Rich, we pay the US price converted into NZ Dollars, currently around NZ$18,000.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Fourteen and a half thousand Dollars is a lot of cash to invest in an unknown.
Rich

Cynical view Rich.

Do you really think people go to the trouble of building something of this quality
and it not work. It's not a Sabatti DR !!! LOL

No difference to buying a DR from someone OS and having it shipped here.

I didnt really want to chime in on this thread, however after being made aware of its existence by Tom Turpin, I thought it appropriate that in case anyone has concerns about back up service (in the highly unlikely event of a failure) that I should respond. I have 2 'smiths in the States that have a bunch of spare parts and the know how to replace any items that may need it, NECG and Wyoming Armoury. Both very competent and both Guild members.

In addition to the comments made by Siberia, the other person of note that has purchased an 07 is the well known Aussie writer - Col Allison, which is the rifle on the Soroka website. Ron Spomer has also indicated he is also going to put his hand up for one which will make 3 for 3, reviewers buying an 07 after testing.

I guarantee my rifles to shoot MOA or under. So far with 30 cal mags around half that seems the norm. My 300 win shoots .5" consisitently and easily with quite a few loads. They are easily accurate enough for a hunting rifle.

I think its only fair to have a very close look at what we are buiding and then compare to what others are making for similar cost. Also bear in mind that one is getting a bespoke (and very complex shaped action). There are a multitude of compound curves that are very tricky and time consuming to machine and hand file, which is undoubtedly why one one else has taken on the task of making Gibbs styled Farkies again.

Cheers Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Fourteen and a half thousand Dollars is a lot of cash to invest in an unknown.
Rich

Cynical view Rich.

Do you really think people go to the trouble of building something of this quality
and it not work. It's not a Sabatti DR !!! LOL

No difference to buying a DR from someone OS and having it shipped here.

Well, Bertram went to a lot of trouble and expense merely to make a largely inferior product. I've attempted to use their brass in 3 different calibers and have had ~ 20% rejection rate due to out-of-spec dimensions and fold enclosures within the brass sidewalls.
Bertram has US dealers and distributors but I got no joy from 2 of them.

Daniel Fraser went to a lot of trouble and expense to make and export their little rook rifle action, and it's a real POS. Thad Scott almost certainly lost a bundle on THAT one!
Regards, Joe

We are talking items worth a couple of $$$ verses $18,000. In any case, Bertram has never espoused to be a high quality product. He didn't want them to last for ever.

Don't know about the Daniel Fraser rook rifle action. Can you post or post a link to any info ? PM me if you want.

And That Scott - now that is a name at the top of the scrupulous dealers list. NOT.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
We are talking items worth a couple of $$$ verses $18,000. In any case, Bertram has never espoused to be a high quality product. He didn't want them to last for ever.

Don't know about the Daniel Fraser rook rifle action. Can you post or post a link to any info ? PM me if you want.

And That Scott - now that is a name at the top of the scrupulous dealers list. NOT.

.

To the logical mind, the price alone isn't any guarantee of quality. You can spend a lot of money polishing a turd but it is still what it is. Not saying anything negative about the Soroka rifles, I'm sure they're splendid, BUT they are still a relatively unknown quantity in this hemisphere.

Re the Fraser Highlander, one of the best descriptions I've seen is in Frank de Haas' A Potpourri of Single Shot Rifles beginning on page 29. Thad bought the Fraser company and its name, and then went into a deal to import the actions and rifles along with their build components. The little action is very attractively styled, just as cute as a button on the outside but apparently a disaster inside. Cape Outfitters of Cape Girardeau Missouri was the other principal in the import/distribution deal. Both principal owners are dead now.

Re Thad Scott as a dealer, I first dealt with him back in the '70s and have known him ever since then, his old place in Indianola is an hour North of me. While I found Thad to be somewhat of a legend in his own mind on a personal level, I know that's also true of a lot of us (grin). I've never seen or heard of anything but the most honest and ethical dealings from him or with him but that's JMO. I DO know that he faced his certain end with grace and fortitude; may we all show such good qualities at our own ends...

Like I said, no stones thrown at Soroka, I'm sure that their products are fine. BUT, it's more than somewhat naive for anyone to assume that a fine outward appearance is a guarantee of inner quality, especially at such long range.
Regards, Joe

Believe me, "expense" barely made it into the equation with the Frazer rook rifles. Except to the end user.
Do not confuse these with Fraser rifles of old. They're not even close...

Guys,

I picked up my Soroka Farquharson on Monday and am very pleased with it. I have a ranges session planned for Sunday to see how she shoots.

As I promised, attached are a couple photos of the rifle.

TT

Glenn,

I can tell a lot about your rifles from the picture of the trigger group detatched. The fit and finish required for such an arrangement is on a VERY high level. In my opinion, you've created something special.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Believe me, "expense" barely made it into the equation with the Frazer rook rifles. Except to the end user.
Do not confuse these with Fraser rifles of old. They're not even close...

Exactly my point, they looked like a million dollars on the outside but were trash inside. A classic example of polishing a turd, but the appearance fooled lots of folks initially.
Regards, Joe

TT and Glenn, that is a beautiful rifle. Congrats to you both.

And the design features, including the trigger mechanism, the firing pin and the stock through-bolt, are definite improvements over the original Farquharson design.

Not to mention the advantage gained by the use of modern steels.

I'm fully aware that, with a little work, an original Gibbs-Farquharson will get the job done.



But I do like this Soroka 07.

Thanks for the information.

Thanks Bailey and Mike.
Amongst other things, there certainly is a bit of fiddling to get the trigger plate to mate to the receiver without gaps. And am glad there are some others that appreciate the dream of combining the old Gibbs styling with new design and materials. Makes for one hell of a polished turd....... (grin), not cheap one either.... (again)

You don't see them write it's a POS but I call it damn it with faint praise and you do see that quite often - if you know how what to look for.

.

Rich,
There is an old Latin legal Maxim I think you should ponder - Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus
- False in one thing, false in all things.

I do not wish to be rude but there are so many inaccuracies and non-relevant points in your monologue that you have failed to tempt me into a suitably detailed response. If you re-word your post and make the questions and or comparisons valid I will give you an honest answer. But you having made such an aggressive post I feel I have no choice but to respond for future readers of this post that may not be familiar with your tone.

I am new to the "inside" of the U.S gun industry re advertising and articles. None of what you describe echos my limited involvement thus far. The magazines (and writers) I have had contact with have been excited at the prospect of being given the opportunity to write about a NEW rifle. The comments made have been " I have just got back from the Shot Show and it's just the same old stuff being packaged differently. It's great to have the opportunity to write about something innovative and new". I haven't had to pay a cent for any articles written about my rifles. Additionally, I still own both the rifles that have been examined by reviewers.

A gentleman that came by the booth at Reno that had just finished writing a book on British high end rifles. He was so excited and enthused by the rifles I had on display that he made an appointment for a long standing technical director of one of the big English firms to come and view my rifles. The technical director was very appreciative of what he saw and made the comment that if the Soroka 07 he had in his hands had his company's name engraved on it that it would sell for U.S $55,000.

For some reason you have chosen to pogo on the price of my rifles and not: the high end British makers (way more money), Hagn single shots (same money), Rolex watches, Gucci handbags, Rolls Royce cars, Custom made Harley's and so the list goes on......and on.

I will go so far as to say that it takes approximately 150 man hours of labour to finish one of my rifles from cnc'd components, additionally one has to buy in or factor in the custom made receiver, barrel, exhibition Turkish wood. And of course the advertising which as you know is expensive. Just do the maths. And having done it - you will have answered your own question.

Rich, I too am curious. Curious to see if you have the intelligence, dexterity of mind and hand, and fortitude to design, manufacture and finish a beautifully crafted work of art, with one or two barrels, (I dont really mind which) that shoots bug holes, to put in my hands, so that I may be in the position that you are now trying to put me in. Once you have done that Rich I will gladly sit with you and talk about what my rifle is worth and why. Because having done that - you will then be in a position to comment....

Glenn

www.sorokarifle.com.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
soroka,
These things have a way of working out in the end. In five years the market will either embrace them as a welcome upper end offering, or choose to vote with their wallets.
regards,
Rich.

What's the price of the bare action?

BTW IMO most gun writers for most magazines are less than honest in their reviews of products, especially guns. I've written a few articles myself and have run into the 'editor's option' of not publishing anything negative about any product. It's virtually impossible to find an honest review of anything expensive these days.

I, personally, don't care a fig for the wood or the engraving or the various embellishments on any rifle made for exhibition, that stuff is all smoke and mirrors for the great unwashed public. Anyone can spend a fortune on externals, what about the basics? I could take an H&R Handi-Rifle and spend a year's income on stocking and engraving it but it is still what it is.

So, what's the price of the bare action?

How is it better than a Hagn? Or for that matter, a Ruger? Not saying it's NOT better, just looking for comparative facts that will give more than just an opinion based upon price and embellishments.
Regards, Joe

Well said, I agree.

I guess I would say that any criticism is premature.
The way I see it is that the original Farq. is a wonderfully simple design and a visually beautiful action. Not without its faults though.
So, if a modern maker, ANY maker, wants to bring their modern interpretation of the original to market, more power to them!
I don't care if it has the Soroka name or the Holland and Holland name on it. If it is a high quality rifle in fit, finish, materials, design and execution then the maker has every right to ask any amount he wants for it. Then they, and the rest of us can see down the road if the product is a success or not at that price point or if either an adjustment in build or pricing is warranted.
I commend Soroka for making the attempt in any event.

Also, comparing the Soroka to a Sharps is a poor example.
There are many firms making Sharps replicas at all price points but few making a decent Farquharson at any price. IMO, the difficulty for Soroka is that they are putting the introductory price at or a bit higher than what an original Gibbs Farquharson costs. May turn out that a "working" model without the engraving or deluxe wood, but with the same mechanics would be a better seller at half the price and serve the purpose of establishing a base market and garnering some visibility to markets other than the very high end.

In my original post, I asked for input from those with actual experience with the rifle.

Actual experience.

That is a great thing about AR. Folks share their experience.

Some, however, simply indulge in baseless criticism.

I believe a good term for it is "bloviating" and it is an unfortunate fact of internet life.

I don't get it, but there you have it.

Huvius, I agree with you that the original Gibbs-Farquharson design has its flaws. Not too many and not too bad, but the design can be improved. That is what particularly interests me about Glenn's new rifle.

The Soroka 07 offers definite and real improvements to the original Gibbs-Farquharson design, and I mean specifically the trigger, the firing mechanism and the through-bolt stock. Yet it retains the essentials and the beautiful lines of the original Gibbs-Farquharson action, which in my view, as the owner of one, can't be topped.

TT, please don't let any of this put you off re: your follow up report. I'm looking forward to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Actual experience.

That is a great thing about AR. Folks share their experience.

Some, however, simply indulge in baseless criticism.

I believe a good term for it is "bloviating" and it is an unfortunate fact of internet life.

How very true and it is all too prevalent.

We frequently overvalue name brands and especially overvalue old brands. This becomes apparent when we talk about them as shorthand for quality, even to the point of talking about a brand being more important than quality. ("If it isn't a Colt, it's a copy")

Quality and pedigree are vastly different things.

Now, I learned something today from Idaho about the firearms industry. But this: "Somebody needs to mention to them that there is not a modern made single shot rifle that should retail for MORE than a good double rifle of the same vintage," needs to be examined. Chapuis makes doubles starting around $5,000 and top-end singles for over $10,000.

Lastly, I am not a falling-block guy usually, but the curves on the Soroka have me examining that. I wish the OP luck if he gets one.

Soroka 07, Receiver. by soroka07, on Flickr


Soroka 07 Block up by soroka07, on Flickr


Soroka 07 Quarter Rib. by soroka07, on Flickr

Finally figured out how to post a pic....
Anyway some pics of a finished Soroka 07 receiver without the wood cloak.

My action whilst looking like a later model Gibbs Farquharson is completely different inside. It uses a striker (firing pin) that is in-line with the bore that is powered by a chrome silicone coil spring (like a bolt gun). This gives extremely fast lock time and reliable ignition. The design also allows for unlimited dry firing which many single shot designs abhorr. The trigger is fully adjustable for both engagement and weight. It breaks like glass.

Every single component in this action is either CNC'd or wire cut. All the major components- receiver, trigger plate, underlever, quarter rib are CNC'd from Boehler P 20 vaccuum re-melted billet bar stock or billet 8620, the block from 17-4 PH stainless, a couple of minor items, safety button and bar from 4140, the internal links and other components EDM wire cut from from 420 stainless ground plate.

All the internal workings, extractor, extractor cam, cocking bearing, trigger are mounted on the trigger plate like the original detachable trigger plate Gibbs which means that one can dis-assemble this in a minute or so by undoing 2 screws. With a screwdriver and a 4mm punch one can strip this action easily in camp or even the field.

The cocking lever only rotates 32 degrees, as opposed to say a Ruger which is 55 degrees. It therefore requires slightly more effort to cock than the Ruger, but not offensively so, just a bit firmer. When operated it feels like an extremely high quality safe being closed. The extractor will work with both rimmed and rimless cases and is essentially a copy of the original set up.

There are many features that you cannot see, e.g. the inside of the under lever is machined with a concave compound curve that mates perfectly with the convex curve on the front of the trigger guard. The triggerplate is fitted to a machined recess in the underside of the receiver, and the hand filed to fit perfectly without gaps.
The barrels are contoured with a full diameter ring of steel left on them approx 5" ahead of the receiver, the sides of which are machined (and then hand filed) away, after headspacing and indexing, leaving a integral lug at 6 o'clock for the forend to attach to and another at 12 o'clock for the quarter rib to locate on. This quarter rib recoil lug significantly reinforces the rib attachment- the load is taken up by the lug and not solder or screws. Additionally there is no way the forend can fall off.

I have taken no short cuts whatsoever in design, material selection, or manufacturing process. It has been made without compromise. I wanted to make the best single shot ever and this is the end result. The action weighs 2.55 lbs.

This isnt a fibreglass copy....
Its the "real deal".

But as has been already pointed out that's for the market to decide.

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
This isnt a fibreglass copy....
Its the "real deal".

But as has been already pointed out that's for the market to decide.

So, how much for the basic action alone?

BTW I like most of your description, hope you do well in your endeavor!

But I'd still like to know the price for a bare action. I and many others who like to do, and are capable of doing, their own work will be very interested indeed.
Regards, Joe

Mike,

Not to worry. I'll give a report sometime after my range visit on Sunday.

Joe, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember in my discussions with Glenn that he will not be selling just actions. Since he's posting here, he can correct that if I'm wrong.

As to the other discussions, I'm reminded of something a very wise man told me one time. He said, "It's far better to let people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

TT

To date I have not sold bare actions simply because I dont believe people would be happy to pay what I need to make it worthwhile. I recently spent quite a bit of time with Martin Hagn in B.C. Martin has always loved the Farkies and he asked me if he could build a rifle on one of my barreled actions to display at the ACGG show in Reno. I said yes and furnished him with a barreled action and a semi inlet stock. After completing the rifle he told me that my actions require approximately double the hand filing time to one of his actions. He couldnt believe the quality of the machining he saw. He kept saying "Who would believe that ze best machinists in the world are from New Zeealand?" Which was pretty amusing to hear from a die hard Germans lips.

As you will no doubt be aware his actions dont have a seperate triggerguard, it is intergral with the underlever. So for starters there is another whole component, and quite a complex one at that, that needs to be made and then carefully mated and hand fittted to an 07 receiver.

Anyway, as you probably know Martins actions sell for $3000.

I have however been considering simplifying the design by eliminating the machined pocket that the trigger plate fits into. This would mean that the triggerplate alone would be the underside of the receiver. I wouldnt look particulary different from current production. the trigger plate would only be as wide as the guard all the way forward to the receiver where the block recess is, and would then flare out to form the bottom cover of the action to the main hinge pin. However this would simplify the machining and finishing time.

I could also look at the possibility of also simplifying the trigger guard to cut down on additional machining time. But then it wouldn't look like a Gibbs.

So a Hagn takes half the man hours to finish and costs approx 65% of what my action costs to CNC. Simplifying the design would probably reduce both by say 10%. So knowing that, what would you be prepared to pay for a simplified as above action, alone? It would still require significantly more time than a Hagn to produce.

This question can be taken to be rhetorical or not. But feel free to comment or make any suggestions as you may wish.

Cheers

Glenn

P.S. Please this question is not an invite to inform me about the Hagns reputation or history or mechanics. Having spent a month with Martin, I know the Hagn action inside out, back to front. As an internal hammer design the Hagn is unquestionably the best and most intelligently designed single shot ever. However, I prefer an in-line striker layout and that required a completely different internal design. In addition I like the Gibbs styling.....

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
After completing the rifle he told me that my actions require approximately double the hand filing time to one of his actions. He couldnt believe the quality of the machining he saw.
I'm kinda confused here, can you elaborate? Seems like these statements are somewhat contradictory, no?

But feel free to comment or make any suggestions as you may wish.

I prefer an in-line striker layout and that required a completely different internal design. In addition I like the Gibbs styling.....I agree with both sentiments.

Sorry to hear that you won't be selling actions, and sorrier still to see that your costs are so high in comparison.

That leads me back to the question of just exactly why, if your machining is indeed so superior, is your cost so high and your hand-filing time so substantial? Especially when we consider that a number of strictly custom single-shot rifle action builders are marketing their extremely excellent and award-winning actions for half your cost or less?

Have you analyzed your cost structure to determine just exactly where your costs are so top-heavy? Labor, materials, transportation, compliance, adminstration, taxes, 'shrinkage', etc? There are known and accepted percentage parameters for these costs; if you haven't looked at these comparisons, perhaps it's time you thought about it....Good luck.
Regards, Joe

Hi Joe

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
After completing the rifle he told me that my actions require approximately double the hand filing time to one of his actions. He couldnt believe the quality of the machining he saw.
I'm kinda confused here, can you elaborate? Seems like these statements are somewhat contradictory, no?

Basically what sets a Farkie apart from just about any other action out there is the multitude of compound curves (e.g. under lever, trigger guard) and interrupted surfaces, (like main pin bosses). What this means is more time on all fronts. Much more time to CNC a good final finish to then hand file. When a CNC is cutting compound curves, the final cut takes a very long time because the step over is very fine. These surfaces then need to be hand filed and then linished.

Just look really really closely at the shape of a Gibbs compared to any other action you can think off. I am not aware of any commonly known receiver that has anything like as many complex curves. And its all those curves that cost the money- unfortunately. Look really carefully and critically at a Hagn action and then mine. The Hagn is a cake walk to make and finish comparatively.

quote:

That leads me back to the question of just exactly why, if your machining is indeed so superior, is your cost so high and your hand-filing time so substantial? Especially when we consider that a number of strictly custom single-shot rifle action builders are marketing their extremely excellent and award-winning actions for half your cost or less?

What award winning single shot actions are you referring to? The only hammerless falling block actions I am aware of are the Ruger, Hagn, Dakota, Miller, and Bradshaw.

The sad fact is that Farkies are probably the most expensive single barrelled action to manufacture. Correct me if I am mistaken. This is why no one else has actually started making them again, other than George Gibbs in England. Their price for a bare gun with plain wood is 12,000 British pounds, which is about U.S $19,000. Good wood, engraving and quarter rib extra. And you still have all the design faults of an original. Hmmm...

If a less expensive option is what you desire then I would buy a Bradshaw action in a heart beat. As far as I am concerned Bailey is to single shot afficonados in the U.S, what Mother Theresa was to the "Untouchables" in India. The guy is a damn saint. Designing and machining from scratch a falling block single shot action for $1500.00 is a holy act as far as I am concerned.


I guess I could sell fully machined, assembled and functional actions that need finish filing to those that have the necessary skill to complete them.

Many things to ponder.....

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
Hi Joe
What award winning single shot actions are you referring to? The only hammerless falling block actions I am aware of are the Ruger, Hagn, Dakota, Miller, and Bradshaw.

The sad fact is that Farkies are probably the most expensive single barrelled action to manufacture. Correct me if I am mistaken. This is why no one else has actually started making them again, other than George Gibbs in England. Their price for a bare gun with plain wood is 12,000 British pounds, which is about U.S $19,000. I guess I could sell fully machined, assembled and functional actions that need finish filing to those that have the necessary skill to complete them.

Many things to ponder.....

Actually I wasn't limiting my statement to hammerless actions, but since this seems to be a desired feature....

Ruger isn't hammerless, it has a concealed hammer. The Hoch is one of the true hammerless actions and has won many, many benchrest and Schuetzen awards over the years, ditto the Miller-de Haas. Admittedly, both these actions are about as attractive as a 2x4 and the Hoch is no longer advertised so I can't put them in quite the same class as yours, but they hold many, many accuracy records. Another true hammerless action is the Sharps 1878 Borchardt, now being sold for $2K-$2.5K or very slightly more. There are/were a few more out there but I don't keep up with them as much as I used to do.

Re the price of any newly-made UK high-end arm, well, all I can say is that IMO anyone who pays that price is foolish indeed. IMO there is no way, repeat NO WAY that their quality and accuracy and reliability can even remotely compare with arms made in some other countries. Any purchaser is paying 2x-3x the proper cost, simply for the name and the braggin' rights associated with it.

Reminds me of Harley-Davidson motorcycles, they cost twice as much and go half as fast but folks still buy 'em for the name. BTW I like Harleys, got my first one in '67 but I sure wouldn't pay the new price for one today!

To compare your price to Gibbs or any other famous UK maker is like comparing apples to oranges, your product has no caveat and carries no braggin' rights with it YET, other than the price range and appearance.

I for one hope you succeed but I suggest that perhaps your costs are too high for a beginning effort. Your point about Bailey's value is very well taken, he's THE MAN these days!
Regards, Joe

Sounds like you may not own your own CNC machines. If true, this will definitely push your production costs way up and make it hard to compete with those makers who do.
Really, I don't see the fascination with CNC machining the underlever. Wouldn't a quality casting get you to just about the same result as far as finishing time but at a much lower production cost? After all, it isn't a force bearing component.

Joe, can you be more specific concerning the highend British rifles/guns you do not consider worth the prices asked for them and compare these with the ones from other nations which you think are superior?

There are SOME British firearms that, IMHO, ARE the finest of their type made anywhere and some are grossly overpriced, also, IMHO. I would be very interested in a detailed commentary on this issue, if you have the time and energy.

I do not consider ANY ONE nation to produce the "best" guns and am not overly awestruck by legendary "marques", however, a "droplock" Westley like the one I recently saw at a gunshow here simply takes my breat away and makes most other "carriage trade" guns I have seen look pretty crude by comparison. JMHO.

Dewey, I totally agree with your assessment of the W-R droplocks and wouldn't argue TOO much about their price. However, just to take one example, their plain boxlocks cost up to 80% of the droplock's cost and I wouldn't walk across the street for one in comparison to the droplock, IMO they're selling a $15K shotgun for $45K. Another example I've seen recently is a single shot from H&H that was priced AT LEAST 3X higher than the same action completed to a MUCH higher standard of fit and finish by another maker in another country.

I've owned guns by H&H, Rigby and Westley Richards as well as a few other older 'best' gunmakers (sorry no Purdeys or Bosses, grin) and, frankly, I can name several Western Hemisphere makers whose quality is far superior to anything I've seen coming out of the UK today, for far less than 1/2 the price. JMOFWIW.

For only one example of the difference in quality, compare the checkering of almost any high-grade UK gun to the checkering of some of the better NA makers.

There simply is NO comparison!

I for one would be VERY reluctant to admit that I paid $50K for a gun with a $300 checkering job, but apparently P.T. Barnum was right....
Regards, Joe

quote:

To compare your price to Gibbs or any other famous UK maker is like comparing apples to oranges, your product has no caveat and carries no braggin' rights with it YET, other than the price range and appearance.

Apologies JD, I meant to say internal hammer singles. I believe the fit and finish of my rifles is also a bragging right, as is the internal design, the balance, but none more so than the overall harmony of the lines of the whole piece. It's only my lowly opinion, but I haven't seen a rifle made by anyone that has better lines than mine in profile.

I don't want to be rude but if I understand you correctly, you are basically saying saying that my price is too high and that I have no right to charge what I am for my rifles because I don't have a name or reputation? So what do you expect me to do? Build what I know to be a single shot rifle in the "as good as it gets category" and sell it for a few grand? Less than what a good stick of Turkish sells for? In some sort of self effacing grovel past all the "expert" critics on forums? Thanks, but no thanks.
Are you suggesting that I lower my standards and make a rifle that competes price wise and quality wise with a Dakota model 10? Replace my underlever with a flat sided bent spoon handle? I think I'll pass on that too.

In the meantime show me the other rifle that looks like a genuine Gibbs Farquharson that you can buy. And then show me one that is better made, better designed and finished than mine. But until then I am not sure there is anyone on the planet that has the right to tell me how much my rifles should sell for.

Its the middle class and lower classes that have taken a thumping in this financial crisis. Why try and make a product that is aimed at them when there are so many others doing the same thing?

Mama might have raised a fool but she didnt raise a complete and utter idiot.

I don't consider that I am making simply a rifle. They are each and all works of art. I am not sure what it is but only rifles that have many, many hours of skilled and focussed labour poured into them that have "the magic". That "je ne sais quoi" of a high end piece. And my rifles have that in spades.

A very good friend of mine who is a single shot nut (who lives at the other end of the country) finally got to actually handle my own rifle the other day and he said to me that my rifles are one thing to see in a picture but they are something else to behold in the flesh. He didn't put it down for 3 hours. I had people on the stand at Reno fondling them for 30 - 45 minutes. I had a couple say things like - "you know I have some rifles in my safe that cost $30,000 and they aren't a patch on this."

You have got to have one in your hands before you can make a judgement by which you can stand.

Huvius, it's not just about the price of getting something cast (peanuts), it's about getting that casting to mate perfectly to its counterpart. And castings don't do that to the level of tolerance that my rifles are made to. Not even close. I think you must have missed the fact that the underlever is concave and the triggerguard convex with maybe a tho between the two surfaces. Any warpage and it's a battle to sort out. Guess what: castings warp, especially ones that vary in section, like my underlever.

Here's something to ponder. David Miller started making his laminated stocked winchester mod 70s in 300 weatherby approx 10- 15 years ago and they were $7,500. They are now $27,500. Has he upped the price so much because he isn't selling them?

My rifles at $14,500- they're a damn bargain.
Which is why I guess I got an order yesterday for three of them from one client.

Glenn

www.sorokarifle.com

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Wouldn't a quality casting get you to just about the same result as far as finishing time but at a much lower production cost? After all, it isn't a force bearing component.

Casting?

Huvius, if I were Torquemada, I would have you burned for such heresy!

Glenn, you have a perfect right to charge whatever you wish for your product! Believe me, I would be the LAST person to say any different!

However I do believe that your sales will be limited, quite limited, due to your costs. If you're comfortable with that, that's wonderful, and I sincerely wish you the best.

Re your intended market: most of the fellows I know who can afford such a price are interested primarily in the reputation of the maker, so that their brags are more recognizable to their peers. For many of these fellows, the rep (or 'caveat') of their possessions is perhaps even more important than the mere fact of their Conspicuous Consumption as demonstrated by a high price tag. After all, it's quite gauche to call attention to the cost, but in the case of a 'known name' the (excessive) cost is already implied to and inferred by the owner's audience.

IMO you're doing exactly the right thing by having Tom Turpin do a review. He's a known name and so a favorable review from him will go far toward beginning to establish your own product's caveat.

But if I were you I'd be investigating some alternatives to my truly prohibitive cost of production.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
Heres something to ponder. David Miller started making his laminated stocked winchester mod 70s in 300 weatherby approx 10- 15 years ago and they were $7,500. They are now $27,500. Has he upped the price so much because he isnt selling them?
Glenn

Let me be perfectly clear about my opinion on this. IMO anyone who pays THAT much for an inferior POS M70 in a plywood stock is a fool. I don't care how much money he has or has made, IMO he coulda gotten twice the rifle for half the price with his eyes closed. Perhaps even one of yours? So how bright is that?

It's pretty obvious to me that David and Curt have more marketing brains in their little fingers than any of their clients can muster in their entire organizations!

Follow their example and you too can profit from others' sheeplike stupidity. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

Is this a thread about snobbery?

I think its about sour grapes and jelousy ,do any of the knockers here, made an action and rifle themselves ? Rigby ,H and H etc were all New Firms once ,they havent been around for ever, and even if i could afford their guns would refuse to pay their exorbitant price .If i had the money i would have one or more of these and wouldnt look back .Soroka has taken the time, money, effort ,no doubts some setbacks but come up with Top Class Rifle which iam sure is worth every cent ,check the prices of English Guns back in the 20s etc and how much of there wages in those days cost .Col Allison wouldnt buy one unless it was top notch .Some of the gunsmiths in America charging $30 or $40 k for a bolt rifle youve got to be kidding me ,no way .would i pay that !

I know, I know...casting is a dirty word these days in gunmaking circles but in a way, every billet, bar, or plug was a casting at one point.
I was just thinking that a casting could be made to about 90% and THEN CNC machinery could do its work. That would cut milling time drastically and have no effect whatsoever as to what the final part looks like or how it fits. In fact, I bet there would be nobody who could tell just by looking at it.
As for warpage, any good foundry could cast an underlever without warpage. Once the pivot pin hole is located, all of the other machining can be based from there.
Or, I guess the general shape of the lever blank could be hydro/laser/plasma cut and then milled. That would work too but maybe that is what Soroka is doing already (?)

Also, there was some mention of falling blocks made by Holland and Holland. Even they haven't made their own action for, OH, about a hundred years...

It's not the roughing cuts that take the time. It's the final cuts that takes the time when a very fine step over is used on complex curves. Which is why say a Dakota underlever would be very fast to cut as it is flat sided on all sides. You could use a huge milling cutter and really rip into it and have it machined in no time, comparatively speaking.

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
It's not the roughing cuts that take the time. It's the final cuts that takes the time when a very fine step over is used on complex curves. Which is why say a Dakota underlever would be very fast to cut as it is flat sided on all sides. You could use a huge milling cutter and really rip into it and have it machined in no time, comparatively speaking.

True,...oh how true.

For example, I machine some of my actions final shape on my CNC mill. When programing, a surface is produced, and it serves as the reference for the toolpath. The toolpath can be set so the cutter basicly takes a slice of the surface and follows the contour of that slice. Taking .010" slices ( pretty rough final finish) takes my mill about 2hrs to cover the top of the action. So, to get a really nice machined finish, you need to take .0015" slices or smaller depending on how tight the curves are. Do the math, 15 to 20hrs for the top of the action only. Even at a bargain shop rate of $50 an hr, you can see how the cost would skyrocket.

To speed up this process, I use skills learned from my knifemaking career, mainly shaping parts on a belt grinder. My underlevers are profiled and the holes spotted on CNC, but are shaped on the grinder. Takes me less than 30 min to do this. My underlevers are much less complex than Glenn's though.

Martin Hagn would know a thing or two about what constitutes an high quality falling block.
He had a Soroka on his table[stocked by M.Hagn].
Having the competitions price similar product on your table indicates [to me]an acknowledgement of industry respect for the product.
There was another N.Z based guy a few years ago who displayed his M70/M98 type receiver at SCI. Built to the highest std using the best certified materials. like Soroka, he was new to the market. He received orders totaling 40+ receivers.[US$2.5K- 3K price range.]
Glenn, do you know Brian?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I saw it at the guild show this year