rook, to a Gibbs-Farquharson-Metford Best Quality Long Range Match rifle in .461" No. 1 Gibbs, and two full-bore Gibbs-Farquharson sporting rifles. I just wanted to give you a private word of encouragement in your ongoing efforts. Keep up the good work. Regards, ....." Anyway, for those of you that live in the N.E of the States you will be able to lay your hands on a Soroka 07 in the next few weeks and decide for yourself if they are what you hope or expect them to be. I hope this post will have plugged a few holes in the meantime (of the realities of making high end, small, no, tiny market oriented single shot rifles in this modern age). Cheers Glenn | |||
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I would like to know what would be necessary to buy one of your rifles and have it shipped here to me in Vancouver, BC. I have only spoken with Martin Hagn twice, but, am on excellent terms with his former partner and Hagn action user, the brilliant gunmaker Ralf Martini. So, given your experience here in BC with Martin, I would imagine that you could supply a rifle to a Canadian customer without too much difficulty. I am very impressed with what I have seen/read here from you and if Hagn used one of your actions, that is all the recommendation it needs for me. The idea of a "flanged" .300 Super with a 25" bbl. and irons really appeals to me and if I could get a reliable source of brass, I am very keen to see if I can get one. | |||
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Hi Dewey, The rifle that Martin had on his table at the ACGG show, was finished by Martin and is in 300 H&H rimless (pic posted already in this forum by Trax?). It has a H&H style flip over ivory bead banded front sight mounted on a 26" barrel, which can easily be shortened to 25" if need be. It is currently with Martin's engraver of choice, in Saskatchewan, being engraved in an old Westly Richards pattern I really like. This rifle is already in Canada so its just a question really of whether you can live with a rimless case for this rifle to be of interest. The extractor on my rifles is at least double the shear area of a Ruger #1 and is extremely reliable. I have tested in on loads that the average person wouldn't go near and it has yet to fail. However if you have your heart set on a 300 super I can accommodate, it will just be a case of exporting a rifle from the U.S.A or New Zealand, whichever is easier. Kynoch are making 300 super brass and loaded ammo now so there shouldnt be a problem with supply. Perhaps it would be a good idea to email me at info@sorokarifle.com to discuss further in private as it were. Also more than happy to ring you if need be. I can send pics of the engraving pattern etc if of interest. Thanks Glenn. | |||
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Are more photos available? This example might well represent a pinnacle of rifle building. | |||
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__________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Just to clarify- we dont need to dance around the mulberry bush on this one for too long... Thats right because 4 fulltime employees should be able to make 80 rifles per year. And for the definition provided of a company by me, I dont think there is enough demand to support that many people. So, hopefully somewhere in between there is some middle ground. But after all things are considered making 10 - 30 high end rifles a year is still a business.
Not immediately, but I should be able to post some pics in a week or 2 of another rifle engraved in a traditional Gibbs pattern by Lee Griffiths that should suffice in the meantime. | |||
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Not dancing, just clarifying. 4 employees minus 1 bookkeeper/secretary/parts orderer/foreman/scheduler/packager/shipper/janitor = 3 actual workers x 2000 hrs/yr = 6000 mhrs divided by 80 rifles = 75 mhrs/rifle including the time necessary to hand-work the action from the just-machined. Last time I checked, truly bespoke rifles were taking professional smiths in the neighborhood of 150 mhrs each not including engraving. A few far less, others far more, depending. Many of them use the (unpaid slave,grin) labor of their spouse to make up the difference, though. So, for a number of reasons, I agree that you made the right decision. Also, as I have done several times in the past, I wish you luck! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Guys, As I promised a couple weeks ago, I intended to post a range report on my Soroka Farquharson in 300 H&H. I was supposed to go to the range on Sunday, two weeks ago. Alas, the winds that day were steady 25-35 MPH, gusting to 50 MPH. I opted to cancel the trip and reschedule for yesterday. My son Jeff drove down from Tucson and joined me for the session. Unfortunately, it was not a good day for any serious range work. Again, the reason was high and gusty winds. The same reason that we are having such troubles with fires. We decided to go anyway, and do our best in spite of the winds. Attached below is the best group I could get. It is a very good group, particularly considering the winds. However, there were a few other groups with two-shots practically touching, but the third shot an inch or more out. That was no fault of the rifle, but rather the shooter being pushed around at the bench. All groups were fired with Federal factory ammo loaded with 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets. We finally called it a day when the winds blew our target out of the frame. The rifle is pictured elsewhere in this thread. It is my rifle, not a test gun, that I ordered from Glenn Soroka several months ago and took delivery on a few weeks ago. TT  | |||
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Congratulation's......that is a nice looking rifle and the 300H&H is a great single shot caliber (great caliber period).....that long tapered case just slides right into the chamber. | |||
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Last I long heard, Wal was still working with metal & wood,.. doing house extensions.(and good ones at that  )
Echols & Co. have about 3 fellows involved in the build process, and would not be achieving anywhere near 30 rifles per year. Still, a successful business. | |||
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In regard to provenance, It's true, Soroka does not rank with the big British London gunmaker names. Now,has anyone here heard of Michael Lingard? He is situated in the small Scottish village of Friockheim(pop.800) His shop holds the appointment to HRH the Prince of Wales.Among other pieces, the Prince has commissioned a .243 rifle for his son Prince William for his deer stalking.-Michaels shop turns out about six rifles per year. Imagine that,the future King of England opting for rifles built in the rural region of Scotland by an virtual unknown. so what you say Idahosharpshooter/"Mr.Speudo Provenance",.. has the Royal Prince lost his marbles?...  | |||
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Heres the full exerpt from the Shooting Times article..... "In the little village of Friockheim near Brechin in Angus, you might be surprised to see the prestigious royal warrant on top of the old Clydesdale Bank. The building is now home to the gunmaker Michael Lingard, who makes rifles by appointment to HRH The Prince of Wales. Among other pieces, he made a .243 rifle, commissioned by the Prince, for his son Prince William, who is an accomplished deerstalker. Michael's workshops produce a steady stream of five or six new rifles a year, plus another four shotguns. A large percentage of his work is taken up with repairs to rifles, especially the stocks. Michael travels extensively throughout Europe to find the finest quality walnut blanks for his international clients, who demand the highest standards for their Best guns". Provenance is quality over time. It is often relied on by those that have more money than knowledge. "Early adopters" can pick up the bargains that have yet to be discovered by the rich. | |||
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"Richy Rich"[ISS] did discover Soroka at SCI, said it was an very nice rifle and very well made. ISS believes any singleshot [provenance or not] at such cost, is immensley overpriced. He has less appreciation for it, because its a copy of an pre-exhisting design, rather than something of orig. individual ingenuity. Yet he prides himself highly with a Searcy, all of which are copies of pre-existing designs. Pompus provenance,prestige or catchet alone, does not assure survival. Jaguar was saved by massive cash influx from Ford combined with improved design. Harley Davidson were saved from extinction by gov.imposed import tarrifs and massive financial bailout. Holland & Holland was started by a tobaconist/hopeful musician[his father apparently was an organ builder]. Its current major shareholder is an famous womens costmetics/perfume group. Soroka is not identical to an orig. Farq. it has been improved, Just as Jaguars have been improved,and all for the better. When Chanel technologically upgraded the H&H workshop in the 1990s,H&H designs were also improved & reintroduced in the process. | |||
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Well I learned a lot about some great guns during this pissing contest. I'll be happy to have any of these rifles. Heck I'd be happy with a lowly Ruger #1. I guess that makes me single shot trash aye  I fell in love with a Farq Holland and Holland 450 NE. I had the pleasure of shooting. Such a beautiful rifle made me grin with admiration and its beauty was sublime. It became one of my dream guns and still is although I would be ecstatic to have a Bailey Bradshaw too. What do you say we let bygones be bygones. I am founding the Single Shot Shooters Society or SSSS. Any joiners? Not to be confused with lightweight drinkers  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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a 7-page pissing match with red herrings being trolled all over the place? Geez, guys, if you don't like the product, or don't like the price, call the cops! Maybe they can prevent you from being FORCED to buy one. On the other hand, if you DO like the product and the price is okay with you, I suggest you buy one ASAP. One thing which is true about the gun business is that very few manufacturers remain under the same ownership, with the same products, for more than a very few years. | |||
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Thanks, TT. That group would get you bragging rights on a bright and windless day! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Ok, if you say so....
If your all about provenance and your precious H&H brand, why is it they no longer produce the Holland & Woodward falling block receiver. The first example was completed in 1895. The bulk sold between 1899 and 1901, the last in 1926. total of about 140 rifles. They prefer the convenience of Ruger and Hagn. Jaguar & HD survived via substantial economic bailout. If it was up to provenance to save them, theyd be well dead & buried. Rich, why is it you have Searcy and not an Holland*Holland double? H&H produces its own design sidelock and its barrels are made inhouse. Searcy copies other receiver designs and out sources his barrels from pacnor. | |||
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Rich I don't have a dog in this fight but I must pull you up on the above. As much as I like what Bailey Bradshaw is doing, single shots, doubles, to say he has "provenance and a reputation for quality" is stretching it IMHO. How long has he been building them ? How many guns has he made ? Unless informed otherwise, I would put him in the same boat as Saroka. Has produced nice guns, is producing nice guns, is likely to continue to produce nice guns, long term provenance and a reputation for quality to be decided but looking good so far. Just my HO. . . | |||
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In all fairness, 500N is correct. Glenn and I have been at this game about the same amount of time. He may even have me by a little time. I do appreciate the sentiment though. Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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Im gonna make a few comments OT on Jaguar Motor Cars here. I bought a spanking new Jaguar XK-E from the dealer In Salem, Oregon in 1964. I paid $6,050 for it. At the same time I could have bought a used '57 Chevy BelAir IN PRISITINE CONDITION for $300 minimum, $500 maximum which would have been a really good car for the time. (I had owned such a Chevy a few years prior, so I know they ran well and dependably.) That Jag was a POS. Something MAJOR expensive broke on it every month or so, with lots of little things quitting in between. When I drove it to Graduate School at the University of Oklahoma that year, I couldn't get it properly serviced any closer than Austin, Texas. They SOLD new Jags in Oklahoma City, but their service department at the dealership wasn't equipped or trained to do tune-ups. When I finished grad school at OU 16 months later, and went to work for the Department of the Navy back in the Seattle area, I needed a reliable car. So I traded the Jag straight across for a used VW. (Some resale value retention, eh?). As for their "provenance", they were a mid-level British car equipped with low-quality Lucas electrics....sort of a British DeSoto, with much poorer quality accessories. (Lucas is widely known among British car owners as "Lucas, the Prince of Darkness"). The thing that saved Jaguar was not British auto maker quality similar to the Rolls/Bentley cars. It simply isn't there. What saved them was Ford, American electrics, etc., and a mssive cash bailout. That's their provenance today ...a former British/American Ford, but still not as reliable. That's MY opinion. YMMV My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Well considering most of the above applies or applied at one time to most or all British Gunmakers - INCLUDING Holland & Holland who made their INITIAL name off the back of Scott's. Outsourcing is / was a traditional method of manufacture for certain parts of a gun and in some gun makers name, the whole thing was outsourced. And as for copies or copying, nearly all Double Barrel guns in the world have some sort of copying in built into them, especially the copying of the traditional English boxlock. So based on the above, I don't think us lovers of English guns can hold a candle to Searcy, Soroka, Bradshaw or any of them if they did copy/modify/improve or even just keep the exact same design. . | |||
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I dont really have a problem with companies that outsource,copy,modify,improve, etc Rich/ISS however, has issues with Soroka doing the same thing. Very few premium manufacturers produce everything inhouse. -Hagn does not manufacture his own receiver design. -Rigby had to get a barrel from Austria to rebarrel Harry Selbys .416 bolt rifle. Rigby had mauser build magnum length actions for them. -David Mackay Brown is the only Scottish builder that makes a gun from start to finish in the country.He believes his only true competitors of that nature are Purdey, Holland & Holland and Boss, because they also do all the work in-house. - Piotti supplies key components to several premium rifle builders around the world. I dont need the provenance of an genuine H&H built sidelock to be content, an Piotti built H&H sidelock design would do me just fine! Piotti .470 N.E. SCI auction ..using Austrian chopperlump barrels...I could live with that. Purdey Perrazi/Perugini & Visini | |||
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The arguments on here about the Soroka and the arguments on the DR forum re the Sabatti's are somehwat similar, BUT the big difference as I see it is this. Sabatti is trying to mass produce cheap double rifles where they have to sell lots to make money. now to those of us who know what goes into making one, we thought "uh oh", what corners have been cut to do this. We got shouted down by others until the evidence presented itself. Now, Soroka is making a new gun but the difference is, he's not aiming for the bottom dollar market, of almost certainly a high quality on the basis that he is going to be trading on reputation whereas Sabatti is trading on price. . | |||
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Rich, you use the provenance of brands like H&H to put Soroka down, when are you actually going to financially support such high provenance rifle brand names? Surely H&H, Purdey or Boss&Co would be willing to fill an order for you. Why did you instead opt for an cheaper [outsourced production] copy? You talk of your safaris to Africa, Why not go on one of H&Hs high provenance safaris ..im sure all the orig H&H equipped English Gentry in camp, would have an snide chuckle to themselves, when they see an colonialist pull an Searcy from his guncase. | |||
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Again, nice group, TT.  And that's a peach of a rifle, too.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Running an successful business can often entail spending extra time & effort outside of the normal workings hrs that typical working class folk like you are accustomed to.
How much provenance did Searcy have when you purchased his Red Label conversion some 20yrs ago? Searcy hasnt done anything ingenious, over the yrs he has gone about copying other designs/rifles, and in some cases has compromised them. Orig. Rigby Bissel rising bite rifles have the better chopper lumps....When Searcy reverse engineered the RBRB,he gave it monoblock. Chopper lumps remain an option[$5k]. He also offers two version of the RBRB, his "Searcy version" at $45k[+$5k for chopper lump],.. and an exact copy of the RBRB, at $65k. Same with Searcy copy of H&H sidelock[$25k monoblock], Chopper lumps only available at $40k upwards. Clearly his first priority is to build rifles to a pricepoint, over authenticity and superior design/construction. Im sure your happy with your "working mans" or "poor mans H&H" Searcy, but it still has long way to progress in terms of gunnmaking provenance. The fact that Searcy is "all American" means diddly squat in the big wide world of gunmaking. I can assure you that Peter Nelson did not leave Purdey[actioner/foreman] & HartmannWeiss[1971-1989],.. to open his own shop and begin making doubles based on the..... Ruger Red Label,... nor did HartmannWeiss. Thomas Boss worked under his father William Boss, for Joseph Manton until 1816. He started his own Co. but most of his work was done for Purdey at the time. James Purdey was an blacksmiths son, also named James,He got into gun making cause his sister married an gunmaker, Thomas Hutchinson. He later worked for Manton to learn making better guns. | |||
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Whether you have a fine British/European rifle of high provenance, or something equally as good or better, from a small shop in Canada or North America etc, dont be dissapointed if you discover that some of the work was done by less than fully qualified persons/apprentices. Its quite OK for them to do some of the more time consuming/less critical processes of the build. I seriously doubt theres some great master gunsmith employed to manufacture the ERA/NECG sight fittings that your smith orders & final fits to your barrel. Searcy like several other high grade rifle builders,use ERA sight components. You dont need an great gunmaker to CNC high quality rifle components. CNC maufacturers can produce fine rifle actions & also numerous other non gun related products/applications. http://fzh-gmbh.de/cms/website.php | |||
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Nice to know Searcy answers his phone. However, some rifle makers dont expect one to take time off to see their workshop. They are curteous & sensible enough to show their premises online[no secrets]: http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/workshop.php ...makers of the Hagn receiver. Rich, from your experience, how does the Searcy shop compare? | |||
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The following casts no dispertion on Searcy, just an observation. Taking someone to court is only worth it if the monetary loss can be proved. Now how many Single Shots have been sold and what is the profit out of them ? Is it really worth spending XXX,XXX thousand $ defending that ? And if you reckon Siberia is the only one IN YOUR EYES who has "at least two written statements as slanderous and defamation of character in public", I'd have a look at what a few others have written. On a slight tangent and not making any comment on Soroka Plenty of companies put names on things made by others. I have a fair amount of input into the making of things, I don't actually make them on the CNC machine but I test them, ask for changes / improvements / modifications and then go through the process again. Nothing wrong with that. Weatherby do it all the time, that good old USA company. In any case, it's about time someone got you lot a room somewhere else. . | |||
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First of all I figure that IF, and I say IF very advisedly, Searcy actually 'stole' the Hagn design, then why hasn't he been sued? Probable answer is that the patentable portions of the design were not stolen at all. The US and Canada are not China and Pakistan, we have trade agreements. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Soroka. Second of all I also figure that siberia is a troll, no more and no less. His own lack of understanding of design, fabrication and fab shops (not to mention basic Economics 101) is VERY obvious and by all rights should be embarrassing to him. Plus, he's also a potty-mouth. About 9th-grade level in most milieus, it indicates basic inability to communicate effectively. Third of all I also figure that Glenn got his action components fabbed by a job-shop somewhere and then arranged for their fit and finish. He may have done the F&F himself or he may have farmed it out, it doesn't matter to me 'cause the action 'is what it is' no matter who did the bench work. It's also pretty obvious (to me anyway) that Glenn himself hasn't done the assembly and finish work on any of the completed rifles since he hasn't claimed the credit. Again, perhaps a moot point. At least he arranged for the CNC code and the financing so the product IS his rifle no matter the number and identity of the various actual workmen. Will the Soroka still be produced in a few years? I hope so, but I believe its chances will depend largely upon its reception by the SCI's oneupmanship crowd and their buds. After all, if they'll pay that much for a Winchester in a plywood stock then Glenn oughta be able to TRIPLE his price! I wish Glenn all the luck in the world but my next disposable $15K will go for a new roof for my home(grin) ($10K) and purchase of all the components for a new custom single shot rifle (or 2) including scope and extensive engraving by a master ($5K). Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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JD, There might be 50 different ways of machining something and they all work, but there might be 51 and that last one maybe the one that makes for far more efficient, consistent and better off the machine finish, better tool life, faster etc, than the other 50 previously tried. That was all that was intended by the comment re programming and not "the secret code". | |||
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Correct, its not a silly idea, but it really upset some here when I said Martin and Ralf have used apprentices on their rifle builds.
However, I am accused of being an charlatan trouble maker and poseur, who doesnt own any top grade custom rifles. Pestering gunmakers?, I was simply admiring the rifles on Ralfs table, when he encouraged/insisted I pick them up, and to pull his takedowns apart... With his encouragement I did so. He said thats what they are transported here for,and to make the most of the oportunity. In further discussion about rifle buiding, he said, Martin and himself employed apprentices in their shop for the more laborious less skilled tasks. Dewey should have spoken to Ralf by now, but has not bothered to respond to me or the forum, regarding that matter. Maybe he cannot bear the truth of the answers he got. and to the best of my knowledge, this is still the only current web address for Ralfs shop. .http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/ ..I really dont mind when such people foolishly shoot their mouth off before knowing the facts. | |||
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I believe HARRE(NZ) also organised the purchasing and importation of raw materials from the U.S.A and used CAMEX to manufacture his model49/M70 type receiver, which was about the most dimensionally accurate bolt action receiver ever produced in the gun industry. Its smart to contract such well equipped and capable facilities. Id rather they do that than attempt/struggle to machine actions to high precision on some lesser machinery at a riflesmiths workshop. Harre M49 receivers:  | |||
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ISS If you want to keep crapping on, start a new thread on wanting pictures of whatever it is you want and leave this thread to those that want to appreciate and discuss IN OUR EYES, fine guns, in this case the Soroka Single shot. Also posted on the other thread. | |||
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what ever happened to Brian Harre and his action ? | |||
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Last I heard Brian was doing an Military contract. Better for business than putting up with whining working class tight ass tyre kickers, like those that annoy people here.... | |||
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 pg4_2_ by siberia308, on Flickr HAGN Action  P4187310w by siberia308, on Flickr SEARCY action Just to make sure you or Butch dont miss the side by side comparisons of the 2 actions. Give those milk bottles you've got strapped to your face a polish and have a good long look at these 2 actions and tell me one significant difference. Just 1. Are these actions for all intents and purposes the same- True or False? Look kinda look vaguely similar dont they? Now we all know that the Hagn action was only patented in Europe so legally there was no breach of patent to maufacture or sell in the U.S.A, and it probably had expired by the time this action was made anyway. So there is no intellectual law preventing anyone from copying the design. But having said that, there isn't any law to stop anyone from banging their best friend's wife or husband either. (Which is a little strange when you think about it). However, just because there isn't a law against it, doesn't mean that it's kosher either, does it? There is statute law and there is moral law. But as 500N pointed out there has to be a loss of some sort. And is using someone else's design without their express permission a form of theft, legal or moral, even if not legally protected? An interesting question. Would the public at large think any less of a company that takes someone else's design, even though technically legal? Because if the public do think less of a company that plagiarizes (legally steals) a design and subsequently purchases less of a product, then what losses could be claimed by that company, because the losses are a result of this exposed truth? Another interesting question. Now ISS, if Butch is a little annoyed with this expose then you might find he gets a little dis-enchanted with you as well because I am sure he is smart enough to deduct that if it wasnt for you and your pig-headed ranting in using Butch as some sort of "gunbuilder benchmark" to be aspired to, none of this would have been brought up in the first place. Perhaps you should fund his law suite? | |||
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Didn't seem to worry people when AYA in particular (with the Holland Royal) copied actions. In fact, the first AYA's were the best, what cost them was not the copying but the accountants that took over and QC suffered so everyone knows the first one's are far better than the others. And since the British Boxlock has been copied world wide, no one really GAF. . | |||
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